Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2011

Vol. 750 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Languages Programme

Deputy Brendan Griffin

This matter was brought to my attention in my constituency over the weekend and I intended to raise yesterday but unfortunately it was not selected for discussion. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise it today.

I recognise that all Departments face severe economic constraints and understand the need to make savings in every Department. While it is easy to call for cuts to be reversed without setting out alternative sources of revenue, I strongly believe the decision to scrap the modern languages in primary schools initiative should be reviewed. This excellent initiative supports 500 schools nationwide and has a core team of six people co-ordinating it. It provides training and teaching in modern European languages to young children in primary schools and costs little in the overall scheme of things. While a figure of €2.5 million was cited in budget documentation, I understand the overall cost of the initiative is closer to €2 million.

I am concerned that the decision to abolish the scheme has been taken at a time when we need to be more outward looking by teaching our children European languages and doing our best to prepare them for the global market. The modern languages in primary school initiative is a step in the right direction and I hope the decision will be reviewed. While I understand the initial decision was to end the scheme in January, I have been led to believe it will be extended until June. I ask the Minister of State to ensure the decision is reviewed in the period until June with a view to finding some means of continuing to finance this important initiative.

The modern languages in primary schools initiative provides excellent value for money. The savings achieved from its abolition would be minuscule, particularly given the social and educational dividend it pays. Modern European languages are more important than ever. Moreover, it is easier for children at primary school level to learn foreign languages than older children. Teaching under the initiative takes place in a fun and enjoyable environment and eliminates the fear among children of learning European languages. I recall that one of the most daunting aspects of beginning secondary school was having to learn a foreign language. Children who have been involved in the initiative are very positive about European languages because the fear factor has been removed. They embrace language learning when they reach second level because they already have an excellent grounding in it. Losing the programme would, therefore, be a great shame. Over the weekend, I spoke to numerous teachers who are involved in the modern languages in primary schools initiative and to principals in the primary schools where it is being taught. They all agree that the initiative should definitely not be cut.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to give way to Deputy Pringle.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How much time have I left?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Your time is up because you are sharing it with Deputy Pringle.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay. I ask the Government to review this measure because it is a step in the wrong direction. We need a more joined-up approach to education if we are to prepare our children for the future. I hope something can be done in this regard.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I apologise for my late arrival in the Chamber. I had thought our matter was the second one on the Topical Issue agenda. As Deputy Griffin has outlined, the proposed abolition of the modern languages in primary schools initiative is a regressive cut. The children involved in the initiative, which is offered in 550 schools throughout the country, derive significant value from it. They are given a substantial head-start in modern European languages in fifth and sixth classes before they progress into the secondary system. It is vitally important that children are proficient in European languages when they leave the education system.

Ireland is a member of the EU and Irish companies do a great deal of business in Europe. We need our young people to be able to communicate with their European counterparts in a number of languages. We always hear business leaders bemoaning the fact that many Irish graduates are not very proficient in European languages. They have great difficulty recruiting people who can communicate in the various languages that are used around Europe. The Barcelona agreement and the Lisbon strategy, which called for systems to be put in place by 2010 to facilitate the early learning of at least two languages, were not ratified by the EU until last November.

The senseless cutback that is being introduced by the Department of Education and Skills, which will save just €2 million per annum, will place children at a severe disadvantage at a time when they need to be learning modern European languages. This regressive step should be reversed. I have received a great deal of correspondence in recent days from many school children who are very concerned about this cutback. I received a letter today from a pupil who said, "when my teacher told us that you cut modern languages, I was ready to cry". That is the impact this is having on children who were looking forward to increasing their education and developing their skills.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I am responding on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. I thank Deputies Griffin and Pringle for raising this issue. I welcome the opportunity to clarify the position on the decision that was taken in the context of budget 2012 concerning the ending of the modern languages in primary schools initiative.

