Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2011

Vol. 743 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

The interdepartmental mortgage arrears group report is being published this morning by the Minister for Finance. I understand the report recommends an independent mortgage advice service to guide mortgage holders and, in addition, it also suggests the early introduction of new non-judicial arrangements and describes this as vital.

Yesterday in the House the Taoiseach indicated he would welcome constructive proposals on the issue. In the interests of offering practical urgent assistance to people in mortgage arrears and debt, Deputy Michael McGrath is publishing a Bill today, the debt settlement and mortgage resolution office Bill 2011. The Bill is ready to go and is based on the Law Reform Commission report of last December but extends its recommendations to include mortgages as well. It is a constructive proposal and has the merit of giving immediate implementation to a number of the recommendations that may or may not be contained in the report.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It is a pity Fianna Fáil did not do it last year.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We got no co-operation from the Labour Party. Deputy Stagg would not support us.

Deputy Michael McGrath

We got no support from the Labour party.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yesterday in the House the Taoiseach said he would welcome constructive proposals on an issue that is not a laughing matter or a matter for barracking but an issue that is of real concern to hundreds of thousands of people who are very worried about their mortgage arrears and household debt and who cannot see a future ahead of them.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Fianna Fáil created the situation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is also a significant drag on the economy, particularly the domestic economy. Deputy Michael McGrath's Bill would legislate for an independent debt settlement office, a statutory, objective office that would provide a mechanism to resolve household debt issues. I ask the Taoiseach to give the Bill serious consideration. It will be published today and taken next week in the House and I ask the Taoiseach to accept and move forward with its recommendations.

The Taoiseach

I commend Deputy Michael McGrath on his initiative in tabling a Bill on behalf of the party about a matter that is very serious. The Minister for Finance will publish the report on the mortgage situation today at 11 a.m. Yesterday I said that what I would like to see happen here is that every Member of the House would have the opportunity to make a contribution both on the mortgage report and, in this case, on the Deputy's Bill and also on any other initiatives, ideas or proposals that people have that are not currently in practice or contained in this report. I do not know if the Deputy has a leaked version of the report or if Deputy McGrath's Bill includes all of the measures that will be in it when it is published at 11 o'clock.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It was on "Morning Ireland" this morning.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It was all over the Sunday Independent.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Deputy Ciarán Lynch practically wrote it.

The Taoiseach

We are serious about the best possible response for those who cannot meet their mortgage repayments, with 800,000 mortgages in place and 100,000 having difficulties, and it is in respect of those that the commission looked at the question and made recommendations. I want to hear the response of all Deputies on the best solution. The Minister for Finance is giving everyone the opportunity to have their views expressed and will take all of those, including existing structures, the contents of the report and any other new ideas, and draw them all together and give a Government response. The Deputy will publish his Bill today but I do not know what is in it. There will be a two day debate next week on the mortgage report and taking that in conjunction with the Deputy's Bill, we can have a proper discussion of the situation facing so many people. I cannot second guess what might be in Deputy McGrath's Bill, no more than people can second guess the implications of the contents of the recommendations in the report. I assure the Deputy that the Government is taking this seriously and will act quickly. In the interests of everyone who sees constituents with such problems we should act swiftly and responsibly. I would like to hear the views of Members of all parties about this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Deputy Michael McGrath's Bill is based on the report of the Law Reform Commission of last December, which the Government has had for the last six to seven months. He has used that to craft a detailed Bill but has extended it to cover mortgages.

The Taoiseach asked if someone had access to a leaked report. With respect, the Keane report should be in every Member's in-box this morning before the formal launch at 11 o'clock.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

Why did the Taoiseach mention leaked then? There should not be any issue with leaking, it should have been given to every Member in advance of its publication.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Martin is a quare man to talk about publishing reports.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Two specific commitments were given in the programme for Government. It was stated that the negative equity generation would be assisted through enhanced mortgage interest relief.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Negative equity created by Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That was to happen in July but it did not happen. The Taoiseach also committed that interest increases arising from ECB interest rates would be absorbed by the banks, not mortgage holders. This has not happened and there have been two ECB increases. How quickly will the Government act on this report and how quickly will legislation be introduced as a result of this report to give relief to the 800,000 people the Taoiseach mentioned? We have the legislation ready and it is based on substantive work undertaken. In addition to what was done already, I would urge the Taoiseach not to be political about this like all his cheerleaders. He should be sensible and practical and enact this Bill.

