Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2012

Vol. 753 No. 3

European Council Meeting: Statements

I welcome this opportunity to brief the House on what was an important meeting for Europe and for Ireland. Progress was made on two key issues of vital interest to us: the jobs and growth agenda and the new fiscal compact treaty. The outcome represents an important contribution to moving Europe beyond crisis, helping to restore stability and confidence to our economy and putting the urgent need for job-creating growth at the top of the agenda.

As I told the European Council meeting on Monday, since this Government took office our absolute priority has been to secure Ireland's economic recovery and to ensure employment for our people. The meeting highlighted how vital it is that this work is advanced seamlessly at national and European level. There can be no difference in approach. All our priorities must be aligned, our policy approaches must match and they must be driven forward with equal commitment and energy. Our membership of the European Union and playing a full, active and influential part at its heart is an essential part of the work that must be done if Ireland is to get back to where it seeks to be. I assure the House that I have personally ensured every Minister is alive to this vital task and fully engaged in this work. I have put in place new arrangements at official level in my Department to ensure that there is full coherence throughout the system and that every opportunity for Ireland to advance its case and its interests at European level is seized and used to maximum effect.

The outcome from Monday's meeting is a clear demonstration that our approach is working and that it is delivering results. Yesterday's discussion of growth and jobs was lengthy and important. There was a constructive and serious atmosphere in the room and I believe there is now a real appreciation at the highest level of European politics of the urgent need to focus fully on growth-generating policies not only as a counter-balance to discipline and austerity, but as an essential element of any sustainable programme of recovery. As I told the Dáil last week, Ireland, along with several like-minded member states, submitted two papers in advance of the meeting, one identifying measures with real potential to deliver growth and the other focused on the digital Single Market, especially copyright issues.

These represented an important input to the text eventually agreed. To make our discussions as practical and concrete as possible, President Van Rompuy asked us to focus on three key areas: unemployment, especially among young people; the Single Market; and small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs. In advance of the meeting, he asked several colleagues to prepare presentations on these issues and I was asked to make a presentation on the role of SMEs in driving economic recovery.

We heard from President Barroso, who gave a detailed presentation on the extensive range of policy initiatives being advanced by the European Commission. He considered several possible growth scenarios for the EU and what we might do to improve our situation. His presentation was sobering to say the least, particularly his presentation on the extent of youth unemployment throughout the European Union which has reached levels as high as 50% in Spain. As President Barroso set out in his statement after the summit, the Commission will now establish action teams to work with member states in which above average rates of youth unemployment apply. This includes Ireland and the intention is to improve job opportunities for young people.

Several Prime Ministers were asked to introduce key topics to inform the debate. As the Danish Prime Minister holds the Presidency, she focused on legislative work on priority initiatives and the need for the new budget for the EU, the multi-annual financial framework, to promote growth and employment. The Austrian Chancellor spoke on stimulating employment, the Estonian Prime Minister addressed the Single Market and the Finnish Prime Minister focused in particular on the digital Single Market.

In the course of my contribution I set the scene on SMEs, focusing on what we have been doing in Ireland in this regard. I pointed to two key concerns, ensuring access to finance and reducing red tape, which must be addressed if SMEs, the engines of economic recovery, are to be able to fulfil their potential. I highlighted some of the key steps we are taking in Ireland, including our forthcoming jobs action plan; the partial guarantee scheme and micro-financing loan fund; and the strategic investment fund. All of these will help to supplement bank lending.

I also stressed that in return for the money we put in to the banks to recapitalise them, we insist that they deliver for the real economy. We will ensure this materialises through our monthly monitoring of lending targets and patterns and the establishment of the Credit Review Office. I described how we are taking a highly targeted approach in our initiatives, including the reduction of VAT on tourism services, the cut in PRSI for employers of low earners and the reform of our bankruptcy laws, aiming specifically at measures most likely to contribute to growth and recovery. I also pointed to our encouragement of new and innovative companies. This takes place through ensuring that small and medium-sized enterprises can access research and development funding and providing a sales and marketing tax credit to companies exporting to new markets in emerging economies, including the BRIC countries, Brazil, Russia, India and China. I suggested that we should seek to learn from others about what does and does not work by exchange of best practice and that we should return to the discussion in June. This is reflected in the final paragraph of the statement agreed on Monday evening.

Reaching agreement on the new treaty at Monday's meeting was another important milestone. However, as a result of the considerable work that was put into negotiating and preparing the text ahead of Monday's meeting the political discussion on this element was a good deal shorter than our discussion of growth. While much, if not most, of the treaty is already provided for in the EU treaties and existing EU law, including the provisions of the Stability and Growth Pact as strengthened by the six legislative measures adopted last year, setting out the measures in a new treaty takes the process to a new level by ensuring that everyone will play by the rules and will be held to account if they do not. As a small member state of the union, this is in Ireland's interests. There have been occasions in the past when it has been easier for large member states in particular to evade their responsibilities. Under the new treaty this will no longer be possible.

Now that we have a final text it might be helpful for me to set out some of its main features to the House. The new treaty entitled the Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union opens with a long set of preambles. I highlight the 20th preamble, which makes it clear that "none of the provisions of this Treaty is to be interpreted as altering in any way the economic policy conditions under which financial assistance has been granted to a Contracting Party in a stabilisation programme...". This is an important provision which ensures that for Ireland and other programme countries, the terms of our EU IMF programme will prevail and that the new agreement will only apply once we have exited from the programme.

Among the articles of the treaty, I highlight Article 2 which aims to ensure full consistency with EU treaties. The statement that the treaty is to be applied and interpreted "in conformity with the Treaties on which the European Union is founded" is welcome and something Ireland actively sought, as is the assertion that "They shall not encroach on the competences of the Union to act in the area of economic union".

Another feature worth noting is the carefully balanced language on measurement of structural deficits in Article 3.1, one of the priority issues for Ireland that I have identified previously in the House. The final language in this regard reflects Irish concerns that the approach should take into account an overall assessment with the structural balance as a reference and that it should reflect country-specific aspects. This is important to a small, open economy like ours. Similarly, the language of Article 3.2, which sets out what is required to enact the new deficit brake at national level, reflects Irish input.

We need to ensure that member states fully adhere to and respect the new rules in deciding on and implementing their budgets. Equally, however, it is important that the text recognises that law making processes and traditions - including at a constitutional level - vary from country to country and must be accommodated when we agree to act together. This has always been the case in the conduct of European business. The final text is a balanced one that Ireland can accept.

Article 13 provides an important new role for national parliaments, who will, together with the European Parliament, organise and promote a conference of representatives of their relevant committees to discuss budgetary policies and other issues covered by the treaty. I know this will be welcomed by the House. The arrangements for entry into force are set out in Article 14. This provides that the treaty will enter into force on 1 January 2013, providing that 12 euro area member states have ratified it. Member states will then have a further year to transpose its contents into their national law.

I appreciate the great interest that there is in what will be required to enable Ireland to ratify the new treaty. At our meeting yesterday, the Government agreed that the Tánaiste, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, should write to the Attorney General seeking her formal views in the matter. This is the norm when we are looking at an international treaty. There is no formal deadline. The Attorney General must be given the time she needs to undertake this detailed and important work. As I have said before, the Government will not shirk its duties. It will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that Ireland is in a position to ratify the treaty, including a referendum if necessary. I will keep the House fully briefed and involved in this important work.

I reiterate my welcome for this new treaty. Its shared currency rules, and the ability to enforce them, are of vital importance. The arrangements make it possible to hold all member states, including the largest, to account in a way that has not previously been possible. I would equally acknowledge that it cannot be seen in any way as a sufficient response to the crisis currently facing Europe, nor was it intended to. In order to get beyond our current difficulties, we also need an urgent focus on growth-enhancing policies. Monday's statement on this and the recognition that growth issues must feature on all future agendas for meetings of the European Council is an important and significant step forward.

It is also clear that the situation in Greece remains fragile. At our meeting, we heard from Prime Minister Papademos on progress in the negotiations on private sector involvement, PSI, and on a new programme. The troika's assessment is that Greece is making real efforts, but that more remains to be done.

