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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2012

Vol. 753 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions

Since the Croke Park agreement was signed everyone has been aware there was going to be a very significant reduction in the number of people working in the public sector. The key part of the agreement and the commitments made by the Taoiseach, as leader of a party, and the Tánaiste were that front line public services would be maintained irrespective of the numbers that would be reduced. We know 29 February is the closing date for applications for the early retirement scheme and February was always going to be the month when the majority of staff were going to leave.

While that, in itself, is not a surprise, the lack of a detailed plan on how to deal with this exodus is now a major and astounding reality. According to the latest figures, approximately 8,000 public service workers are expected to leave, with health and education making up the bulk of those retirements in addition to hundreds in the Garda and the Defence Forces. We know arrangements were being made in the education sector, with teachers being retained on lower pay scales. We know consultant-led services will be lost in the health arena, including consultants in the area of midwifery. Specialist nurses, public health nurses and staff nurses are retiring, and they will not be retained even where replacements are not available in essential fields of activity.

We know from Professor Michael Turner, the director of the HSE's obstetrics and gynaecology programme, that staff reductions will see an increase in Ireland's maternal and infant mortality rates. To that must be added the comments of consultant obstetrician Dr. Gerry Burke in Limerick, who made even starker statements that people, including women, will pay with their lives.

A question, please.

We knew this was coming for quite a long time. Will the Taoiseach outline to the House a detailed plan to show what areas, specifically in the regard to health, will lose posts and how front line services will be protected in those areas, arising out of contingency planning by the Government? Will he outline the details of that plan to the House?

The Minister for Public and Expenditure and Reform this morning gave a very clear outline of the position we are moving into. There are 300,000 persons employed in the public sector; 3% of these are leaving and 97% will remain in situ. Clearly, the flexibility that is inherent in the Croke Park agreement will now be put to the test. The Government has no intention of allowing a situation where it is not possible for front line services to be fulfilled.

It has already started.

From that point of view, there is a central planning unit in the Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform, there are local sectoral planning units and each Department is monitoring the situation in so far as they are all concerned. For example, the Minister for Health has asked the HSE to draw up a risk assessment in regard to the staffing situation, which will identify particular pressure points that arise across the health sector.

It should be borne in mind that this is a decision people make for themselves in respect of their own lives and futures. Some are making this choice to leave earlier than might normally be expected, others because they are close to the normal retirement age and others because they want to get out for a variety of reasons. It is a decision being made by the significant number of people whom we now know have given their notice of intention to retire at the end of February.

The Minister for Health also intends to review the service plan once he has absolute clarity on the full impact of what is going to happen in the health service at the end of the 29 February grace period, as that is called. It is important to note that in the area of health, to which Deputy Martin referred, the Minister is accelerating the health reform agenda and building in new innovative and efficient models of care, for example, the clinical care programmes. The HSE national service plan includes a commitment within the context of the Croke Park agreement to address greater flexibilities in work practices and rosters, particularly for nursing and medical staff in front line services.

Deputy Martin made reference to Dr. Burke from Limerick. As a senior medical person, he, with many others, has a duty and a responsibility to keep the levels of service to the highest standard possible.

The situation in so far as flexibility is concerned will assist in staffing and budget reductions. The HSE plan recognises that certain positions may need to be filled, although this is, of course, subject to the overall pay and numbers for 2012. I point out that exempt grades for 2011 included consultant doctors, psychiatric nurses, emergency medical technicians and public health nurses. That review is constantly being monitored by the central unit in the Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform, in each individual line Department and by each Minister. Local managers are looking at the potential impact of the numbers in the local areas and this is being monitored by the sectoral groups within the central Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform.

The Taoiseach used the words "monitor", "review" and "the Minister has asked". I did not ask anything about that. I am not interested in monitoring. I am not interested at this stage-----

(Interruptions).

Order, please.

At this stage, when the exodus is about to happen, what I asked the Taoiseach-----

You monitored nothing and we are where we are. Cop on.

