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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2011

Vol. 750 No. 1

Order of Business

It is proposed to take No. a11, motion re membership of committee; No. b11, Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Financial Resolution; No. 20, statements on European Council, Brussels; No. 1, Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Second Stage (resumed) and Subsequent Stages; and No. 6, Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. a11 and b11 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 20 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour and 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 40 minutes, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the following arrangements shall apply to No. 1: the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5.50 p.m.; the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government; and Private Members’ business which shall be No. 43, motion re policies affecting rural areas (resumed) shall be taken at 7p.m., and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes.

There are five proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a11 and b11 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed?

No, but I hope we can resolve this quickly. Yesterday, the Taoiseach stated he was prepared to give this debate any time that was required. I welcome the additional time for questions but I would like to request two changes to the taking of No. 20. We would like the time for opening statements extended to at least 20 minutes because the issues are complex and comprehensive and 20 minutes might give Members a more reasonable timeframe. The proposal states a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions. At yesterday morning's meeting with party leaders and again in the Dáil later, the Taoiseach indicated that he would take the questions and I propose that the order should be amended to reflect this. This is what was agreed and an additional ten or 20 minutes could be provided after 10 p.m.

I am amazed that the proposal refers to a Minister or Minister of State when the Taoiseach clearly gave the impression that he would be prepared to come in here to answer questions for 40 minutes. Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps I am wrong that it should have stated "Taoiseach" as the Taoiseach is a Minister of the Government in any case. It is absolutely incumbent on him that he comes in here to explain the import of what was agreed last week in Brussels. Nobody knows the extent or implications for our people of the institutionalisation of austerity or whether the Government proposes that the people be given a say by referendum on this. We need the Taoiseach here to answer those questions urgently this day.

It is essential that the Taoiseach takes the questions.

The Taoiseach can tell us what he put on the table.

There are very few takers for my offer to come back next week to continue the debate if they wish.

There are not too many takers behind the Taoiseach either.

I do not have any problem.

Once bitten, twice shy.

I will be around anyway. If Deputy Higgins wants to come back Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday next week, just say so because I am serious about this. I have no difficulty with Deputy Martin's suggestion of an additional five minutes for spokespersons. We can push that into the sos period. Deputy Higgins is precisely accurate in that I will be in attendance and I expect the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to be in attendance as well——

Much to Deputy Higgins's disappointment. Happy Christmas.

——to give Deputies the full Monty as it were.

Will it be picture and no sound? Is the Taoiseach confirming that he will answer the questions or will he leave it to a Minister of State?

As Deputy Higgins will be aware, a political agreement was reached last Friday, in regard to which a great deal of work has to be done to flesh that out into a text that will be presented to the different parliaments around the EU.

We want to know what was in that case besides the sandwiches.

I noticed that Deputy Martin said we should have a referendum anyway and that he would not have agreed to the agreement last week, which would have resulted in Ireland being the only eurozone country walking away from Europe and undoing 40 years of bridge building with our European colleagues.

That is daft. Come on.

Think of the implications of that for the IFSC and places down there.

Can the Taoiseach confirm that he will answer questions?

Given the season of goodwill, a Cheann Comhairle, I want to——

We cannot have a debate.

I just want to respond to——

No, you cannot say anything because I have to say something.

I just want to welcome the Taoiseach's response. Given the season of goodwill, when I went through the corridors this morning, there were many worried brows meeting me and saying to me "Whatever you do, don't go to next week." Whereas the Taoiseach and I might like to come back next week, we would be on our own.

They know what happened to the last week's break. They did not expect that.

Thank you, Minister.

I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle.

Is the revised proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed to? Agreed.

The Taoiseach is answering questions. That is what is important.

He is taking questions.

Will we be allowed to ask him questions?

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, agreed to?

People beside you are interrupting so you cannot hear what I am saying. Would you ask them to stay quiet?

You could project your voice a little more.

No, it is not my voice. I will read it again for the Deputy and I will even look at the Deputy when I read it. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, agreed to?

It is not agreed. I want to oppose this proposal as it involves the Government again using the guillotine to rush through legislation which targets the most vulnerable of our citizens. Last week it was the Social Welfare Bill, this week it is the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill. By imposing this flat rate tax on everyone, the Government——

Deputy Adams's councillors are happy to have £1,500 in the North.

Settle down there, Deputy Dowds. Do not be upsetting yourself for a moment. Deputy Adams should continue.

