Topical Issue Debate

EU Directives

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on this extremely important matter. I welcome the presence of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton.

I am troubled and deeply concerned that the EU agency workers directive is due to enter into Irish law on Monday, 5 December. I am disappointed by the lack of debate in the House and media on the potential impact of the directive. As the Minister will be aware, the directive gives all agency workers the same benefits as direct employees from the first day of employment. Businesses do not have much information on what implementation will mean for them. How will the term "benefits" be defined? Do benefits include sick pay and holiday pay? The lack of clarity on such matters will have a considerable impact on businesses.

Before the directive was implemented in Britain and Northern Ireland on 1 October a 12 week qualifying period or derogation was agreed between employers and trade unions. A consultation period of six months also preceded implementation in the UK and the legislation was amended during this period. An extension to the 5 December deadline is required to provide sufficient time of the detail of the legislation to be worked out. We also need a derogation, which the European Union will provide if it is agreed by the social partners. I understand that while some discussions have taken place among the social partners, the trade unions are reluctant to agree a derogation. It is crucial that we obtain a derogation if we are to secure employment and investment.

Agency staff form a key part of multinationals' employment model. It is estimated that approximately 35,000 agency workers are employed in this country. Their use provides a degree of flexibility for struggling businesses which cannot commit to recruiting full-time employees or provide seasonal work. In County Kildare, for instance, we have a successful indigenous food company whose work is extremely seasonal. Although it has little work available in April, May and June, in recent years it has secured large contracts in July and August and hired 180 temporary agency staff to fulfil them. The company provides good employment while the agency looks after staff well and pays a rate that is above the minimum wage. This degree of employment flexibility suits many staff. The head of the company in question informed me the directive will cost him money and result in the company losing export contracts. The potential impact of the directive is extremely serious. The State is one of the largest employers of agency staff. The potential impact of the directive on the Health Service Executive is staggering, with the estimated cost to the HSE, if the directive is implemented in its current form, in excess of €30 million.

What progress has been made in discussions between the social partners on achieving a derogation? I urge the Minister to do everything in his power to ensure agreement is reached on a derogation before the legislation is implemented. We must seek an extension of the 5 December deadline to give us more time.

While no one in the House is in favour of the exploitation of workers, the simple question is whether the directive will enhance or disimprove Irish employment figures. On a day when we learned the unemployment rate has increased, I note that no one, including trade union representatives, has argued that the directive will improve job numbers or competitiveness. I look forward to the Minister's response and urge him to engage with the trade unions and apply the greatest possible pressure to agree a derogation.

Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I thank Deputy Heydon for raising this issue. As he will be aware, the EU directive on temporary agency work is due to be transposed into Irish law by 5 December 2011. A central aim of the directive is to ensure protection of temporary agency workers by applying the principle of equal treatment in their basic working and employment conditions. My Department initiated a public consultation on the national transposition of the directive in October 2010. Observations were provided by a number of key stakeholders and other interested parties. These views were complemented by follow-up consultations and bilateral meetings to elaborate further on the position of the interested parties, which help fully inform the preparation and development of the draft legislation. Government approval for the draft scheme of the Bill to give effect to the EU directive in Irish law was obtained in October. The Office of the Parliamentary Counsel is proceeding with urgency with the drafting of the Bill. It is my intention that the Bill will be published as soon as possible in December 2011. Certain discretions and derogations are available to member states under the directive. A key feature of the directive is that it provides for the possibility of the social partners at national level concluding an agreement that would allow for some variation in the application of the equal treatment principle, while respecting the necessary protections to be afforded to agency workers under the terms of the directive. This is intended to highlight the role of the social partners so that rules can be tailored as closely as possible to the interests and needs of the parties concerned.

