Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Feb 2012

Vol. 754 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Tax Reliefs

Deputy Anne Ferris

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this issue, as it is one that affects thousands of people around the country, not least in my home constituency of Wicklow, and has recently been highlighted in the media.

These past few years have been difficult for many home owners who are struggling to keep their heads above water. I have been contacted repeatedly by constituents from Bray to Greystones and from Arklow to Baltinglass who are worried about how to cope with mortgage payments they cannot sustain. There are too many in negative equity and too many who bought at the height of the market for fear of being left behind by a market that eventually had a hard landing.

The Government, I know, is doing what it can to help people caught in these untenable situations. I have in past times welcomed such initiatives as were contained in the Keane report, and I look forward to seeing the personal insolvency Bill passed as soon as possible. Indeed, as Vice Chairman of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I very much look forward to hearing from interested parties with regard to the heads of the Bill, which will come before the committee soon. While I welcome the actions that are being taken by the Government on these important issues, I cannot understand why the recent budgetary measures on mortgage interest relief have not been passed on.

Last week I heard from a young couple in Blessington who are in severe financial difficulty. The man was employed in the construction industry and was earning great money during the boom. The woman is a homemaker who looked after their three young children. They bought a very comfortable home a few years ago to provide for their growing family, when they could afford to pay for it. They paid more than €500,000 for this house, but in today's market it is not worth even half that amount. He has lost his job and they are struggling to keep up with mortgage repayments. They worry for their future and the future of their children. They told me that anything that would make their lives a little easier would be very welcome, and this included the mortgage interest relief.

I have a number of questions for the Minister. Why has the situation arisen whereby the computer systems of the Revenue Commissioners are not in co-ordination with those of the banks? How is it that the more than 270,000 people who are eligible for this relief are being forced to wait? People are trying to balance their personal budgets on a daily, weekly and monthly basis and they need to have more certainty on issues such as this. Can the Minister confirm when this problem will be resolved? I understand from local media reports that the necessary alterations might not be made until April. Why would there be such an extensive delay? How much will it cost the State to bring the computer systems into line with each other? Are any other payments affected by this lack of communication?

Can the Minister confirm which financial institutions have passed on the interim rate of 25%? Can he say why most customers who have been switched to the interim rate have not been informed of the change by their respective banks?

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael Noonan)

Mortgage interest relief is available in respect of qualifying interest on a qualifying loan in respect of a qualifying residence. A qualifying loan is a loan used for the purchase, repair, development or improvement of an individual's principal private residence. The relief is provided at source through financial institutions. This means that the mortgage holders get the benefit of the relief directly from their mortgage providers in the form of reduced monthly repayments which take account of the tax relief.

The cost of mortgage interest relief is a significant burden on the Exchequer. At its peak in 2008 mortgage interest relief cost the Exchequer €705 million. It is estimated that the cost of mortgage interest relief was €457 million in 2011.

It is acknowledged that the early years of a mortgage are the most difficult for mortgage holders. Therefore, since 1993, mortgage interest relief has been focused towards first-time buyers, granting this cohort a higher rate of relief, as it was considered that these mortgage holders were most in need of assistance. In the supplementary budget of 2009, mortgage interest relief was entirely focused on mortgage holders who were in the early years of their mortgages. Mortgage interest relief was ceased for mortgage holders who had already received mortgage interest relief for seven years or more.

In line with the commitment in the programme for Government, mortgage interest relief was increased in budget 2012 to 30% for first-time buyers who purchased their first homes between 2004 and 2008. This measure was intended to help mortgage holders who purchased at the peak of the housing market. The Government also reversed the previous Government's decision to reduce the rates and ceilings of mortgage interest relief for those purchasing in 2012. The previous rates are maintained at 25% for first-time buyers, reducing to 20% on a sliding scale, and 15% for non-first time buyers. Anyone currently qualifying for mortgage interest relief or who purchases in 2012 will receive the relief up until the end of 2017. These measures will cost in the region of €55 million per annum. Mortgage interest relief will not be available for new loans from 2013 and it is set to be abolished altogether from 2018. Further technical details will be set out in the Finance Bill to be published later this week.