The Government is again abandoning its pre-election promises to protect the most vulnerable and families on low incomes. There needs to be time to debate this legislation and to give Government Deputies time not to heckle but to explain their position.

I agree with that position. The guillotining of Bills has been a pattern.

The Deputy should get his own programme out of this. It is comedy.

(Interruptions).

There must have been an awful lot of Christmas parties last night.

The only comedy is that I take seriously the commitments Deputy Rabbitte made. I take seriously the intense emotion of his outbursts in the last Dáil against the guillotining of Bills. I take seriously——

He did not take it very seriously then.

——his general articulation of the need for debate and so on.

Another Pauline conversion on the road to Damascus.

I am just making the point that there has been an extraordinary pattern of guillotining Bill after Bill in this House, and a lot of optics going on in-between. The once-a-month Fridays, for example, are a bit of a joke in terms of the Government's contribution.

Because they cannot hold up their end — that is the only reason. The lads are gone home.

What we are getting here is optics in terms of the substance of Dáil reform. The Government should facilitate a proper debate on this in the schedule.

A Deputy

They cannot because their heads are in the sand.

Deputy Martin knows what happened to St. Ruth at the Battle of Aughrim. He put his head up and got it shot.

You have got too comfortable, Pat.

It is bad enough that the Taoiseach wants to impose yet another regressive charge on low and middle income families in this country on top of all the other charges, the rising prices and the austerity measures——

The upper class like the Deputy are okay.

——which are absolutely crucifying people. It is disgraceful that on this Bill, the Social Welfare Bill and almost any Bill that really matters to the daily life of ordinary people, the Taoiseach is imposing a guillotine. He should at least allow for a proper debate. I put it to the Taoiseach that, such is the severity of the austerity that is now being meted out to people and being rushed through with guillotines, pretty soon the anger of people will rise up——

Another protest. That would suit the Deputy, all right.

——to the point that they will want another type of guillotine to deal with the people who are imposing this austerity.

The Minister, Deputy Hogan, came in last night and presented Second Stage of the household tax Bill. He had a grin on his face from beginning to end as he was introducing it.

We should certainly put an end to that.

You seem to have a bit of a smile yourself, a Cheann Comhairle.

We need time to explain the implications of this to the Minister, Deputy Hogan. It is not a grinning matter, this new imposition on individuals and families. The vast bulk of ordinary people, the vast bulk of the 1.6 million householders, as the Government says, which is the huge majority of householders and, therefore, a huge majority of the population, are to be coerced into paying this regressive tax.

Thank you, Deputy.

Therefore, we need time to explain the implications to the Government. Perhaps it will see the light and withdraw it, and go after the bondholders instead and find the funds there——

Thank you, Deputy.

——or go after the super-wealthy, whose assets are not being touched by the Government, instead of coming back to the same well of ordinary people up and down this country. We need the time for that.

I have heard the four contributions from Deputy Martin, Deputy Adams, Deputy Boyd Barrett and Deputy Higgins. They are all looking for more time to debate the local charges Bill. They make a very good case to come back here next week. So make your minds up. We can go until midnight tonight if Deputies wish to have extra time to discuss this or come back next week. I advise them to make their minds up quickly.

What about tomorrow?

The Taoiseach is not a horse dealer.

If they are looking for extra time to debate this, we either take the time off an existing Bill, we extend the time tonight or we come back next week. The choice is yours. Do you want it? I will give it to you.

What is wrong with tomorrow?

You had better get your act together, lads.

There is actually a law in force called the agency directive that has no legislation at all until after Christmas. Work that one out.

Thank you. I am now putting the question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 1 be agreed to."

A Cheann Comhairle——

A Cheann Comhairle——

A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach asked if we wanted to come back.

A question was put.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Remaining Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 92; Níl, 43.

  • Bannon, James.
  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Catherine.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Cannon, Ciarán.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Collins, Áine.
  • Conaghan, Michael
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Doherty, Regina.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Farrell, Alan.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Anne.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Humphreys, Kevin.
  • Keaveney, Colm.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McEntee, Shane.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mathews, Peter.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Murphy, Eoghan.
  • Nash, Gerald.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Nolan, Derek.
  • O’Donnell, Kieran.
  • O’Donovan, Patrick.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Mahony, John.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Perry, John.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reilly, James.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Sherlock, Sean.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Walsh, Brian.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Browne, John.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Cowen, Barry.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Donnelly, Stephen S.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
  • Fleming, Tom.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Brien, Jonathan.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Tóibín, Peadar.
  • Troy, Robert.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.
Question declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to? Agreed.

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