For as long as member states remain exposed to extreme pressure in the markets, we will need to ensure that we have strong and credible firewalls in place. I am, therefore, very pleased that Monday's meeting reiterated our agreement to come back to reassess the adequacy of the resources available under the EFSF and the ESM when we meet again at the beginning of March. This will be an important discussion, including for Ireland. While we are making progress in our recovery, we remain vulnerable to negative developments elsewhere. In this regard, I welcome the fact that colleagues reiterated their view that positive progress is being made by Ireland and that they will continue to provide support to countries under a programme until they have regained market access. This is an important reassurance as we work towards that important goal. This statement was included in the conclusions of the meeting and in the communication thereafter.

The road ahead for Ireland and Europe is long and difficult. Recovery will not be built in a day or at a single meeting. However, on Monday we took important steps in the right direction and I will be ensure that my colleagues deliver on what they have agreed and that our undertakings are turned into concrete actions in the period ahead.

Over the next few months there will be much debate on the ratification of the fiscal treaty to which the Taoiseach agreed on Monday. This is already shaping up to be a destructive process solely focused on the form of ratification rather than on the future of Europe and our role in it. For the first time since we applied to join the Union 50 years ago, we begin this debate without basic information being publicly available and without even the most elementary consensus between parties positive towards the European Union.

There is great danger that the approach to date and the pushing through of this treaty without any public engagement will do lasting damage to the standing of the Union in Ireland. For the sake of rushing through this treaty, we could damage the possibility of ever again winning support for an EU initiative. Given that this treaty commits us to a major new EU treaty in the next few years, this is an urgent concern.

It has been a bad year for Europe. Never before have its citizens been in such need of assistance and never before has the Union seemed less able to provide it. This is a defining moment in the Union's history. In the face of an unprecedented crisis, it must find new ways forward. Developments of long-standing policies simply are not good enough. The public demands answers and it our duty in this House to speak directly and constructively. We must speak hard truths, but must also show people that we are pushing credible solutions. The flaws in the way this treaty was negotiated, its contents and its ratification are so significant that they must be talked about. However, we cannot leave it at that; we need something more positive.

The issues discussed and agreed on Monday are at very best a small step. No matter how good the presentation of it is, this treaty and the measures agreed on Monday do not show the public that a solution is in hand on Europe's crisis. The measures are not radical enough and they do not tackle the urgent need to reform the ECB and expand European investment. While commentators talk about a theoretical possibility of new flexibility, in reality there is nothing more on the Union's agenda. The approach to EU issues in this House since the election has involved more heat than light. There is more time available for speeches, but there has been a refusal to provide information or respond to direct questions. We urgently need to change this. We need a genuine effort to find consensus among those who want the Union to work and we need this effort to start now.

Before addressing the real substance of the summit, I reiterate that the broad thrust of discussions on Monday about support for SMEs and redirecting funding must be welcomed. What is not welcome is the attempt to over-spin their significance. Completing the Single Market in areas such as services will help the broader European economy in the medium term. Hopefully, this in-principle agreement will become more definite in the near future. I hope too that the Taoiseach has the Labour Party on board in terms of services across the European Union, because it is not so long since it labelled the services directive as a Frankenstein.

As for the redirected Structural Funds, a similar reallocation has been a part of this funding for at least two decades. The reapportionment of funding not drawn-down is a basic principle of funding and has helped it to be highly effective in the past. This is a process from which Ireland has always benefited because our unfairly maligned public servants are among the most effective and efficient in Europe in implementing support programmes. What is really needed is new funding which can help countries currently unable to invest in job creation in spite of growing unemployment. If an initiative is not large enough to merit changing unemployment forecasts, it should not be presented as a major initiative. Over-claiming the significance of what was agreed on Monday will just feed disillusionment as people fail to see the impact of the measures in the near future.

Over the past twelve months, the European Council has held an unprecedented number of meetings. These meetings have mostly been held in the middle of a crisis and have always been followed by claims about decisive action and returning confidence. After all of the effort which has been put into these meetings, we are still faced with the fact that growth is falling, the cost of funding public services is rising and unemployment is at its highest ever level. Take, for example, the statements following any of last year's summits and compare them to what happened afterwards and it is clear that the European Council is failing. It is failing to restore confidence, it is failing to show leadership and, worst of all, it is failing to respect the spirit of solidarity on which the greatest international body in history was built. The reason it is failing is simple. This crisis involves radically new challenges, yet the Council has tried to tackle them with a set of incremental changes to existing policies. Every initiative has been delayed and others have been pushed in the face of evidence that they were not working. At Europe's hour of need, its leaders have been timid and obsessed with domestic political manoeuvring.

The economic impact of this has been very serious. Confidence and the ability of states to invest for recovery have been undermined. Just as serious, and with the potential to cause long-term problems, has been the damage to the standing of the Union with its citizens. 2011 saw the sustained destruction of public confidence in the EU. Since these issues began to be measured 35 years ago, there has never been such a dramatic and concentrated fall in sentiment towards the EU. Only 19% believe that the Union is heading in the right direction, while a majority say the opposite. This is not just about a eurosceptic fringe, but a factor throughout the Union, and most disturbingly it is now a factor in this country. Measured against figures taken just before this Government took up office, by last November the Irish public had moved suddenly to a negative view of Europe's direction. Sentiment declined by an unprecedented 38%. During three years of crisis this sentiment had remained strong, but it collapsed last year in the face of growing despair at the failures of Europe's leaders.

The consensus in this country has consistently been that people believe in the EU as a positive force. This has not always been the same as supporting EU treaties, but the reflexive anti-EU suspicions of its consistent opponents have never been a mainstream view of citizens. My fear is that if we do not quickly restore trust and confidence in the Union, then we run the risk of damaging its democratic legitimacy. The old arguments and cries to just rally to the cause have nothing to offer. In fact they are making matters worse, because they seek to deny legitimate concerns.

It is impossible to comment on the content of the agreed treaty without addressing the process by which it was developed and by which Ireland agreed to it. At European level, even the most basic groundwork has not been done to show the logic behind individual provisions of this treaty. Public debate was discouraged and a handful of bilateral summits were allowed to replace inclusive negotiations. The Taoiseach is not alone among his peers in having failed to undertake a detailed series of meetings with others. After three years of an economic crisis, a rising sovereign debt crisis made it clear that Europe needed new policies. It created bailout funds but struggled with the agenda of how to prevent the need for bailouts. Policies which forced Ireland and then Portugal out of the bond markets have been continued, with other countries surviving only due to indirect and probably unsustainable support.

The lack of stronger fiscal controls did not cause the crisis, but the narrow agenda of one country has made it the main focus of the proposed solution. Given that Ireland would have comfortably met every provision of this treaty in the decade before the crisis, no one has yet explained how the treaty would have prevented it.

Negotiations were not inclusive and they fostered acrimony and a lack of ownership of the outcome. It should be a concern to everyone that this is the first time in the Union's history that a treaty will not be signed by all of its members. At home this is the first time that no serious effort was made to seek input to Ireland's negotiating objectives for a treaty, and the first time when these objectives were not outlined in detail for the public. Long before December's text was negotiated, I wrote to the Taoiseach seeking engagement. He refused, saying that he saw no benefit from it. After he had already agreed the principles of the treaty, he called a meeting of all groups at which he gave no new information and he has failed to follow up a specific request from me for an analysis of the economic impact of what is proposed. In contrast, previous Governments of different make-ups were far more open. First of all, parties were given the basic respect of separate meetings when they were sought. Former Taoiseach John Bruton and former Tánaiste Dick Spring kept the Opposition fully informed in the Amsterdam treaty negotiations. For the constitutional treaty and Lisbon, the Opposition actually participated in the development of Ireland's negotiating position.

The Taoiseach will know that I was fully open with his spokespeople during the consultations I held while preparing the revised Lisbon proposal. They were given repeated briefings and the ability to make submissions which were incorporated into Government positions. Deputies Timmins and Costello made contributions to the final proposal and ensured that the mainstream pro-EU consensus survived. If the Taoiseach wants a constructive ratification debate he needs to begin respecting the fact that there are legitimate, pro-EU reasons for being concerned about this treaty.

