Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Feb 2012

Vol. 754 No. 1

Priority Questions

Household Charge

1.Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government if he intends to make up any shortfall that may emerge in the local Government fund between the estimated €160 million due to be collected in the household charge and the €164 million allocated by the Exchequer in 2011; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5951/12]

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

As part of the efforts to close the gap between income and expenditure in the public finances, the 2012 Exchequer allocation to local government was reduced in budget 2012 by €164 million compared to 2011. The introduction of the household charge in 2012 is therefore timely to allow local authorities to have the necessary resources to deliver services to their communities at close to existing levels in the coming year.

It is estimated that there are some 1.6 million residential properties potentially liable to the household charge. As such, if collected in full, the household charge has the potential to raise €160 million annually. The household charge is framed on a self assessment basis at a point in time. It is a matter for those who own residential property liable to the charge to declare this and pay the charge by the due date, 31 March 2012. As an incentive to pay the self assessment charge, late payment fees and late payment interest apply, and any amounts due and unpaid remain as a charge against the property concerned. Such amounts will have to be discharged in the event of the sale or transfer of the property concerned.

Over 68,000 properties have registered to pay the household charge from 1 to 31 January 2012. This represents some €6.8 million. The large number of people paying the charge is a clear indication of compliance with the legislation and an acceptance that the household charge is necessary to fund vital local services in our communities.

Motor tax is also a source of funding to the local government fund. I am concerned at the high level of off-the-road vehicle declarations being made, and am conscious of the need to tighten the current system of declaring vehicles off the road. I intend to bring forward legislative proposals in the near future on this matter.

I will be keeping the income being generated from the household charge under constant review and I and local authorities will take any necessary measures, as appropriate, in regard to compliance with the legislation.

Deputy Niall Collins

As of the end of January, about 4% of households had paid the household charge and we are one third of the way through the payment period. Concerns are being expressed by local authorities that not all the money targeted for collection will materialise. In his reply, the Minister said that "if collected in full, the household charge has the potential to raise €160 million annually". What measures can he take to plug the shortfall for local authorities, if there is one?

As regards exemptions and waivers, what is the process for adding unfinished housing estates to the schedule of estates already published on the website? Elected representatives throughout the country, including myself, have been contacted by people to say that their estates have not been included in the schedule of unfinished estates.

Some concern has been expressed about the household charge form. It has been brought to my attention that it does not appear to be like other normal, official Government forms. There is no harp or departmental name on it. It has been queried as to whether making a cheque or money order payable to "household charge" is a legal entity for the receipt of payments. Is there a technicality concerning that?

With regard to the receipt of payments by local authorities, if a person pays in cash they will receive a receipt, but if they pay by cheque I understand that the local authority merely takes the cheque and forwards it to the central processing unit. If the Minister fails to collect the target of €160 million, how does he intend to compensate local authorities which have gone through their budgeting process on foot of that?

Deputy Phil Hogan

It is a hypothetical situation. The collection date for the charge is 31 March 2012. In line with the experience of the second home charge, approximately 4% or 5% were registered at the same time in the three-month registration period for that charge. We are not unduly concerned because people pay at the last minute in most cases because they have the use of that money for a longer period of time. They do not have to pay until 31 March and no penalties apply until after that. We will examine the situation and receive the final figures for the collection process at the end of March.

People should receive a receipt and local authorities should make offices available where they can take the money and give receipts, as set out in the legislation. I asked the County and City Managers Association to co-operate by taking in cash where there are motor tax offices, where receipts can be provided for the money taken.

Regarding unfinished estates, the categories are clearly defined in the legislation, category 3 and category 4. In general, these are not estates taken in charge by the local authority. They have been categorised by local authorities in conjunction with the Department.

Deputy Niall Collins

Is there a process to add an estate that is not included?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The schedule has been laid down but I am sure any Deputy can make a case to the county manager. Ultimately, the county and city managers are responsible for the care and management of the collection of the charge. It can be considered if the estates are deemed to have been omitted in error.

Deputy Niall Collins

What is the process for making an application to the local authority?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The strict letter of the law is that estates are liable for payment if they have not been included in the schedule outlined in legislation. Ultimately, like any scheme, if the Deputy makes a strong case to the local manager, it will be examined to see if a genuine mistake has been made.

