Primary Schools: Motion (Resumed)
The following motion was moved by Deputy Brendan Smith on Tuesday, 31 January 2012:
That Dáil Éireann:
— condemns the Government for introducing changes to the staffing schedules in 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools in Budget 2012;
— objects to this policy decision which unfairly targets schools with less than 86 pupils and which will result in a loss of 250 posts and an increase in the pupil/teacher ratio between now and 2013;
— further objects to the Government's covert approach to amalgamation and closure of 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools;
— condemns the severe impact this will have on gaelscoileanna, scoileanna Gaeltachta and minority faith schools in particular;
— further condemns the Government decision to apply the new staffing schedule based on 2011 enrolment figures;
— recognises that small schools are at the heart of communities;
— rejects the Government's:
— argument in relation to small schools having a more favourable pupil/teacher ratio which fails to take into account the challenges of multi-grade teaching; and
— claim that frontline services have been protected in Budget 2012 and recognises that teachers in 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools provide a critical frontline service;
— notes that:
— research has shown that learning outcomes in the smaller schools are on a par with learning outcomes in larger schools; and
— 47% of the 3,200 primary schools in the State have 5 teachers or fewer; and
— calls on the Government to:
— protect existing 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools this year and in the coming years;
— recognise the disproportionate impact this cut will have on gaelscoileanna, scoileanna Gaeltachta and minority faith schools and to ensure these schools are protected;
— protect the significant investment in small schools by Fianna Fáil Governments over the past 15 years which resulted in the doubling of the numbers of teachers working in small schools, and significant capital investment to allow for replacement, refurbishment and improvement of school accommodation across the country;
— explain the rationale for this decision and publish any impact analysis carried out by the Department of Education and Skills in relation to this decision and the effect it will have on 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools;
— recognise the important role of these schools in local communities and the damaging effect this will have on communities throughout Ireland;
— acknowledge the damaging consequences that will result from the budgetary changes to the staffing schedule which will lead to the forced amalgamation and closure of small schools in the coming years;
— accept the uncertainty that this is creating for local communities; and
— provide detailed clarification on the appeals mechanism for staffing changes.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"— recognises that:
— at a time of great strain on our public finances, we have to ensure that the very valuable, but limited resources available to the education system are used in the best way possible; and
— public services, including schools, must continue to be an important part of the social fabric of rural communities;
— notes that:
— as part of the Budget 2012 decisions, the number of pupils required to gain and retain a classroom teaching post in small primary schools will be gradually increased between September 2012 and September 2014;
— there are 3,200 primary schools across Ireland, of which over two thirds of those schools have more than 86 pupils and have much higher average class sizes than the small primary schools;
— small schools receive much more favourable capitation and other grant payments due to the practice of minimum payments: for example, schools receive a minimum capitation payment based on a 60 pupil enrolment, meaning that a school with 12 pupils receives the same capitation payment as a school with 60 pupils, in addition to the fact that construction costs per pupil for capital projects are much higher in small schools than in larger schools;
— at present, a two-teacher school with 12 pupils has an average class size of 1 teacher for 6 pupils, while in contrast, a typical ten-teacher school with 272 pupils has an average class size of 27.2 pupils;
— a value for money review on small primary schools is currently being finalised by the Department of Education and Skills, submissions for which, were invited from the public as part of a public consultation process during 2011 and a large number of responses were received;
— while the threshold for additional teachers in small schools will rise, a small school will still receive a second teacher with 14 pupils, a third teacher with 51 pupils and a fourth teacher with 83 pupils in September 2012; and
— as a result of these changes the average class sizes in small schools will still be as low as 7:1 in a two-teacher school, 17:1 in a three-teacher school and 20.75:1 in a four-teacher school in September 2012;
— acknowledges that:
— even when all of these phased increases are implemented, the threshold for small schools will still be significantly lower than the minimum of 28 pupils that was required for the appointment of a second teacher in schools prior to the mid-1990s;
— it is hoped that the three-year phasing in of this measure will allow communities the opportunity to debate the possibility of amalgamations or clustering arrangements within their communities;
— if amalgamations take place, they will be voluntary and follow decisions taken by local communities and not by the Department of Education and Skills; and
— the value for money review is part of the normal review processes undertaken by all Departments on an annual basis on selected areas of expenditure and is being conducted in line with the standard procedure for value for money reviews; and
— welcomes that:
— the Department of Education and Skills will be notifying schools in the coming weeks of the new staffing arrangements for the 2012/13 school year;
— small schools will continue to benefit from additional favourable supports as outlined above;
— the Budget measure relates to the allocation of teaching posts and is not a measure to close small schools;
— an independent Primary Staffing Appeals Board is available to all schools as part of the allocation process each year; and
— in particular, this appeals mechanism will be available to those small schools which are projecting increased enrolments that would be sufficient to allow them to retain their existing classroom posts over the longer term."
- (Minister for Education and Skills).
I support this motion. Although I have nothing personal against the people who put forward the motion, one would have to say they must have a neck as thick as the proverbial whatever to move it. In fairness, it is an excellent issue to raise, because something needs to be done about the situation.
Having listened to the Minister yesterday, it seems he does not intend under any circumstance to turn on this issue. We will see about that. All he should do is look at the number of people who have gathered outside the gate of this House tonight, with only 48 hours notice, to understand the importance of this issue for rural Ireland. He says he does not like the rural urban divide or to see the divisions being created by certain people. The biggest offender in this regard is the Minister himself. What he is doing to rural Ireland with his proposals demonstrates a complete bias against people in rural Ireland, nothing else. The Minister let out his true feelings yesterday on the future he sees for rural Ireland. He told us the worldwide trend is for people to move from rural to urban areas. Perhaps that is true, but the Minister should take a closer look at the reason for that.
If local train stations and hospitals are closed, if local schools are ruined, if people are prevented from cutting turf and if their local public transport system is destroyed, one can only expect that people will be forced to move from rural areas. They have no choice about it.
The Minister manipulated pupil-teacher ratios here yesterday. Everyone knows how he manipulated them to indicate that rural Ireland was getting a better deal than anywhere else. Nobody believes that. If we are to protect the future of rural Ireland and do not want a 100% exodus towards urban Ireland, instead of looking at the low numbers in the classrooms and asking why these small classes deserve so many teachers, we should turn the argument on its head and examine why there are so few people living in rural Ireland. We should solve that problem and then the Minister will not be able to stand up and ask how a school can be viable with such low numbers of pupils.
The notion that people want to leave rural Ireland is incorrect. I said on my first day in the Dáil that 19 out of the 20 people in my house had to emigrate. They left rural Ireland, but not because they wanted to. Some of them are now in Dublin and many of my friends are now in Dublin, Galway and elsewhere, but not one of these people wanted to leave rural Ireland. The reason they left is that Government after Government has been without a plan for rural Ireland. As a result, people had no choice but to leave it. I do not want to leave rural Ireland. Nobody wants to leave. If the problem is there are not enough pupils then we need to ensure there are enough pupils.
What sickened me most yesterday was the Minister's attitude to people who may not be as smart as he is. In fairness, he admitted he was not very quick off the mark when the Labour Party got back into Government. However, stating that if we were going to act like slow learners, he would have to put it up on the board a few times is not only unbecoming of a Minister for Education but is a resigning offence. Is the Minister telling us that he is intolerant of people who need to be told something twice or three times because, perhaps, they do not have a similar IQ level to him? Is he saying these people should not be tolerated? It is a bit low for a Minister for Education to goad the Opposition and suggest they are slow learners and, therefore, are somehow not right or good enough to be treated well. It is clear the Minister believes this. The fact he is taking help out of the classroom for, as he calls them, "slow learners", proves that.
The Minister is wrong on this. Believe me, we will make him change his mind.
Clearly, many decisions are being made on the basis of how numbers and money add up. Unfortunately, life is not like that and there are many other factors to consider. Although it may seem rational to make these cuts on the basis of numbers and money, the impact these cuts will have on the community reduce the merit of what is being done. We have seen so much of this same thinking applied in Ireland in the past few years that it is frightening. Some of the first things to go from rural areas were the small shops, when the big shops were allowed swallow them up and they received no protection. Small pubs are disappearing and now we are closing post offices, Garda stations and nursing homes and we are likely to be left with a wasteland.