We said last year, before any other party, that a core principle needed to be followed for the ratification of this treaty. If it involves any significant change then the people should be consulted. It has been clear for a long time that the Government wanted to avoid a referendum at all costs and Ministers have briefed extensively that they expect to be told that a referendum is not required. Today's newspapers reveal that the Taoiseach's claim to have no concern about holding a referendum is nonsense. At all stages of the negotiating process, the avoidance of a public vote was the primary objective for the Government.

The Taoiseach is now backing himself into the corner of arguing that the treaty is powerful enough to save the euro, but not significant enough to require a vote of the people. This approach is one which instinctively and rightly alienates people. Is it not a terrible indictment of the leaders of Europe that the Irish courts will soon hear State lawyers argue that this is a treaty which is too insignificant to require a vote? Does it not say something deeply depressing that our Government's position is that an unprecedented crisis is being met within existing policy limits?

The Taoiseach is well aware that there were people pushing the idea of parliamentary ratification of the revised Lisbon proposal. I and others refused to agree to this because we saw that such a move could cause permanent damage to the public's support for the EU. It was rightly decided to let the people decide. This position was supported by Fine Gael and the Labour Party in this House and in the campaign. Sinn Féin was true to its 40 year record of attacking every single EU treaty change and worked to use the referendum to promote itself rather than any constructive proposal. The manoeuvring we have seen from Sinn Féin and other anti-EU groups is entirely based on wanting to have something to campaign against.

My party yesterday commissioned an independent legal opinion which will deal with both the ratification process and, more importantly, the actual legal impact of the final text. I was disappointed that the Taoiseach did not refer to any issues arising out of the treaty in this context. In particular, he referenced article 3.2. This article refers to creating a scenario which is binding and of permanent character, which would appear to restrict the capacity of future Dáileanna to change position in terms of the parameters of this treaty. I would have been interested in the Taoiseach's comments on that, even if he is awaiting the advice of the Attorney General.

We will deal with that when we get to the fiscal responsibility Bill.

It is a very significant point for debate.

The Deputy has not said whether he is for the treaty or against it.

Will the Taoiseach listen to what I am saying to him?

I have made my mind up.

Far too often, he does not listen and is too dismissive of comments that have been made. We have been asking questions for eight or nine months but he has refused to answer them. He plays games with the Parliament all the time, restricting information and detail.

I am for the treaty. Is Deputy Martin for it or against it?

I am disappointed the Taoiseach did not comment on that legality. However, there is a more fundamental point at issue here. Can we stand over a process where the people have been excluded at every stage of negotiation and ratification? The public has not only not been consulted; they have been ignored. Equally, the major policy omissions in the treaty are also too big to ignore.

If this treaty is the end of the debate on the structural reform of the economic and monetary rules of the European Union, then the public must be consulted. It is clear that the Taoiseach will come back in a few weeks to say that ratification through the Oireachtas is likely to survive the various legal challenges which will immediately be launched. Is he willing to come back with a much more significant proposal which shows the people that they are being listened to?

I have said consistently before that our major problem with the treaty is that it does not go far enough. It elevates a side issue, the imposition of fiscal controls, to a central position and ignores the agenda Europe needs. The Fianna Fáil Party supports a significant increase in the economic role of the European Union. In response to the crisis, Ireland has favoured greater federalism in key areas. While this marks a departure from the Irish position of the past 20 years, it is the only reasonable way to respond to the crisis.

There are two major reforms without which this crisis will not be overcome and the predictions of long-term austerity will be realised. The European Central Bank is designed for the German economy of the 1970s and has failed as a central bank for a diverse currency union. The need to change its mandate and expand its bond buying options is more important than any single item on our national agenda. Greater fiscal union, which Fianna Fáil supports in principle, can only work if it involves a commitment to significant transfers within the Union. A union which controls a budget of 1% of collective income is not and will not be a fiscal union. We need to challenge the advocates of a control led solution as without increased investment, there will be no growth. These matters were not seriously discussed in preparing the treaty. They were not pushed by Ireland or other countries which were intimidated by the strength of the fiscal control agenda.

If we want to renew public confidence in the European Union, we must renew our approach to working together on European policy. The lengthy tradition of the pro-European Union parties consulting on the national approach to negotiations was abandoned and there has been too much partisanship. I appeal directly to the Taoiseach to work on forging a new pro-EU consensus, one which is based on taking people's fears seriously and promotes an agenda ambitious enough to tackle a crisis of this scale.

As I have stated repeatedly during the past year, I believe in the great European ideal as the best and perhaps only route to sustained prosperity for the people of Ireland and Europe. I am the only party leader to have gone beyond generalities by setting out an economic case for saving the euro. My party's gut reaction to the European Union has always been and will always be that we see it as a solution rather than a problem, and as empowering sovereignty rather than threatening it. Our core instinct is to support common initiatives, even if we believe they are not perfect. We will not take any position which will damage the standing of the European Union and its ability to work on behalf of its citizens.

Instead of letting Monday be the point from which everyone is summoned to take opposing positions, we need a real discussion about the way forward. The treaty must become a part of a wider series of urgent initiatives which are capable of tackling the crisis. As no wider action agenda has been promoted, the treaty is currently a stand-alone measure and the end of a process. If the Taoiseach agrees that any solution to the economic crisis must involve the European Union, he cannot keep to this position. To do so would be a betrayal of the hopes and urgent needs of the citizens of this State and the European Union as a whole. There is no credibility in promising that something will eventually happen once the treaty is ratified. It must not be ratified in a manner that is dismissive of the public. Once we lose the foundation of pro-European Union sentiment among the people, we will not get it back. Once we use legal devices to avoid any public consultation on the treaty, it will be almost impossible to get more urgent changes adopted.

The Taoiseach and leaders from 24 other European Union member states agreed to a new austerity treaty which will mean imposing savage austerity on the citizens of this State and citizens across Europe for years to come. It is not a real surprise that the Taoiseach supported this treaty as he has long signalled support for the austerity approach despite its devastating social consequences.

In recent days, the Taoiseach stated he had "no fear or concern or anxiety" about the prospect of a referendum on the treaty. The major focus of the Government's negotiation strategy throughout this entire process has been to avoid the necessity to hold a referendum. If he has nothing to fear from this process and is so confident about the austerity treaty, why does he not stop hiding behind the Attorney General and put the text to the people? The Government should hold a referendum on the eurozone austerity treaty irrespective of the legal advice given by the Attorney General.

Sinn Féin believes the treaty, if ratified, will have a profound impact on the Irish economy and people for decades to come. Recent opinion polls confirm that the overwhelming majority of the electorate supports our view. A massive 72% believe a referendum is necessary. It is clear, therefore, that people want to have their say on this matter. The Government does not have a mandate to sign up to a treaty which will have such serious implications for the future. It must do the right thing and hold a referendum.

Sinn Féin has argued that austerity is not the answer to this crisis but part of the problem. What is needed is a strategy for jobs and growth through stimulus. While European Union leaders seem to have finally woken up to this reality and discussed these issues at their summit, not one additional cent has been allocated to job creation. Rather than announcing new plans or providing new money for job creation, all that emerged from the meeting was a rehash of existing plans and money.

The so-called debt brake of 0.5% of GDP will heap yet more austerity on people in Ireland. It will result in the hand-over of significant control of fiscal and budgetary matters to unelected and unaccountable EU officials. The austerity treaty is bad for Ireland and Europe. Rather than stabilising the euro, it will make matters worse. In seeking to impose drastic and destructive austerity policies into perpetuity the Government is signing all of us up to budgets that involve savage cuts for its full term of office and beyond.

What is completely absent from the treaty are any moves towards debt restructuring. Last week, the Taoiseach told the world that the people of Ireland went mad borrowing and this led to the economic crisis. The reality was that Irish banks went mad borrowing cheap money from European banks. They did so to make a profit and because they were greedy. Their actions drove house prices ever higher, forcing citizens to borrow large amounts of money simply to buy a place to live. These self-same banks are now being bailed out by the taxpayer at a colossal cost of €63 billion.

