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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Sep 2011

Vol. 741 No. 4

Topical Issue Debate

Sentencing Policy

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this most important issue, which has been highlighted once again by recent events. I refer to the jailing and committing to prison of citizens and other residents in the State, many of whom are taxpayers, for the non-payment of fines and civil debt, and in cases of contempt of court. This process, about which there has been considerable discussion in the House over the years, must be brought to an end. It is outdated, Victorian and inhumane. It is a relic of bygone days on which we should look back with no pride. Charles Dickens's father was sent to Marshalsea Prison in the 19th century for the non-payment of a civil debt. At that time, the debtors court existed and it features in most of Dickens's novels. Regrettably, very little has changed since then. It needs to be changed and challenged.

As well as the inhumane treatment of persons by committing them to prison for not being able to pay a civil debt or perhaps for being in contempt of a court order, the committal to prison does nothing to remedy the problem. The cost factor should also be taken into consideration, having regard to our overcrowded prisons and the fact that it costs more than €100,000 per year to keep a person in prison. The average time spent by those committed to prison for failure to pay debt is approximately 30 days. The debt is not in any way purged and there is no benefit to society or the individual in any way.

This has been referred to in many expert reports in recent years, and I commend the work of the free legal aid centres in this regard. I commend in particular the work of prison chaplains and one whose work in this regard has been quite outstanding is Sr. Imelda Wickham, the co-ordinator of the prison chaplains. She stated prison chaplains have consistently called for alternative ways of dealing with unpaid debts: "At a time when prisons are overcrowded it is vital that alternatives be looked at. The penal system does not in any way improve the debt problem." She is absolutely correct.

Mr. Eoin Carroll, from the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice, is another expert in the field. He describes it, quite rightly, as a moral issue. Often, the most vulnerable and voiceless members of society, who during the boom years were encouraged to take out loans, are now in prison due to their inability to pay back these loans. We imprison hundreds of debtors on an annual basis at a massive cost and at a human cost also.

Prison should be for dangerous criminals and people who are a threat to communities. It should be for people who represent a threat to society. It should not be for people who cannot pay a civil debt. How can we possibly justify the State taking someone from his or her family home and lodging him or her in prison for an indefinite period of time at a cost to the taxpayer for a debt that is due and owing to a bank, the leaders of which walk free having plunged our country into severe economic crisis?

I want to raise the matter of my constituent, Teresa Treacy, and I know the Minister of State will not make reference to a particular case but this woman should be released and the State should immediately set about facilitating mediation with the ESB. It is cruel, inhumane, wrong and getting nowhere. This woman should not be in jail while criminals walk free. I urge the Minister of State to take appropriate action.

The Deputy will appreciate that I am not in a position to comment on any particular case that is before the courts and that the comments I have to make are about policy in the law at present, the recent changes that have been made and, in line with the programme for Government, the examination that is taking place in my Department with a view to improving the operation of the law where possible.

The commitments in the programme for Government regarding the alternatives to custody generally are that we will fully implement the Fines Act 2010 and extend the use of community service orders. Where a member of the Judiciary is considering the imposition of a prison sentence of one year or less, he or she will be required by legislation to consider first the appropriateness of community service orders as an alternative to imprisonment. We will end the practice of imprisoning people who cannot pay fines and debts and introduce a system which takes a small amount of money from wages or social welfare by "attachment order" to pay off a fine or debt over time, as an alternative to imprisonment for people who refuse to pay.

At the outset, it may be important to establish that, in a civil matter, a court is asked to adjudicate on a dispute between two or more parties. Such disputes can arise in cases of recovery of debt, including maintenance debt, performance of a contract, trespass and interference with property. These matters are determined by the courts on a daily basis. The court will make its decision on the basis of the facts involved and the rights of the parties. Such rights may be constitutional, statutory or common law rights or they may arise under the European Convention on Human Rights.

In deciding the matter, the court may order an appropriate remedy. This could involve payment of damages, restoration of the status quo or an injunction to either carry out an action or to desist from an action. The court does not have the power in civil cases to impose a custodial sentence as part of its remedy in favour of one of the parties. However, it is a critical feature of our legal system that court judgments should be obeyed by those to whom they are directed. If the person or persons concerned refuse to obey the order or implement the judgment of the court, then the issue of a court sanction may well arise. The sanction may take the form of imprisonment. Civil contempt in the context of such a refusal may lead the judge to order the imprisonment of the party or parties until the contempt is purged, that is, until the party agrees to implement or abide by the order. This imprisonment is not a punishment nor does it replace the necessity to comply with the order of the court. This misunderstanding of the situation has perhaps arisen most often in recent years in the context of actions by creditors to recover debts owed.