(Interruptions).

Order, please.

What I asked the Taoiseach was whether he could outline to the House a detailed plan in regard to what posts are being reduced, where posts are being lost and whether there is a detailed plan to provide front line services. This is a matter of life and death. I am not saying that, Dr. Burke is saying it and the Taoiseach quoted Dr. Burke.

Deputy Martin should not be saying that.

Dr. Burke, the obstetrician, said it. Does the Deputy want the quote? Dr. Burke said that 47 of the 200 midwives are taking early retirement and that "Unfortunately, some babies and women may pay for this with their lives''.

That is shocking.

Sorry, this is Question Time.

That is what he said. The Taoiseach quoted him. That is what I am talking about here. It is incredible the Taoiseach cannot say to the House-----

We are over time. Can you ask a question, please?

-----that the Government cannot reveal to the House a detailed plan in terms of an unprecedented reduction in numbers, how they will affect front line services and how front line services are going to be replaced. It is a very serious issue in terms of the health care of people. Professor Michael Turner is not an alarmist.

A question, please.

He is the director of gynaecology and obstetrician services in the HSE. He is using similar language in a less alarmist way in terms of maternal and infant mortality.

Does the Deputy have a question, please?

The Taoiseach comes into the Chamber, says it is fine and brushes it all aside. What is the Cabinet sub-committee on health doing? What is the Government doing? The Taoiseach should be hands-on and on top of this. That is why the Minister for Health-----

The Deputy is over time. Thank you.

-----abolished the board of governance of the HSE and said he would take charge of it. We have no evidence.

Will you ask a question?

The Minister of State, Deputy Shortall could not tell Deputy Kelleher yesterday-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy, resume your seat.

The Taoiseach is winging it. Has he a plan?

I remind Deputies there is an item on the Order Paper today, statements on the health plan 2012. We can have a detailed discussion then. This is Question Time.

Are any Government speakers offering?

There is no need for Deputy Martin to become hysterical just because he is under pressure from those on his right hand side.

We will see who will be under pressure.

He is a bit to the left.

You are on his left.

(Interruptions).

I believe the Deputy for once when he says he has no interest in monitoring. He never had.

What is the plan? We will see what you deliver.

Deputy Martin is the one, above everyone who ever came into this House, who produced all the plans, more than 130 consultants reports, but never acted on them. He had no interest.

Answer the question.

Freagair an cheist.

The numbers became known yesterday.

Are you serious?

Less than 24 hours ago the final numbers were confirmed.

The Deputy wants a detailed plan this morning, covering every office and service in the country.

I do, for health.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has a central unit which is looking at the sectoral impact of the decisions-----

I hope it is a mobile one.

-----made by people in recent weeks. I remind Deputy Martin that between 3,000 and 5,000 people leave the public service every year without there being the crisis he or Mr. Burke mentions. As I stated last week, it is outrageous for a senior medical professional, at a time when people are making decisions about their lives, and whether to leave the public service-----

The Taoiseach is not in a position to rebut this because he has no detail.

------to claim that the safety of pregnant women and babies is being put on the line. It ill becomes a senior medical professional to say that.

He is on the front line.

Is the Taoiseach saying he does not know his job?

The Deputy can take it the Government is as serious as everybody else is about maintaining the high standards and the quality of front line public services that our public servants have always given, in particular, in the sensitive areas of health, education, justice or wherever. All these areas are being monitored by individual Ministers in their Departments-----

What about rheumatology in Sligo? Who is replacing the consultant?

-----and being relayed directly to the central unit in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

This is a scheme whereby people are entitled to make the choice to leave the public service.

A Deputy

What about Paul Appleby?

Even though the numbers are of this order there will not be the scale of crisis and catastrophe the Deputy seems to want to happen.

I read a report in The Irish Times today which quotes an official as stating the European fiscal treaty was specifically crafted to minimise the prospect of a referendum in Ireland. The Taoiseach’s line has been that if a referendum is necessary it will be held. He has told us repeatedly he has nothing to fear from a referendum. I put it to the Taoiseach that here we are looking at another example of his having one message for the domestic audience while he says something different at a European level. We saw this carry on in Davos and we see it again.