Last week in the Dáil, the Taoiseach stated he did not want to have the word "defaulter" written "on our foreheads" and he had not sought a debt write-down. The point is that the banking debt is not the people's debt and should not be paid. Did the Taoiseach raise this issue at the European Council meeting?

Does he believe Ireland can and should continue to shoulder the burden of the promissory note?

As the Deputy is aware, the troika prepared a paper on that issue.

The European Union institutions, supported by the International Monetary Fund, have responded to the crisis by imposing heavy austerity on the populations of peripheral economies, while forcing their governments to take on massive loans to bail out toxic banks. This response is having devastating social consequences, not only in Ireland but across the European Union. Despite an endless round of crisis summits, a massive transfer of moneys from taxpayers to banks and the austerity treaty, the response to the crisis is not working. Youth unemployment is at crisis level, with nearly one third of young people in Ireland and almost half of Spanish young people out of work. Thousands of young people have to leave the State every week to try to make a living elsewhere. What does the future hold for them? Where is the hope for them? As a man from the west, the Taoiseach is aware of the impact of emigration and the shadow it casts on the small, rural communities dotted across the west. He knows about the empty seats at dinner tables during the Christmas period just passed and the tears shed at airports. We do not want to hear Ministers describe emigration as a lifestyle choice again.

Sinn Féin believes Ireland's place is in Europe. Co-operation with our European partners is essential if we are to meet the challenges facing us in the time ahead. In attempting to portray the choice before Irish people as one of accepting the austerity treaty or leaving the euro the Government is simply scaremongering. The scenario it presents is incorrect because Ireland's position as a member of the eurozone is secure irrespective of what position we take on the treaty. The real question facing the Dáil and citizens is whether this treaty is a good deal for Ireland and Europe. Sinn Féin firmly believes the answer to that question is a negative.

In regard to Article 3.2, as the Taoiseach knows, the language in the first draft was very clear at the insistence of Angela Merkel's Government that we shall transpose these agreements into the constitution or equivalent legislation. The first draft was very clear about what Chancellor Merkel's Government wanted. The Taoiseach's colleague, the Tánaiste, speaking at the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs, confirmed - the Taoiseach refused to do so today, so I will clarify the matter for him - that our negotiators, clearly at the instruction of either the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste, presumably both, actively sought to weaken that text and to put in the words "preferably constitutional" in order to avoid the requirement to put this proposition before the people. However, the words "binding" and "permanent" are still there. All of the draconian austerity measures, which will go beyond this troika package, are still there, as are all the implications. The only change which the Taoiseach secured was to prevent the people having their say on this issue. That is outrageous and shameful.

Then we had the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, tell us that in these debates, people tend to focus on all sorts of things. They might focus on septic tanks, bank bailouts and other such issues. This is an 11 page document. Even if some of his points were accepted, it is not the Lisbon treaty or the Nice treaty. The issues are clear, they can be argued clearly and can be accessible to our people. There is no justification for not putting this before the people because the implications are so profound. That is what the Taoiseach achieved in the negotiations. The only thing he achieved in terms of Chancellor Merkel's crazy austerity-driven approach is to prevent the people having their say.

Austerity has not worked. If the Taoiseach does not want to take Sinn Féin's word for it, I am sure he will take the word of the IMF. The IMF recently published a report which looked at austerity over the past 30 years and 173 different case studies. All that austerity has done, in the absence of some growth strategy, is drive up unemployment and make conditions extremely harsh. This is a mad strategy and I have yet to hear one economist say it can possibly work or, as the Taoiseach said was his objective, get Ireland back to work, or make Ireland the best small country in the world in which to do business. How in the name of God will he achieve that by signing up to this document without any plan for growth, without any sense of investment and without any real economic approach or outline plan?

If the Taoiseach is not happy with the IMF, I will give him some more examples. Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel prize winning economist and the person the Taoiseach called a "commentator" - commentators comment when the Taoiseach is over in Davos where he said the people went mad borrowing - travels the world-----

An eminent man.

Yes, an eminent man. He said that paying back unsecured bondholders was unconscionable. He talked about this being a suicide pact. That is the language he used. He is a very thoughtful man who has inspired people with his analysis of economics and what needs to happen around the world. He said this whole approach of austerity was a suicide pact.

Now if Joseph Stiglitz, who the Taoiseach called a "commentator", is not good enough for him, I will give him George Soros.

That is why we put growth as a central issue on the agenda-----

(Interruptions).

Now I will give the Taoiseach-----

This is not a debate. This is a series of statements.

Now I will give the Taoiseach George Soros. Does he want to hear about George Soros?

You are inviting comment. You do not do that when you are making statements.

That is fine. George Soros-----

I have always endorsed the IMF.

The Taoiseach should stay and answer questions.

We will have some questions and then we will talk about-----

Will you make your statement and then we will have the questions?

A Cheann Comhairle, if I could make my comments, thank you-----

I have not spoken to George Soros and Joseph Stiglitz.

It might be uncomfortable if I make some comments. In terms of George Soros-----

Sorry, Deputy, I ask you to withdraw that remark. I am not comfortable or uncomfortable about anything. I am here to act as an independent chairperson.

Will you tell me what I am doing wrong in bringing these issues to this House?

You are inviting comment instead of making a statement.

You will have a chance to put questions and get answers afterwards.

Could you tell me what I am doing wrong by bringing these issues to this House?

You are asking a question. You are inviting a comment.

So you are saying to me not to ask any further questions until Question Time.

Do not be silly.

You know exactly what I mean.

That is grand. I should not ask any further questions until Question Time. I will not ask the Taoiseach any further questions for about 20 minutes but I will talk about George Soros and report to this House what he said. George Soros said this austerity approach would condemn Europe into a deflationary debt spiral. The Taoiseach knows all of this. Some eminent people who he respects - whatever he thinks about Sinn Féin's perspective - are telling him that this whole approach is crazy.

The European Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Inclusion said that by purely cutting wages, competitiveness does not improve. He also said that we must also invest in the labour force and that a more balanced approach, more solitary and cohesion among member states is needed because to end the crisis, Europe cannot rely solely on austerity measures. I could go on in regard to these matters, and I will get some opportunity now because we have a new Acting Chairman.

Let me present some solutions. I have already given the Taoiseach a copy of our proposals and analysis. I do not know if he had the chance to read it on the way-----

I was enthralled by it.

I thought he might have read it on the aeroplane on the way to his engagements. I hoped it might inspire him and he might find that spirit to take a stand instead of engaging in-----

I will get back to the Deputy on that.

-----tomfoolery with President Sarkozy.

We have identified four elements to the crisis, with which I think the Taoiseach will agree. There are the issues of the crisis of investment and the crisis of the role of European Central Bank. How can the European Central Bank play a more constructive role in solving this crisis? There are also the issues of debt restructuring and of the management of this crisis and the banking crisis throughout Europe.

Let us deal with the first one because the Taoiseach asked for solutions and constructive debate. Let me give him Sinn Féin's constructive contribution in case he did not have the opportunity to read what I gave him. In terms of the investment crisis, we have a National Pensions Reserve Fund with €5.3 billion. When the Sinn Féin leader, Deputy Gerry Adams, the deputy leader, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, Deputy Pearse Doherty and I met the troika, we probed this issue of utilising the European Investment Bank's immense resources. The bank has a strong track record in terms of investment and return, so it is a fairly prudent and strategic way to invest money. We should combine the resources of the European Investment Bank with our National Pensions Reserve Fund and utilise that to invest in various projects, for example, the roll-out of next generation broadband. Recently, Deputies and Senators from all parties watched a presentation on the potential this would unleash in this country. I could go on but that is just one element. We need to unleash the potential of the European Investment Bank in a serious way.

The little document which was used as window dressing to the austerity treaty has no new money or no new plans. It is a reconfiguration of existing ideas. We need a dramatic intervention and a real message of hope, jobs and growth to be sent to people throughout Europe, in particular, in the interest of the Taoiseach, to people in Ireland. That is the first element in terms of investment.