A particular concern in this regard was the very significant social requirement that maintenance orders made by the court should be respected. New legislation has been introduced on seeking to reduce the incidence of imprisonment with regard to non-payment of court orders for debt and maintenance payments. While the Debtors Act (Ireland) 1872 abolished imprisonment for debt, it permits the imprisonment of debtors who have the means to pay but refuse to or neglect to obey a court order in respect of the debt. However, the Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1926 to 2009 provide the District Court with jurisdiction to make instalment orders where a debtor has defaulted on the debt. The court directs the debtor to pay off the sum owed in fixed instalments over a set period. Where the debtor fails to comply with the terms of the instalment order, the Acts set out the circumstances where a person may be imprisoned.

Imprisonment only arises where a person fails to comply with the court order. The Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 introduced provisions to strengthen the existing provisions in the law for enforcement of orders of the court to pay maintenance. The Act addresses difficulties which have arisen consequent on the judgment of the High Court in the McCann case of 2009 concerning the enforcement of orders for the recovery of civil debt.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

The High Court found that the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940 lacked a number of necessary safeguards in circumstances where a person is at risk of imprisonment. Following this judgment, the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act 2009 inserted a series of amendments designed to protect debtors and impose obligations on the creditor. However, the Act of 2009 created some difficulties regarding the payment of maintenance arrears by spouses on foot of court orders. The Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 imposes a new regime whereby the law is based on the fact that the court has already deliberated on and determined an appropriate level of maintenance, and if the debtor breaches this order without a significant change in his or her circumstances, this breach will constitute a contempt of court.

The majority of the Fines Act 2010 has been commenced. Section 14, which was commenced last year, places an obligation on the court to take account of the defendant's financial circumstances before a fine is imposed. The definition of "financial circumstances" is very wide and includes, for example, the aggregate amount of the person's liabilities to provide financially for his or her family. It also includes the aggregate amount of moneys owed to the person, the date they fall due for payment and the likelihood of their being paid. As a result of this provision, no person can be sent to prison for default solely for the reason that he or she cannot afford to pay a fine.

Implementation work is continuing on two key sections of the Act. Section 15 provides for the payment of fines by instalment. There are a number of practical and technical issues required to commence this provision. As the House will appreciate, the current system of payment allows for only a single payment in respect of each fine to be made within a specified period, and this payment is recorded on the Courts Service IT system. In order to allow for a fine to be paid by instalments over a year, or in certain circumstances longer, as the Act provides, it is necessary for the IT system to be substantially modified to allow for the payment of instalments and to ensure that such instalments are accurately recorded and tracked. The Courts Service has put in place a structure to oversee the implementation of the necessary modifications. I am informed that, assuming the necessary funding is available, it will take approximately 12 months to complete the administrative and technical modifications required.

Section 16 of the 2010 Act will require a judge, consequent on determining that a fine is to be imposed, to make an order appointing an "approved person", commonly referred to as a receiver, to recover the fine in the event of default. Again, some IT enhancements will be necessary in order to allow for the electronic transfer of recovery orders and data exchange with the receivers. I am informed this work will take approximately six months to complete and will be done concurrently to that mentioned above.

The Fines Act 2010 also includes provision for the use of community service as a sanction where a receiver has been unable to recover a fine or its value in seized goods. These provisions will be commenced when the necessary arrangements have been made to implement the receiver or recovery order provisions. The work that has been done on implementation of the Fines Act 2010 is of relevance to the question generally on what can be done by way of alternatives to custodial sentences associated with civil cases, because similar considerations arise as to the practicalities of what is involved. In so far as the further commitments in the programme for Government are concerned on possible alternatives to custodial sentences in civil cases, I have asked my Department to carry out the necessary examination with a view to bringing forward practical proposals.

How can the Minister of State justify the imprisonment of anyone who stands committed of no crime, who is guilty of no criminal damage, who has paid all just debts and taxes and has been a law-abiding citizen over the years? How can she justify my constituent being imprisoned for 16 days, and that imprisonment continuing indefinitely? Is it possible for the Minister of State to facilitate a form of mediation or conciliation on the basis that the woman involved stands indicted of committing no crime in this jurisdiction?