The Taoiseach tried to spoof the people by referring this treaty to the Attorney General. In reality what he has tried to create is a pre-cooked deal.

It depends on the constitutional requirement.

Allow me to quote from the report: "We drafted the text of the treaty so he - the Taoiseach - has a chance to avoid a referendum". Was that official telling the truth? Did the Taoiseach leave his green jersey behind when he went to negotiate this matter? Did this Government, and officials acting on behalf of this State, collude with other Governments and with EU institutions-----

A Deputy

Absolutely.

The Deputy would know all about collusion.

-----to avoid this treaty having to be put to the people by way of referendum?

Yesterday I forgot to remind the Deputy's leader, when he was talking about the buddy situation, that he gave me some kind of bear hug during the course of the leaders' debates before the last election. Occasionally he seems to have a selective amnesia.

What buddy situation?

I want the Deputy to understand that I do not deal with-----

A Deputy

Bear hugs.

-----Grizzly Adams.

(Interruptions).

I want her to understand we do not deal with anonymous people or anonymous reports. The reporter for The Irish Times is a very good reporter and a responsible person. I have no idea in the world as to the official he refers to, or the quoted comments. If that is the case and that speculative report were to be true does that not belie everything the Deputy has been saying for a very long time, namely, that Ireland has no influence in Europe? If that report were true here is a case where 25 countries agree, according to the words of that official, there should not be a referendum in Ireland in any circumstances? We would have, therefore, enormous influence in Europe, in spite of what the Deputy’s leader stated yesterday.

The Deputy cannot have it both ways. We have been very clear about this. This is a political agreement, now signed off by 25 countries. The process in this democracy, where we do not deal with anonymous people, is to ask the Attorney General whether the agreement is in conformity with our Constitution, Bunreacht na h-Éireann. As the Deputy knows, I referred that matter yesterday from the Cabinet to the Attorney General. She will consider that in her own time and we will act accordingly on the basis of her advice.

I do not know the official to whom the report refers. I have no idea-----

-----about the quoted remarks but I can tell the Deputy that the officials from this country, from the Departments of Foreign Affairs, of the Taoiseach and others engaged intensively with officials of all the other countries in the drafting of the text that was presented finally on Monday to the Heads of Government and was signed off, with one or two minor amendments. That is the truth of the matter; that is how it is.

The Taoiseach has not answered the question. What I want to know is whether, in the course of this intensive engagement officials from this State, on the direction of this Government, engaged with the European institutions to draft the treaty in such a way as to frustrate the prospect of a referendum in this country. I want the Taoiseach to confirm or deny to the House that this was the case.

The Taoiseach mentioned Ireland's influence. The truth is the only stages where Ireland has exerted that influence is when the people had the opportunity to vote at referendum. I believe the Irish electorate is extremely influential. The Tánaiste told a committee of this Oireachtas and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, also stated the Taoiseach did not want a referendum but wants to proceed with a change of this magnitude-----

Can we have a question, please?

-----without as much as a nod to the democratic wishes of the people. That is my belief. Will the Taoiseach tell us whether in the course of that intensive engagement officials acting on behalf of this State worked with others to craft a treaty that would frustrate a referendum?

I wish to put another question to the Taoiseach-----

Thank you. The Deputy is over time.

-----because he did not give an answer yesterday, in respect of the magnitude of austerity this treaty will involve, given the 0.5% deficit ceiling. We already know that to reach 3%-----

You are over time, Deputy. Can I have a question?

-----the Taoiseach intends to impose cuts of the order of €8.6 billion over the next three years. Some economists reckon that in order to reach------

I am sorry, Deputy, you are over time. Thank you.

-----the 0.5% target a further €6 billion in cuts will be involved. Is that also the Taoiseach's estimate?

That is a separate question.