The second element is the banking system. Let us have a bit of honesty about this. There must be rigorous stress testing of the core European banks because we have not had it to date. We know they behaved recklessly and were utilised strategically to take that trade surplus and wealth in Germany and other states to invest it in the periphery, whether a bad investment in the Greek Government or an appallingly bad investment in the private Irish banks. We know they have caused this crisis and that it was not caused by the people going mad borrowing. We know there was a fundamental lack of regulation in the international financial system which was not just limited to Europe. We know it happened in the US also. When will we have rigorous stress testing of those banks and then some deleveraging? We can then recapitalise when we know where we stand. We have had some tinkering around the edges. This is the core issue that Sinn Féin believes these states are afraid of. When we go to that issue, we get to the root of the problem. However, there is no Government solution to address it, other than to say that we must have more austerity.

The third element, after investment and banking, is sovereign debt. We must have a real discussion about how Ireland, Greece and other countries will sustain this debt. Where is the burden sharing? Where is the pain being felt by the banking system for the calamitous approach it took to global finances? There has to be a real debate about that.

We in Ireland cannot be condemned to these annual €3.1 billion promissory notes, nor can we be condemned to continue with these cuts and all the lobbies we have to face. I am sure if we had more Fine Gael and Labour Deputies here for this debate they would testify that their clinics are packed and their diaries are full of meetings with representations from schools, hospitals and other sectors that say they cannot sustain the cutbacks. There must be hope for a way out of this situation.

When the Taoiseach was first elected to the Dáil all those decades ago, I do not think he ever imagined that he would be presiding over such a scenario. At some point, he will have to give our people hope. He will have to go out there and find that Irish spirit, which has been there for generations, to do something about this. He will have to go in and say, "Folks, enough of the niceties and frivolities - the 500-lb gorilla in the room is this crisis which is not being addressed properly". He will have to tell Chancellor Angela Merkel that we do not have a crisis because the Irish people went mad borrowing and spending but because political leaders, the global banking system, estate agents and economists, who were paid by the financial institutions, utterly failed our people.

When the regular Joe Soaps and five eighths turned on their televisions at home every single night, an economist was telling them they had to buy now because house prices were going to rise further. Then they said there would be a soft landing. When they opened their newspapers, there were property supplements about lifestyles and how many houses were for sale. Our people are not Harvard, Yale or Trinity-educated economists; they are just hard-working, decent people but they were profoundly failed by their political leaders. When will that conversation take place? When will we say that those responsible for this will pay a price, like the former chief executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland who was stripped of his knighthood? When will there be a radical realignment of that system, instead of those responsible being rewarded in America as treasury secretaries, and in Europe being appointed as technocrat prime ministers or to the presidency of the ECB? Those are the very people in Goldman Sachs who drove this crisis. Mr. Peter Sutherland, a former European Commissioner and Irish Attorney General, is telling us that we should pay our way. He is not representing the interests of the Irish people, however. He is representing his pals in Goldman Sachs. At what point will we confront those who colluded to do so much harm to the people of Ireland, Europe and globally? The Taoiseach knows that Sinn Féin is right in this analysis. Why do we give these people a place at the top table?

We must allow the European Central Bank to access primary markets and purchase those government bonds. There has to be a way of deploying the European Investment Bank, the ECB and our collective wisdom to address this crisis and give our people hope. Sinn Féin does not want to see the destruction of the potential for a social Europe. Ireland cannot achieve her potential on her own. We must engage with the outside world in transacting business and building alliances. We must stand together and challenge injustices, including human rights abuses. We should be clear that there is a solution in working with our European partners, but at some stage we must collectively challenge those who caused this crisis. The Taoiseach can be sure that it is not the ordinary people of Mayo, Donegal or Dublin who did so.

I wish to share time with Deputies Shane Ross, Clare Daly, Richard Boyd Barrett and Seamus Healy.

A lot has been said about what this fiscal compact means for us and the rest of Europe. I would like to quote from Martin Wolf's article in the Financial Times today. He puts it pretty well when he states:

The ECB has saved the eurozone from a heart attack. But its members face a long convalescence, made worse by the insistence that fiscal starvation is the right remedy for feeble patients ... fiscal indiscipline is not all. Just as it was not the dominant cause of the collapse, but rather sloppy lending and improvident private borrowing, so fiscal discipline is not the cure. This attempt to vindicate the catastrophic austerity of Heinrich Brüning, German chancellor in 1930-1932, is horrifying. The perspective embodied in the fiscal compact - itself an attempt to revive the failed stability and growth pact - lacks the necessary understanding of the dependence of output in one member country on demand in others, of the role of payments imbalances and of the fact that competitiveness is always relative.

There is little doubt that the level of austerity that this brings to the rest of Europe suits Germany more than the other 26 member states. In fact, it can be argued that not one of the others is very fond of what is being imposed on them by Germany. The Germans are in control and very few in Europe seem to have the stomach to contradict our masters today. Regardless of whether we like it, it appears that the politicians no longer run Europe; it is being run by the financial markets and banking institutions. The latter institutions have probably been the most culpable in the current crisis. They are the ones who have lost most money and had the poorest business models, yet they are being saved. We are going to do everything that suits them, rather than those who are suffering at their hands.

This treaty definitely enshrines the German model of fiscal and monetarist rigour, as binding on the eurozone. It almost literally outlaws Keynesian economics. It was interesting to hear the German Chancellor, Dr. Merkel, saying on Saturday that "We will only be able to strengthen our common currency if we co-ordinate our policies more closely and are prepared to gradually give up more powers to the EU". So we are going to give up more powers to the EU, but I do not believe the Government got a mandate for doing that last February. There is a general election in this country every five years, but I do not think it appropriate that it is the only say the public should have in how things are done here. Given that the Government parties went into the election with various promises and a different mandate came out of it for them, I do not think they now have a mandate to do this. Whether it is demanded constitutionally or not, the Government has an obligation to put this matter to the people. We pretend to live in some form of democracy - a more fitting definition of this democracy is: "You can say what you like, and you do what you're told." We pretend, however, that it is a little bit more sociable than that, so I do not see how the Government can refuse to give the people a say on this matter. It is really important to do so.

Attending meetings on the household charge in recent weeks, I have noticed the amount of public interest in how the country is being run. It is fascinating and much greater than I could have anticipated. The notion that the people are not clued in to what is happening is completely dishonest. It is not true. I have been amazed at the level of interest and knowledge that people have all over the country in the current crisis. They would like a say on this issue. If this Government wants the mandate to work with this fiscal compact, it must be put to the people.

I agree with nearly everything Deputy Wallace said. Are the 24 other parliaments sitting today, with their Prime Ministers telling them it is a great victory and relating how they told European leaders the way forward at the Brussels summit on Monday? This is an agreement dictated by one nation to the rest of us. This is a German prescription for Europe. The Taoiseach's speech referred to that period being over and the future being growth, employment and small businesses but he is whistling past the graveyard. What was so notable about what he said is that what is going to happen in the future was not made specific. If anyone can tell me how austerity and a stimulus programme can be reconciled, that person should ascend into heaven immediately. It will not happen and this particular project will suppress growth, not just in Germany but throughout the 27 nations. Every member state is going back to their people and painting a false picture of the future. The economy of this country will be dictated by outside forces and in the main by one particular doctrine. We have accepted that. The idea that we can paint a picture of future growth, reductions in unemployment and a great future for SMEs is nonsense. It will not happen and the Taoiseach's refusal to spell out any projections for employment or unemployment indicates that to be the case. It would be an absurd hostage to fortune and the Department of Finance is projecting an unemployment rate that only comes down marginally during the tenure of the Taoiseach if he continues until 2015 or 2016. It is not realistic to do that and it would be better if we had a clear and honest message to the Irish people, that there will be very little growth, unless something extraordinary happens, and that this is part of a doctrine that we must adhere to in the future. That is the depressing message.

Yesterday, figures from the Central Bank show that lending to businesses, despite the Government's protestations, fell in December by 1.6%. The banks protest, along with their colleagues in government, that they have not just set targets but are lending more to businesses. They are not, they are lending less rather than more. The problem with the German, Dutch and Austrian agenda, which we are being asked to dance to, is that they are low unemployment areas, with Germany at 8.6%, Austria at 4.1% and the Netherlands at 4.9%. I said this during Leaders' Questions and I want to expand on it now.