In tandem with the preparation of the necessary legislation to give effect to the directive, my Department has been engaged in discussions with IBEC and ICTU, with the objective of facilitating agreement on the conclusion of a framework agreement under the terms of a derogation provided under Article 5.4 of the directive. This would allow for a qualifying period before the principle of equal treatment would apply to agency workers in Ireland. It would place us in a similar position to the UK and Northern Ireland, which have already obtained agreement on a 12-week qualifying period. In the absence of a framework agreement, the default position is that equal treatment will apply from the first day of the assignment of the agency worker to the hirer undertaking. I have facilitated discussions with the national social partners with the objective of concluding a framework agreement that would allow for a qualifying period. Officials in my Department have been engaged in a process of teasing out the prospects for securing agreement. No agreement on this issue has been reached to date.

In light of the imminence of the date on which the directive is due to be transposed, there are considerable time pressures to conclude these discussions. The Government, as a significant employer, has a substantial interest in ensuring that a qualifying period is put in place before equal treatment comes into play for temporary agency workers. Agency workers represent a significant and important part of the workforce in the health sector, for instance. In the context of the current moratorium on direct recruitment, the HSE is able to use agency workers in a flexible manner to respond to staff shortages. In the current challenging economic circumstances, every effort must be made by all parties to boost the means by which economic recovery can be achieved and employment can be maintained and grown. A derogation allowing for a waiting period would allow for the necessary leeway in terms of labour market flexibility. It would ensure the labour market conditions in this jurisdiction are in line with those in Northern Ireland and the UK.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Minister for his response. I feel extremely passionately about this issue. I have been pursuing it for a number of months. I wrote to the unions but the responses I received were quite alarming. When David Begg of ICTU responded to me, he said he had been told by representatives of the TUC in the UK that this measure has had no employment implications there. It should be mentioned that there have been no employment implications there to date because the UK is still within its derogation period. This will come to a head when the 12-week period, which began on 1 October, has expired. The president of SIPTU, Jack O'Connor, said in response to my correspondence that agency contracts facilitate exploitation and misery. I do not know what world Jack O'Connor is living in. I think he is living in a different country from me.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

He is lives in the Deputy's own county of Kildare.

Deputy Martin Heydon

His reference to exploitation and misery is a bit extreme for me. The unions have claimed that my concerns are misplaced. I do not think their statements can be backed up. The simple fact is they are playing Russian roulette with the agency workers directive in order to push their own agenda. They are raising issues like collective bargaining and joint labour committees to argue a point as part of another fight. The directive is too important to be messing with. The unions are being absolutely reckless on this matter. They need to face up to the implications of this directive if a derogation is not agreed. One of those implications is that it will be more expensive to do business in this country. It will increase the expense incurred by the State and it will have a direct impact on jobs. There is a responsibility on the unions. I call on them to be responsible and to agree a derogation that is at least in line with what has been done in the UK. That is needed for the good of the country.

Deputy Richard Bruton

What is unique about this directive is that responsibility for concluding an agreement rests with the social partners, rather than with the Government. The two sides need to come together and reach an agreement. It would be better for us to have a waiting period like that in the UK and Northern Ireland. It would allow us to protect employment at a difficult time. I urge the social partners to consider carefully the adverse implications of any failure for each agreement. It would be appropriate if we could conclude an agreement like that in the UK and Northern Ireland. I will have further discussions with the social partners after this debate concludes, in the hope that some agreement can be reached.

Health Service Allowances

Deputy Colm Keaveney

As the Minister of State is aware, thousands of HSE staff are facing delays in the payment of travel and subsistence expenses that were due to be paid before Christmas. Staff across the HSE were advised last night that as part of the HSE's efforts to save €15 million before the end of the year, they will not receive their travel and subsistence payments for October and November until the new year. The Minister of State will appreciate that workers are angry about this plan and have criticised the HSE strongly. In effect, workers are being forced to bankroll or subsidise the HSE for the delivery of public services. I welcome the public statement made by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, on "Prime Time" last night. He categorically stated that the budget should not be used an opportunity to take money from people's pockets. He said the HSE should honour its contractual arrangements to pay suppliers and its own staff.

I am concerned about the tone of the letter that was sent to HSE staff and the language that was used in it. The HSE said in the letter that it intends to defer some of its costs by delaying these payments until 2012 "at the earliest". It is important for the Minister of State to be aware of the anxiety that exists among people. Many rural Deputies, in particular, have been advised that there is great concern about the delivery of primary, community and continuing care services in rural Ireland. Those providing home help services and public health nurses are among those who are banking on the payment of these allowances to ensure they can make their mortgage payments for December or put food on the table for their children this Christmas. I ask the Minister of State to intervene immediately so we can advise these concerned people of the response of the HSE.