There is a need for positive action from the Government in order to preserve the sense of community in the countryside. Rural areas need help, rather than the sort of treatment they have been receiving. Not alone that, many of our small schools cater for minorities. We have, for example, 200 Protestant schools in this country. We like to pretend that we look after minorities well. I met people from the Old Borough national school in Swords outside the House today. I am sure that for these people to come from these schools to protest here disrupts their lives, but the Government needs to take on board how important these issues are to them and how they feel about how their children are being treated.
In a recent statement to the Dáil the Minister stated that between 60,000 to 70,000 additional pupils would attend primary schools over the next five years. Due to the fact that our small primary schools will benefit on a pro rata basis from these numbers, I believe the strategy outlined in the budget is badly thought out. No proper cost-benefit analysis has been done and the proposals will create a huge urban-rural imbalance in the country. Millions of euro have been invested in our smaller schools over recent years for structural improvements, additional classrooms and exterior facilities. I ask the Minister to rethink seriously proposed policy due to the disastrous detrimental effect the current proposals will have on rural communities. These communities are already under siege due to lost services and infrastructure over recent years and the remaining small shops, post offices and Garda stations are diminishing monthly.
Now, in the past few weeks our smaller primary schools have come under serious threat. This is uncalled for. We have some control in this regard unlike other matters that are beyond the control of Government. The fate of these schools is in our hands.
In terms of the overall budget, the savings to be made on this are minuscule. I ask the Minister to go back to the drawing board, as he has done with the DEIS schools, so as to provide some sort of equality and equity to rural Ireland.
Recently, we attended a meeting on the Gaeltacht region in west Kerry and I am sure the issues raised affect all of the western seaboard schools, the last custodians of our heritage and our language. Irish is a minority language, but it is well respected throughout Europe and we should not forget that. The comprehensive linguistic study of the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht in 2007 recognised that category A areas, the strongest category Gaeltacht areas, have only 20 years to maintain the Irish language as their first language unless proper structures are put in place. If we do not retain all the small schools in the Gaeltacht and other rural areas, we are putting the final nail in that coffin.
I wish to share time with Deputy Healy-Rae.
I do not think you will have time, to be honest.
Then I will withdraw in favour of Deputy Healy-Rae.
You are very honourable. Deputy Healy-Rae, you have one minute.
I thank the Deputy very much for that. What is happening here is a thundering disgrace. I want to support the motion in the strongest way possible tonight. The Minister is a disgrace. The people who will back him tonight are a disgrace if they do not support this motion. I am asking the people who are thinking of voting for this tonight to vote for the children of Ireland, to vote for our rural schools, to vote for parents, for the teachers, for the principals, for the people who have worked so hard over the years to build up our small rural schools. They are the backbone of our society. They are the backbone of our communities and we do not want to lose them.
If the Minister and the people who are thinking of voting for him tonight go ahead with this, it will be one of the worst attacks that was ever made on rural Ireland. Shame upon them if that is what they do. This was the Government that had choices to make when it took power. What choice did it make? It made a conscious decision to attack the young and vulnerable people of Ireland. I am sorry to see all the empty seats here. It is a shame more Deputies are not here to hear this debate. I am asking the people who are considering voting for the Government tonight, in particular rural TDs, to give up the wishy-washy talk, stand out tonight and vote for this motion. Vote for the children and think of our schools. It is bad enough that we are all banjaxed in Ireland today, but I call on Deputies not to banjax our future generations, not to hurt our children and not to sell them down the river.
If our children have to emigrate in future for work, I do not want them to be going abroad and treated as second-class citizens. I want them to be intelligent. I want them to be highly educated so that they can go away and punch above their weight.
I thank Deputy Ross very much.
Order please. I call on Deputy Brendan Griffin.
I wish to share my time with Deputies Dara Murphy, Keating, Kyne, McNamara, Mitchell O'Connor, O'Mahony, McCarthy, Tom Hayes and Heydon.
It is very confusing to see the people proposing this motion tonight taking such high moral ground when they are the very people who created the difficulties that have this country and every Department in the position they find themselves today, namely, trying to find savings. I listened very carefully to what speakers had to say last night and to what Deputy Healy-Rae had to say this evening, and I find it unbelievable to think that people would have such neck to stand up here after the damage they have done to the country and the huge legacy they have left our children to bear over the coming generations. Less than a year after the general election, they stand up here and talk about the future plight of the country and what the children of Ireland have to put up with. It is unbelievable, disingenuous and wrong-----
They did not close rural schools.
I did not interrupt Deputy Healy-Rae. It is disingenuous and it is wrong, morally and politically wrong.
Since I became aware of these changes, as a rural based TD and as someone who attended a rural primary school and who taught in rural primary schools, I have been working to try to bring about changes in the areas that are causing particular difficulty to schools in my constituency and throughout the country. I have been engaging on a regular basis with both Ministers and their offices to try to bring about meaningful progress on this. This is something that has not come from the other side of the House. We have not had any meaningful progress. We have not had any proper alternatives and proposals. All we have had is negativity and bashing of the Government. We have had no solutions. Being in government is about finding solutions and that is what we are hoping to do.
That is not true. We have always put forward proposals.
I proposed to the Minister for Education and Skills that he should look at the retrospective element of this proposal, which would at least give schools a fighting chance to have their allocations based on their school numbers next year, rather than in September 2011. It is not fair and I want to see it addressed.
I also want to see special exemptions in cases where schools are so geographically isolated that amalgamation will never be an option in the future. I have a school like that in my constituency in Clohane in west Kerry. It is a very geographically isolated school and its management have made a strong case for not being able to amalgamate with any other school. There needs to be an exemption in such schools.
Four teacher schools in the Gaeltacht should not have to have a minimum of 86 pupils. It would be far more reasonable to review the number. We should not expect Gaeltacht schools with four teachers to jump from 76 to 86.
I have to call your colleagues.
Finally, I would like to say that Deputy Healy-Rae has attended public meetings all over Kerry, asking for me to vote against the Government.
It may suit your own political agenda because you would love to see a situation where the Kerry South constituency would be left without any Government TD.
You know what to do tonight. You are with the Government tonight, or you are with the children.
I can assure you, Deputy Healy Rae, that I am not going to neglect the people of the Kerry South constituency and leave them without Government representation. I am working from within the Government to bring about positive change.
I call on Deputy Dara Murphy.
I am working to bring about what is right in our constituency and I am not going to succumb to your selfish and personal political wishes by neglecting this Government and neglecting the people of my constituency. I will stand up for the people of my constituency. I will not neglect them.
I will not allow what went on for the last 14 years to go on in Kerry South.
I will not allow our economy to go down the swanny like you and your father allowed it to do.
You stood by when every poor decision was made over that 14 years and voted for them.
Deputy, resume your seat.
I am a man of principle and I will do what is right for my constituency. I will not neglect them in the future like you do-----
I call on Deputy Dara Murphy. Deputy, the microphone is off.
----- because you are selfish. You are taking this as a personal insult but you are looking for your own personal political gain.
Vote away with the Government if that is what you want to do.
On a point of order, the Deputy should withdraw that personal slur he cast on Deputy Healy-Rae.
I am not taking that. Deputy, resume your seat. I call on Deputy Murphy.
I am quite entitled to clear my name and defend my reputation.
The people of the Kerry South constituency, from Slea Head down to Ballinskelligs, know that I am working hard on this issue. I have given more time on this issue than any other in my political life over ten years.
Then vote for the motion tonight.
Deputy Griffin, you are wasting time for your colleagues. There is only three minutes per Deputy.
He should withdraw that personal slur.
Can the Deputy not stand up for himself?
He can of course. Deputy Griffin should withdraw that remark.
I need to talk about schools in Tipperary, so Deputy McGrath should hold off.
Please, Deputy Dara Murphy.