Deputy Ross is eating into his colleagues' time.

They have no interest in unemployment or at least much less than this nation. Unemployment is not on their horizons.

Today, The Irish Times quoted Merkel saying the discussions over the weekend represented a masterpiece. With the exception of the Taoiseach, not many other people agree with the comment. Ordinary people across Europe who have been bearing the brunt of austerity have a very different perspective on the discussions taking place. The title, Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union, might be quite a clumsy mouthful but it is a simple proposition. It is a proposition to enforce institutionalised austerity, which people throughout Europe have been organising against. Is it any wonder that, in order to bring in these policies, we have seen a shift from democratic rights and entitlements throughout Europe, with the imposition of Governments of technocrats and bankers in Italy and Greece? The trappings of democracy have been discarded and our Government is no different because the dogs on the street know that the only purpose of the negotiations of the Taoiseach’s team was to manoeuvre a situation whereby Irish people are denied the right to have a say. Is that because the Government knows so much better than all the plebs sitting at home and has all the answers? Everyone knows the reason is that the Government is afraid that people suffering under the programmes being initiated will not tolerate the continuance of these policies. The Government would prefer to take the flak by hiding behind legal manoeuvres in order to avoid a referendum. However, the Government will not get away with it and it will be put under massive pressure inside and, more particularly, outside the House. The issues are too important.

What is being considered is not a minor tweaking of existing practices; the clear agenda is to institutionalise austerity and undermine democracy. One of the key provisions is the balanced budget and the attempt to outlaw any deficit greater than 0.5% of GDP. This is to outlaw expansionary fiscal policy and to enshrine the type of slash and burn policies implemented with such devastating consequences over the past number of years rather than policies of borrowing to invest in public works, create jobs and redevelop the economy. It is not just the lunatic left fringe that makes these points but also respected economists and Nobel prize-winning economists. Joseph Stiglitz described the discussions last week as "a mutual suicide pact", "the medieval practice of bloodletting", which will only make the situation for the patient worse. Any chance of recovery will be severely hindered by this deal. It would be a disaster to continue the policies that have failed so badly. A crucial component of this measure is the move to further economic governance, which takes significant budgetary powers from elected Governments to the unelected European Commission and the European Council. There are also massive fines for those who breach the targets. There is already a major problem in this country and other so-called democracies with political parties getting elected on a platform, coming to power and then doing the complete opposite of what they were elected to do. Can we imagine a scenario, against a backdrop of this treaty being voted for, where the same people shrug their shoulders, say there is nothing they can do, that they have no powers, and they are in place as the pet poodles of the European establishment?

One of the reasons these measures undermining democracy is being imposed is because governments feel the pressure from mass movements of ordinary people organising against austerity throughout Europe. Is it any wonder, when one considers the situation in Greece with youth unemployment at 50%? Surveys show that 91% of households have had a cut in income, the majority of which have taken cuts of 30%, and 78% of families are really struggling. There was the biggest general strike in Portugal since 1974 and a general strike in Belgium last week. People throughout Europe are organising against austerity and people in Ireland are no different. The debate we need is not whether we are in or out of Europe but the type of Europe we should have to serve the interests of the people, rather than to serve the wealthy elite at the top.

As I have said before in the House, the EU and IMF are not good samaritans helping out a country in need. They are ripping off this country to pay for the reckless lending of European, particularly French and German banks. The major European powers have insisted that the liability of Irish banks be absorbed into Irish State or sovereign debt.

The very wealthy in all eurozone countries indulged in an orgy of reckless lending, borrowing and fraudulent financial transactions. Now Ireland and other so-called programme countries, which are deeply indebted, are being unfairly burdened with the consequences forever under this imperialist treaty. Since coming to power, the Government has claimed its austerity programme is designed to "restore economic sovereignty". The same Government is now giving away our economic sovereignty forever. Most commentators agree that under this treaty Ireland will be in the equivalent of an EU-IMF programme in perpetuity.

To make matters worse, the Government, like its Fianna Fáil and Green Party predecessor, is determined to place the entire burden of debt and fiscal adjustment on those on low and middle incomes, while huge personal assets remain untaxed and the very wealthy do not pay their fair share in taxation. It goes without saying that there should and must be a referendum before any such treaty is ratified. Basic patriotism and loyalty to the interests of the Irish people should require any Irish public representative to call for a "No" vote. It is clear Ireland can stay within the European Union while rejecting this treaty, as the United Kingdom has done.

It is interesting to note that not a single Labour Party Deputy is in the House for this important debate. It is shameful that it should agree to handing over Irish sovereignty to new and old imperialist powers. It claims James Connolly as its founder. He advocated the reconquest of Ireland by its own people and the wrenching of economic and political sovereignty from foreign landlords and capitalists. Now the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, has rejected Connolly by consigning this country to economic servitude to major international capitalists forever. The replacement of the Labour Party is a matter of the utmost urgency and importance.

I want to put on record my support and that of the United Left Alliance for the initiative of the Technical Group in petitioning the President, Michael D. Higgins, to refer any Bill which might arise for consideration by way of referendum by the people.

Before the last election Fine Gael and the Labour Party railed against the arrogance of the Fianna Fáil Government and promised more democracy and accountability, open government and to get Ireland working. Yet, one year on the Government is conspiring with EU leaders to deny people a vote on the treaty which will further and substantially dismantle democracy across Europe and lock the citizens of this country and the rest of Europe into a straitjacket of austerity and cutbacks, which would guarantee mass unemployment and emigration for at least a decade if not longer and from which we may never recover.

It is extraordinary to hear the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, talk about how the Irish public would not understand the provisions of the treaty and get caught up in extraneous issues. It is unbelievably insulting-----

I think he was probably talking about the Deputy rather than the people of Ireland.

-----and antidemocratic. What will the next move be? Will we do away with elections altogether because the people do not understand what the sages on the other side of the House do?

Let us be absolutely clear about the legal position, no matter how the Government twists and turns to try to get out of it. The treaty refers to permanent measures. Permanent means no government can change them. If that is not an infringement of the constitutional right of the citizens of the country to determine their social and economic future, I do not know what is. Permanent means permanent and that is what the Government proposes to lock us into.

It then tried to cover this with blather about jobs which people are desperate for. Please explain to me how, if it can impose, as the treaty will require, at least ten years of brutal austerity to meet these targets, it can create jobs and growth? It is like saying one will save a drowning man while holding his head under water. People are being suffocated by austerity and cutbacks and are forced onto their backs by the burden of the casino gambling debts of toxic banks.

It is unbelievable. It is not just this economy that has been crushed by austerity. The economies of Germany and Europe are slowing down. Every forecaster, including the IMF and ESRI, says the economies in Europe and Ireland are slowing down. At what point does one realise it is not working and is strangling and crucifying our economy and the European economy?

Where do you propose the money comes from?

Put the people before the bankers and speculators. The Government should get our money back from them and invest in jobs and growth. If the Government will not listen to the people, the people had better start taking to the streets.

We have come to the questions and answers period. There are approximately 20 minutes. I propose to take one or two questions at a time and ask the Minister of State to respond.

I have dealt with our concerns about the limitations of the treaty. At a meeting I asked the Taoiseach whether the Government has undertaken any economic impact assessment of the treaty, in terms of its fiscal implications, its broader economic implications for the country and its impact on jobs, and whether he will publish such impact assessments and distribute them to Members of the House.

My second point relates to Article 3.2 of the treaty. The treaty requires fiscal rules to be introduced to Ireland "through provisions of binding force and permanent character". In effect, this would appear to require the Oireachtas to pass legislation giving permanent effect to these provisions. The requirement for permanence in the provision of the treaty appears to restrain any Oireachtas from amending or repealing the legislative provisions introduced to give effect to the treaty.

