Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 2011

Vol. 746 No. 4

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Thousands of students and their families are marching to Leinster House today. Those students are deeply concerned about their future, about the Government's plans, its commitments and promises. They need answers and they need clarity. In advance of the general election the Tánaiste and his party made many commitments. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, brazenly went to Trinity College, four days before the election, to sign the USI pledge on fees, as did the Tánaiste. During the election campaign the Minister, Deputy Quinn, promised to reverse the €500 increase in the student services charge. The Labour Party was opposed, he said, to third level fees either by the front or back door.

The increase in the student contribution charge has not been reversed; in fact, the Minister will not even say whether or not it will be increased. To do so would be an act of deep cynicism by the Government.

A Deputy

Deputy Martin knows all about that.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does the Tánaiste agree it would be a very negative and retrograde step if the Government were to increase those charges, given the centrality of participation in third level education? What we witnessed in the last decade was a dramatic and significant expansion of third level participation and a transformation of the research landscape. If we are to achieve recovery we must maintain that.

The Minister, Deputy Quinn, would not comment yesterday on the third level fees issue in advance of the budget. However, he did say:

The politics of promises, if you like, in the present economic situation are such and are on a scale that I don't think any of us fully realise that no such promises can be given and any such promises would be misleading.

He said that yesterday, yet four days before the election he could sign any pledge students put before him. He can promise all he likes before an election but he cannot state clearly what he intends to do days in advance of a budget.

A Deputy

Hypocrisy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Fundamentally, the economic challenges facing the country are the same now as they were then. There is no difference, as the Government's fiscal plan of last Friday reveals.

Will the Tánaiste honour his promise to decrease the registration fee? Will he, once and for all, state openly and honestly whether the registration fee will be further increased and whether third level fees will be reintroduced?

The Tánaiste

Deputy Martin signed something himself, or if he did not sign it, his Government did. This time last year that Government entered into a memorandum of understanding with the troika.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Remember that?

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

One of the undertakings set out in that agreement was "ensuring a greater student contribution towards tertiary education". In other words, Deputy Martin's Government signed up to increased student charges.

Deputy Niall Collins

What about the agreement the Labour Party signed in regard to fees?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputies.

The Tánaiste

That is the legacy which Deputy Martin and his party left to this Government — an agreement with the troika that the overall student contribution to third level education would be increased.

I am acutely aware of the difficulties facing students and their families in regard to the cost of third level education. I am also acutely aware of how unemployment affects families and young graduates leaving college. Deputy Martin is wrong in claiming that economic circumstances are the same now as they were a year ago. They are significantly improved on what they were a year ago because this Government has taken action——

Deputy Timmy Dooley

They have improved because of the work we did.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

——to bring the economy forward.

The programme for Government commits to undertake a full review of third level funding with a view to introducing a funding system that provides third level institutions with reliable funding but which does not impact on access for students. The Higher Education Authority submitted a report on the sustainability of the existing funding framework for higher education to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, last Monday. The report examines the interrelationships between funding levels, the scale of growth and the maintenance of quality in the system. The Minister is considering that report. It will help to inform the consideration by Government of the policy options in respect of the funding of higher education. In regard to what may or may not be in the budget and the Estimates, that has yet to be finally determined by Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The troika report has allegedly been renegotiated twice by the Tánaiste and his Government. When our spokespeople met recently with the troika leaders, they informed us that the detail is a matter for the Government; their concern is that the bottom line remains intact.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Perhaps Deputy Martin was in bed when his Government signed the agreement. Willie says he knew nothing about it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Tánaiste is correct in saying that the fiscal situation has improved somewhat. That is because we took the tough decisions.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I asked the Tánaiste a simple question, namely, whether the Government intends to reverse the increase in the registration charge and to reintroduce third level fees. A simple "Yes" or "No" would be appreciated. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, said recently that he has no regrets in regard to he pledge he signed, which was done not on behalf of the new coalition Government but on behalf of the Labour Party. That is deeply dishonest politics. It is deeply cynical politics.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a supplementary question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It amounts to cheating students to win votes before an election. The Tánaiste has neither the guts nor the honesty to say on the floor of the House what he intends to do in the budget.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will he tell the students who are marching today whether the Government will decrease the student charge and whether fees will be reintroduced? A straight answer would be appreciated.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Martin spent 14 years in government.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no point in Deputies asking a question if they do not listen to the answer.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are not getting an answer.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy is not getting the answer he wants.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must settle down and allow other Members to speak. I call for quiet on both sides of the House.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy must have learned in those 14 years that no Government is going to announce matters which are appropriate to the budget in advance of the budget. What is done in respect of student fees, student registration charges——

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The same as with the Army barracks.

The Tánaiste

——and the details of the funding of third level education is not something I will announce today in advance of the budget as the Deputy well knows.

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, I do not. They have been announced.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is grandstanding——

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Tánaiste spent a lot of time at it when he was on the other side of the House.

The Tánaiste

——and claiming that he is looking for these answers when he knows very well——

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Tánaiste signed a pledge.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government has announced a fiscal plan and a capital programme.