I appreciate that my time might be brief, due to the interruptions that came from the other side of the House, but I have to reject an allegation that was made by some of the Independent speakers, when they spoke about the children of this country, the young people of this country and the future of this country. I would like to say on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government that every ounce of energy and every act that we commit while steering this country forward is for our children and for the young people of this country. We are doing this to provide them with proper health care, jobs, social welfare if they need it and to restore to the young people of this country the economic sovereignty and independence that was removed by virtue of the last Government led by Fianna Fáil, in whose name this motion is tabled, and the self-motivated Independent TDs who supported them in government.
There are very difficult choices that every one of our Ministers has to take. The backbench Government TDs have the bottle to deliver on the mandate we were given by the Irish people to restore-----
Not a mandate that attacks children-----
What about the bondholders?
Please, I want no more of that.
-----and undo that damage for the young people of this country and the next generation. That is what we will do. The Government and Minister have not made any proposal to close any rural school.
We will commit to return to our young people this country's independence and sovereignty.
We will be under the European flag.
The Deputies Opposite can play all the political games they want but we will be judged by people in rural areas when we have delivered the country from the mess the Fianna Fáil Party created during 14 years in power.
I ask Deputies to show respect for speakers.
I listened to the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, speak to the motion last night. He inherited a crisis and, as he has stated in the House on numerous occasions and Members and the public are well aware, the country is bankrupt. He has also stated on numerous occasions, including in the Chamber last night, that not one school will close.
I value Private Members' motions, even though I am a member of a Government party, because it is important to hold the Government to account. I am disappointed, however, by the unhelpful and misleading language used in this debate. Do Deputies care about the damage they are doing to the integrity of the country or the sense of crisis and nervousness they are creating in communities?
When I was young my late mother used to say we had to make ends meet as a family. If businesses do not make ends meet, they will close and if the Government, including the Minister for Education and Skills, does not make ends meet, the current crisis will worsen. It did not help that a previous Deputy Healy-Rae held previous Governments to ransom for 14 years and contributed to the mess we are in today.
(Interruptions).
Deputy Michael Healy-Rae should be ashamed to make the comments he made earlier. I know in my heart and soul that the Minister is committed to and passionate about education. He will not close schools and will make a contribution while in government that will help restore the country's economic sovereignty. I am committed to that process, as is everyone present.
This debate has been taking place since the former Minister for Education and Science, Mary Coughlan, commissioned a value for money report and thereby acknowledged the need to review the school system and possibly save money in schools with fewer than 50 pupils. While the debate has focused on the quality of education and teacher numbers, it also raises the issue of how we secure the savings required under the EU-IMF programme given that 80% of the education budget is tied up in teachers' pay, which is protected by the Croke Park agreement. This is a major problem. The savings of such money as required between 2012 and 2014 will be difficult and has clearly given rise to concerns in rural areas about the viability of schools and communities.
Since before Christmas, I have visited schools across Connemara to listen to the concerns of parents and teachers. Schools where the number of teachers is being reduced from four to three under the threshold introduced last year have legitimate concerns. I met the Minister for Education and Science as part of a small delegation of Fine Gael Party Deputies and asked him to show flexibility and introduce an appeals mechanism for schools whose numbers are close to the threshold required to retain a teacher who would otherwise be lost under the new provisions. I appeal again to the Minister to introduce such a mechanism.
My colleague, Deputy Brendan Griffin, is fighting for small schools in south County Kerry and has been vociferous on this matter in the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party. For example, he led a debate on a motion on this issue a couple of weeks ago. The increase in the threshold for qualifying for a fourth teacher from 76 to 83 pupils for Gaeltacht schools is a large step. We are all on record as asking the Minister to review this measure. People have asked me at various meetings what I am doing about this issue. I have highlighted to the Minister the anomalies arising in respect of DEIS rural schools and retrospective nature of the measures and appealed to him to show flexibility. While I recognise that school amalgamations may proceed, a certain amount of flexibility could be shown. It is wrong, however, to suggest that schools should never close. The number of schools has declined from 6,000 at one point to 3,000. Not all of these closures, if any, took place in the past nine or ten months. They closed under Governments of all shades. It is important to recognise that Ireland has changed, while also acknowledging that all communities have a strong attachment to their local schools.
We must send a message that the Minister and Government will not close schools as such decisions are a matter for patrons and parents. In recent years, schools in Connemara have amalgamated. I am on record as seeking flexibility in this matter and I hope we will receive a positive response before the final decision is made.
A number of people from County Clare are in the Visitors Gallery and AV room. I pay tribute to them because they travelled to Dublin to show concern about the future of education. I assure them that every single Deputy on the Government benches shares their concern. In fairness and notwithstanding the play-acting we have witnessed this evening, every Deputy on the Opposition benches also shares that concern. Our visitors from east County Clare will be familiar with the following place names: Cloonusker, Coolin Bridge and Cappaghabaun. These are three townlands in Scariff, my parish, each of which had a national school until the 1970s when they were closed by a Fianna Fáil Minister for Education - he may even have been from County Clare - and replaced by one school in Scariff. I was in the first junior infants class in the new school. Each and every child from the three townlands I mentioned continued to receive an education after the schools amalgamated and every teacher in the three schools in question continued to teach in a very good school which I had the privilege to attend after the amalgamation took place. Similarly, schools in Slieve Anore, Corrakyle, Knockbeha, Gurtavaha and Dooglaun were closed and amalgamated in Flagmount national school. A similar merger occurred when schools in Killaloe, Tulla, Clonlara and Kilkishen amalgamated. Despite these mergers, our children continued to receive an education.
What the Government is proposing is much more modest than the closure of such a large number of schools. It is simply increasing the number of pupils required to receive a second teacher post from 12 this year to 14 in 2013, 17 in 2014 and 20 in 2015. The number of pupils required to receive a third teaching post will increase from 49 this year to 51 next year, 54 in 2014 and 56 in 2015, while the number of pupils required for a fourth teaching post will increase from 81 to 83 in 2013, 85 in 2014 and 86 in 2015. This is a modest step which, notwithstanding the histrionics we have seen tonight, does not threaten the fabric of rural Ireland or the future of GAA clubs in rural areas. That threat comes from the economic morass in which we find ourselves. I do not propose to comment on or play politics with that issue, however.
I will reiterate a comment made by the Minister last night. This debate provided him, as it provides me, with an opportunity to state categorically that this measure is not about closing schools. As the Minister acknowledged, schools play an important part in our communities, particularly in rural areas. He has been clear that the measure involves a simple and minor adjustment to pupil-teacher ratios and that small schools will continue to receive preferential ratios - the general pupil-teacher ration is 28:1. It is open to schools which find they are one, two or three pupils below the threshold to negotiate an amalgamation. This issue is no more about rural versus urban Ireland than it is about east versus west Clare.
It is about education and the future of the country.
As a former teacher who taught in a rural school for 15 years before moving to an urban school, I acknowledge the excellent education provided in many of our small schools.
I attended a small two-teacher school in Belmont, County Galway, and I had the opportunity recently to visit this school to raise its green flag and to see the great work in the school. I viewed their projects, their work and their wonderful céilí band in which children played harps and banjos. The school had the most up-to-date IT smart boards, a wonderful website and was a place of quality learning and teaching. We are, however, in difficult times. Some 80% of the annual budget is tied up in the salaries and pensions of teachers, SNAs and lecturers. As a nation, we must recognise there is currently a great strain on our public finances. We must ensure the very valuable but limited resources available to our education system are used in the best possible way.
I understand small schools are concerned if numbers drop. Last night the Minister for Education and Skills outlined the rationale behind raising the pupil-teacher ratio in rural schools. He also outlined an appeals system where small schools can appeal if they know their pupil enrolment will increase. I, along with my colleagues in Fine Gael and the Labour Party, had a two-hour meeting with the Minister last week and this appeals system was discussed. I am confident we can deliver this appeals system to schools if they are in danger of losing numbers and the following year the projections are that those numbers will increase. I welcome this confirmation from the Minister that the existing staff appeals-----
(Interruptions).
Could I speak, please? I welcome the confirmation from the Minister that the existing staffing appeals process will be accessible to small schools.
Order please, the speaker has the floor.
(Interruptions).