The existence of legislation which cannot be amended or repealed is not known in Irish law. As the Minister of State knows, Article 15.2.1° of Bunreacht na hÉireann provides that the sole and exclusive power of making laws for the State is vested in the Oireachtas. No other legislative authority has the power to make laws for the State. Can the Minister of State clarify that any future Oireachtas will be entitled to repeal or amend legislation on the statute books that would arise from the ratification of the treaty?

On the structural deficit target of 0.5%, has an indicative timeframe been put in place to achieve it? We all know how challenging the target of 3% by 2015 will be, but going a step further will involve substantial additional taxes and cuts. Can the Minister of State put a pricetag on achieving the target?

I thank Deputies for their statements, comments and questions.

The question asked by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl is connected to that asked by Deputy Martin. Programme countries such as Ireland, Greece and Portugal have paramount obligations which are taken into account in the treaty and allow for the programmes we are in to take precedence for the time being. The Government will conduct some form of fiscal analysis and assessment of what will be required beyond the programme but it is too early to say what it will find. That work will be undertaken, however, and it is already beginning in the Department of Finance.

On the question on the binding and permanent nature of the debt brake, it was the intention of the Government, before this treaty was even contemplated, to introduce a fiscal responsibility Bill, a legislative debt brake. That is what we intend to do. We believe it will essentially be in line with what is provided for in the treaty. I disagree absolutely and reject the contention that introducing the measure via legislation, or including wording within the physical compact which allows for alternative ways of introducing the debt brake within different member states, was somehow to try to avoid a referendum in Ireland.

There are many different legal systems in the European Union, as the Deputies will know. Every member state has its own hierarchy of legislation. In some countries, the constitution can be changed by the parliament, but that is not the case here. In other countries, there are tiers of legislation, ranging from regulations to other measures, all with different levels of effect.

Will a future Oireachtas be able to repeal legislation and still remain compliant?

When Ireland signs up to international obligations, we transpose them into international law. That is what will be happening, in effect, in the fiscal responsibility Bill.

That is not-----

Allow me to answer the Deputy's question. If a Bill is repealed by the Parliament, we will no longer be in compliance with international law. There is no precedent for that in Ireland-----

Therefore, we would not be complying with the treaty. How can the Government sign up to it in that case?

-----but on the basis that any legislation that passes through this House can be amended in future legislation. The power to make, repeal or amend legislation still rests with the Parliament. If the Parliament were to repeal the legislation, we would be in breach of international obligations.

How can we sign up to it then?

That is not the intent. As with any convention we have signed up to-----

It is not any convention.

If we legislate in this Parliament to sign up to a UN convention or other international treaty, we do so in order to comply with it. However, if a future Government chose to introduce amending legislation to renege on obligations, then it would be reneging on obligations.

Therefore, it is not of a permanent or binding character.

That is open to the Parliament. It would, however, be in breach of international obligations. The circumstances are exactly the same in respect of any other international treaty we sign up to, as Deputy Martin well knows.

The introduction of abortion-----

He is long enough in this House to understand how legislation operates. At least, I hope he understands it.

There is a problem there and the Minister of State knows it.

The Taoiseach, in his statement, more or less highlighted the fact that the deficit brake and the making of the commitment as binding as possible were very much sought on the Irish side. He was saying there was Irish input. The Minister of State is saying there was no fleshing out of the financial consequences of what we were taking on board and she has implied it was too early to do so. Have we any idea what Ireland will look like in ten years if we make this commitment, bearing in mind the taxes that will be taken from people and the services it will be possible to provide? Was this matter not considered beforehand?

We are told this measure is in conformity with the other treaties of the European Union. This treaty is obviously intergovernmental. How could it possibly conform with other treaties of the Union that have a social component? That social component is completely ignored in favour of an austerity approach that cannot deliver on the social obligations.

The Taoiseach set out on Leaders' Questions that the SMEs will comprise a great deliverer of jobs. We heard from Deputy Ross that there is a decrease in bank lending. That comes as no surprise to any of us because we hear it all the time from people. Was the measure really posited as the Irish approach? Does the Minister of State genuinely believe we are taking all these steps for the SME sector? For the past 12 months, we have been waiting for the rationalisation of the county enterprise boards. We are told continually this is imminent, yet there is nothing but red tape. While the Government is saying it is taking all the steps, I do not see them being taken, and there are many others who do not either. There is an element of codding the European Union by means of what we are doing.

On the European Stability Mechanism, the Minister of State will recall that we asked the Taoiseach and Tánaiste whether they would publish the advice of the Attorney General leading them to conclude a referendum is not required. If the Attorney General advises that a referendum is not required, will the Government publish the rationale therefor?

The European Stability Mechanism treaty is a separate agreement between the eurozone members. Will the Minister of State explain how the second last paragraph in the preamble, which imposes the condition that member states must sign up to the intergovernmental agreement to avail of the provision, can be applied to the European Stability Mechanism? There are two separate documents. The European Stability Mechanism is under EU law.

The Taoiseach stated in December the Government was working on economic costings. Will these be made available to the Opposition when they become available?

On Deputy Murphy's question on Article 3 and whether we have a picture as to what Ireland will look like in ten years, I can tell her what Ireland will look like in a year or a year and a half if we do not continue to benefit from the assistance we are receiving from the IMF, European Union and European Central Bank.

That is not my question.

It is the same question, however, because the bottom line is that this State is absolutely required to continue to fund day-to-day services, including educational and health care services.

The Minister of State should just answer the question.

We have no alternative, as the Deputy well knows, but to work with the programme we have. We will continue to do so and to comply with the sorts of obligations to which we have signed up.

It is true that the treaty is very much anchored in existing EU legislation and treaties. A stated objective in the text of the treaty is to have a review within five years. Another objective is that the treaty will ultimately be subsumed into the body of existing EU law. That is desirable because, at present, two member states are outside the treaty's scope, and 25 member states are likely to sign up. Our objective is to bring it back within the parameters of existing treaties. There is nothing new in that almost all of what is contained in the treaty already exists under our obligations under the Stability and Growth Pact. It is very much in our interest to make the pact function in a way it has not done since the creation of monetary union. The biggest problem the eurozone faces is the reality that member states simply flouted the provisions-----

Germany and France.

There was no automatic sanctioning if member states did not comply. The biggest offenders were the larger member states. I do not need to repeat that in this Chamber. The very significant change in the text of this treaty is that those sanctions will now be automatic. It will not be necessary to achieve a majority of member states to vote in favour of imposing sanctions because it will happen automatically. As a member of the euro currency - the monetary union - that is absolutely in our interest.

If I can project where we will be in ten years time, it is of course our objective to have a stabilised currency which has clear rules and regulations, some of which are contained in this fiscal treaty, with which member states will be obliged to comply. If we can achieve that sort of stability in the short term, the long-term prospects for the euro zone and for all of the things we have talked about in terms of future prosperity for the people of Europe, job creation and so on, the key to this is investment. Europe is a deeply unattractive place for investment at the present; indeed, Ireland is one of the few exceptions to that. Our objective is to put in place a framework, of which this is one element, to stabilise our currency in order to ensure we can set about the very important task of trying to grow.

The Government is not, as Deputy Martin tried to suggest earlier, under any illusion that this is the ultimate solution or a solution in its own right. It is simply an element of a solution. That is why it is read and perceived in the context of the broader European treaty body of legislation and the European founding treaties, all of which aspire to defending and strengthening the European social model, to which Deputy Mac Lochlainn referred. While it is extremely important we maintain that objective at the very core of what we are doing at European level, we cannot just pretend this fiscal crisis does not exist, that we do not need to balance our books and that we can continue spending money we simply do not have. There has to be an element of realism in all of this. By instilling and enshrining these rules and their enforceability in the broader European legal framework, we will go a long way to doing that.

It is not a question of choosing one model or the other. It is simply a question of binding our ambition to impose rules and regulations, which have been ignored in the past, and to couple them with the social model, the social Europe agenda and, obviously, with the biggest priority of all, which is to get back to a position of growth and job creation.

Finally, there was a question in regard to the whole area of SMEs. There is no question, and I do not believe anybody in Government has ever suggested, that we can solve the major challenge in our domestic economy overnight. However, we have begun to put in place policies-----

This is a Second Stage speech.

I must ask the Minister of State to conclude.