As part of the budget 2012 decisions that have been announced, the modern languages in primary schools initiative will cease at the end of the 2011-12 school year. The savings from this measure will go towards the cost of implementing the new national literacy and numeracy strategy, which is a key commitment in the programme for Government. Since he was appointed as Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn has spoken repeatedly about the need to raise educational standards. The curriculum reform priorities in the period ahead are to strengthen achievement in literacy and numeracy, to implement reforms in maths, Irish and science, and to progress junior cycle reforms.

The modern languages initiative, which was a pilot scheme involving approximately 500 schools, had been operating since 1998. It has not been possible for other schools to join the pilot project for a number of years. The way it operated meant it was not capable of being rolled out to all 3,200 primary schools. The decision to end the scheme from June 2012 was partly based on policy advice from a 2008 report of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, which identified serious issues with curricular overload at primary level. The council recommended that modern languages should not be part of the primary school curriculum as an additional and separate subject at present.

The primary curriculum is being reviewed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment in the context of the national literacy and numeracy strategy. The focus of the review will be on how best to enhance children's learning in these areas, to provide a clearer delineation of the learning outcomes required and to integrate into the infant cycle the learning experiences from the curriculum framework for early childhood education, Aistear.

Targeted support is provided to post-primary schools to enable them to diversify their language provision. There is a particular focus on Spanish, Japanese, Russian and Italian. Other languages, including French, German and Arabic, are also taught at second level. Participation in foreign languages remains high by comparison with other subjects. The vast majority of students study two languages and thereby develop core skills which will serve them well in future language learning. There are many opportunities outside the second level system for people to resume language learning.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The modern languages in primary schools initiative is of considerable assistance in the delivery of improved literacy and numeracy in schools. It does that in a fun and enjoyable way. The contribution the initiative has made in the areas of literacy and numeracy should not be disregarded. Last October, the Royal Irish Academy published its national languages strategy, which called for the modern languages in primary schools initiative to be integrated into the mainstream curriculum. That was strongly recommended by the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs in 2005 and in a Council of Europe policy profile in 2008. That should be taken into consideration as well.

I will make a final point before I conclude. I am conscious that Deputy Pringle intends to make a final contribution as well. The Kerry football team has won 36 all-Irelands. We are very proud of every one of them. One of the factors that contributes to Kerry's success is that one is given a football as soon as one can walk.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is good to know that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I suggest we should apply that thinking to the teaching of languages in schools.

Deputy Barry Cowen

If it stops Kerry from winning all-Irelands, I am in favour of it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We will say nothing about 1982. The young brain is much more capable of learning languages than is the older brain. It is vital that we protect this initiative. It should be expanded. I understand that might not be possible under the current budgetary constraints. If the initiative is preserved for now, perhaps it can be expanded at some stage in the future when we are in a better economic position. Certainly, we should not do away with it.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I concur with everything Deputy Griffin has said. The younger children are when they start to learn languages, the easier it is for them. The manner in which the brain develops means it is easier for young people to absorb languages. The older we leave it, the more difficult it is. I recall that I found it difficult when I was in secondary school. All secondary school children take a second language. I would be interested to know what percentage of them progress to study languages at third level. That is the point we need to look at. It is vitally important that we ensure people have qualifications and proficiency in modern languages when they finish third level education. We have signed up to and ratified the Barcelona agreement, so we need to make a commitment to it. This initiative will enhance literacy and numeracy because children can absorb an awful lot. The more exciting and varied their learning is, the better equipped they will be. Can the Minister of State confirm that the programme will end in June 2012? Some teachers have been informed that their jobs will be gone at the end of the year.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I spoke in the Seanad a couple of days ago about the suggestion that the programme will conclude at the end of this year. My understanding is that it will run until the end of the current academic year in June 2012. We fully accept the desirability of the EU policy direction set out in the Barcelona agreement. That does not necessarily mean such an approach is practicable in every member state. Our national languages — Irish and English — are given recognition under our Constitution and are taught at primary level. I would argue that the teaching of those two languages enhances the ability of a child to readily absorb other languages later in life.