Deputy Gerald Nash

The Minister of State is aware that public servants have been bashed in this House in recent years. When a major public sector entity like the HSE picks the pockets of its own staff, in effect, it is clear that a new low has been reached. If the HSE has its way, those providing home help services, public health nurses, social workers and others who assist the most vulnerable sectors of the community will have to subsidise their employer, in effect. That is not an effective way to run an organisation. It is no way to operate the health service. The HSE, which has been referred to in this House and elsewhere as a dysfunctional organisation, made a bizarre intervention yesterday. I do not think the health service has been well served by the HSE's actions with regard to expenses that were legitimately incurred by people as they served the public interest. Like Deputy Keaveney, I have heard the public comments that have been made by the Minister for Health last night and by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform today. As a result of the Minister's remarks, it can safely be said that the Government does not support the HSE's approach. What can the Government do to address this matter and to provide a resolution? What steps are being taken by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Department of Health to resolve this matter in the interests of workers who have legitimately claimed expenses in respect of services provided in October and November? It could be argued that their contracts have been breached.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Róisín Shortall)

I thank Deputies Nash and Keaveney for raising this issue. It provides me with an opportunity to update the House on this matter.

The Health Service Executive informed staff and their representative bodies yesterday that it had decided to defer the payment of further staff travel and subsistence claims until January 2012. A sum of approximately €15 million is involved. The €15 million of potential savings relates largely to the expenses incurred during the last quarter of 2011. The executive has undertaken to meet with the relevant unions to discuss the issue, including how any hardship cases that might arise may best be addressed. The HSE intends to pay outstanding travel expenses in January 2012. This action by the HSE must be seen in the context of a possible full-year deficit of approximately €300 million.

However, notwithstanding the gravity of the HSE's financial situation, the Minister for Health and I do not agree with the approach taken by the executive. While several proposals, including this one regarding travel and subsistence payments were submitted for consideration, the executive's board has not approved this approach.

The Department of Health has been in contact at the highest level with the HSE on this matter and has already been in close discussions with the executive over recent months on how the deficit can be addressed. The Minister for Health has repeatedly said the HSE must live within its budget. However, he cannot accept measures to effect budgetary savings which involve a simple refusal to pay staff what they are owed. Such a move is unacceptable. The HSE must comply with the requirements of the public financial procedures. This means it should meet its matured liabilities, which include travel expenses when they are due for payment.

There are several measures being taken that should greatly assist the HSE in achieving a balanced Vote at the end of this year. These include putting forward a Supplementary Estimate for the executive. The details of this are being finalised and it will include provision for a €58 million shortfall in respect of the early retirement and voluntary redundancy schemes implemented at the end of last year. The Government is also considering allocating savings from the health and children Vote, Vote 39, to the HSE.

It should be noted the HSE statement included a commitment that it would keep the matter under review in the light of its cash position at the end of the year. I am, therefore, confident that with the actions taken by the Government and the measures undertaken by the HSE this matter can be resolved. In the meantime, it is essential staff continue to carry out their duties as normal to provide essential services in the community.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

I thank the Minister of State for her positive response. I am concerned, however, by the degree of subterfuge adopted by the HSE and the games it is playing with the Government with regard to the imminent changes to the executive.

Would the Minister of State mind if I pointed her in the direction of where the HSE could find some of the moneys? An information note on HSE West, sought by a Labour councillor, stated its overall deficit by 30 June 2011 stood at €47.3 million. However, on the same date the total amount owed to HSE West by private health insurers, such as VHI and BUPA, was €61.1 million, of which €13.5 million was over 12 months old. After 12 months, an accounting procedure will write off 50% of all arrears. Public services are being delivered and subsidised by ordinary working people in the executive. The HSE has much to answer in this regard.