Deputy Niall Collins

Can the schedule be added to?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The care and management of the scheme is in the charge of the local authority and the manager is in charge of that authority.

Water Services

Brian Stanley

Question:

2Deputy Brian Stanley asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the process, time frame and the terms of reference for the consultation process on drafting standards for septic tanks in line with the Water Services Bill 2011; and his plans for the establishment of a grant scheme for households who cannot afford to upgrade their septic tanks to meet those standards. [5950/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan

Section 70 of the Water Services Act 2007 provides that owners of septic tanks and other on-site wastewater treatment systems must ensure that their systems do not cause a risk to human health or the environment. The Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 augments the requirements of the 2007 Act and introduces a new registration and inspection system for septic tanks and other on-site wastewater treatment systems.

I am glad to say the President has signed the legislation. It is my intention, following the enactment of the legislation, to carry out a public consultation on draft performance standards for domestic wastewater treatment systems, which will be prepared by my Department in consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency. These standards will also include the minimum requirements for the maintenance and de-sludging of treatment systems. The consultation process, which will be open for four weeks, will commence later this month.

I have previously signalled my intention to keep under review all possible options to provide financial support to householders whose systems, following inspection, are deemed to require substantial remediation or upgrading. The position regarding the extent of failing systems and remediation costs arising will become clear when inspections are under way. However, any support must have regard to the overall budgetary situation and to the financial position of individual households.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Minister said that the consultation process would start later this month. Is he talking about three or four weeks time or next week? The Bill has been passed and was signed into law by the President today. How will people have an opportunity to have an input to this? We are not clear on the standards. The Bill has been passed by the Dáil and the Seanad and the President has signed the Bill. What will be the process and what will be the terms of reference? Are the draft standards available and can we see them? Must the Minister get EU approval of the draft standards and, if so, has it been received? Will the Minister take on board submissions from the public? It is fine having public consultation but sometimes it is little more than a box ticking exercise to say that the Department, the Government or the council has consulted with people. I do not want to be cynical and I take it at face value that the Minister is entering into this in a genuine way. It is important that people's views are taken on board. Will the standards refer to site size?

How will noise and odours be measured? It could be very subjective. What level of noise from pumps will be acceptable and how will the odour level be measured? I welcome the fact that the Minister is taking a risk-based approach. We have discussed this many times and it is the correct way to go. We need to give some certainty to people in high-risk areas close to aquifers and water sources, particularly those who will be in financial difficulty, that they will not be criminalised if they cannot upgrade and meet the standards very quickly as required in the Bill.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Deputy Stanley has had a long period of time as the legislation was passing through the Oireachtas to tease out these issues. No matter how often I say things, people read in whatever they want.

Deputy Brian Stanley

That is the problem, the answers are too vague.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We are here because the European Court of Justice lodged a judgment against Ireland in 2009 and we must deal with it. We must get agreement from the European Commission for anything we do. I have been in discussion with the European Commission in the past number of weeks and I am pleased to say that we have agreed these matters with the European Commission and the EPA.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Has that been done?

Deputy Phil Hogan

Yes, we must file a defence on the part of the State tomorrow so we had to have agreement. I will publish the regulations and standards shortly and will set out the agreement we reached in order to comply with the European Court of Justice ruling.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Minister says he has the agreement of the EU and EPA on the standards, which will soon be published. I look forward to that. In the case of a pre-1963 septic tank, that did not require planning permission and that was built at the house owner's discretion, will it comply with the standards? The question also applies to those of a basic standard after that date.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Deputy Stanley will see the standards when they are published. There will be a four-week period of consultation and the misinformation and scaremongering by Fianna Fáil, Independents and Sinn Féin in public meetings around the country will be seen for what it is, generating fuss about nothing.

Deputy Niall Collins

The same as the Dog Breeding Establishments Act.