It was not easy to decide to end this scheme. I know the Minister, Deputy Quinn, gave careful consideration before the decision was taken to the concerns that were expressed from a number of quarters about the teaching of languages. This country will face an incredible challenge in the next few years.

Education is part of the four year recovery plan. We must find €350 million of savings between now and 2014. We are seeking to manage this reduction in a way that is as fair as possible. We had to take some difficult decisions in the run-up to the budget. It was difficult making the decision to end this initiative. We decided to shield front line services in schools as best we can and to the greatest extent possible. The pupil-teacher ratio remains intact. Resource teaching and SNA supports that are available to children with special needs remain intact.

We are also focusing, as we must, on our capital building programme in coming years in order to respond to a very serious demographic challenge. Thankfully, this is a positive one in that we must address serious population growth in the next few years. Between now and 2017 we must find room for 70,000 extra children in our schools. We are engaging in a €2.2 billion capital programme in the coming years in order to respond to that challenge.

It is a difficult decision and was not taken lightly. However, in the context of what we had to do, it was the only decision available to us at the time.

Redundancy Payments

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for granting me time to speak on this issue.

Up to 40 workers are expected to be made redundant by Vita Cortex on Friday. The context of the problem I bring before the House is that approximately two years ago the owners secured a loan of €10 million from AIB to purchase this company. Three months ago the company announced the plant's closure because this loan had been taken over by NAMA and the company's assets had been frozen.

I understand there are funds available to meet the redundancy payments to which the employees are entitled but because the company is in NAMA, these payments cannot be agreed in the normal manner as they would if the company was not in the NAMA structure. To date, Vita Cortex has met with NAMA to seek to have the funds unfrozen. Until recent weeks an impression was created that some kind of resolution to the matter would be made. However, just prior to coming into the Chamber, I was given to understand that AIB has been in contact with the workers, on behalf of NAMA, and has stated emphatically that redundancy payments will not be paid from company funds, which are currently held in an account.

In response to this, I call on the Minister for Finance to seek urgent agreement from NAMA to confirm it will release these funds so that the workers who face a bleak prospect of unemployment will, at very least, be sure they will receive the redundancy payments due to them. This case highlights very clearly the difficulties that arise when NAMA effectively takes control of a company by taking charge of its outstanding loans. NAMA's interest in recovering the outstanding moneys can be in conflict with the best interest of a company and its employees. Here we have a situation where 40 workers who face into Christmas with the dole queues as their Christmas gift now also have a difficulty with their redundancy payments. I call on the Minister to intervene directly in this instance and to ensure that the obligations which require payment to these workers are put in place.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I am replying to this Topical Issue debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan.

Reports in the media suggest that due to its assets having been frozen by NAMA, the employees of the Vita Cortex plant in Cork are being deprived of redundancy payments. In particular, it is reported that NAMA has control over a company bank account with cash assets of €2.5 million from which redundancy could be paid. However, it is important we appreciate the full facts in this case. I emphasise there are important issues of client confidentiality that need to be respected in discussing this issue. NAMA is precluded, under sections 99 and 202 of the NAMA Act 2009, from disclosing confidential information relating to debtors. I am, therefore, limited as to what I can say about this case.

I understand from NAMA that the company in question is one of a group of companies owned by a NAMA debtor who, on 16 September 2011, announced his intention to close the Cork plant as part of the reorganisation of Vita Cortex. This involved the amalgamation of the Cork-based production into the Athlone and Belfast plants. I have been informed by NAMA that the company which is being closed down by its owner has no borrowings that are NAMA-controlled.

I am also informed by NAMA that the employees being made redundant are employed by Vita Cortex Industrial Limited, VCIL, which is not a NAMA debtor. The money referred to in media reports represents part-security that NAMA has for a loan in respect of other companies which are NAMA debtors. In these circumstances, therefore, any suggestion that NAMA should release cash from this account so that the liabilities of another non-NAMA company should be discharged seems inappropriate.