This will be of significant benefit to those schools projecting increased enrolment which would be sufficient to allow them to retain their existing classroom posts over the long term. This is the reality and these are the facts.
I am glad to make a contribution to this debate. I acknowledge the uncertainty and doubt among many parents and children in rural Ireland. In the past few days, I have been contacted by parents who think their schools will either close or lose teachers in the next few weeks. There has been some winding up of the issue but it is important that we peel away to find the reality and deal with it in a constructive manner.
I thank the parents and teachers who have engaged and put forward very reasoned and reasonable proposals on how this should be dealt with because that allowed those of us on this side of the House to bring those arguments to the Minister last week. The Minister dealt with the issue of the retirement of teachers of examination classes in secondary school and this can be done in this case also. What is important, however, is that flexibility is shown in dealing with this issue. I support anyone on any side of the House when he or she talks about retrospective numbers and how that is dealt with - in other words, the number of pupils last September should not determine the number of teachers next September. There should be a real appeals system and not one where nothing changes regardless of the situation. That is very important. I would also say that one size does not fit all. Amalgamations are not possible in many areas.
It is important to deal with the problem in a reasoned and calm fashion. To a certain extent, it is sometimes difficult to do that when dealing with a very emotive subject. Just as some parents thought schools would be closed next week, it is important for teachers, parents and pupils to realise this issue will not be won or lost tonight. There is a long game involved and it is important we get an acceptable solution which will leave rural schools at the heart of our communities for many years to come.
I will begin by quoting a statistic. In 1924, there were 5,700 schools, 80% of which were one or two-teacher schools. We debate this very important subject in the middle of the greatest economic crisis with which this country has ever had to deal. We are relying on our European neighbours to pay our bills. Some of the indications are that we are heading in the right direction but some difficult decisions have had to be made and difficult decisions will remain to be made to get us back on the right economic track.
Some 80% of the Minister's budget, which was approximately €8 billion last year, was spent on pay and pensions in that sector. That leaves approximately €1 billion with which to play around. That really ties the Minister's hands behind his back. It is very difficult to find savings within that very narrow economic constraint.
It is Government policy to support the Croke Park Agreement but it is not policy to support wage militance. Now is the time for trade unionists to lead and to bring their membership with them and to stop hiding behind children to advance a very narrow avarice objective. I want to reiterate that point.
(Interruptions).
This debate is about educating children.
There has been already a cut of-----
Order please, Deputy McGrath. The speaker has the floor.
Deputy Finian McGrath would do well to remember that he supported Bertie Ahern. He donned a substitute jersey to support Bertie Ahern, a man who is associated with the economic collapse. I will take no lectures from Deputy Finian McGrath.
I have spent my life supporting education.
Deputy McGrath, the speaker has the floor.
He took his 30 pieces of silver-----
(Interruptions).
Deputy McGrath, the Chair is on his feet.
-----so I will not take a lecturer from him. He is a Bertie Ahern-ite.
The Government is destroying the education service.
Deputy McGrath, the Chair is on his feet.
Deputy McGrath did not have the honour or the integrity to put Fianna Fáil on his badge because he is a political coward.
I will not take any guff from the Deputy.
Deputy McGrath, the Chair is on his feet.
He is a political coward.
The Government is destroying the education services.
He should run off to Drumcondra and get Bertie to tickle his belly like he did for the four years he supported him.
(Interruptions).
The speaker has the floor and should be afforded the respect of the House.
He abandoned him when it suited him.
I will not accept this waffle.
Deputy McGrath, please, I will not accept you interrupting a speaker. Deputy McCarthy, please.
Deputy McCarthy should get off the stage.
Deputy Finian McGrath would do well to run back to Drumcondra and get his belly tickled by Bertie. He was so happy to have it done for the four years he supported him.
(Interruptions).
The element of retrospection about this decision needs to be taken on board because if we wants to make decisions in this area, we need to ensure there is a consultative process and an avenue for people to lodge their issues and to advance their cause with the Minister. Deputy O'Mahony is right that no one size fits all. Individual cases will need to be considered and the Minister needs to be cognisant of that.
Is the Croke Park Agreement back on the table?
The Minister indicated last night that he would be cognisant of that. This Government will strive to restore our reputation abroad and to restore our economic fortunes and we will take no lectures from Fianna Fáil lightweights like to two McGraths, who are insult to this topic.
We are living in extremely challenging times. The most important element of this debate is not any one of us, the teachers or the schools but the children. Week in, week out young university educated people are leaving from Dublin, Knock, Shannon and Cork Airports and are going to Perth and the United States. Some of my nephews and niece and my sons have gone.
It is sad to see them go but I am proud of our education system.
The Minister for Finance said it was a lifestyle choice,
Could we have order please, Deputy McGrath? The Deputy has the floor. Please afford him the respect of the House.
I want to talk about four schools in my constituency of South Tipperary, whose representatives I met with tonight. They are at Cloheen, Burnport, Duhalla and Newtown Upper. They all know that it is hysteria talking about schools being closed.
That is what they told me.
I did not interrupt the Deputy.
The speaker has only 30 seconds left, so Deputy McGrath should afford him the opportunity to speak.
Please allow me to make this point to the Minister. I understand from his speech last night that there is flexibility.
There is no flexibility. The Minister said he is not for turning.
The speaker has the floor.
I would implore that the enrolment date should be changed.
If it is changed - that is the way to do it - it will solve the problem for a huge amount of those involved. It would give a sense of direction.
Will you be voting for us?
No. It is good that we have been given the chance to discuss this tonight. I commend Fianna Fáil Deputies and admire the way they sit over there without cheer-leading and acting the clown like those fellows are doing in the corner. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. I implore the Minister to take back to the Department that proposal to change the enrolment date, which would be a huge improvement on where we are.
I want to avoid the political point-scoring that has been going on here this evening and be proactive in the limited time available. The reduction of teacher numbers in small primary schools involves a loss of dedicated learning support and resource teachers in such schools through a pool basis. One small three-teacher school in my own Kildare South constituency is currently allowed to combine its general allocation model of learning support hours with NCSE resource hours to give it a full-time staff member on the premises for a 25-hour week. The change will see it lose the full-time teacher to a panel, but two part-time people will be employed to do the same work shared between other schools. I can see that it might make sense in some areas, but it will involve additional mileage and travel expenses. It will mean, however, that such teachers will not be in the classroom all the time, which is where they are needed.
This decision should be taken in light of the value for money review. I would like to see the facts and figures showing that this change will save money or, at the very least, not increase costs. Where are the savings to be made? The Minister should examine this proposal to ensure that it is practical and of value when it comes through.
I congratulate the Minister for finding savings of €80 million in an extremely difficult budgetary situation. It is a major achievement not to have touched the overall pupil-teacher ratio If that had been touched that is what tonight's debate would be about because it would have had a huge impact all over the country. While other aspects have arisen, we should not lose sight of that achievement. The Department and the Minister are facing huge difficulties. I look forward to continuing to work with the Minister to proactively discuss such issues when they arise. The issue should not be used as a political football, as has been the case in some instances tonight.
There is a certain inevitability that debates in Private Members' time can go off at a tangent. It is important, however, to return to the real issues involved. They are encapsulated in the motion moved by our party's education spokesmen, Deputy Brendan Smith, as follows:
That Dáil Éireann:
— condemns the Government for introducing changes to the staffing schedules in 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools in Budget 2012;
— objects to this policy decision which unfairly targets schools with less than 86 pupils and which will result in a loss of 250 posts and an increase in the pupil/teacher ratio between now and 2013;
— further objects to the Government's covert approach to amalgamation and closure of 1, 2, 3 and 4 teacher schools;
— condemns the severe impact this will have on gaelscoileanna, scoileanna Gaeltachta and minority faith schools in particular;
— further condemns the Government decision to apply the new staffing schedule based on 2011 enrolment figures; and
— recognises that small schools are at the heart of communities.
Some 47% of the 3,200 primary schools in the State have five teachers or less. This year, small schools will be facing the loss of 100 posts, while in 2013 this figure will rise to 250, which is unacceptable. The proposal does not take account of the geography and catchment area of many schools, particularly in the west, as well as in my own constituency of Louth and elsewhere around the country.