When any time-limited measure is introduced, there is always pressure from individuals, falling outside the scope of the measure, for it to be extended to them, for example, individuals who purchased in 2003. However, it is necessary to choose a cut-off point as otherwise the measure will become untargeted and very costly. It is evident that house prices increased significantly during the period 2004 to 2008. As the Deputy will appreciate mortgage interest relief is most valuable to mortgage holders in the early years of the mortgage, when the interest makes up most of the repayment.

I am aware that some mortgage holders have pointed out that they are not eligible to benefit from the new measure, despite having purchased in the period, because they have rented out their homes. While these individuals are not eligible for mortgage interest relief, because it is not now their principal private residence, they would be entitled to a 75% mortgage interest tax relief against the rental income from this property.

Mortgage holders who find themselves in difficulty may qualify for mortgage interest supplement. This is a means-tested payment made by the Department of Social Protection to provide short-term support to help pay mortgage holders' interest repayments.

Finally, it should be noted that the Central Bank's code of conduct on mortgage arrears governs the relationship between lenders and borrowers who are in arrears and contains a number of important protections for borrowers. It has established a mortgage arrears resolution process for handling cases in arrears and dedicated arrears support units and appeals processes. The code of conduct also provides that a lender must not apply to the courts to commence legal action for the repossession of a borrower's private residence until every reasonable effort has been made to agree an alternative arrangement with the borrower.

Mortgage interest relief is available only in cases where mortgage interest is being paid. Therefore, I appreciate that the current relief is not going to help those in arrears. As I have mentioned, other solutions are available for this category of mortgage holders.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I thank the Minister for his reply, but he did not answer any of my questions. I referred to the recent media reports that people who were due to get their mortgage interest relief increased to 30% were not getting it. It has also been highlighted that the computer systems of the Revenue Commissioners and those of the various banks are not talking to each other. We had similar problems in the past but they were resolved.

These people cannot afford to wait month by month. They are now being told by the banks and the Revenue Commissioners that it could take two or three months for the problem to be sorted. People throughout the country are struggling for any little help we can give them. I appreciate that the Minister and this Government have done a great deal to help people who are struggling to pay their mortgages but why is there a delay since the Minister announced this in the budget? It is the beginning of February and we are being told these people will have to wait until April. Why is there a breakdown in communications between the Revenue Commissioners and the banks? What is the cost to the State of getting the two systems to work together?

People's opinion of the banks is at a very low ebb, and has been for some time. Why have the banks not implemented the mortgage interest relief?

Deputy Michael Noonan

The Topical Issues debate notified to the Department of Finance was entitled: "To raise the issue of mortgage holders unable to avail of mortgage interest relief." I replied to that. However, the Deputy raised questions about matters we did not anticipate. I will get the Deputy a full reply to the questions she raised today.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I appreciate that.

Deputy Michael Noonan

There was obviously a mismatch between what the Department interpreted the Deputy's intentions to be and what she actually asked in the debate. I will provide her with a full reply.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I thank the Minister.

Teaching Council

Deputy Joe McHugh

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon.

I have been contacted by numerous teachers who have been trying to get accreditation for a long period of time from the Teaching Council. In one instance, a teacher with 17 years experience has been waiting for more than two years, while another teacher with specific qualifications in applied mathematics has been waiting for more than a year. It has gone beyond the point of frustration for these teachers. They want to get the proper accreditation and get on with their jobs. I raise this issue because I do not understand why should it take this long to do it. Why should a teacher be told, over the telephone, by a person in the Teaching Council that he or she will be dealt with within the following 16 to 18 weeks?

We politicians live in the real world. If someone rings us on a Monday morning, he or she expects us to get back to him or her by that afternoon and to have the issue sorted by the Tuesday morning. That is the world in which we and many people in the private sector live. Many within the public service live in that world also. I am not disparaging or making generalisations about the public sector. However, I would like to know why an official can recite over the telephone that it will take 16 to 18 weeks to sort out a problem that could be dealt with much more quickly. It sends a message about the lack of efficiency, due process and initiative on the part of officials in such positions.