Given the level of that austerity how can the Taoiseach imagine-----

You are over time, Deputy. Please resume your seat.

-----it would be acceptable to collude with others to frustrate the democratic process in this jurisdiction?

I am surprised the Deputy ignores the Chair. She is over time.

Deputy McDonald confuses structural debt with the deficit in this country. I assure her the officials from this country who worked intensively over the period since Christmas with officials from other countries were not given a mandate to frustrate anybody's democratic rights but a mandate to maximise Ireland's interests. In the discussions that took place, the officials constantly referred to the position in so far as Ireland and its national interests were concerned, as did other countries.

When Deputy McDonald speaks of austerity programmes, she must understand this intergovernmental agreement and treaty is about getting political agreement for fiscal discipline, proper budgetary management and the running of the affairs of each country and its public finances in a proper fashion. It is about stimulating the Single Market and making available the potential for jobs and growth in a European Union of more than 500 million people, which is central to the agenda. Deputy McDonald should also bear in mind that central to the issue debated by the Irish officials and myself is that it is clear that nothing in this treaty affects the fact Ireland is in a programme until the end of 2013. This supersedes all of the discussions in so far as the intergovernmental treaty is concerned. This was endorsed again by the conclusions of Monday's meeting where the Heads of Government specifically referred to the fact that a country leaving a programme will continue to receive funding so long as it measures up to the conditions for which it signed on. That is the story.

Is the story in today's press right or wrong?

As far as our officials were concerned, their mandate was to maximise and protect Ireland's interests in these discussions.

And prevent a referendum.

Nothing in this treaty impacts on the fact that we are in a programme until the end of 2013. In the event that a country like Ireland were to require further external funding, it will be made available to it, as signed off on by the Heads of Government on Monday.

Thank you, Taoiseach. I call Deputy Ross.

I wish the Taoiseach would use the threat of a referendum more often when he goes to Europe. It is a powerful threat and obviously has an effect. We should have used it at the time of the IMF-EU deal which would have secured us better terms.

It was not this Government that signed up to that deal.

It is something the European leaders fear. The deal in Brussels on Monday was undoubtedly a lap of honour for Angela Merkel and Germany as the most powerful economic country in Europe.

That must be acknowledged. Citigroup described the deal as a compact for low growth. That leaves a great deal of unfinished business for Ireland and particularly for this Government.

There are two elements to my question. The first is the debt which the Taoiseach will say he will come to at the next summit. The second is unemployment, an issue which is not of great interest to Germany. Yesterday, it was announced unemployment in Germany had gone down from 6.8% to 6.7% while, at the same time as the Taoiseach came back with this deal, EUROSTAT announced unemployment in Europe is at its highest level since the euro was introduced in 1998.

A question, please.

I know the Taoiseach spoke with passion and interest about unemployment and small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, after the meeting in which the compact was agreed.

As a result of this compact for low growth, what prospect has Ireland got of lowering its unemployment rate? Has the Taoiseach delivered a single extra job from this summit? As a result of this compact, are there any prospects for a single extra job in Europe or will we have a higher unemployment rate?

I always thought Deputy Ross was in favour of balanced budgets.

He is not anymore.

I have referred before to the respect he is held in as a foremost economist. I would like to hear him comment now on whether, as an economist, he supports balanced budgets.

The Council meeting was divided into two sections. The first part was about the jobs agenda, youth unemployment, SMEs and the potential of the Single Market. There were contributions from most member states around the table on these central issues. I am not sure whether Deputy Ross was here yesterday but I want him to understand this will be a central feature of every agenda for every Council meeting from now on. European politics should be about the growth of economies and the creation of jobs and job opportunities.

In respect of Ireland having a higher than average rate of unemployment of young people, it is one of the countries that is required to have an action plan put in place by the end of April to focus on this matter. That is why the Government has already done serious work through the programme for action on job and business opportunities led by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, and the activation changes that will be introduced by the Minister for Social Protection in providing opportunities for people to move off the live register through retraining, upskilling or a change in career direction. Yesterday, 800 new jobs were announced, as the Deputy knows.