This proposal will lead to forced amalgamations and closures. Research has shown that children who attend smaller schools excel in their social and general emotional development. There is much greater parental and community involvement in social activity and the general maintenance of school buildings. Over the last 15 years, there has been a huge investment by the Department of Education in many of the schools we are talking about in this debate. It would seem to be a significant waste of money to proceed with the Government's proposal. There are many examples of schools that were completed in recent years which may well face closure as a result of this proposal.
There will be a serious and disproportionate impact on minority faith schools, such as those of the Church of Ireland. I am sure there is one in virtually every constituency. They will be seriously and adversely affected by the proposal before us. If some of those schools are forced to amalgamate or close, where will their ethos be upheld? The Minister for Education and Skills has placed considerable emphasis on the ethos of our schools, but it will clearly suffer. Has the Department carried out an impact analysis of this proposal? If so, will it be made available to Members of this House? Will an appeals mechanism be built into this project?
There is an inevitability that in individual cases schools will be seriously affected. The Minister needs to clarify that point precisely.
Will boards of management be in a position to appeal individual decisions to the Department of Education and Skills? We await clarification on that point.
I compliment Deputy Brendan Smith for bringing this important motion before the House. I welcome the visitors in the Visitors Gallery. I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this critical motion for the future of our small schools. Such schools are predominantly in rural areas and include minority faith schools. The proposed cuts are discriminatory and extremely regressive. As a proud past-pupil of a small two-teacher school - which later became a one-teacher school - I can speak tonight with personal experience of this subject. That experience was a very positive one. The educational establishment I attended was not only a school, but also a community facility. It was a venue for community meetings such as neighbourhood watch and community games. It was the lifeblood of the rural area. In my experience, most of the work carried out in small schools, such as maintenance, gardening and the board of management was all done on a voluntary basis.
We are under no illusions about the serious economic difficulty currently being experienced both at home and abroad. Earlier this week, the Taoiseach was part of the team that negotiated the inter-governmental treaty to help secure the eurozone's future. We share the view that our deficit must be brought down to 8.6% of GDP by the end of the year. We published a fully-costed budget on how we would achieve that, but we totally disagree with the discriminatory manner in which the Government is pursuing this agenda. On Tuesday, the Taoiseach told this House: "It is for us here, not for Europe, to decide how we should close the gap in spending over taxation". In the last edition of the Sunday Independent Colm McCarthy asked where is the reform agenda on which the Government fought the last election. He used the example of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, reversing his predecessor’s decision to abolish a quango that cost €3 million a year. The Minister did that at the same time as he launched a savage attack on rural Ireland and people of minority faiths. What would €3 million do for our small schools? What happened to the Minister giving people a choice of patronage? This decision will reduce choice, as minority faith schools will close. Where are the savings to be made? In the past decade we have witnessed major investments in personnel and physical infrastructure. If schools amalgamate, as is the Minister’s desire, what will happen to these buildings? Where will the funds come from to provide extensions to new, amalgamated schools? The programme for Government was negotiated in the full knowledge of our financial circumstances and refers to protecting front line services. Is the Minister telling the people in the Visitors Gallery, outside and throughout Ireland that teachers in small schools are not front line services? We are holding the Government to account for what it promised in the programme for the Government, not the lies the parties told in the election.
Fianna Fáil told a fair few lies.
The Minister is disingenuous when he uses the argument that small schools are somehow better off than larger schools in terms of class size. This ignores the challenges faced by small schools in terms of teaching children of different ages, grade and ability in one classroom setting. I know because I was there.
Last night, the Minister accused us of creating a new, manufactured and artificial division in rural Ireland. Let us look at the communities that have travelled here tonight to express their anger. Is it artificial? It is not just Members on this side of the House who are totally opposed to these measures. The Association of County and City Councils unanimously passed a motion calling for the reversal of these cuts. The association is representative of members of all political parties and none and, just as the Government parties hold a majority in the House, they hold one in that association. Members of the Government parties had busloads of people protesting outside the gates of Leinster House last week and were extremely disappointed-----
The Deputy's time has concluded.
-----when neither the Minister, the Minister of State nor any officials turned up to meet them. The final date for the submissions on the value for money review was 18 March and, 12 months later, the Minister talks about publishing the report and having a debate on it.
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Why was there no debate before this announcement? So many teachers and members of boards of management took their time to demonstrate how savings could be made.
Once again, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, has gone bullheaded and taken this decision without any consultation. I call on Deputies-----
The Deputy's time has concluded.
-----to continue the commitments made at public meetings the length and breadth of this country.
Deputy Troy's time is up.
Certain Deputies in certain schools in Longford-Westmeath said that this would not happen, that they would not support it and that they were with the schools 110%. I hope those Deputies are 110% behind the schools tonight.
We were cleaning up the mess left by Deputy Troy's party.
Where is Deputy James Bannon now?
I commend Deputy Smith on proposing this motion and I would like to see the student at the centre of the debate on education. I call on the Minister to protect the most vulnerable in primary education, particularly to continue the supports in the classroom, including support for special needs. We all agree that much more needs to be done. I would like to see more understanding and a greater importance given to the role of small schools. There does not seem to be any education policy other than amalgamations and closures and this is not good enough. Rural communities are very concerned that increased class sizes will result from forced amalgamations of rural schools. Rural schools are institutions like the Garda station and post office and are part of the nucleus of rural life. If we are to improve literacy and numeracy, as the Minister said he is committed to doing, we should retain our current class sizes and devote more resources to primary education. The reality is that small schools have been singled out for the bulk of education cuts in this budget. Schools that are already marginalised will lose teachers from September. Although there is a need to make savings, people cannot understand why the savings have a disproportionate burden on rural communities.
Where will the money come from for the new school buildings if there are to be school closures and amalgamations? Where will the money be found for school transport when savings have been made in recent years in school transport? The school transport charges doubled from €50 to €100 and the primary family payment doubled to €220. These measures will have a major impact on families.
The staffing schedule has been referred to by many Deputies. Why is it based on September 2011? A member of the board of management at St. Gabriel's national school, Kilconnell, told me there are two children more in the school than last September. In Castlehackett, County Galway, there were 49 pupils in September and there will be 51 in September 2012. People are asking why they cannot retain a third mainstream teacher in the best interests of the pupils.
Another issue concerns the decoupling of learning support and resource teaching. Where the posts are amalgamated, unnecessary travel expenses are eliminated and wholetime teaching positions are created rather than having two teachers running between schools on a part-time basis. In a typical three-teacher school in County Galway, the general allocation gives them 0.8 of a full-time position for teaching support. The teacher must find five hours in another school. There are six and a half extra hours of resource teaching in the school and a visiting teacher must come in. These are ridiculous proposals and I hope the Minister will examine them. When the INTO made a submission last March, it pointed out this issue, along with the issue of minority faith schools and smaller Gaeltacht schools. Tá sé le feiceáil go soléir go bhfuil dul chun cinn na Gaeilge bainte amach ag scoileanna beaga agus nach mbeadh an Ghaeilge comh láidir i gceantair gan na scoileanna beaga.
Small primary schools have enriched our society for many centuries and should be maintained and fostered. I would like the Minister to examine the overall budget, not just the primary education budget. The Minister's backbenchers say that primary education is the Cinderella of education. The Minister should examine the budget and reverse the cuts.
I thank Deputy Brendan Smith for tabling this motion. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. As the Deputy of a predominantly rural constituency, with 14 schools with four teachers or fewer in Offaly, I support the ethos, dedication, commitment and quality of education in these schools. They are vital cogs in, and an integral part of, our communities. They have been allowed to continue to prosper in the delivery of education to children. I was interested in the comments of the Minister last night. The contents of budget 2012 pertaining to education have been debated in successive motions in recent weeks. With the help of his colleagues, Deputies Jim Daly and Keaveney, the Minister sought to politicise the argument in favour of cuts in education. This motion follows on motions in previous weeks concerning cuts in DEIS schools, cuts in career guidance counsellors and increases in pupil-teacher ratios in one-teacher, two-teacher, three-teacher and four-teacher schools. This discriminates against rural Ireland, schools in Gaeltacht areas and minority faith schools. The Minister stated he did not want to see or contemplate amalgamation. He did not want to see or contemplate school closures but he would contemplate them if they were put under his nose. He would facilitate and help them through the process. This was supported by Deputy Jim Daly when he spoke, saying that he would welcome a situation where one school would replace a cluster of schools, despite having stated moments earlier that his rural school would not be affected. It seems it does not matter once it is not in his constituency. This appears to the mantra of many Deputies. When the Minister saw fit to politicise this debate, he saw fit to say his hands were tied and he was led by the troika. He said he had to make cuts in education and predicates all his answers on education with this mantra.