Deputy Simon Harris

The negative equity generation was created by Fianna Fáil

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

If Fianna Fáil had not ruined the country there would be no need for this.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we cool down for a minute?

Deputy Simon Harris

We would not need legislation if Fianna Fáil had not caused the problem.

Deputy Micheál Martin

How many leaders does Fine Gael have?

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

At least we have a leader over here.

Deputy Robert Troy

Fine Gael did not want him a couple of years ago.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Donie Cassidy tells Deputy Troy everything.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is no laughing matter.

The Taoiseach

The Keane report came from a decision of the Economic Management Council, EMC, that a commission should look at the question of mortgage over-indebtedness here.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have no difficulty with that.

The Taoiseach

That is why it has been produced. I am not suggesting that leaked documents are being made available.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did suggest that.

The Taoiseach

I am merely suggesting to the Deputy that it is pure coincidence that Deputy McGrath produced and published his Bill today.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the Taoiseach saying he wrote the Bill last night?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin asked when the Government will act. Following the EMC recommendation, the Government commissioned the Keane report, which will be published in 20 minutes. The House will have a two-day debate on the report next week. I have already said the Minister for Finance will draw down all the recommendations and any other initiatives put forward by Members, and will act swiftly on them. The banks will have to play their part in this. The taxpayers have forked out to recapitalise these banks. In many cases people over-borrowed from banks and lending institutions and were over-lent to. Because of the economic decline and the impact of the recession, 100,000 mortgage holders now have difficulties. Some cannot pay, some have real struggles to pay and there are those who do not want to pay.

I want everyone to have an opportunity to say his or her piece on this matter and to put forward constructive suggestions that are in the interest of alleviating the problem for those who are suffering and are a cause of concern at present. It may be that Deputy McGrath's Bill, based on the Law Reform Commission's recommendations has something to offer. We will put that into the mix also. By next week we will have had a conclusive and comprehensive debate on this matter, allowing the Minister for Finance to respond swiftly and efficiently in the interest of those who are caught in this bind.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I ask the Taoiseach about media reports carried this morning which suggest the Government is planning a €1 billion cut in social welfare budget.

Deputy Joan Burton

Not at all.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I remind the Taoiseach that he made commitments not to introduce welfare cuts and I ask him to reiterate that commitment to the House.

I also ask the Taoiseach to address the issue of proposed cuts to rent supplement, which keeps a roof over 95,000 households. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do that the local authority housing stock is woefully inadequate and that any cut to rent supplement would cause huge difficulty and suffering to people who are also struggling.

The Government is keen to talk about social welfare fraud. What is meant is irregular payments, including departmental error. The Taoiseach might look at the extravagant salaries paid to special advisers to the Government which are sanctioned by the Government in breach of its own caps. One special adviser to the Minister for Social Protection is in receipt of a salary of €127,796. That payment was sanctioned by the Government and is in breach of the caps advanced by the Government. This is the same Government that is cooking up plans to slash the welfare budget.

The Taoiseach

The question is based on a prediction which is based on newspaper reports that the Government intends to cut €1 billion in the social protection budget. Sinn Féin are very good at predictions. They predicted that we would not be able to reverse the minimum wage decrease brought in by the previous Government and that the interest rate reduction would not be applied to Ireland.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

We predicted that the Taoiseach would not answer the question.

The Taoiseach

They made numerous predictions that were completely off the mark. Deputy McDonald speaks of irregularities. She would know something about that, I suppose.