In her investigation into this matter, will the Minister of State establish why are the bad debts of private health insurers provided for when ordinary working people in the HSE have to bankroll the organisation, particularly coming into a difficult time for many families?

Deputy Gerald Nash

This case illustrates the dysfunctional nature of the HSE. We have heard commitments from the Minister regarding transformational reforms of the organisation. Dare I say it, we must be careful with what we replace it.

It is worrying that the Accounting Officers and the executive's board were not aware of this treatment of its own staff in HSE West when dealing with a budgetary shortfall. This is more of evidence that the HSE needs to be abolished, sooner rather than later.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The HSE must live within its budget. It undertakes to provide a quantum of service based on the allocation made. It has been made very clear to the HSE that it must bring these services in on budget by the end of the year.

I agree with Deputy Keaveney's point on the HSE's potential to deal with its current difficulties in another manner. There are several examples of where the HSE could ensure more timely payment of moneys owed to it. The question of delayed payments by private health insurers has been raised on several occasions. It is hard to understand, however, the tardiness of the HSE in pursuing those moneys owed.

There are other options for balancing the books at the end of the year. It is unacceptable the HSE should seek to penalise staff due to be paid for travel-for-work purposes by paying them later. The approach taken by the HSE is neither acceptable to me nor the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly. I am confident this matter can be resolved satisfactorily, however.

Hospital Services

Deputy Dara Calleary

St. Joseph's District Hospital, Ballina, County Mayo, a 62-bed hospital, provides step-down facilities for patients discharged from Mayo General Hospital and those identified as requiring a long-stay bed in a community nursing unit. It also provides outpatient clinics such as surgical, medical, paediatric and orthopaedic services.

Staff have been informally informed that there may be substantial bed closures in the hospital in the new year. If these go ahead, the ability of the hospital to perform will be seriously undermined. Mayo General Hospital performs well on the basis of a good relationship with district hospitals in Ballina, Swinford and Belmullet and their capacity to deal with step-down facilities. Its performance is in direct contrast to that of the regional hospital, University College Hospital, Galway, where bed management issues are serious.

Up to 60 beds have been closed in Dalton community nursing unit, Claremorris, Áras Deirbhile, Belmullet, MacBride community unit, Westport, and at St. Augustine's, the other community nursing unit in Ballina. There is a concern in the county that services for the elderly are being downgraded and people will be forced into the private nursing home market.

Due to a large number of retirements that will occur in the health services, management has proposed a temporary closure of the facilities in St. Joseph's District Hospital. We all know what a temporary closure is in HSE language. Deputy Keaveney referred to €61 million being owed to HSE West. We have raised the matter of this deficit at local fora meetings. One of the reasons given by management for the deficit is that forms consultants should fill out are not being filled out and forwarded to private health insurers. I do not have a difficulty with what they are paid for the job they do but if they are responsible for a €61million debt due to the HSE, which, in turn, may be responsible for the downgrading of services for older people across Mayo, then there is something wrong with the system.

I would like the Minister of State to visit the hospital. Her predecessor with day-to-day with responsibility for the primary care strategy had opened a state-of-the-art primary care centre and she will find no better alcohol addiction centre in the country than Hope House in Foxford. The staff and management are angels for the work they do. However, if our hospital is undermined, this will not be the first time I raise the issue in the House. It has served my town for generations and I would like that to continue.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

Intrinsic to the Government policy of keeping older people at home and in their communities is that we enable them to access quality short-term care. This option also alleviates pressure on acute hospitals by providing an alternative to admissions or lengthy stays. It makes sense from the patient's point of view and from an economic point of view. The programme for Government includes specific provision under capital developments in health for step-down facilities. Our intention is that people are cared for in the most appropriate and cost effective setting, including short-term care.

The HSE has sole operational responsibility for the delivery of health and social services, including those at facilities such as St. Joseph's District Hospital, Ballina. The Department is reviewing the provision of public residential care in light of the need to meet national standards and regulations, local demographic pressures and public and private provision. The review will serve as a platform for discussion and will inform the development of an overall strategy on how the HSE should continue to provide this service in future in view of current budgetary and other pressures. The review must also be seen in the light of the wider health reform programme to which the Government is committed, and the position of social care services in a future health service.