He, his party or his partners in Government had no such predications when they sought election. They campaigned on the basis that they would not pay bondholders, which was their first U-turn. They campaigned on the basis that they would not increase pupil teacher ratios, which was their second U-turn. They campaigned on the basis that there would be no increase in third level fees, another U-turn. They campaigned on the basis that the severe cuts to pay and social welfare which were made by the previous Government would be reversed, something which was not carried out and therefore is a U-turn. The Minister and party campaigned on the basis that they would reverse the universal social charge, another U-turn.
In the course of his speech the Minister condemned Deputies for seeking to divide urban and rural societies. I can assure the Minister he can take full credit for that. He proposed cuts to DEIS schools and measures which will lead to school closures. He will leave secondary schools without career guidance counsellors. He increased the cost of rural school transport, not by 10%, 15% or 70% but by 100%. He decreased student grants and insisted that farm buildings be assessed for those applying for student grants. These kinds of actions are creating the divide he talked about.
In his speech yesterday the Minister reverted to another favourite mantra, attacking Fianna Fáil and its record on education. We have no problem in meeting that attack head-on. When the Minister spoke in that regard he failed to say that since 1997 Fianna Fáil invested €180 million in 4,000 rural schools. He did not mention that Fianna Fáil doubled the number of rural teachers since 1997. The Government should check the information.
The Minister sought to dampen such advancements, despite the fact that those now in Government said we were not doing or spending enough. He sought to dampen our advancements and compared it to buying elections.
Deputies should have a bit of respect. I and my colleagues on this side of the House make no apology for the investments we made in education. We expect an apology from the Government for the misleading manner in which it sought election and the subsequent abandonment of supposed core policies in education. Make no mistake about it, the Government, by virtue of the last budget, has begun to make its own choices and decisions and will be judged on them in the future. In arriving at those decisions and making those choices education is well down the list of priorities.
I remind the House that the speaker in possession has the floor and should be allowed to speak.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate and thank my colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, for tabling the motion. We have had several Private Members' motions on education. I do not understand why the Government and Minister have carried out such an onslaught on education.
I refer to a letter I received, which is not party political, from a school principal in my constituency of Laois. It states:
I am writing to you as a concerned principal of a small rural school. As you will be aware, in budget 2012 it has been decided by the present Government that the people teacher ratio for two, three and four teacher schools is to be consistently increased over the next three years. This measure will bring about a loss of hundreds of teaching posts and the possible closure of two teacher schools throughout the country.
They are not my words, they are the words of a school principal who has gone to the trouble of writing a letter to all local public representatives to highlight the issue because parents and the wider public may not be aware of the particular details of the matter until it affects an individual school sometime in the future.
The most worrying aspect of this issue is that in budget 2012 the Minister said the readjustment to staffing schedules is being phased in to encourage small schools to assess their options for amalgamation. We know the Minister will not force amalgamation because he knows it is a matter for boards of management. He will put schools in an impossible position where they will be faced with Hobson's choice, namely having to close and amalgamate with other schools several miles away.
We all know the ratio for two teacher schools has been changed from 14 to 20, which is a massive increase. In three teacher schools the ratio will increase from 51 to 56 over the next two years and to retain a fourth teacher the number of pupils required will increase from 81 to 86. Throughout the country, 47% of schools have five teachers or less and 659 have fewer than 50 pupils. In County Laois the proportions are much higher because it is not a city area. There are a number of large schools with ten or 20 teachers but well over 20 schools in rural areas of the county have fewer than 50 pupils. They are under threat.
If the Minister can explain the financial rationale behind amalgamations I would be prepared to discuss the matter with him. The mechanics of closing a school in a rural area are complex. If there are two schools in a parish one will close and an extension will have to be built in the other to take care of the ten, 20 or 30 pupils that have moved. The principal of the amalgamated school will retain his or her salary, therefore two salaries will have to be paid. A bus will have to provide additional transport and there will be no change in capitation fees. What is the real cost of closing schools? There seems to be a particular bias against rural areas and small schools.
Various colleagues have mentioned the budget proposals to amalgamate learning support and resource teaching provision will affect small schools. Deputy Kitt mentioned the issue and provided examples. They cannot be combined because it would lead to a split in the service and mean that a school may not have sufficient hours for learning support or resource teaching. It will have to be provided by different people and involve travel time between different schools when time should be spent in the classroom with pupils who need particular services.
In recent weeks there have been several debates on DEIS schools. The letter to which I referred is from a rural DEIS school. We have concentrated on DEIS schools in urban areas but those in rural areas have been attacked. The Minister has said he will make amendments and deal with the issue on a one-to-one basis but that has not happened. We have heard empty words and seen no action.
Several guidance counsellors were in the Visitors Gallery during a recent debate. There is a generational problem in the House in regard to guidance counsellors. When several members of the Cabinet went to school there was no such thing as a guidance counsellor and they do not know what they do. A member of the Government asked guidance counsellors what they do, other than fill in CAO forms. This demonstrated to me that senior members of Government do not understand or appreciate them.
As has also been mentioned, there will be additional school transport costs for people in rural areas. I hope against hope that the Minister will reconsider.
I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate. I and every other Deputy in the House feel strongly about this issue. What is the most important thing we can give our children? It is an education and start in life.
It is absolutely disgraceful to hear some of the commentary from Deputies berating other Deputies who have an elected mandate to come in here and represent the views and worries of people and children. We in Fianna Fáil have a mandate, as do Independent Deputies and those in government. Deputies have asked how we dare to table a motion.
The aim of the motion is to protect one, two, three and four teacher schools. The Government does not understand that. If four teacher schools lose one teacher it is a 25% cut in teaching capacity, not just insignificant budgetary arithmetic. If the Government says that will not lead to the closure of schools, it is very misguided. It should return to local communities to hear the truth. All the people in the Visitors Gallery are saying the same thing, as are all the people outside. The Government has its mandate and we have ours, but we have a common goal, that is, to represent the people who elected us. Members opposite should not challenge anybody's mandate in the name of protecting their party position because they are now in a position of responsibility and must make choices to establish priorities. They are simply not prioritising small schools.
Let us return to the rhetoric of budget day. Members opposite were all on message on that day stating there were no cuts to allowances or welfare rates. If they ask the people in the disability sector, the unemployed, those on CE schemes or those in rural areas whether they are being attacked, they will be told they are.
The Government told people before the election that front-line services would not be cut. A consultant in Limerick, a chairman of the Labour Party in the city, stated the cuts to front-line health services are putting people's lives at risk. Despite this, the Taoiseach completely rubbished this in the House for two weeks in a row. What does that say about democracy? What does it say about the Government's followers? Members opposite should not be challenging us in the House in this regard.
Has the Government produced an impact analysis of the cuts? It has not. When it suits it, it will fall back on an impact analysis. The Members opposite sat in opposition for years requesting that the capital allowance schemes for hotels and apartment blocks be cut. When they got into government, they relied on an impact analysis, although it was not to reverse the capital allowances in that they looked after their own builder buddies when it suited them. They should not tell us it is all about protecting rural areas.
When the Government Members talk about closing small schools, which is their agenda, they should at least be honest and up-front with people. They are not at present. They are trying to close small schools by stealth.
They are trying to close the small schools by stealth and are saying the Opposition is scare-mongering.
(Interruptions).
When I was on the other side of the House, I went to the public meetings and did not wind people up. The Members opposite should take my lead, engage with the people who elected them and hear their concerns.