As I stated at the outset, I do not intend to comment on individual cases and thankfully I do not have to justify the actions of any court. My job is to ensure that legislation as required is enacted. The criminal justice system has all types of mediation services, as the Deputy is probably far more aware than I am.

This is not a comment on the case in question, but I do not believe people are imprisoned for no just reason. We may need to mediate in particular instances and this case may be one of them. The Deputy has made the case well. It is something we will take on board but I cannot comment on, nor do I have to justify, any actions a court takes. We have a separation of powers between the State and the Judiciary which is important.

Does the Minister of State accept the fundamental, constitutional right under Bunreacht na hÉireann to property and property rights, to the quiet enjoyment of one's own land and property? I invite her to say that it is unsatisfactory in 2011 that we are committing people to prison who have been found guilty of no criminal wrong.

I am sorry, but there is no provision for a second intervention. I am acting under the Standing Order.

It is important to state that the separation of powers is something we hold dear. We should all uphold that.

Telecommunications Services

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for selecting this very topical issue for debate in the Chamber regarding the possibility of inserting a branching unit to Cork on a new tier 1 express cable or broadband cable which it is planned by an investment consortium to lay between the United States and the United Kingdom, and to Europe. In the coming days we have a chance to make a decision on whether the south west region can connect to this tier 1 cable which is significantly important for the future development of the economy not just in Cork but the entire region.

Tier 1 international connectivity in the southern part of the country would present all regional hubs along the Atlantic corridor and the south west region as serious candidate locations for data-centric companies, Internet players and financial services organisations as a European headquarters or back-up location for their presence in other European locations, while at the same time protecting and promoting the competitiveness of indigenous and multinational industry in regional areas.

Much progress has been made to date to advance the prospects of the new tier 1 connector via the Hibernia Atlantic cable which would significantly enhance connectivity, improve latency and reduce telecommunication costs along the Atlantic corridor and the south. To do business on the telecommunications side is far more expensive in the south of the country than in Dublin, for example, or along the Dublin to Derry corridor. That must be addressed.

The Cork Chamber of Commerce and Cork City Council through its director of services in the docklands fully support the project, as does Cork County Council. Connectivity would present a significant opportunity to this country. I am also aware of a second proposal to link Cork and Dublin with France and onwards to Germany and back to the United Kingdom in a European-British-Irish route. The correlation of those two lines could potentially make Cork a significant telecommunications hub for data control or storage. I hope the Minister will be supportive of progressing the two tier 1 connector projects into Cork.

Some of the companies that have been attracted to Cork through the IDA are significant global multinationals that have based their European headquarters in Cork. I refer to Pfizer, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline, Eli Lily, Schering-Plough, Stryker, Amazon, Centocor and Siemens as well as one of the most significant companies of all, EMC, and the Tyndall National Institute which are all located in Cork. If those two cables are connected then Cork could become the hub of interconnectivity for transatlantic traffic to all of Europe which would greatly enhance the capacity of companies to employ people in the greater Cork area.

There has not been much investment in this area by the State. In one case the company concerned is not looking for any funding from the State but is seeking State support through departmental assistance and significant administrative support. It would provide a competitive business environment in the south-western region, not just nationally where it is suffering but internationally where it is crucial to make progress. We have seen a company such as Dell decide to leave and go elsewhere in Europe without any regard for the communities and people who are left to suffer.

We must become more competitive and improve technology. I recall working in an old telephone exchange on the Beara Peninsula which had only four lines going out. Back then getting a telephone was a big issue. We have come a long way but we are still behind. The proposal to which I have referred is hugely significant.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the House on the important topic of international communications connectivity. I am also pleased to have the opportunity to highlight some of the factors that must be considered by the Government before any decisions to intervene in commercial markets can be taken.

I am well aware of the Hibernia Atlantic Express project raised by Deputy Harrington. I can inform him that my Department has met with Hibernia Atlantic in recent months. There was a clear understanding that the company was prepared to install a branching unit to allow a subsequent link up. In recent weeks Hibernia has advised that the company would no longer be prepared to discharge the costs involved. I am happy for the Department to engage with Hibernia to ensure that the option for international connectivity is protected if that is possible. I am advised that Hibernia understands the procedures that the Government must comply with, especially in circumstances where there is more than one potential applicant.