Local Authority Services

Mattie McGrath

Question:

3Deputy Mattie McGrath asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the status of the amalgamation of South Tipperary County Council and North Tipperary County Council; the proposed location for the new head office; the savings to be made; his views on the fact that amalgamating town and borough councils into county councils would yield much greater cost savings and would be far more practical than amalgamating two whole county councils; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6177/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Government decided in July 2011 that a unified local authority would be established to replace the existing north and south Tipperary county councils with effect from the 2014 local elections. An implementation group was appointed to oversee planning, preparatory work and initial implementation of the reorganisation process. The group submitted a progress report to me in November 2011, in accordance with its terms of reference. This report, which is published on my Department's website indicated good progress with the unification process and identified a range of positive outcomes from unification, including reduced administrative costs and overheads, effective deployment of human resources, more streamlined, effective and coherent delivery of customer services across the county, and streamlining of other existing county structures.

The implementation group had considered that both of the existing office headquarters in Clonmel and Nenagh should be retained with equal status and that a location in the centre of the county should be identified for meetings of the unified council. The implementation group is due to complete an implementation plan by May 2012, which will provide further details and guide the reorganisation process up to the establishment of the unified authority in 2014. Building on decisions already taken, including the merger of the county councils in Tipperary, I intend to bring wider policy proposals to Government in the near future on local government reform and development, with particular attention being given to strengthening local government structures generally at regional, county and sub-county levels and expanding the role of local government. Decisions on any further changes in local authority structures, including decisions on municipal governance within counties, will be a matter for the Government in that context.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister said there is an implementation group which, as he knows, I have an issue with in terms of its make-up. I welcome the fact there will be a progress report which I have seen and read. Where will the savings be made? The Minister said there would be savings in administration. If there will be two headquarters, what will be different from what is currently in place? We will have to acquire another premises unless the council meets at the Rock of Cashel, which the OPW might facilitate. The Minister also referred to the delivery of better and more streamlined services. I do not know how that will happen. We will still have offices and two administrations. The Minister has not answered my question on town councils. I ask him to enlighten me about that in his reply.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I will be able to enlighten the Deputy further on town councils and borough councils in about two months time when I will bring proposals about local government matters and structures generally to Government. At that time I will also indicate where savings can be made by all local authorities, including Tipperary. We can achieve a lot more in savings by streamlining all of the activities in local government to one particular structure in Co Tipperary. We would see the effective delivery of those structures without duplication. We have seen this happen already over the years, such as the library service which merged north and south to form one library service. That is the sort of model we will see across a range of services delivered by local government in County Tipperary and I expect considerable savings will be made which will enhance its economic and social development.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I will get an answer in two months time. It is like the answer to previous questions. We are expected to accept there will be standards but the Minister will not tell us when they will be delivered. There is the same mystique around this. The Minister likes to create mystique around himself and his position and we have to wait and see what will happen. Money was put into offices in Waterford to maintain and enhance the status quo.

We clash every September, as in the all-Ireland final which is fine because it is sporting, but there is no need to beat up those in Tipperary because we do not take kindly to that. The Ceann Comhairle has an interest in Tipperary. We do not lie down easily and there is an old saying: "Where Tipperary leads Ireland follows." I ask the Minister to make haste slowly.

I do not see where savings can be made because where there was one headquarters there will now be two. I understand from some colleagues that the Minister has changed his mind on the town council aspect. I will have to wait for white smoke from the Fine Gael early Parliamentary Party like we had last night. I welcome what was decided. Perhaps something will happen here. I am not happy.

Why did the Minister pick retired Government officials to be part of the advisory group when 465,000 people are unemployed, some of whom are highly skilled and have a clean image? I am not saying the officials were bad but they are retired and were obviously partisan because of their views over the years. The Minister knows that. Why did he not pick unemployed people rather than bringing back retired people? He also appointed a north Tipperary county manager to chair the group which is not fair to south Tipperary.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am surprised Deputy McGrath has a problem with a Tipperary man serving as an acting manager of County Tipperary structures. It does not augur well for the future in terms of unifying the country.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

No it does is not.

Deputy Phil Hogan

As a Kilkenny man I am delighted to be able to bring about that reunification because the Deputy has a protectionist mentality about north and south Tipperary-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We stopped Cromwell.