There is a redundancy payments scheme in operation, the purpose of which is to compensate workers, under the Redundancy Payments Acts 1967 to 2007, for the loss of their jobs by reason of redundancy. Statutory redundancy lump sums are generally paid by the employer who is then entitled to a rebate from the State of 60% of the relevant amount. Rebates to employers and lump sums paid directly to employees are paid from the social insurance fund.

NAMA would suggest it is more the responsibility of the company's owner to make these payments from his own resources rather than ask NAMA to effectively make redundancy payments on his behalf by releasing security on unconnected loans. If the security for this loan was a plot of land there would be no question of the debtor seeking to get NAMA to pay the costs of his business.

Although the topic for debate relates to a particular issue, it is also worth pointing out that NAMA has assured the Minister for Finance it is committed to contributing to the purposes of the National Asset Management Agency Act 2009 which, inter alia, require it to contribute to the social and economic development of the State, in addition to protecting the interests of the taxpayer by ensuring that the value of any assets securing its loans is not diminished. In this context, NAMA assures the Minister it is a particular priority for NAMA, where possible, to minimise the adverse impact on the viability of any of businesses affected, or on the sustainability of any jobs that may be at stake. NAMA fully recognises the importance of ensuring the continued viability of businesses which can generate cash flow to repay debt and provide sustainable employment. However, NAMA cannot be held responsible for the liabilities of companies over which it has no control or with which it has no formal relationship.

NAMA was not established to settle disputes or to adjudicate on the rights and wrongs in these cases. Such a role is beyond the functions of NAMA as set out in statute in the National Asset Management Agency Act 2009. The prime function of NAMA is to manage acquired loans efficiently, effectively and expeditiously, and in the best interests of the State. In doing so it aims to attain the best achievable financial return on behalf of the taxpayer, subject to acceptable financial risk.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

To state that one aspect of a company is not in NAMA while another aspect is underlines the complexities NAMA has created in the market place. The fact is NAMA has been engaged in discussions with the employer on this matter and also, directly or indirectly, with the unions involved. Until this afternoon, therefore, it has been engaged in a communication process on this issue. I am at a loss when I hear that NAMA, in spite of having been in these discussions, now claims the situation has nothing to do with it.

In addition, I understand there is a holding account in excess of €2.5 million to which the redundancy payments can be met, comfortably. Two items were mentioned in the budget last week which strike me as relevant to this debate. The Government made a very clear statement with regard to the redundancy obligations of employers. It behoves the Government to ensure that in any matter relevant to such redundancy payments it should act on behalf of those affected. For that reason I call on the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to intervene and look directly at this problem as it presents itself.

In the course of his budget presentation, the Minister gave a particular direction to NAMA in terms of how it deals with tenants and rents. NAMA was directed to take specific measures in that area. That would indicate it is within the competency of this House, and certainly within that of the Minister for Finance, to give a direction to NAMA on this issue.

I reiterate what I stated at the beginning of this debate — 40 workers are without redundancy payments. I call on the Minister and his Department to examine this issue and make whatever intervention is needed to ensure these workers get their legal dues and receive their redundancy payments.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I again stress I am limited in what I can say about this case given the degree of confidentiality that exists. I reiterate the points made. The company that is being closed by the owner has no borrowings that are NAMA-controlled. The company is not a NAMA debtor and the money referred to in reports, the €2.5 million mentioned by the Deputy, represents part-security NAMA holds for a loan in respect of other companies that are NAMA debtors. I cannot see the logic, therefore, in suggesting that money set aside for debts that apply to a certain number of companies under NAMA control, and which we should seek to protect in the best interests of the taxpayer, should be used to discharge the personal liability of the owner of a company to his employees.

I have sympathy for the employees who will lose their jobs at a difficult time. However, I cannot see how money, held in security for debts controlled by NAMA in the interests of the taxpayer, could be used to offset the company owner's debts to those employees.