Government Members said this motion is wrong and immoral although it seeks to represent people's views. They said people's journey here was a waste of time. They said they should not exercise their legitimate right to protest and have their voices heard; they said this was a waste of time also. They said people democratically elected to this House do not have a mandate and that they are winding people up.
I will tell the Members what is wrong. They are wrong to say public representatives cannot engage in democracy.
The Deputy should come up with something constructive. At least we are-----
They are wrong to state people should not engage with their public representatives. They are wrong to behave like a dictatorship. They may have large numbers and carry on like a dictatorship but they should remember that, throughout the world, dictators were knocked over by the will of the people. The people will eventually rise up against the Government.
The Government is targeting the most vulnerable people in respect of rural schools. It did not say to the schools before the election that it would make the budgetary decision it made. It was not honest with the people. It is targeting small schools, gaelscoileanna, Gaeltacht schools and minority-faith schools. It should at least be up-front with them. This is another of the Government's anti-rural measures. It should at least be up-front and engage in an act of solidarity. Members opposite should vote for the motion and not be so mealy-mouthed about the matter.
It is a disgrace that-----
Excuse me, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor. Could we have order on both sides of the floor? Time is limited.
If the Labour Party kept quiet, we would not have to shout so loudly.
Order, please. I call the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, who should be allowed the floor.
I wish to conclude on behalf of the Minister for Education and Skills, who is on a North-South ministerial visit in Armagh this evening. He made very clear yesterday that the very difficult financial and budgetary context in which Ireland is operating, which legacy we inherited from the last Fianna Fáil-led Government, is creating an incredible challenge that must and will be faced up to by the current Government.
Let me reiterate the essential realities that obtain. The Government rejects the sensationalist and nakedly opportunistic claims that have been made continually over recent weeks about closing small schools. The only thing that is changing for small schools is that the average class size will no longer be as advantageous as it has been in the past.
No school likes to lose a teacher - that is quite simple and straightforward - but it is wrong for a desire to preserve the status quo in regard to teacher numbers and class sizes to result in unnecessary anxiety in local communities over the future of their schools. It is important that the staffing levels in small schools be affordable and sustainable, particularly in these very difficult and challenging times. In this regard, it is not sustainable to continue with advantageous staffing arrangements which, for example, provide a second classroom teacher in a school with just 12 pupils.
Concerns were raised during the debate yesterday evening about the retrospective element of the budget measure. Deputies Griffin and Kyne made specific reference to this again this evening. The Minister stated very clearly in the debate yesterday evening that the existing staffing appeals process will be accessible to small schools. Schools that are projecting increased enrolments that would be sufficient to allow them to retain their existing classroom posts over the longer term should take particular note of this fact. The details on how the system will operate will be made clear in my Department's forthcoming circular on the staffing arrangements for the 2012-13 school year, which will be issued shortly to all schools.
Why did the Minister of State not publish it before making the cut?
I am surprised that Fianna Fáil has raised this matter on Private Members' business given its stated view in 1992, when it was in government-----
(Interruptions).
The Members should respect the speaker who has the floor.
It stated we should move towards the eight-teacher school as the ideal norm for urban areas and towards a four-teacher school as the ideal norm for rural areas.
(Interruptions).
The Minister of State should be allowed to continue without interruption.
This idea would have seen the forced amalgamation and closure of all schools with fewer than four teachers.
It never happened. When did it happen? That was Progressive Democrats policy.
Members of Sinn Féin should listen closely to the words of their Minister for Education, Mr. John O'Dowd, who spoke about the rationale behind an audit he is carrying out on rural schools in Northern Ireland. He stated: "We have too many schools that do not have the capacity to give children the broad and rich educational experience they deserve". He added:
We cannot plan our future education system on the needs of school buildings. It will be based on the needs of the pupils in those schools.
Moreover, he said "A third of our 863 primary schools have fewer than 100 children enrolled" and that "difficult, sometimes unpopular, but necessary decisions" will have to be taken to reduce that number.
Is the Minister of State proposing that we follow the policy of the Administration in the Six Counties?
This is recognised by Deputies in all parties. The Government fully acknowledges this and states clearly in its amendment to the motion that public services, including schools, must continue to be an important part of the social fabric of rural communities. However, this does not mean rural schools can simply stand still or should never have their staffing levels changed to levels that are more affordable and sustainable in these very difficult and challenging economic times.
We must all work hard to ensure our public services are affordable and sufficiently flexible and adaptable to meet the needs of the country in the 21st century. As the Minister stated last night, this means improving our health system with fewer nurses and doctors, maintaining our infrastructure with fewer engineers and architects and educating our children with fewer teachers.
Small schools always have been and will continue to be a key feature of our educational landscape. I have trust and confidence in the capacity of school principals and teachers to play their part in making the best use of their available resources to achieve the very best possible educational outcomes for their pupils.
I wish to share time with Deputy Dara Calleary.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Like others, I thank my colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, for bringing forward this important motion. All of us in our constituencies have in recent weeks since the budget been contacted by parents and teachers who are worried about the future of their schools. This is as a result of a budget which unfairly targeted elements of rural Ireland. We have had an opportunity to discuss some of the other issues here on various motions in the past month. The approach of the Government to rural Ireland was never more evident than in regard to the impact this measure will have on the small rural schools, particularly those with under 86 pupils, and the way in which they are being treated and targeted.
The proposed cuts will irreparably damage the education model that has been built up by successive Governments. I do not wish to divide along party lines today. In Government, the parties opposite did good things for small rural schools, as we did when in Government. Collectively, we did much for education. We did so because we believed in the primacy of education, in its capacity to set a foundation for our young people and to give them an education foundation at primary level that allowed them to go on to be industry leaders, teachers, doctors, nurses and public servants.
To reach a capacity to allow this economy to return to a state of health, we will need the brightest and best. We will need to give them the best chance. The parties opposite lectured us on this a couple of years ago when we had to increase the pupil-teacher ratio. That was a tough decision but it was fair, honest and upfront. The Government, through its budgetary process, talked about retaining the pupil-teacher ratio and I heard the Minister say again last night that there would not be an increase in that ratio. However, there will be an increase in the pupil-teacher ratio in small rural schools.
In my constituency alone, 63 schools are targeted for these cuts. This is particularly difficult when one considers that these schools have worked well, delivered results and provided value for money. Like my colleague, Deputy Troy, I am the product of a small, two-teacher rural school, and I am delighted my principal is in the Visitors Gallery tonight. Those schools worked diligently but the fact is that if we are going to ultimately close these schools, or if we are going to strip out the teachers who are currently there, we will be offering a very different educational model.
This is deeply unfair. Many families moved back to rural Ireland to give their children the same opportunities they had. They wanted to bring them up in the rural way of life. Some of them sacrificed career opportunities in order to give their children those choices. What the Government is now doing is changing the goalposts. The Government is saying to those people who bought sites, acquired mortgages, built houses and paid their taxes that it has something different in mind for them, that it will close the school their children were attending and will impose on them an increased cost, increased journey time and a much poorer capacity to live and work in their rural communities.
These people made sacrifices because they believed in repopulating rural areas. The area I come from, covering parts of east Clare and west Clare, had suffered the drain towards the urban areas, where people travelled in order to gain employment or seek education, and they stayed there. Over the past ten to 15 years, people have moved back into those communities because they value the quality of life there. The increased journey time, the increased costs and the closure of those schools will come back to haunt all of us.
I do not want to politicise this issue. As others have said, we all have a mandate. However, we have a duty to give our children the best possible opportunity. They are the leaders of the future. The education sector is a challenging environment, particularly for teaching staff. When we consider the difficulties of operating in a multi-class environment, although the Government is suggesting that, somehow, the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio can happen and the same level of education can be attained and provided, it cannot.
The Deputy's time is concluded.
I am pragmatic. I understand many of the Deputies opposite will not vote against the Government tonight. However, they have an opportunity to encourage the Minister to change this decision.
To finalise my position, let us clear away this notion that an appeals process is going to resolve everybody's problems. I noticed many Deputies hanging on that point. It will not happen. It will perhaps provide the Government with an opportunity to say it was the appeals officer's decision and nothing to do with the Government or the Minister.