I would very much welcome any investment that would lead to improved international connectivity. Indeed, we have seen significant investments by various market players in recent years, all of which have added to our international connectivity capacity. It is important to note that the electronic communications market is, and has been since its liberalisation, a commercial competitive market. Accordingly, the State can only intervene in the market in limited circumstances, for example, where the market is failing to provide services. In such circumstances, the State intervention can only take place following state aid approval from the European Commission and a public tender procurement process.

In addition, any such assistance would have to demonstrate that value for money would occur. Accordingly, proposed projects are required to meet the tests of capital appraisal. Affordability is also a key consideration, particularly in the current acutely difficult fiscal climate. I do, nonetheless, recognise the importance of electronic communications infrastructure to national and regional economic development. As the Deputy indicated, Cork city has a significant presence of electronic communications infrastructure. I understand that there are well-advanced plans to roll out additional backhaul infrastructure and therefore address the issue of making the region even more competitive.

It is the case that a direct connection into Cork would enhance the region's attractiveness for foreign direct investment. However, the international connectivity market is, as already mentioned, a commercial market. Any proposed intervention would have to avoid distorting the market and avoid undermining investments made by other market players. While I would, of course, welcome additional international connectivity to the island from other countries, I understand that the existing network owners have significant capacity available. I am also aware that other consortia are in the process of planning transatlantic connectivity with connections to Ireland. I am grateful to Deputy Harrington for raising this important question.

I thank the Minister for his response. It is clear that significant issues are involved. There was a time-sensitive proposal. The underlying reason for raising the issue is for the Department to be proactive in attracting investment and facilitating where possible tier one connectivity to this country. We are an open economy and we need greater investment into tier 1 traffic, in particular for the southern region. I cannot emphasise enough that it costs more for companies in the south to do business in this sphere than it does for any other area of the country. That issue needs to be addressed.

I realise that I have been granted only four minutes to raise this matter. The Minister will appreciate that if I were to send this information through the transatlantic cable, the amount of data transmitted in that time would take 250 years to read out. That is the type of information deficit we have. It is a big potential for Ireland and a great need in the south-west region. I hope the Minister's Department will take that fully into account.

I understand the Deputy's argument very well. In recent weeks, I met with the chamber of commerce along with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Coveney, and other colleagues on this very subject. Yesterday, I answered a question from Deputy Ciarán Lynch on the same issue. My officials are anxious to engage with the company involved. Unfortunately, when Deputy Harrington talks about the proposal being time-sensitive, the company must appreciate that it cannot re-enter discussions with the Department to say that the previous understanding in respect of its willingness to discharge the cost of the installation of a branching unit has now changed, yet at the same time expect us to decide it in a matter of days. That cannot be done. There are procedures there, more especially where there is a second applicant, which there is. In those circumstances, we must be careful not just about issues like value for money, but also that we comply with the strictures applying to us. Other than that, I am entirely at one with Deputy Harrington.

Garda Stations

I acknowledge that the Minister for Justice and Equality is in the Chamber to hear this matter. Up to 200 Garda stations could possibly face closure after this year's budget as the Government seeks to cut funding. The Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, has asked chief superintendents around the country to draw up a list of stations that could be closed as the force prepares for Government cuts to its budget.

I am acutely aware, as every other representative here is, of the impact this could have on my own constituency and County Kerry generally. It is thought that the stations most likely to be closed are those manned by a single Garda officer in rural areas.

In recent years, many rural stations have had considerable resources put into them, including updating and remodelling, to make them suitable for the years ahead. It is unthinkable that those stations may possibly face closure, which would be an awful situation. It will be a further blow to rural Ireland. I am acutely aware of the impact this will have on the ground, particularly to elderly people living in rural locations. The loss of Garda stations is like what happened long ago when the railway tracks were torn up and the trains stopped running. That was a set-back to Ireland and is now readily acknowledged as having been wrong.

County Donegal is expected to see a significant amount of closures with up to 24 stations possibly being earmarked due to the number of small, part-time Garda stations there. There are 240 one-man Garda stations nationwide from a total of over 700. The proposed closures come at a time when the Garda Síochána are on the verge of a significant drop off in numbers. Membership within the force is facing a large fall as the retirement rate increases, combined with the suspension of Garda recruitment. Garda numbers have already fallen by 500 to about 14,000 and an estimated 1,200 members have 30 years of service and are entitled to take early retirement.