Departmental Staff

Deputy Michael Lowry

In the past several days my office has been inundated with calls from employees of the Garda vetting unit at Thurles, County Tipperary, who have been informed they will be laid off prior to Christmas. This is particularly galling when they are also aware of the recruitment of up to 16 interns from the JobBridge scheme who are due to take up positions in the unit in January.

These clerical officers were employed on temporary contracts, which were continually extended up until now, to tackle the huge backlog of applications in the unit. Many of them have been working in the unit for several months, even years in some cases. Through processing applications with personal and sensitive information, they have proved their professionalism, loyalty, discretion and experience at all times for the Garda vetting unit. The staff and management of the unit are doing an exemplary job under difficult circumstances on which I commend them. This unit is a relatively new one and since its inception it has been burdened with limited accommodation and a staggering workload. Yet despite these difficulties, and due entirely to the diligence of staff and management, they have succeeded in reducing the backlog in recent months from a waiting time of 16 weeks to just four weeks and will be down to the target of two weeks prior to Christmas.

This work ethic should be treasured yet these employees are being pushed aside as the backlog has now been brought under control. Their Christmas bonus is an unemployment notice with ten people losing their jobs prior to the Christmas break.

What will be the impact of these job losses on the vetting unit? The delay in processing Garda clearance certificates has in the past caused huge difficulty for people hoping to commence work or for people hoping to study certain college courses. The Minister for Justice and Equality promised a national vetting bureau Bill which will contain proposals to extend the remit of Garda vetting requirements to include a greater number of organisations. More robust measures to ensure the protection of children and the vulnerable in our society will be most welcome. The impact, however, these lay-offs will have on the unit must be properly examined and assessed. They will adversely affect the waiting times for the processing of an application for vetting, given the huge increase in the unit's workload which will come about as a result of this new legislation which will broaden the scope of the vetting unit, placing a huge additional demand on its service.

The issue relating to the use of interns raises questions about the JobBridge scheme. The coincidence of offering internships to displace current job holders is a despicable way to manoeuvre a scheme and manipulate people. The workers to be displaced are angry and disillusioned. They rightfully feel aggrieved and consider they have been replaced for a cheaper alternative.

Answers must be given as to why there is a need for interns when others are losing their jobs. It is highly questionable that experienced, fully trained staff will be laid off while inexperienced interns are taken on. It is illogical, inefficient and wasteful to let go someone on contract work who is fully trained on the intricacies of the system and to replace them with someone who has no training in this field.

Will the Minister acknowledge this decision is not cost effective, is not in the best interests of the system and is extremely unfair and unjust to the workers in question? I call on him to reverse the decision and to renew the existing staff contracts.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank the Deputy for his interest in this matter, one about which Deputy Coonan was in contact with me earlier this week.

The Garda central vetting unit provides employment vetting for a large number of organisations registered with the Garda for this purpose and which employ or engage persons in a full-time, part-time, voluntary or training capacity to positions where they would have substantial, unsupervised access to children and vulnerable adults.

I am informed by the Garda authorities the average number of applications processed each month for 2011 to date is 25,384 and the average processing time for Garda vetting applications at the unit now stands at five weeks. This is a significant improvement on the average processing time of 12 weeks at the end of last year. One has to go back to 2009 to see a processing time as low as that which currently exists when the average number of applications received per month was approximately 25% lower than at present.

A total of 100 personnel are assigned to the unit at its office in Thurles, County Tipperary. To put this staffing figure into perspective, 13 individuals were employed to deal with vetting applications before the current process of development in Garda vetting began in 2005. Of this 100, five are members of An Garda Síochána and 75 are full-time Garda civilian personnel. In addition, 20 civilian personnel have been employed on a temporary basis to help reduce the backlog and bring down processing times. The contracts of ten of these personnel are due to expire shortly.