St. Joseph's District Hospital currently has 62 beds, of which 25 are designated for female patients and 37 for male patients. The facility mainly provides semi-acute step-down care and also accepts admissions directly from general practitioners in its catchment area. During 2010, there were 741 admissions, of which 500 were transfers from Mayo General Hospital and other acute hospitals. The stay at the hospital is 24 days. The total staff complement is 60 whole-time equivalents, of which 30 are nurses and 22 are support staff. Between January 2011 and February 2012, it is expected that eight vacancies will arise due to retirement.

Detailed discussions have taken place between management and the director of nursing to determine the number of patients that can be safely cared for with reduced staffing levels on the roster. It is anticipated that, in the circumstances, the HSE proposes at this stage to reduce the number of beds at the hospital by 12, from 62 to 50. I understand that staff have been informed of this proposal and that further meetings between management and staff representatives will be arranged, as necessary. The expected position regarding bed provision will apply from a current date, yet to be decided, to the end of January 2012, at which time the matter will be reviewed, as appropriate.

The main objective of the HSE is to maintain the maximum number of beds in line with staff resources available. The Deputy will appreciate that all developments have to be addressed in the light of current economic and budgetary pressures overall. Decisions taken by the executive must have regard to this, including the current moratorium on the recruitment of nursing and non-nursing staff. The executive has been asked, in this context, to make a rigorous examination of how existing funding might be reallocated to ensure maximum service provision. In particular, we need to ensure the highest standard of care will continue to be provided to all patients in a safe and secure environment, including to those at St. Joseph's.

Deputy Dara Calleary

With the closure of an additional 12 beds in Ballina together with the closure of 60 beds that has previously been announced, a total of 72 beds will be closed in homes and community care facilities in County Mayo. I do not know whether the Minister of State fully understands the geography of the county, which is the third largest in the State. The facilities are arranged in a way to provide services. Unfortunately, many people cannot be cared for in their homes and they need the services delivered by staff who go beyond the call of duty every day.

Will there be further reductions in Ballina? At the end of January, what are the chances of these beds being restored or will there be further closures? With regard to the information provided by Deputy Keaveney earlier, how much is due from health insurance companies? In fairness to the HSE, much of the debt is outstanding for less than a year and, therefore, staff seem to be getting their act together. It would be outrageous if beds for older people, no matter where they are in this country, were being closed because the HSE did not have the ability to get consultants to fill out forms properly. A total of €61 million is outstanding in HSE West, which is one of the smaller districts. Surely heads can be knocked together among HSE staff, insurance companies and consultants to return the money that is owing rather than closing beds in St. Joseph's or elsewhere in the community and nursing home sector in County Mayo.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

A considerable number of patients in acute hospitals need more appropriate care and it makes sense to provide care and step-down facilities as locally as possible to ensure older people, in particular, who spend short spells in acute hospital have access to the rehabilitation required for them to make a full recovery and live independently in their own homes, which is what the vast majority of them want.

A number of issues have to be taken into consideration. The model of care provision needs to be reconsidered while the cost of care in private settings and, last but not least, the quality standards required by HIQA must be taken into account. These will all be factors in the review of the services provided in step-down facilities over the coming months.

A substantial amount is owed to the HSE by acute hospitals because consultants who are exceptionally well paid have not filled out the necessary forms. It is unacceptable that they are required to fill out those forms in order that hospitals can access the payment from the insurance companies. These two requirements need to be decoupled and consideration is being given to that. It is also not acceptable that consultants have failed to do their duty and comply with the requirement to fill out the forms. This means substantial debts are owing and the HSE is faced with difficult decisions. The executive needs to be much more proactive in this regard, as I stated in reply to Deputy Keaveney. It is not acceptable that the HSE should leave an outstanding debt while imposing cuts on the most vulnerable. It needs to tackle this issue as a matter of urgency. I agree with the issues raised by the Deputy.

Public Service Staff

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I sincerely thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise this issue and I would like to acknowledge the presence of the two Ministers of State.