Deputy Phil Hogan

------which I am delighted to be able to overcome and bring them together. I can assure the Deputy-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a bulldozing approach.

Deputy Phil Hogan

-----that I am not bulldozing. I am taking my time. The Deputy looked for answers today and I told him I would give him some on local government in County Tipperary in two months time, which is a reasonable length of time. Equally, there are people with the skills required to bring about savings and administrative structures in local government. Not everybody has the skills, including the Deputy and I.

An Ceann Comhairle

It will not affect the hurling team anyway.

Political Reform

Niall Collins

Question:

4Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government his plans for political reform in 2012; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5952/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Government in 2011 set out a broad and ambitious programme for political reform. Responsibility for this rests with a number of Ministers. My responsibility is in the areas of electoral and local government reform.

On 15 December 2011, I published the Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill. This makes provision for the restriction of corporate donations, a reduction in the amounts that can be received as political donations and a reduction in the thresholds for declaring such donations. Political parties will be required to submit their annual accounts to the Standards in Public Office Commission for publication.

The Bill also includes a provision linking the achievement of a gender balance in the selection of candidates of political parties at a general election to the State funding provided to parties under the Electoral Act 1997. The Bill commenced Second Stage in the Seanad today and I look forward to its early enactment in 2012.

The Government legislative programme announced on 11 January makes provision for the publication in 2012 of the electoral (amendment) (referendum spending and miscellaneous provisions) Bill. This Bill will provide for the disclosure of expenditure and donations at referendum campaigns and for the extension of the spending limit period that applies at presidential, Dáil, European and local elections.

The Electoral (Amendment) Act 2011, enacted in July 2011, changed the terms of reference of the constituency commission to provide for a reduced number of Deputies. Section 9(1) of the Electoral Act 1997 requires a constituency commission to present its report to the Chairman of the Dáil no later than three months after the publication by the CSO of the final results of the census in respect of the total population of the State. I understand the CSO intends to publish the final results of the 2011 census at the end of March 2012.

Based on the experience with reports presented by previous constituency commissions, I expect to bring forward legislation this year arising from the constituency commission's report. I will outline my plans for local government reform later when replying to the separate questions on today's Order Paper. As I already indicated to Deputy McGrath, I expect to bring proposals to Government in two months' time.

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Minister. On the proposals on local government reform, to which he alluded in his reply, he said he will bring forward his proposals on town councils. In my county, Limerick, Limerick City Council and County Council will merge into a single entity. We have to be very careful not to dilute democracy and local government representation completely. The combined number of local representatives on both the authorities is 45 and the figure being mooted is between 32 and 34. The matter will have to be thrashed out.

If one is going to pursue a policy of retaining town and borough councils, which has merit because it is local democracy, one has to bear in mind that local public representatives cost a relatively insignificant amount of money in the overall scheme of local government. While we are trying to achieve savings by merging entities, the majority of costs do not involve local public representatives.

We need to get the balance right in terms of not diluting local democracy completely. It would not make sense to have a 32 member single authority in Limerick and retain seven town councils in a neighbouring county such as Tipperary. Such a situation would not be equitable.

I ask the Minister to enlighten us as to whether he intends to proceed with directly elected mayor in Limerick. He listed his agenda for other areas of political reform. I understand changing the voting age is in the programme for Government. What is the position on the proposal to abolish the Seanad?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The proposal to abolish the Seanad is a matter for another Minister and the Government has not yet decided when that will happen. It is in the programme for Government and it will make a decision in due course. Directly elected mayors will be considered in the context of local government reform and no conclusions have been reached on that in Limerick, Dublin or anywhere else.

On the general view that public representatives do not contribute much to the savings, I agree that representational allowances and expenses are a small part of the overall budgets but they are supported by a considerable number of administrative and other staff across the various programme areas in town and county councils. At a time when there are very serious financial problems and when we are interested in devolving more functions and powers, and streamlining the effective delivery of services, it is only reasonable to consider the fact there are too many councillors and councils. This will be reflected in the proposals I will bring forward in two months. It is already reflected in what I am doing in Limerick city and county, and in north and south County Tipperary.