As I pointed out, the backlog issue has been substantially addressed and processing times have returned to what could be regarded as normal for this type of service. I have already placed on the record of the House my commitment to keeping the time required to obtain a vetting to the minimum possible. One of my first actions as Minister was to allow the Garda Commissioner the chance to extend the contracts of the ten temporary civilian employees for a six-month period and assign an additional ten temporary civilian personnel.

As a completely separate issue, the Garda Commissioner has pursued the question of providing placements for several individuals to avail of the JobBridge scheme. The aim of the scheme is to provide those seeking employment with the opportunity to gain valuable work experience, maintain close links with the labour market and to enhance their skills and competencies through a quality internship opportunity. It is expected that individuals who participate in the scheme will enhance their prospects of securing employment in the future. I am sure the Deputy will see the value in this.

The scheme will provide internship opportunities of six or nine months for unemployed individuals in organisations in the private, public and community and voluntary sectors. The offering of placements in the Garda central vetting unit under the terms of the scheme is for no other purpose than that for which the scheme was intended — to provide those seeking employment with the opportunity to gain valuable work experience, maintain close links with the labour market and to enhance their skills and competencies through a quality internship opportunity.

Any suggestion that these placements are being offered to fill vacancies left by the staff whose contracts are expiring is utterly rejected. I want to be absolutely clear — the position of temporary employment of staff on contract has not been affected in any way by developments with the JobBridge scheme.

I wish to express my gratitude to the staff in question for their efforts in helping to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the unit, given the particularly important nature of the work in question. The sanction for their employment, however, was issued by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform clearly on the basis that their employment was temporary. That remains the case. However, in this context, discussions on the matter are ongoing between officials of my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Accordingly, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on the matter at this point in time, other than to say I am hopeful there will be developments.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I am glad to hear the matter is under review. These lay-offs do not make any sense particularly in this highly sensitive area in which confidentiality is very important. It is vital that those who fill those roles have experience. Those on temporary contracts have built up that experience and expertise and are confident, capable, efficient personnel. I hope the ten clerical officers due to be let go before Christmas will have their contracts renewed.

Second, will the Minister clarify the position in the case of another 11 people whose contracts are due to expire in March? From my perspective and the perspective of everybody operating the vetting unit, it is highly unacceptable that people who are in a job should be displaced by people on a new jobs scheme. I appreciate the fact that the Minister is reviewing this. I hope there will be a favourable outcome to the review and that the people who are employed will continued to be employed on a contractual basis into the new year.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I emphasise there is no question of people being displaced by those on the internship scheme. I expect the Deputy would welcome the usage of the scheme, as it will specifically give some unemployed people in his constituency an opportunity to gain skills and competencies to re-enter the workforce in the difficult circumstances that exist in the context of the large number of individuals unemployed due to our economic difficulties.

My Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are in regular contact about ensuring the Garda vetting unit remains in a position to carry out its functions efficiently. That contact must take place against the background of the general strictures that apply to public service numbers. As the Deputy acknowledged, these appointments are temporary and they were always understood to be so. I want to emphasise that decisions taken on contract employees are not based in any way on developments relating to the JobBridge scheme. They are two separate matters but I accept the case Deputy Coonan made to me privately and the case the Deputy has made that these are skilled staff who have been engaged in this unit for some time and whose work is valued. However, they are temporary employees. Their contracts were previously extended at my request when they were about to expire earlier this year and I am aware the contracts of the ten people mentioned by the Deputy are due to expire shortly. That is a matter in respect of which I am engaged with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