There is serious alarm across Donegal about possible Garda station closures. Local newspapers and other media have reported the story, as well as naming the locations involved. It all started because a report in The Irish Times which specifically mentioned 24 stations across County Donegal that had been put to the Garda Commissioner. I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Justice and Equality but I am not happy with the response. The Minister’s reply said he understood the Garda Commissioner is currently carrying out a review. Is it not correct that the Commissioner has been told to save money and make cutbacks? He has put this request to chief superintendents throughout the State and has got the identities of stations. The stations that have been publicly named in County Donegal are as follows: Carrick, Glencolumcille, Annagry, Burtonport, Creeslough, Dunfanaghy, Rathmullen, Ramelton, Pettigo, Churchill, Brockagh, Carrigans, Newtoncunningham, Raphoe, Convoy, Malin and Culdaff. Others have been mentioned also.

Across those communities there is serious concern, so I call on the Minister to state that no Garda stations will be closed in County Donegal under his watch. Fine Gael sets itself up as a law and order party. The Minister has met many delegations with chief superintendents to discuss crime in Donegal. Recently, we had a spate of arson attacks and burglaries. In addition, we have had road traffic incidents. Donegal is a difficult rural county to police. We have lost Garda officers as those who retired have not been replaced due to the recruitment moratorium. The Minister should state simply that no Garda stations will be closing in County Donegal. I urge him to do that now.

It is very refreshing to hear Sinn Féin's full support for the Garda Síochána. I am sure the force will be delighted to know it has the full support of that party, bearing in mind its conduct in the past.

The Minister should deal with the questions raised.

The Minister should address the issue, please.

I thank both Deputies for raising these matters. In particular, it provides me with an opportunity to address the position on the important topics that have been highlighted. The Deputies will be aware that under plans agreed by the previous Government — supported by Deputy Healy-Rae's father — it is part of the Government's obligation to comply with the terms of the EU-IMF agreement. Under the terms of that agreement, Garda numbers were to be reduced from 14,500 in 2010 to 13,500 by the end of this year, and by a further 500 to 13,000 by 2014.

This is a situation the Government has inherited and it is not of its own making, nor is the financial and fiscal disaster brought on the country by the previous Government. In the context of the framework within which we must operate, the reduction in Garda numbers is inextricably linked to the extremely difficult economic conditions which continue to face the country.

At the same time, I want to assure both Deputies, and the House generally, that it is a priority for the Government to maintain Garda front line services at the highest possible level. In the circumstances, it is entirely appropriate that the Garda Commissioner should carry out a review of An Garda Síochána's capacity to operate with reduced resources. The review to which the Deputies have referred remains incomplete.

The Commissioner has indicated that, in conjunction with his senior management team, the review is continuing to be undertaken. Additionally, he has confirmed that his primary focus in the review will be to ensure that Garda resources are managed and deployed in the most appropriate manner to meet existing and emerging policing requirements.

The Commissioner's review is examining all aspects of current policing, including the deployment of personnel, the utilisation of modern technologies and the operation of Garda stations. Clearly, an examination of the opening hours, and in some cases the viability, of stations form part of the review. These are important operational issues which must be addressed by those best placed to make informed decisions based on a professional assessment of how best to meet the policing needs of the country as a whole.

The closure of some Garda stations will be a question the Commissioner will have to address as part of the review process. In that connection he will have to consider whether, in appropriate cases, a better policing service could be delivered to a local community by having Garda members out on patrol rather than in a station. That being said, I wish to make it fully clear at this juncture that no decisions of any nature have been made in regard to the closure of any individual Garda stations, contrary to what has been suggested this afternoon. I am looking forward to receiving the Commissioner's proposals which will be directed towards maximising Garda efficiency as well as prioritising in difficult financial circumstances the resources available for operational front line policing.

In the context of the overall situation as detailed by both Deputies the crucial issue is that we maintain front-line services, that the resources provided to An Garda Síochána are used as efficiently as possible and that we maintain and continue to maintain law and order. I have the greatest respect for the efficiencies and capacities of the Garda to do so. It is worth noting in the context of reduced numbers that the reductions that must be effected by 2014 will return the Garda force to numbers as existed in 2006. No one suggested in 2006 that the force could not fulfil its obligations and duties and I have no doubt it will continue to do so. However, an assessment of how resources are to be used is a matter for the Garda Commissioner and I await the completion of the review and his recommendations and advice of the action he intends taking.