I have been asked multiple questions. I can either answer them or not.

Time is short so we must be as brief as possible.

In that case, I will take more questions. I am sorry I could not respond to all of the previous questions.

Perhaps the Minister of State can deal with some of the queries in her wrap-up.

That is what I propose. The Minister of State will have five minutes to respond. I call Deputy Peter Mathews.

I am sorry there is so little time. The opening lines of the treaty signed in recent days read "CONSCIOUS of the obligation of the Contracting Parties, as Member States of the European Union, to regard their economic policies as a matter of common concern..." That is the open invitation-----

I have. Please-----

I am conscious of time and want to allow other colleagues in.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn said we have a 500 lb gorilla. It is not; the crisis of Europe is actually a 2,000 lb gorilla. When I was with the finance committee-----

Does the Deputy have a question?

When I was with the finance and public expenditure committee, meeting other committees in the Bundestag, we put to them information of which they were clearly not aware. These people are on the budgetary committee of the Bundestag, with a €300 billion budget. I put it to them that the loan losses in our banking system were 60% of our national income or GDP. If the same problem had arisen in Germany, it would be a €300 billion part of its GDP. We were being asked, silently, to bear this load, which was wrong.

A question for the Minister of State, please.

I will reiterate the question asked by Deputy Mac Lochlainn. At the summit on Monday, why was the question of the unsustainability of private banking debt that has now been socialised in this country not on the agenda for discussion?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I have the Deputy's question. I will try to get a response to it.

The ESRI equivalent in Germany was not aware that the three elements of debt in this economy comprised private household debt and non-financial corporate debt as well as the sovereign debt, which is the focus of the fiscal compact. Our private household debt and non-financial corporate debt is twice the size of that of Greece, which is in the emergency ICU.

The Deputy has asked the question. I want to move on to another colleague, if that is all right.

What is happening today is really a shame. We are boxed into the old traditions-----

I am sorry. I am restricted by the time. I want to give other colleagues a chance. It is a question and answer session, which I hope the Deputy will appreciate. I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.

Deputy Flanagan has not had a chance to speak. I will give way.

First, I congratulate the Government on getting one hell of a deal for Germany. I would say all the Irish pubs there are packed with German people celebrating how wonderful we are to them, and they will be for quite some time. To be fair to the Minister of State, she sounds convinced this is the way forward and would be wonderful for our country. Given that during the general election the Government did not put this to the people and never asked them this big question on our future and our sovereignty, if it is that convinced of it, why does it not put it to the Irish people? I suggest the Government is not that convinced of it. If it was, it would go to the people in the morning, but it is not that convinced.

Will the Minister of State explain, given the targets of the EU-IMF programme, which require sucking huge amounts of money out of the economy up to 2015 with a further requirement to go beyond that to meet the targets in this treaty, how we will get growth and where that growth will come from? Will the Minister of State respond to the downgrading of growth projections for this economy and the European economy? Does she acknowledge at any level that this has something to do with austerity? How does continued austerity for at least a decade produce jobs and growth? It does not compute.

To get to the 3% deficit, we know what is coming down the tracks in terms of reductions and cutbacks of €3.8 billion this year and €3.2 billion next year. Surely, before the Taoiseach agreed to this treaty, he had some idea of what figures are involved in getting us to the 0.5% target to which we are told there must be rapid convergence. Will the Minister of State explain what are the cutbacks or expenditure reductions over the period, and what period of time is involved in regard to the 0.5%?

I am trying to square the circle following the Minister of State's reply in regard to Article 3.2. How can anybody look Chancellor Angela Merkel in the eye, as the Taoiseach did, and sign up to something that has to be of binding force and permanent character, and then say in the House that future Oireachtais can actually repeal and amend it? There seems to be a disingenuous dimension to this. The situation is unclear.

It is not disingenuous.

I am asking for clarification.

The Deputy is trying to create something out of nothing.

Stop being so partisan about everything, Minister, and just listen to the questions you have been asked. It is a very valid question.

Partisan is becoming your middle name as you try to outflank those sitting on your right.

The Deputies should speak through the Chair.

What do "permanent character" and "binding force" mean? I only want the answer.

I ask the Minister of State and Deputy Martin to resume their seats. I will seek clarity. There are many questions for the Minister of State and she must answer them as best she can in the five minutes available.

For the sake of three or four minutes, can we give the Minister of State every opportunity to respond?

I have been very fair and have given every speaker a fair opportunity in the time allocated. The Minister of State has five minutes to respond.

In fairness to the Minister of State-----

The Deputy is eating into that time.

I appreciate that.

I accept the point Deputy Mathews makes. I absolutely appreciate there is a concern that debt sustainability was not a featured item on the agenda at the summit on Monday. However, it has been featured at numerous summits in recent months. There was a decision by Heads of Government that on this occasion the focus would be on two issues, the first being finalising the text of the fiscal compact. The Deputy may not agree with it but that is the decision they took. The other was to focus primarily on the issue of jobs, growth and exploring various ways in which the institutions of the European Union might be used to assist member states in their efforts. These include, for example, ways in which the European Investment Bank could be leveraged in order to work with member states to develop opportunities in investment and infrastructural projects and so on. That is something our Government is exploring in some detail.

The Commission proposal on project bonds, for example, is a matter the Government is discussing and specific Departments have been charged with investigating and identifying specific opportunities for Ireland. There are a number of positive outcomes from the summit. The issue of the sustainability of Ireland's debt, as Members know, is under discussion with-----

It is not understood.

It is under discussion. The Deputy can take issue with whether it is understood. I assume the Minister for Finance would have a different view. We are in ongoing negotiations with the troika. As the Deputy knows, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, spoke last week with the President of the ECB. That work will take a little time but it is progressing. I am very optimistic about it. I do not subscribe to all the doom and gloom.

It is not doom and gloom. It is reality.

There are some good news stories about the way in which-----

-----Ireland has been moving much closer to recovery than either of the other two programme countries, or a number of other member states.

What about the bonds? Is the Minister of State joking?

For example, we returned to positive growth in 2011, which is something about which this Chamber seems not particularly interested.

(Interruptions).

Although unemployment is a massive cause for concern for this Government, as I assume it is for all governments in Europe, there has been a small dent in it. It has fallen from 14.7% to 14.2%. The decline is very slow but it is positive and very important.

On putting the question to the people, Deputy Flanagan asked whether a referendum is required, constitutionally. I do not agree. We have never had a referendum in this State that was not intended to amend the Constitution. Deputy Martin knows this well.

We had a referendum in 1999 on local government.

I find it a little ironic that we are hearing very mixed messages from Fianna Fáil. Last Sunday Deputy Calleary stated on television he would not have a referendum unless it was required by the Constitution. Then Deputy Martin changed his tune. Interestingly, he stated on Monday in The Irish Times he was tired of leaders who cared more about domestic opinion polls than about solving the crisis.

Here we go again.

Then he turned around and changed his position the following day because of opinion polls. This was the well-known position of his party when in government, not merely for years but for decades. It is a little rich. It would be very interesting to hear the self-professed pro-European party come forward and lay its cards on the table.

Here we go again. We get this all the time.

There is so much conflicting information coming from it.

The Minister of State is too partisan. She will alienate more people by the way she goes on.

The reality is-----

I asked a question. Is there an answer?

This Government is absolutely committed to moving this State forward. We have had a very positive experience over the past ten or 11 months in making a small dent in unemployment rates and negotiating downwards the interest rate on our bailout programme. This has had a significant impact and will save the State approximately €10 billion.

We are working very hard to come to an arrangement in regard to promissory notes, as Members of the House were informed by the Taoiseach. We will continue our efforts to ensure we arrive at better terms and conditions for this State in terms of debt sustainability and prospects for growth and job creation.

However, that is not to say we will not work with our European partners to ensure that in future member states will comply with the terms of the Stability and Growth Pact. If we do not have clear rules in place and if these are not enforceable our currency will never regain credibility and confidence on the world markets. If that does not happen not only Ireland but the whole European Union will be in a very dangerous place.

There is a lot of positivity but the Deputy is clearly not interested in much of it.

Top
Share