Community Employment Schemes

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I thank the Minister for taking this matter. Since the budget, people on community employment, CE, schemes have been terrified that their schemes will end. A total of 22,500 people around the country are carrying out valuable work for our communities and they are fearful about what may happen to them. My constituency has schemes such as the Darndale Belcamp Village Centre, Kilbarrack Coast Community Programme and Howth Sutton Community Council. The groups of companies I am most familiar with, because I have been a director of them for more than 25 years, are the Northside Centre for the Unemployed, the Glin Centre, Coolock and Coolock Development Council, which is on a community campus on Bunratty Drive. If the cut of €1,000 per worker for training and materials goes ahead, we will lose €120,000. It will be devastating and it will be a disaster for these groups of companies. The money has primarily been used for progression-based training courses in the past, including construction, welding, elder care, child care, landscaping, food and hygiene, occupational first aid, ECDL, office skills and so on going up to FETAC level 5. It will be disastrous for our training programmes if the Minister's review does not reconsider this cut urgently.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The announcement has caused consternation among CE participants, supervisors and those who avail of their services. I do not know how the Minister will be able to stand over this but she stated in a recent letter that: "In the event that the reduction in the training and materials grant announced in the budget creates financial difficulties for schemes that would otherwise be viable, my Department will be in a position to fund such schemes from within the overall Department budget." That is welcome but it exposes how ridiculous it is to go ahead with cut in the grant. The letter also claimed no CE scheme would close pending the outcome of the review.

These schemes are valuable, especially in areas of severe disadvantage, because they provide services the State should provide. Many of them survive on a month to month basis and they need to plan the roll-out of the training aspect of the programme. They must plan in advance and if they are unsure of funding, they must go with a begging bowl to the Department and hope the Minister will listen. The announcement is disastrous. The Minister understands some of the schemes because, for instance, she attended the Liberties Recycling training and development scheme and presented the FETAC awards.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Cutbacks totalling €41.5 million in the CE programme will impact on services throughout the country and act as an impediment to long-term unemployed people looking to upskill and re-enter the workforce. The budget contained measures that will reduce the training and materials grant from €1,500 to €500 per participant per annum. These schemes include prominent community programmes such as crèches, community and family resource centres, elderly and disabled supports, sporting, social and cultural clubs, Tidy Towns, etc. There are 23,000 places on the schemes, which are sponsored by voluntary boards of management, with running costs covered by the materials and training budget. The cut means that sponsoring a scheme may no longer be variable.

The Taoiseach in reply to me yesterday said the Minister's review will not slow down the legislation relating to the budget, which will give effect to the 66% cut in the training and material grant for the schemes. Why did she not engage with the sector? Why did she not inform the schemes of a review before the budget, which cut their grant by 66%? How can scheme administrators prepare work plans for next year knowing such a grant cut will leave them in no position to prepare or cost a plan, let alone implement it? When will the review take place? Who will carry it out? What are the terms of reference it will adhere to? How long will the review take? If the costs associated with the schemes are cut by €41.5 million and the Minister says they will all survive, where will the funding come from within her budget to fund the schemes that are not viable? Is the cut in her budget, therefore, €420 million rather than €475 million? Will she clarify how much her Department's funding was cut by in the budget?

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton)

The employment services division of FÁS will join the Department of Social Protection on 1 January 2012. This division has responsibility for CE schemes. This means the operational budget for CE schemes will become the responsibility of my Department. The division has 700 staff and it is also responsible for the local employment service. As part of its integration into the Department of Social Protection, I have directed that a review of CE schemes commence immediately. The purpose of the review is to establish the ongoing viability of each scheme in the context of the overall objectives of the CE programme and recognising, in particular, the community and social value of each scheme and the value to the participant in helping them back to work. It would be odd if a review was not carried on a division of this size with responsibility for so many schemes. No scheme will close pending the outcome of this review.

Due to the current economic circumstances and the need for the Department to find savings of €475 million in the budget, it is necessary to examine all aspects of expenditure of my Department. We are planning savings of €27.5 million, which represents a reduction of 7.5% in the 2011 CE budget of €360 million. The Department will spend €960 million on employment supports, including CE schemes, in 2012. Thankfully, that is up from €882 million in 2011. There is actually a very significant increase in a time of cutbacks in the overall budget for employment supports.