One of the biggest ever brain drains from Ireland will take place within the next few months when dozens of teachers, gardaí and other public servants are expected to opt for early retirement, as they fear that their pension entitlements will be slashed in the budget. Up to 1,000 gardaí can take early retirement while almost as many teachers are in the same position.

The reason for the rush to the door is that any public service worker who retires before the end of next February will do so on full pension. However, for those retiring after the February cut-off point, recent public sector pay cuts will be reflected in their pensions.

The exodus to which I refer will rob schools and the Garda of their most experienced members of staff. Government Deputies have urged caution and stated that those contemplating early retirement should have their futures well planned before taking drastic action. There are concerns that if there is a mass departure of teachers, this will have a negative impact on our schools both in terms of these individuals' experience and the voluntary work they do, particularly in the context of sport. Many public servants who work for county and city councils are considering bailing out amid fears of their pension entitlements being dramatically reduced. It has been claimed that if a significant number of gardaí retire early, this will leave rural communities vulnerable to attack because there is no recruitment taking place at present and these officers will not, therefore, be replaced.

I am aware of large numbers of gardaí, teachers, nurses and other health workers who have opted to take early retirement. The departure of these vastly experienced and highly-qualified personnel will cause difficulties in the context of the delivery of services. What must be borne in mind in respect of this matter is the amount of money it cost to train each of these individuals. Many thousands of euro were spent on programmes designed to allow the people to whom I refer to operate to very high standards and to ensure that — regardless of whether they are gardaí, nurses, senior or junior civil servants — they are at the top of their game. All of these individuals are all highly experienced. During the past four years, thousands of primary school teachers have retired. Many of those who retired during the past 12 months could have remained in employment for much longer and probably would have done so were it not for the dramatic changes introduced in respect of pension entitlements.

The Garda is facing a brain drain at senior management level. Of the 44 chief superintendents across the force, some 33 are in a position to take early retirement at any stage. If these senior officers were all to leave the force, it would leave an alarming imbalance in the context of experience. The position in this regard could be replicated across all other areas of the public service. It must be remembered that individual officers build up a wealth of experience during their time on the force.

With the embargo in place and with those at the top departing, it does not take a genius to identify the fact that it is front line services which will suffer. The Government and all State agencies must to learn the difference between maintaining budgets and maintaining the basic services that are required. There is nothing more basic than caring for the weakest and most vulnerable citizens. On my first day as a Member of this House, I reminded the Taoiseach of the late Declan Costello's paper, Towards a Just Society. Now, more than any other time in the history of the State, we must develop a just and fair society for all our citizens.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brian Hayes)

I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for raising this matter. I note his concern with regard to the loss of skills and expertise in the public service and how this might impact on service delivery.

The first point I would make is that Ireland is committed, under the EU-IMF programme, to reducing the overall size of the public service. That is also a key element of the programme for Government. This means that when public servants choose to retire, they will not be replaced in the majority of cases. Delivering this reduction will require continued implementation of the moratorium on recruitment — with exceptions being limited to essential posts only — and the utilisation of redeployment as the primary mechanism to fill posts which have been approved. In order to protect front line services, the Government is committed to making fundamental changes to the way the public service operates. This will inevitably mean altering in the way in which services to the public are delivered. The retirement of long-serving staff in any organisation can represent a loss of skills and experience but it can also represent an opportunity for an organisation to consider re-fashioning its business delivery model in order to take account of changing circumstances. There is also an opportunity for more junior staff to take on leadership roles and this can have a very positive impact on service delivery.

The Government must deliver better value in the public sector in order to reduce the deficit and protect front line services. In the first instance, it is part of the day-to-day function of the boards of management of many public bodies to assess and budget and plan for current and ongoing staffing requirements, including the identifying of key posts and services, particularly those relating to front line services. Given the acute fiscal restraints under which the country is currently operating, however, the reality is that all public service employers must operate within necessarily reduced and reducing resources. In recent years, enhanced numbers monitoring systems and multi-annual employment frameworks have been put in place. These arrangements will be strengthened to ensure that effect will be given to Government decisions on public service numbers and they will aid public bodies in adjusting to future staffing levels while minimising impacts on services.