Social and Affordable Housing

Dessie Ellis

Question:

5Deputy Dessie Ellis asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government his plans for the use of social housing from the National Assets Management Agency stock; the estimated cost; and the way these will be paid for. [6168/12]

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O’Sullivan) (Deputy Jan O’Sullivan)

The housing agency is working with NAMA to determine the social housing demand for individual properties identified by NAMA. In that context, the agency is contacting the relevant local authorities to consider existing demand in terms of numbers, types and locations of properties required to meet social housing needs in the relevant authorities. The agency will provide a co-ordinated response to NAMA with a view to securing as many of the properties as are suitable as quickly as possible.

The units being advanced through NAMA will, in general, be provided through the social housing leasing initiative under the standard terms and conditions that apply in that scheme. A local authority will have the option of leasing the properties directly from the relevant borrower or receiver. Alternatively, an approved housing body may secure the properties through direct leasing or, in some cases, by purchasing using private or HFA finance and leasing them back to the State.

It is not possible at this stage to estimate the cost of leasing these properties. Lease costs are determined by negotiation using a standard discounted market price which may vary to reflect the circumstances of a particular case and the terms of the contractual agreement. The current average annual cost of units leased from the private or voluntary sector under the leasing scheme generally is approximately €7,400.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Just before Christmas, NAMA announced it had approximately 2,000 properties available for local authorities and housing associations and that funding would be made available through the social housing leasing scheme, which the Minister of State mentioned.

NAMA bought the debts at a reduced rate. It did not buy the properties. Would it not make more sense to call in the debts and have the properties returned to the State fully owned if the property developers cannot deliver? It does not make sense for local authorities to rent from developers who, in turn, will use the money to pay NAMA. Will the money go directly to NAMA or to the property developers who, in turn, will pay off NAMA? Since the scheme is a lease scheme, does this mean the properties will be returned to the developers? If so, they will have it both ways in that they will get their properties back and the local authorities and housing associations will pay the debts. This is a matter of the State paying on the double. It does not make sense. Could the Minister of State address some of these points?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

The proposal is to achieve value for money for the State. The capital budget has been reducing considerably in recent years and is quite low at this stage. We are obtaining good value for the State in that we are accommodating a sizeable number of people under leasing arrangements. Approximately 20,000 households are accommodated under leasing and RAS arrangements. NAMA properties will be under the scheme.

We must operate according to the law. NAMA has been given a legal role and, although we may wish local authorities could acquire properties for nothing from NAMA, the reality is that this cannot be done. The properties in NAMA are there because the owners concerned cannot pay their debts. This is a way of using the properties available under NAMA to house families who need housing in a way that represents value for money and which will work for those concerned.

The Deputy stated approximately 2,000 units have been made available. We must assess whether they are suitable and in appropriate areas. There are a number of elements that must be determined but what will happen in effect is that approximately 2,000 units will be made available for social housing in various parts of the country. They will provide homes for people. While we might wish to obtain the properties for nothing, this simply cannot happen; it is not a realistic proposal. They must be acquired at market values and in a way that works under the regular leasing systems already in place.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

We are not requesting the properties for nothing. We have paid for them. We have certainly bailed out many people in doing so. We have helped to get many developers out of hot water. I do not accept we are asking for the houses for nothing.

The Minister of State said the scheme may result in a short-term gain, but in the longer term it is not in the best interest of the country. It is certainly not in the interest of the State that we are paying developers to pay off NAMA. It does not make sense. We should consider another way of doing business. The Minister of State is saying there is a legal requirement based on the approach we have taken. It appears as if we are helping developers who got themselves into trouble and paying them on the double.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

This is essentially about providing homes for families who need them. NAMA has been given a job by the State to get the best possible value for taxpayers' money with regard to the properties that have come under its remit. It has a social element and this is in the legislation. It is in accordance with this element that houses are being sought for those in need of them around the country. The State is ensuring this will be done in a way that represents value for money and which provides good homes for the people who need them. This work is ongoing.

Under the legislation, NAMA must operate in a way that provides some return to the taxpayer. Ultimately, the taxpayer must be protected. I am very happy as Minister of State responsible for housing to stand over what we are doing in this regard. The people who will ultimately be accommodated because of this will also be very happy.