We need to look at these instances in the context of the overall reform to which the Minister for Education and Skills and the Minister of State are aspiring. There will be considerable change and reform in the education system. We should emulate countries such as Finland that are spending minimal amounts of Exchequer funding on administration but pumping money into the classroom and the coalface of teaching. They are also empowering schools and devolving power to the local level. We have inherited a centralised education system. While checks and balances are needed in any system, our model which concentrates control at the centre needs to be examined closely when we go through the reform process.

When the public sees what is happening to the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools and teachers' jobs being threatened, the issue of fairness comes up. Members of the public are not considering fairness in relation to what is happening in their own backyard but in other places where savings could be made. I am not saying we should abolish the Teaching Council. I am saying we must send a strong signal that efficiencies are being made in the Teaching Council. Making a telephone message to say it will take 16 to 18 weeks to sort out a very simple problem does not augur well for the efficiencies towards which we aspire to making.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I am taking this Topical Issue Debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

The Minister sees the Teaching Council as key to implementing the Department's strategic objectives on the quality of teaching and learning in schools. Much work has been done by the council to develop education, in particular, in maintaining and improving teaching standards. When the Act is fully commenced, the State will have a comprehensive regulatory framework in place for the teaching profession.

The Teaching Council was established on a statutory basis in March 2006 under the Teaching Council Act 2001. Its functions and objects are set out clearly in the Act and cover matters such as the promotion of teaching as a profession, the promotion of the professional development of teachers, the improvement of the quality of teaching in the State and the registration and regulation of teachers.

The Teaching Council Act includes provisions governing membership, funding, accountability and the council's relationship with the Department. The legislation provides for the appointment of a 37 member council, of which 22 members are either directly elected teachers or nominated by teacher trade unions. The term of each council is limited to a maximum of four years. The council has responsibility for operationalising the provisions of the Act and the development of the necessary organisational and collaborative strategies and structures for the effective regulation of the teaching profession. It is responsible for the conduct of its affairs and meeting any obligations arising in this regard.

As a public body, the Teaching Council complies with a range of Government policies and requirements applicable to public bodies generally, including policies on employee numbers and remuneration and corporate governance. Under the Act, the council is a self-funding body but is subject to independent audit and required to publish its accounts, together with its annual report, which are lodged in the Houses each year.

A number of other obligations fall on the Teaching Council which enhance its accountability. It is required to implement the Department's policies on teacher education, probation, qualifications, professional conduct and so on. The approval of the Department is required for the drawing up of regulations in areas such as the election of members, the charging of fees and the registration of teachers. The council is required to provide the Minister with information and advice on matters relating to its functions having regard to resource implications and other relevant matters. In certain circumstances, members of the council may be removed.

Aside from the formal provisions, there is ongoing contact and communication between my Department and the Teaching Council at official level. The Minister meets the council from time to time. He is satisfied that the accountability of the council is in order, both in terms of regulation and in practice.

The matters raised by the Deputy stray into the operational day-to-day functioning of the Teaching Council, particularly how it interacts with those who seek to avail of its services. I share his concerns regarding the instances he referenced. I will work closely with him in addressing these concerns if he wishes to raise them with me later.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I welcome the Minister of State's response and appreciate his offer to work with me in addressing my concerns. I look forward to working with him on the matter.