I thank the Minister. I mean this in the most respectful way but people's patience is running very thin when they see Ministers referring to the previous Government. That song is worn out at this stage and I ask the Minister and all his colleagues to give it up. They all wanted to be the Government and that is where they are now.

The Deputy has only 40 seconds for making a point.

Deputy Shatter is the Minister with responsibility for the Garda Síochána.

That is no use at all.

The Deputy kept them up for 14 years.

I respectfully ask the Minister to give an assurance——

Please allow the Deputy.

Kerry lost the all-Ireland as well.

——to the gardaí who are keeping law and order in these stations which are in place and which have been paid for. An investment has been made in these stations. It will not cost the sun, moon and stars to keep them open. Like my colleague, I have serious concerns when I hear talk of stations in places such as Barraduff, Kilgarvan, Lauragh and Beaufort, being closed. It would be a huge blow to rural Ireland. I respectfully ask the Minister to do his best to try to keep open every one of those stations. I really believe it would not save money to close them but it would be a retrograde step. I ask the Minister to please take on board the views of myself and my colleagues on this matter.

It is unfortunate the Minister has demeaned his office with cheap remarks. I can assure him that my reputation as a partner to the Garda Síochána in Donegal is second to none. I ask him to check with the Garda Commissioner and his colleagues as to my reputation in Donegal in that regard. I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them in confronting criminality in that county over recent years.

To deal with the issue at hand, I note the Minister has failed to make it clear that no Garda stations in Donegal will close under his watch. I appeal to him to take the opportunity to do so in this House. There are headlines across the county and I am receiving e-mails, as are his Government colleagues, from communities, from groups representing the elderly and from community watch groups who are deeply concerned about these suggestions. With a few words, the Minister could solve this problem now. I ask him to state categorically that he will not close any Garda stations and that he will not accept any closure of Garda stations in Donegal under his watch. That is the challenge. I plead with him to take up this challenge today.

I will conclude by saying clearly that neither Deputy has learned anything. Both of them engaged in what could best be described as the demeaning and discredited politics of yesteryear. It is very interesting to listen to both Deputies. I refer to the scare achieved by listing stations which are going to be closed in circumstances when no decision has yet been taken to close any station. I refer to the demand that I make a commitment that no station, regardless of circumstances, will ever close and that I should ignore reality. Let us, God forbid, not refer to the fact that the legacy of the previous Government was to put this State into receivership and to undermine the finances of the State and turn us into a dependency of the ECB and the IMF. Let us pretend this is not a reality. However, this is not the way the world works, unfortunately. For this State and for me as Minister to comply with obligations under the agreement concluded by the previous Government, which Deputy Healy Rae and his father supported, I have to find savings of €340 million in the Estimates for the Department of Justice and Equality between now and 2014.

The reality is we cannot be any more flaithiúil with taxpayers' money because we are actually spending the money being lent to us by the European Central Bank and the IMF. We have to get this State's economy back in order. The other reality is I have the utmost confidence in the Garda Commissioner and in An Garda Síochána to make the right decisions to provide the communities with the protections they require and to ensure that those who break the law are properly and fully investigated and brought before our courts.

I will not engage in a false piece of politicking or make false commitments which I am unable to keep. Every Department will have to find savings to meet our international financial obligations and to ensure that we keep this State afloat. The alternative, which the Deputies might have an enthusiasm for, is that this State is put into bankruptcy and taxpayers of this State are required to pay even higher taxes than is the case at present. Let us not pretend that we live in some political vacuum where Garda stations of themselves have a value. What has a value is an excellent modern responsive policing service and while I am Minister for Justice and Equality, that is what we will continue to have.

The Minister is also getting value in the rural Garda stations.

Rental Accommodation Scheme

I welcome the Minister to the House. The matter I raise is to do with the transferring of the administration of rental subsidies from the welfare officer to the local authority and which will cause many problems. A total of 48,000 families are on housing lists across the State and 100,000 families are on rental subsidies and in RAS, rental accommodation scheme. This is costing the State €500 million a year, which is a phenomenal sum. The local authorities face significant challenges as regards the administration of the scheme.

Many questions need to be answered. What effect will this transfer have on the role of HSE staff? Will staff be transferred to the local authorities or will the local authorities be allowed to recruit staff? It will be a major undertaking to handle such a large fund. The local authorities already deal with this money through RAS but a significant amount has not been administered by local authorities. Is there a facility under the Croke Park agreement to deal with a transfer of staff and to recruit new staff?