The Government is involved in a comprehensive spending review of all Departments, and I mean all Departments. Every Minister will have to answer to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform before the Estimates are prepared for 2012 and the picture produced for the following three years.

The Deputy is, of course, aware that the country is in an economic bind, with constraints upon us. Those who are drawing social welfare payments legitimately do not want to see others in the system scamming it off. This causes considerable anger and resentment. I am sure the Deputy, in her next question, will agree that she does not want to see any social welfare fraud, in so far as it is preventable. That money comes from other taxpayers. People who are in the social protection payment area do not want to see that kind of carry-on when they are trying to get back to work.

The Deputy's comments are conjecture and are based on media reports. Everyone knows that every Department is going through this review. In due course, the Government will make known its decision. The decisions arising from the public expenditure review will be published before the budget. The Deputy will have an opportunity to give her views and her ideas as to how this can be moved forward.

I meet people all the time who are on social welfare lists. The job of Government is to balance the requirement of getting our deficit to 8.6% of GDP next year while providing a measure of confidence, hope and initiative for the indigenous economy and getting as many people as possible off the live register and back into the world of work.

The Deputy's comment, based on a newspaper report, is speculation. The Government will announce its own decisions when it has decided what it wants to do.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In the absence of the published comprehensive spending review and of the Taoiseach giving any affirmation to the House that he will not cut welfare, we are left with conjecture. I judge from the tone of his remarks that he is equivocating. He is not prepared to repeat his pre-election promise to protect welfare payments.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The sky might fall on Grafton Street.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

No one wishes to see any social welfare payment scammed, as the Taoiseach puts it. Equally, no one in this House, and certainly no Member of the Government parties, should cast aspersions on welfare recipients by constantly using the term "fraud" when the correct term is "irregular payments", whether the Taoiseach is comfortable with that or not.

Will the comprehensive spending review take account of the Minister's special adviser earning almost €130,000 per year? The rule book was thrown out the window in respect of that appointment. There is largesse for the Minister's adviser and cuts to very meagre social welfare payments. No one in this House is living on the basic social welfare payment of €187 per week. That is reality, from which the Taoiseach seems sadly divorced.

The Taoiseach

Deputy McDonald is a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, which has looked at irregular social welfare payments and fraud. I know the Deputy contributed to that debate. The Government is concerned about the level of unemployment in the country. We have been left with a mess, which means we must make a range of decisions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Can the Taoiseach tell us about the Minister's adviser? That person is in gainful employment.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Will the Deputy listen?

The Taoiseach

We will balance our requirements so we meet the conditions that have been signed on for and which we have renegotiated. That we are going to do. At the same time, the only way to deal with the level of unemployment we face is by a range of initiatives and confidence boosters to get people off the live register and into the world of work. The savings ratio in the country is exceptionally high because people do not have the confidence, which we would like them to have, to start spending. Before responding to the Deputy's specific question in regard to the individual mentioned, I must point out that the cost of advisers to the current Government is €800,000 less than it was in respect of the previous Government.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Is that all?

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not true.

The Taoiseach

The person whom Deputy MacDonald singled out for Sinn Féin treatment left the private sector on a salary of more than €200,000——

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Taoiseach still has not answered the question.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy should listen to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

——to take up a temporary contract as adviser to the Minister for Social Protection, which position carries a salary of €129,000.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Was that not by choice?

The Taoiseach

That is a drop in salary, which the Deputy could figure out if she subtracted €129,000 from €200,000.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

A nice one.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Our hearts are bleeding, Taoiseach.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

What a pay cut.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Is Deputy O'Dea still fighting for the Independents?

Deputy Shane Ross

The House will be aware of the imminent departure of the Secretary General at the Department of Finance, as announced last week. Is the Taoiseach prepared to explain to the House the circumstances in which this happened? Is this part of the policy which he enunciated prior to forming a Government to shake up the Civil Service and to make civil servants accountable for their actions, in particular those who were in charge or in pivotal positions at the time of the bank guarantee, the collapse of the economy and EU-IMF deal? The question that must be asked is did Mr. Cardiff jump or was he pushed. Was his departure a decision of Government or did he make it himself?