On a broader level, the single biggest sickness in the country in the past 20 years has been the increase in bureaucracy and red tape. It will be difficult to grasp this nettle. We need to change to a culture in which efficiency and providing a response for the public will be priorities. In the first 12 months of the Government Ministers have gone about their business in a very efficient and proactive way. However, we must now tackle the bureaucracy and red tape that are holding back people in business and preventing decisions being taken in a reasonable period of time. This challenge faces both Opposition and Government Deputies. I do not speak specifically about the Teaching Council; I am talking in general terms. The single biggest challenge for the Dáil is to tackle the sickness of bureaucracy and red tape. That responsibility rests on people on both the Opposition and Government sides of the House.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I concur wholeheartedly with the Deputy in the sentiments he expressed. Bureaucracy, properly administered, can be wonderful, but it can be a drag on job retention and creation. As the Deputy pointed out, we must be careful in the coming months and years to root out unnecessary bureaucracy. Internationally, there are many wonderful examples of how this has been done. Having worked closely with a number of public servants in the Department, I am adamant that there is a willingness to make this happen. Whether that willingness permeates all sections of the public service is questionable. A report published by the European Commission last May, which was carried out by Accenture and the department of economics at the University of Oxford, concluded that if our public service acted in the manner it should act, eliminating bureaucracy and encouraging job creation where it may happen, we could create up to 15 million new jobs across the EU by 2020. That is the challenge we are facing. We urgently need to engender an innovative and almost entrepreneurial culture in the management of the public service. The situation in which we find ourselves now, where those people are working with severely reduced resources, may actually cause that to happen, because it certainly has not happened in the past.

If the many silos in our public services were run as efficiently and creatively as some entities in the private sector, that cultural shift which needs to occur would actually occur. We need to have our public services essentially serving the public. It sounds very trite, but that is how simple it is. That is not happening at the moment, but it most certainly needs to happen in the future.

Mental Health Services

Deputy Patrick Nulty

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the Minister of State's strong personal commitments on the issues covered in her own brief.

I would like to talk today about the cuts to community-based counselling services. They provide family therapy, counselling to youth work and marriage guidance and support to families in crisis. There are about 29 of these community-based projects throughout the country. In 2009 they received about €8 million in funding. What is unique about these services is that they developed organically within our communities. The drive to set up these counselling services came from people living in their communities such as community development workers, people from religious orders and people involved in all sorts of community activity. They recognised that there was a huge gap in family support and that there was a need for access to quality counselling for families, many of which are on a low income and which simply could not afford to access this type of support in the private sector. These facilities were established within communities. They have boards of directors that are set up within the communities as well. They provide a vital service to those communities.

In recent months, these community-based services have received notice from the Family Support Agency that they will receive a funding cut of 12% this year, 12% next year and 12% the year after. This is on top of a 10% cut they received last year when Fianna Fáil was in power, and this makes up a 46% cut over four years. These services simply cannot sustain such cuts. If the cuts go ahead, many of them will close.

The Genesis counselling service in my own constituency of Dublin West was established in 1993, based on a needs assessment of the community. It is located in the Corduff, Mulhuddart and wider Dublin 15 area. Its establishment was a recognition that there was a huge gap in supports for working class communities to ensure that people get access to counselling services. The service provides counselling for parenting and for relationships in difficulty. It receives referrals from organisations like Women's Aid, the Garda Síochána, child protection agencies and legal aid. It plays an incredibly important role in providing support to people.

I met the board of directors of Genesis counselling service a few weeks ago. The people on the board are not prone to histrionics or grandstanding. They are rooted in working class communities throughout this country and they are saying that if the cuts go ahead, these services may close and this will have a devastating impact on the communities that we serve and seek to represent in the Dáil. We need to review the cuts urgently.

If families do not get access to support and assistance for young people experiencing difficulties, what will be the outcome? More young people will become involved in criminal activity. There will be more family breakdown, more drug use and alcohol abuse. It will lead to a range of social problems. It will also cost the Exchequer far more than the cost of the provision of services in the community. Crude cuts of this nature do not equal savings for the taxpayer. They do nothing to address the economic crisis in which we find ourselves. They do nothing to address the 14% unemployment rate.

I implore those making these decisions not simply to look at a balance sheet. I appreciate the Minister for Finance may have other commitments, but it is a pity he was not able to stay to listen to this debate. The decisions that have been made on spending cuts are impacting locally. They are greatly affecting community services, youth projects, and community development programmes. That will undermine the progress that has been made in our communities. I cannot see how that is in anyone's interest.