Families may only nominate one local authority and this will pose problems. The new rules for qualification for the housing list may mean that smaller families with sufficient room in a house may be removed from the housing list. That will pose a problem and we must scrutinise it. I would like to tease out the following questions. Will there be job losses when the local authorities take on this additional task? Will the local authorities be allowed to recruit more people? Will this happen over a period and when will it be in place? Will the Minister give us some idea of how this will work?

I thank Deputy Ellis for raising this important issue. He knows that for many years rent supplement has been used as a form of housing support for households who are unable to afford accommodation within the private housing market and for whom social housing is not yet available. Rent supplement, however, was designed as a short-term income support and its use as a long-term housing support has distorted both the social and private housing markets and has led to an employment trap for many households, particularly those with families.

Arising out of commitments in the programme for Government to review the operation of the rent supplement scheme, and in doing so attain better value for money, proposals to integrate the systems for providing rent supplement and social housing support are being advanced. The new housing policy statement published by my Department on 16 June 2011, signalled key reforms in housing policy, including the phased transfer of responsibility for meeting the housing needs of long-term rent supplement recipients from the community welfare service to the housing authorities.

The number of households who have been receiving rent supplement in the longer term is a shared concern of several Government colleagues. Together with the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose has already established a steering group to oversee the development of the project and a number of working groups have been established to address the wide range of complex issues arising. We need to ensure the transfer happens in the right way with issues like deduction of rental contributions at source being critical — but there is general agreement between all that the basic approach is a sound one.

The option being examined is the transfer of responsibilities for households in receipt of rent supplement, but who have an established long-term social housing need, from the Department of Social Protection to housing authorities. Rent supplement would continue to be paid by the Department of Social Protection to certain households. This would include those already in the private rented sector but who, because of a loss of income through unemployment, require a short-term income support to pay their rent. These applicants would not generally require an assessment of need and the expectation would be that a return to employment would obviate the requirement for long-term housing support. Thus, rent supplement would remain a short-term income support, as originally intended.

Subject to the successful conclusion of the work of the steering group, it is the intention to bring proposals to Government later in 2011. A date to begin implementing the new arrangements can then be formally agreed. The date set will allow time for the issues identified, including crucially the issue of deduction of rents at source from relevant welfare payments, to be properly resolved before implementation.

The Croke Park agreement allows for flexibility when community welfare officers from the Department of Health to the Department of Social Protection. There will be no job losses. This is about getting better value from the technology that is available in the Department of Social Protection and to get an understanding of the real requirements of people who are in receipt of rent supplement.

I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome this move. I have always felt that this was not an issue for the welfare officers of the HSE and that it was a matter for the local authority housing departments, albeit that some people will have short-term housing need.

I have an issue with families being on rent subsidy payment for six to eight years. Will we put in place rules to determine the length of time one can stay on rent subsidy payments? Originally we were told that rent subsidy payments would last for three to four years and then people would be housed. The period has been extended and in some cases people are in receipt of a rent subsidy payment for eight years. That does not make sense. I am glad to hear that there will be no job losses as staff can be transferred under the Croke Park agreement. Some of the staff in the local authorities feared they would be swamped with work and I am delighted to learn that this issue will be looked at. I will contribute as best I can when we next discuss this issue.

I thank Deputy Ellis for his constructive remarks and I am delighted that what we are trying to do is in keeping with what he has been advocating. We can use the available technology better to understand the real needs of individual applicants in the local authority area. We can use the information we have to help people who are in genuine need. This proposal to transfer responsibility to the housing authority for households who are in receipt of rent supplement but have a long-term housing need, represents a fundamental shift in the make-up of housing support. It is expected to benefit the households involved and the Exchequer. There is no doubt there will be saving because it might catch people in receipt of duplicate payments. That, however, is not the whole purpose of the initiative, rather it is to make the delivery of supports to the citizen better. When it is implemented I believe it will encourage job take-up by tenants who have been caught in poverty traps up to now. It will deliver greater value for money for the taxpayer and it will provide security of tenure and greater stability in the private rented market and contribute towards the creation of a higher quality private rented sector, through improved standards. In my view it will provide a better integrated and streamlined service for the citizen. I appreciate this is a complex issue and we are allowing a long lead in time. I have outlined the general principles of what the Government has in mind.

Are there plans to examine the length of time people should be in receipt of rent subsidy allowance payments?

We are considering that issue and it will form part of the Government decision.

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