That is unfair and unwelcome. The Government should clear up the mess and state clearly what it is doing. I appeal to all Members, particularly the Government representatives in my constituency-----
The Deputy should conclude.
If they have the strength of the conviction they show tonight by voting with the amendment, they should publish the list of schools they are prepared to see closed.
I thank my colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, and all of our colleagues on this side of the House as well as the Deputies on the other side of the House who over the course of the last two days have made some constructive suggestions and contributions on this issue. We have all had the chance to highlight the very important role small schools, gaelscoileanna and schools of minority faith are playing on this island. However, we on this side of the House have particularly highlighted the danger to their continued existence as a result of these cuts announced by the Minister and the Government.
Let us be clear on this point. There is a threat to the existence of many of these schools because of the measures that are being introduced. A notion being propagated by the Minister that no school is being forced to close does not stand up beside the figures being issued by the Department to accompany this decision. The changes that are being announced by the Department mean an increase in the pupil-teacher ratio for the schools affected. There is no hysteria in this because the Department has provided the figure that 47% of the 3,200 primary schools in the State have five teachers or fewer. Every one of those schools will be affected by this change. Maidir leis na scoileanna Gaeilge, caithfidh siad seacht ndalta breise a fháil anois mar gheall ar an athrú seo. Sin athrú sa chóimheas múinteoirí is dalta dos na scoileanna sin. Those schools of minority faiths are getting the biggest cut of all and suffering the biggest demands of all.
The retention figures are utterly inequitable. A large school with 12 teachers needs another 28 pupils in order to become a 13-teacher school whereas a two-teacher school needs an additional 37 pupils to become a three-teacher school this September. Small schools are taking a bigger hit and are being punished more than larger schools.
The Government has changed the goalposts by backdating the changes to last September, thereby not giving the schools a chance to make the changes and attract students. I am delighted many Deputies have referred to this point. I hear about appeals procedures. They do not exist in real life. They are a cover to get the Government through this vote. We were not given any detail as to how they will work. Where were the appeals procedures or the demands for them when the Government parties were discussing the budget in their various parliamentary party meetings before the budget? We would not need an appeals procedure if the Deputies opposite had been awake for that discussion.
There has always been a statutory appeals procedure.
I do not hear the Department of Education and Skills advising larger schools and their communities throughout the country to "consider their future" or to "assess their options for amalgamation".
Hear, hear. That is the language used.
That is the message being sent to small communities throughout the island today. Perhaps what the Department wants to achieve is that, by sending that message, it will plant the seed of doubt as to the future of the school in the parents, who will then make a choice to send their children to a larger school. The Department can then wash its hands of the decision and blame the parents for making that choice. If that is the way it intends to close down the schools, shame on the so-called Department of Education and Skills.
Communities across this island are hearing this message. Like many Deputies, I have received letters. The following is the choice faced by the people of Leenane, on the Galway border. Due to its geographical location, the nearest school is 24 km away. Owing to the dispersal of the area, children from Leenane could end up going to four different schools, which would result in the division and the effective abandonment of young people in that community.
For example, suppose there is a family with two children going to the faraway school, one with a pick-up time at 2 p.m., the other at 3 p.m. It is 24 km away, there is no public transport and the way this Government is going perhaps the school bus system will go as well. There will be days, therefore, when the family in question will have to do two or three runs back and over, some 48 km each time. Nobody wins in that situation, not the student, not the parent, not the community. That situation is replicated all over the country.
The other myth propagated by the Minister of State who, I regret to say, lives in a rural area yet came in to the House and re-emphasised this message, is that small schools get more favourable capitation and other grant payments and have a favourable pupil-teacher ratio. Yes, they have a more favourable PTR and a more favourable system. They are entitled to it. The Government amendment ignores the reality of life for smaller schools, na gaelscoileanna and the faith-based schools. It ignores the fact that teachers in these schools face challenges that teachers in larger schools do not have. It ignores the fact that teachers must address not only mixed abilities but mixed ages. It ignores the fact that teachers and school communities in these areas are required to take a much bigger leadership role because of smaller staff numbers and a smaller school community. It ignores the fact that smaller schools, gaelscoileanna and the faith-based schools have a smaller base on which to get their extra capitation money.
The entire cut in this area is based on ignorance of the educational and societal value of the schools it directly targets.
We should not be surprised because the entire budget seems to be based on ignorance of the value of rural life and rural communities throughout this island.
Deputies
In the Seanad last night the Minister, Deputy Quinn, commented that he did not see his function as one of visiting schools except where doing so is necessary or appropriate. This is from the Minister of Education and Skills.
I respectfully suggest to the Minister before he proceeds with the implementation of this cut that it is necessary and appropriate to visit the small schools, the gaelscoileanna and the faith-based schools to see what his cut will do to these schools, their communities and the teachers and pupils in them. If it is not appropriate to visit such a school now when is it appropriate? He can visit small schools, like the one-teacher school in Glenmore just outside Ballina which is the Irish representative in a European-wide IT scheme. This is the school he would try to dismiss. Due to the investment of parents and the teacher in information technology this school did not lose any school days last year during the snow because the children were connected to the school through the technology.
That is the kind of thinking and innovation this country needs to get us moving again. We have that thinking, that innovation and that passion for learning in small schools across this island, in our gaelscoileanna. This cut will completely pull the ground from under that. How will we get this country moving again if we ruin the roots of recovery by doing this?
Last night the Minister, Deputy Quinn, threw many quotes from Shakespeare into his debate, trying to defend his position. I very respectfully point the Minister in the direction of somebody who might be better equipped to talk about small Irish rural schools, the late Bryan MacMahon, the Master himself. The Master has a saying in his book: "A teacher can leave the track of his teeth on a parish for three generations". That is the influence teachers can have on their communities, their local GAA club, their church and every aspect. By proceeding tonight with this cut, by withdrawing teachers from rural communities, the Minister of State will withdraw that influence. He will pull an artery that supplies blood from the heart of rural communities. One does not need to be a scientist to know that when one damages an artery one can fatally damage the living being.
Tonight the Deputies opposite took part in a parliamentary party meeting about another issue, one provoked by an organisation called Stand up for Ireland. I do not know what decision they came to. I am not sure if we are waiting for white smoke. What we want tonight is for the Deputies on the opposite side to stand up for minority faith education.
A Deputy
We have a pope now in Deputy Kehoe.
Táimid ag iarraidh orthu seasamh suas ar son na gaelscoileanna, stand up for the small rural schools----
You let them down. You sold them out.
(Interruptions).
Order, please. The Deputy has the floor.
We want this Dáil to stand up for small rural schools-----
-----for small communities and give them the chances that the Deputies opposite, through this cut, are giving to the larger communities.
If they will not do it tonight I ask them to get together in a huddle with the Minister like their Labour Party colleagues did and get him to change this rule for the benefit of their and our communities.
It is time, Deputy. Go raibh maith agat, Deputy Stagg.
Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 87; Níl, 46.
Tá
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Cannon, Ciarán.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Ferris, Anne.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Flanagan, Terence.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- Lyons, John.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Mathews, Peter.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McEntee, Shane.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McHugh, Joe.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- McNamara, Michael.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O’Donnell, Kieran.
- O’Donovan, Patrick.
- O’Dowd, Fergus.
- O’Mahony, John.
- O’Reilly, Joe.
- O’Sullivan, Jan.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Varadkar, Leo.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S..
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O’Brien, Jonathan.
- O’Dea, Willie.
- O’Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Ross, Shane.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 86; Níl, 46.
Tá
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Cannon, Ciarán.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J..
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Ferris, Anne.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Flanagan, Terence.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- Lyons, John.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Mathews, Peter.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McEntee, Shane.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McHugh, Joe.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- McNamara, Michael.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O’Donnell, Kieran.
- O’Donovan, Patrick.
- O’Dowd, Fergus.
- O’Mahony, John.
- O’Reilly, Joe.
- O’Sullivan, Jan.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Varadkar, Leo.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S..
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O’Brien, Jonathan.
- O’Dea, Willie.
- O’Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Ross, Shane.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 February 2012.