The departure of the Secretary General of the Department of Finance presents the Government with a great opportunity to make an inspired appointment. This vacancy is possibly the most important that will occur in the Civil Service during the lifetime of this Government.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Is Deputy Ross applying for the job?

Deputy Shane Ross

Can the Taoiseach give us an assurance that the process in this regard will be transparent and will include external interviewers rather than people from the Department of Finance? Can he also give us an assurance that people from the private sector will be considered for this job?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Is Deputy Ross interested?

Deputy Shane Ross

I would be based on the current pay scale, bonuses and pension provisions.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

We are running out of time.

Deputy Shane Ross

I would like to hear the Taoiseach's response to the following constructive suggestion. Will the Taoiseach, following the selection and appointment process, consider allowing the appointee to appear in public session before an Oireachtas committee, presumably, the Committee of Public Accounts — Mr. Cardiff will have to appear before MEPs when he goes to Europe — for questioning in regard to his or her qualifications so that people can be reassured that the Civil Service, in particular the Department of Finance which has not covered itself in glory recently, is accepting outsiders for appointment?

An Ceann Comhairle

Before calling on the Taoiseach to reply, I remind Deputies to be careful about mentioning individuals who are not here to defend themselves.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Hear, hear.

Deputy Niall Collins

It is a little late now.

An Ceann Comhairle

Remarks cast here could affect people's reputation. I am not suggesting that has been done here this morning. I ask people to be conscious of the fact that people are entitled to their reputation.

The Taoiseach

The Government has nominated Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Secretary General at the Department of Finance for appointment to the European Court of Auditors. Mr. Cardiff will attend at hearings of the European Parliament and will, presumably, following his success there take up his job in March 2012. Mr. Eoin O'Shea's term of office will expire in February 2012.

Mr. Cardiff carries with him a long career of distinguished public service here and the credentials to do a first class job in respect of the European Court of Auditors. I can assure Deputy Ross that the process followed in respect of appointment of Mr. Cardiff's successor will be an open TLAC process, internationally advertised with the interview board comprising of an external chairman with business experience and will be fully open and accountable in respect of the person to be appointed as Mr. Cardiff's successor. This is as Members would wish. This will be nothing like the recommendation made in 2004 by Deputy Ross following the appointment of Mr. Burrows to the Bank of Ireland, at which time the Deputy, in criticism of that appointment, suggested that Seán Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irish Bank would be far too dynamic for the role.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Deputy Ross should do himself a favour and stop while he is ahead.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Ross who has one minute to reply.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Does the Taoiseach have any more pages on that?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ross, please.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Members to settle down.

Deputy Shane Ross

Perhaps the Taoiseach will reply to my question.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Shane Ross

Will the Taoiseach respond positively to the suggestion that the nominee should appear before a public session meeting of an Oireachtas committee to be challenged on his or her qualifications for this particular job so that the public can be reassured as to his or her qualifications and that people appointed to key positions in the Civil Service are not appointed behind closed doors?

The Taoiseach

The Committee of Public Accounts is not an appointing body for persons such as this. The Deputy will be aware that Secretaries General are the Accounting Officers for Departments and appear on a regular basis before Oireachtas committees. When the TLAC process has been concluded and a person has been nominated, I, and I am sure the person who will be successful, will have no difficulty with him or her appearing before a committee to discuss his or her credentials for this particular job.

I believe that this is, as the Deputy correctly points out, an important position for the future. The person appointed will be heading up the Department of Finance at a time when Ireland is at a crossroads in terms of economic challenges, which requires that he or she be of outstanding quality. It is hoped that following completion of the process, including international advertising and structured interviews, the person appointed will have no difficulty attending at any committee to discuss the work of the Department of Finance and his or her credentials for the job, which will be necessary for the country anyway.