The Government is not operating a blanket embargo on recruitment to the public service. In order to protect crucial services, exceptions to the moratorium may be granted in respect of: statutory posts which, for legal reasons, must be filled; circumstances where failure to fill posts would result in a breach of EU-international regulations and impact upon exports etc.; safety-related posts, which must be filled for security reasons or failure to fill which could leave the State open to potential legal liabilities; specialist-technical posts to ensure continuity of operations — for example, legal officers; laboratory staff, maritime safety personnel, etc.; and ensuring the continuity of front line services. The list of exceptions granted is regularly reported to the House in replies to parliamentary questions. This was most recently done on 16 November last.

As the Deputy is aware, in the case of certain front line services in the education and health sectors, a number of grades are exempted from the moratorium. This is to ensure that the services to which I refer will be maintained. In any large organisation there will inevitably be a turnover in staff numbers. However, the reason for any particular vacancy arising — whether as a result of early retirement, maternity leave, career break, resignation, etc. — is not a factor in decisions relating to exceptions to the moratorium. These decisions are based purely on the business case made in respect of particular vacancies.

It is critical that public service management should ensure that the public service continues to operate services properly and prudently, notwithstanding the departure of large numbers of experienced staff in a relatively short timeframe. This will require careful planning at local level. The recent introduction of the requirement to give three months' notice of intention to retire will be of assistance in this regard. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is supporting the establishment of strategic manpower planning groups in each sector. Sectoral employers that are best placed to assess emerging sectoral challenges will be expected to develop plans to deal with the operational and strategic consequences arising from the outflow of staff in 2012 and future years. The sectoral groups will feed into a central strategic manpower planning forum under the aegis of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I am glad he is present because he is an extremely sensible individual and will appreciate what I am going to say. This country cannot manage without the requisite number of people — regardless of whether it is a street cleaner who works for the local authority, a nurse who works in a hospital or a garda who pounds his or her beat — required to deliver front line services. We need the people to whom I refer in order to keep the country going.

I appreciate the constraints that apply and I am not criticising the Minister of State because I understand the adverse position in which we currently find ourselves. However, large numbers of people cannot continue to retire from the public service and draw down their pensions because there will be no one left to provide services. People must go to work every day and fulfil the different roles to which I referred earlier. I appreciate that the Government is not applying a blanket embargo on recruitment. It must be recognised, however, that fewer services are available than was the case in the past. People are continually being lost from the public service. If a council employee who works in a small village either dies or retires, he will not be replaced. This is having an affect throughout the country.

I am aware that the Minister of State was obliged to deliver a standard reply in respect of this matter. He knows what I am saying is sensible and factual. We will still need staff to run this country and to provide the necessary services. We cannot remain in the present mode where staff are either retiring or, unfortunately, dying and nobody is replacing them. A country cannot function that way. The Minister of State knows I am right.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Staff will be always replaced. If there is a staffing schedule of teachers and there are X number of pupils, according to the computation there are Y number of teachers. Even if there are retirements in the teaching professions, new teachers will be recruited because we have a staffing schedule which protects front line services. The same applies to nurses.

Where redeployment will happen — it is happening — is in the general public service. For example, more than 500 public servants moved from a variety of Departments last year to the Department of Social Protection to deal with the exceptional demands on its services, of which Deputy Healy-Rae will be aware. That happened because of the Croke Park agreement. That is the new public service. In the next few years, staff will move all over the place in the new public service. This will involve staff working together to deal with existing demands.

The only other option in response to what Deputy Healy-Rae is saying is that public service staff take another cut in pay. If he is suggesting that in order to keep staff in place we will have to take another 20%, 25% or 30% — call it what one will — off the public sector pay bill, that is not in anyone's interest.

I assure Deputy Healy-Rae that, with flexibility and a rearrangement of resources, front line delivery of services will be protected. There also will be new opportunities for younger people who know that, if and when the economy is turned around, they will be the new managers of a public service that will be radically different from the public service of the past.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 30 Nov 2011