It is obvious that we have had a continuing crisis for two and a half years. One point brought to light at Monday's meeting was that serious moneys in EU funds, billions in many cases, were allocated to member states but were not drawn down. Individual member states did not put forward projects that could have met demand for infrastructure construction and created thousands of jobs. Ireland, I am glad to say, is one of the few countries that has almost exhausted its allocation of Structural Funds. By and large, good use was made of these in providing infrastructure.

There are 23 million SMEs across the European Union; coincidentally, there are 23 million people unemployed. In theory, if one could relate one to the other, one would solve the problem. Theories, however, do not always work in reality. Jobs, growth and employment opportunities are central to the European Council's agenda from now on. In June, there will be a report on best practice for SMEs across the Union. Issues such as the competitiveness league and the increased opportunities provided when a country raises it competitiveness have been raised. Ireland, I am glad to say, has made significant improvements in this respect in the recent past.

Job prospects are challenging. However, the political agreement now arrived at will allow the Union to review the extent of the firewall in March. As Ms Christine Lagarde said, if the firewall is big enough, people will not want to climb it in the first place.

Matters have moved on. There has been intensive work with Greece which expects to have its PSI, private sector involvement, matter sorted out in the next fortnight. There is no longer talk about the destruction of the euro or catastrophic defaults all over the place. The politics of the Council have focused on the conclusion of the text agreed.

In the beginning, the German Chancellor, Ms Merkel, wanted a full European treaty. That is not possible because of the withdrawal of Britain and now, because, the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic will not sign one because of constitutional problems there. Of the 27 member states, 25 have signed up. This is a significant advance which allows political leaders to focus on the jobs and growth agenda in their individual countries. We will do that here through the jobs action plan and activation measures, as well as a whole range of measures that will be included in the forthcoming Finance Bill.

I do not doubt for one moment the Taoiseach's or his Ministers' sincerity in wanting to create jobs. The reality is that it is difficult for an austerity package and a stimulus package to live together. It is unlikely there will be a stimulus package from Europe while this compact exists. He spoke about activation clauses and activation plans. Can he provide us with a forecast figure - as he did in respect of growth last week - for the unemployment rate in this country over the coming two to three years, or does he agree with the forecasts by the Department of Finance?

Even Deputy Ross in all his wisdom cannot indicate what that might be. It is down from 14.3% to 14.2% according to the latest figures. I want him to understand that the €17 billion capital programme which is laid out for the duration of this Government's lifetime is but part of the measures we are considering. We have been speaking with the European Investment Bank in regard to its potential and have held discussions with the social partners about the possibility of going after pension funds for investments.

In regard to other outside investors who are interested in doing business in Ireland, the interest in respect of the reputation of this country has certainly changed in the past six to eight months and decisions announced by a number of multinationals speak for themselves. At a time of great economic confusion, the fact that they are prepared to put their money where their mouths are based on the quality and the productivity of the Irish workforce, achieving the objectives they set for themselves and the increased competitiveness in the Irish economy clearly signals strong intent and confidence.

The smaller signs, such as the debt swap and the drop in yields from 14% to 6% or 7%, are important. They do not mean we have arrived where we want to be but they are significant signs of confidence. While there is a long way to go, the leaders of the Council can now begin to focus on the growth agenda and job provision. I made this point at the meeting. For example, if a firm in Ireland wants to patent a product on which it has carried out research, it costs approximately €32,000 to have that patent endorsed. That should not be the case. In the United States it costs €1,500 or €1,800. We want to move to a position where our young entrepreneurs and companies can avail of the opportunities and potential of the Single Market. For too long, Europe has been bogged down in inter-institutional wrangling, to the detriment of concentrating on what we should be doing, namely, making political decisions that would allow the economies of each of the individual members of the eurozone and the European Union to flourish. That is in our interest as an exporting nation and that is where our focus will be during our contributions at every Council meeting.

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