The Tánaiste

——that we will not give answers to the detail of what will be in the budget in advance of budget day.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government has broken every commitment it made. We were told it would be Frankfurt's way or Labour's way, but Columb Barracks in Mullingar is to close. It goes on.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy can be assured of this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Mortgages, third level fees——

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

Any commitment——

Deputy Micheál Martin

There have been five-tonne whoppers.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Roscommon hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please——

The Tánaiste

The political commitments into which the Labour Party entered will be honoured.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Mallow hospital.

The Tánaiste

We need to work our way out of the programme with which Fianna Fáil saddled us before we got into government.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Government renegotiated it twice and the Government parties knew about it in advance of the general election.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Ní raibh freagra ar bith ón Tánaiste ar an cheist seo. An aontaíonn sé go bhfuil nasc idir fáil ar oideachas agus saoirse na ndaoine? An aontaíonn sé leis an méid a dúirt Thomas Davis, "Educate that you may be free."? Má aontaíonn sé leis sin, an dtacaíonn sé leis an cheart bhunúsach gur cóir go mbeidh fáil ar oideachas ag gach saoránach? Labour's election manifesto stated: "We refuse to go back to the days when only the relatively wealthy could count on going to university or when a family could only afford to send one of their children to college." In the days before the general election the Tánaiste famously signed a pledge, pledging to oppose the reintroduction of fees. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, was photographed signing the same pledge. Is this worth anything? Is this just another broken promise by the Government to add to the ever-growing list? Third level high quality education is a vital prerequisite to kick-starting economic recovery. Access to education should also be the right of every citizen. The existence or absence of this right is an indicator of the type of society we have. Does the Tánaiste accept that any increase in college fees or additional cuts in student supports will ensure that third level education is not an option for thousands of young people in the State?

Deputy Michael Creed

What about the school in Dunmurry?

The Tánaiste

I agree that third level is very important both for the individuals who benefit from it and for our economic recovery. That is why in the capital programme announced last week the Government has front-loaded projects that provide for the building of schools and the improvement of our education system. The Government is acutely aware of the difficulties many families have in financing their children through education. Some 44% of students in the State do not pay either tuition fees or registration fees because they are in receipt of grants. The remainder of students do not pay tuition fees and there is a registration fee. I contrast that with the situation in Northern Ireland where the Deputy's party is in government. The student fee for a student in Queen's University is €3,837. Given all the Deputy has said, including his quoting of Thomas Davis, with which I agree, can he explain why it is acceptable to charge a student in Belfast €3,837 and he is complaining about the student registration charged down here which is approximately half of that amount?

Deputy Tom Hayes

What does Deputy Adams have to say about that?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The Tánaiste should honour his pledge.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

The students in the North will be delighted that the Tánaiste is interested in their welfare.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

There has been no increase in student fees in the North and there will not be any increase in student fees in the North.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Tánaiste said that he agreed with what I outlined in my question. If there is consistency in the Labour Party, if he agrees with what I outlined, he should make it clear that there will not be any increase in college fees and there will not be any additional cuts in student supports.

Deputy Tom Hayes

What is Deputy Adams's position?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Also——

Deputy Seamus Healy

What is Deputy Tom Hayes's position on Kickham Barracks?

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputy Tom Hayes should tell us about Clonmel.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ignore barracking and just keep——

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is impossible even to hear myself talking.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Why is the Government planning to abolish financial support for postgraduate students from next year? Why is it continuing to strip special needs assistants from children who need them? Why is the Government planning on taking up to 2,000 teaching posts out of the system in the budget? Instead of playing a little game of tit for tat on this issue, why does the Tánaiste not just spell out why he does not honour pledges? Why are pledges so important before an election if, after an election, they can be torn up? If the Government does not honour the pledge that the Tánaiste and the Minister, Deputy Quinn, signed, can we expect them to follow the example of Deputy Penrose and stand by their principles?

The Tánaiste

Student fees here would need to increase considerably before they would reach what they are in Northern Ireland under the Administration in which the Deputy's party participates.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy has listed off a number of things about which he has read in the newspapers.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I have not read about special needs in the newspapers; I see the problem in my constituency every day.

The Tánaiste

Surely Deputy Adams, of all people, knows better than to believe everything he reads in the newspapers.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I read about the pledge in the newspapers.

The Tánaiste

There is speculation over what may or may not be in the budget and we will have to see about that in the course of time.

Deputy Gerry Adams

There is no speculation about the Tánaiste's pledge.

The Tánaiste

Let us be absolutely clear about this. The Government is committed to supporting education as was reflected quite clearly in the part of the budgetary process that has already been made public in which we clearly indicated our commitment to the education system through the provision of funding for additional schools to meet the needs of children for school extensions and for the capital programme in our educational system. The Government's continuing commitment to education will be reflected in the budget. It will be done within the constraints under which we must operate, but there can be no doubt about the Government's commitment to education and doing the very best for the education system and for our children and students given the difficult economic circumstances we have inherited.