Community employment schemes provide a very important and valued contribution to social employment, training and progression for jobseekers. Furthermore, many community employment schemes provide vital community services right across the country.

This budget has had jobs at its centre. While CE provides an excellent service for the community in many cases, and provides a level of work for employed persons, it does not have high progression rates into further education, training or, indeed, a job. Many schemes do; some schemes do not. That is the fact. We need to ensure that people who go on CE schemes have a better chance at the end of the process of returning to work, and we are beginning that process with budget 2012.

With regard to the training element of community employment, the national training fund will provide €4.2 million for training on CE in 2012. In addition, SOLAS will continue to provide access to its training programmes for CE participants. It also has an additional €20 million activation fund. The need for training on community employment varies depending on the needs of participants, how long they have already been on the scheme and the training already received.

I want to mention two reviews——

Acting Chairman (Deputy Olivia Mitchell)

The Minister will have to conclude as we are pressed for time.

Deputy Joan Burton

I want to mention the two reviews of community employment carried out recently, first, the Forfás review and, second, the ESRI review. Both said that, for quite a number of community employment participants, there is only a 1% to 3% chance of actually getting a job after they have participated. That is a very worrying outcome.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

My experience is the opposite of the Minister's and I believe there is a fair amount of progression. The Minister rightly emphasised labour activation. Some of the courses people take cost anything from €500 to €800. All of that training is gone, which seems a very retrograde step if the Minister is serious about progression. Why did the Minister go ahead with the cuts without carrying out the review first? Why not talk to the people who know best, those represented by the three Deputies present, and then decide what to do in regard to funding?

I notice some key training we give people who work for us in our companies is mandatory, for example, health and safety training. How are we going to do that if there is no funding?

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Does the Minister not understand that the review of the schemes after the fact is illogical and too late? The Minister should reinstate the training and materials grant and carry out the review. Although I believe these schemes have been over-evaluated over the years, if that review is carried out, the Minister will find very few of them are not complying with their mission statements. In fact, most will show a degree of progression, which is often not reflected, particularly those schemes involved in special community employment, such as drugs rehabilitative schemes, which show a tremendous amount of progression.

I referred earlier to Liberties Recycling, which must carry out safe pass as well as health and safety training. This means the training budget is altogether gone. Over and above that, last year every single one of the participants reached FETAC level and the same applies on other schemes.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I am sorry to say the response does not make the situation any better than it was before we started. The review is a smokescreen. It appears the Minister has no authority from Cabinet to rescind the cut that is proposed by the Minister, Deputy Howlin, to reduce the budget by €41.5 million. The Minister, Deputy Burton, said she would be able to achieve savings of €27.5 million so, even in the best case scenario, there is a €15 million gap. She talked about activation measures of €20 million. Will she be announcing separate activation measures from within SOLAS in addition to all other activation measures that currently exist within her Department?

Deputy Joan Burton

The community employment schemes and the operational budget both come into the Department of Social Protection on 1 January. The Department has not been in charge of community employment scheme operations through FÁS and will not be until FÁS staff come into the Department in the new year. People should understand that the key change arises from that fact and from the fact of the difficulties in the FÁS organisation that have resulted in the changes to FÁS, whereby the labour services side comes into the Department of Social Protection and the training and further education side goes into SOLAS and the Department of Education and Skills.

I have much personal experience of community employment and I recognise everything the Deputies have said about its value. I was out in Coolock the other night, talking to people in this regard, as I am sure Deputy Broughan knows. If we are honest, we have to say that not every community employment scheme has the same positive outcomes for the people who participate.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Olivia Mitchell)

The Minister must conclude as the time is up.

Deputy Joan Burton

Deputy Cowen referred to people on FETAC courses and I visited the community employment scheme in Bluebell to which Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred. I am very confident that good community employment schemes with quality services and quality outcomes for participants will benefit from the review. The key point is the outcome for people as well as the services to the community and value for money. We will have very good progress in each of those areas.