Deputy Shane Ross

I contrast the Government's actions with its words on two issues. When it came into power, the Government handed over political and economic clout where it should have retained it and in another area it retained political power where it should have handed it over. It handed it over on the issue of the EU and the IMF, on which we have sacrificed our sovereignty. However, it retained it where it promised it would hand it over, which is on the issue of political patronage.

The promises made by both parties in power during the general election campaign about an end to cronyism completely evaporated in the programme for Government. I do not know why they evaporated, but they did and we need an explanation. Recent reports indicate that the spoils of war have just moved from this side of the House to the other and there has been little change. Twenty recent appointments to semi-State bodies have been given to people closely linked to Fine Gael and Labour. Five out of six judges have similar links and it is no coincidence. It is also no coincidence, having been a Member of the Houses for some time, that I know an enormous number of the people who have been appointed, not because of their merit or the commercial atmosphere but because they have political connections which involve them in interactions with me and other Members of the Houses.

The system set up by the Government, which was to encourage and invite public applications for appointment to semi-State bodies, appears at this stage to be a sham because the Minister in charge has the power to make an appointment and does not have to take any notice of the applications or recommendations made to him or her.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please. We are over time.

Deputy Shane Ross

That particular process is, in some cases, being bypassed. Can the Tánaiste, who said these appointments would be made on merit, assure me that a new, transparent system, which will remove these appointees from their political masters so that this does not become a Tweedledum Tweedledee situation, will be put in place?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. I call the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Ross is wrong. The Government did not hand over power on economic matters to the troika of the European Commission, ECB and the IMF.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

It inherited an agreement made by the previous Government, which agreement is working. Deputy Ross is well aware that we have succeeded in renegotiating significant elements of that agreement. The work which the Taoiseach is doing today in his discussions with Chancellor Merkel is with a view to our securing continued renegotiation of the terms of that agreement and getting a better deal for Ireland in the future.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Perhaps he could renegotiate the third level fees issue.

The Tánaiste

With regard to changes by the Government in respect of appointments, the Government has changed the Top Level Appointments Commission, has appointed an independent chairperson and has brought in people from the private sector to be part of the Top Level Appointments Commission which is responsible for the majority of senior appointments in the Civil Service.

We have introduced a system whereby any person can make application or express an interest in appointment to a State board.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

They must first join the Labour Party or Fine Gael and do a little canvassing.

The Tánaiste

Through their websites, the Departments invite expressions of interest——

Deputy Colm Keaveney

We first telephone Deputy Kelleher.

The Tánaiste

——for appointment to State boards. In addition, we have introduced a system whereby the chairpersons of State boards appear before an Oireachtas committee.

Deputy Barry Cowen

After they are appointed.

The Tánaiste

I understand that to date, five chairpersons of State boards have appeared before Oireachtas committees.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The committees cannot object to appointments.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ross has asked a question and is entitled to hear the reply. I ask Members to remain quiet.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

All of the appointments by Government to State bodies have been appointments based on merit. The Government will continue to work to ensure we get the best possible people to participate in the work of State bodies. Ultimately, however, the decision on appointment to State bodies and boards is a matter for Government. The Government will exercise that power and will stand over decisions made by it in that regard.

Deputy Shane Ross

I thank the Tánaiste for his response. The problem is that appointments under the new system continue to be former Fine Gael Deputies and candidates and people closely attached to the Labour Party who do not make that declaration when appointed to their positions.

It is important that the system is transparent and that there is a declaration. The system must not be a sham. The current system is cosmetic. Ministers are in many cases advertising positions but once replies have been received and recommendations made he or she can ignore——

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

What about quantum research?

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Shane Ross

——the advertisements.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

What about quantum research?

Deputy Shane Ross

What does the Tánaiste intend to do to ensure that the loyalties of political appointees to parties are made transparent to those making the appointments?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Can Deputy Buttimer answer that question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Tánaiste.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy is too independent.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called the Tánaiste, not Deputy Durkan.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Deputy Mattie McGrath needs to take it easy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Deputy Durkan needs to take it easy.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Ross is a former Fine Gael public representative.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Fadó fadó.

Deputy Dara Calleary

There have been a few exits from the Labour Party too.

The Tánaiste

That does not compromise his independence here nor does it, I presume, compromise his independence in writing for a Sunday newspaper.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

That a person has or has had an association with a political party does not disqualify him or her from appointment to State boards.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is a requirement.

The Tánaiste

The Government has already put in place significant changes in regard to appointments in respect of the Top Level Appointments Commission on the question of chairpersons, in terms of their independence and private sector involvement. Also chairpersons must appear before Oireachtas Committees——

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Window dressing.

Deputy Dara Calleary

After they have been appointed.

The Tánaiste

In respect of the appointments of individual members of State boards and the creation of a system whereby any person can make application or express an interest in being appointed, the Government is continuing to work on that process and will, in due course, bring forward additional measures to ensure appointments to State boards are more accessible to a wider range of people——

Deputy Mattie McGrath

All of the positions will have been filled by then.

The Tánaiste

——and to ensure we have a wider pool of people who wish to participate in State boards.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

If Deputy Ross would like to have a word with me later, I will see what I can do.

Deputy Shane Ross

A few appointments were made in the past couple of days.