I know the Minister of State has a very strong track record on these issues over many years. I ask her, through her office, to bring any support she can to have these cuts reviewed.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I thank Deputy Nulty for raising this issue. The mental health of the population plays a vital role in the vibrancy and economic life of the country. Investing in the promotion of positive mental health and in early intervention is an investment not only in the individual's quality of life, but also in that of his or her family and even the community in general.

Expenditure reductions in 2012 will challenge all areas of the health system to provide continuity of services that are both appropriate and safe for patients. Like other care areas, efficiency savings and other savings will be required from the mental health service nationally, which will necessarily involve some rationalisation and reorganisation of services at local and regional level. We have shifted the emphasis in mental health service delivery in recent years from the old model of institutional care to community-based multidisciplinary services which necessarily engage with service users at local level and often in their own homes. As a result, in many instances the family will also benefit through supports appropriate to the individual's needs. Such services assist families in coping with what is often a very difficult and stressful environment.

Cuts to services have not been targeted at this particular area. We have in fact prioritised mental health services for children and adolescents and have sought to expand inpatient provision as well as extending the reach of the service in this area to the community level, including home based treatment where possible. An example of the improvement in the child and adolescent area is the planned relocation of the Warrenstown inpatient service to recently vacated and redecorated facilities at St. Loman's Hospital in Palmerstown - I know the Deputy is familiar with this - which will involve more efficient use of staff resources available and the delivery of a higher level standard of service overall, including additional inpatient beds. Further down the road, these services will transfer to the new facilities in Cherry Orchard.

Despite all the cuts that have had to be applied across the board in health, I am glad to say that it was possible in the 2012 budget to announce a special new allocation of €35 million for mental health services in line with our programme for Government commitments. This funding will be used primarily to strengthen community mental health teams in both adult and children's mental health services by ensuring, at a minimum, that at least one of each mental health professional discipline is on every team. It is intended that the additional resources will be rolled out in conjunction with a scheme of appropriate clinical care programmes. Approximately 400 additional staff will be recruited to support these initiatives. In addition, further inpatient child and adolescent beds will open this year, something that for a long time has been a critical gap in the spectrum of mental health services.

Some of the new funding will also be used to advance activities in the area of suicide prevention and response to self harm presentations, and to improve access to psychological and counselling services in primary care, specifically for people with mental health problems. Some provision will also be made to facilitate the relocation of mental health service users from institutional care to more independent living arrangements in their communities in line with the health document, A Vision for Change .

It is imperative that the Government gets the best value for money for our available resources in these most difficult of economic times. The duplication of mental health services needs to be avoided to provide a more streamlined service. We need to co-ordinate our efforts and work together to develop our mental health services in line with the recommendations in A Vision for Change. In essence, we need to provide more with less and this has already been achieved in mental health service provision in many areas.

I am fully committed to working closely with the HSE and voluntary agencies to introduce programmes and services which will deal more effectively and appropriately with the issue of mental health.

Deputy Patrick Nulty

I agree that there is a need for value for money on every item of public expenditure and that the people we represent expect this. This is the annual report of the Genesis psychotherapy and family therapy service which gives value for money. If there is a 12% cut in services such as this this year and in the two following years, value for money will not be achieved. It will result in a higher level of family breakdown in our most vulnerable communities. As an example, the Genesis service has a waiting list of 100. It costs money to provide mortgage interest supplement, rent supplement and send people to prison. I do not believe reductions in expenditure of this nature help us to bridge the gap between income and expenditure. It is a case of moving the furniture around the house when we should investing in the provision of early support such as that provided by the Genesis service. I welcome the Minister of State's personal commitment and invite her to visit the service to see the work being done. I appreciate she is not in a position to give a commitment today, but I ask her to ask her departmental officials about the cut to this service. The people who raised the issue with me are dealing with mental health issues on the ground in working-class communities and deeply concerned about the closure of such facilities.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I have no doubt that the service to which the Deputy refers is an excellent one and doing an exceptional job. The difficulty from our perspective is that we need to provide an exceptional service in all areas of the country. We hope to do this by means of the community mental health teams which, in combination with primary care teams, will give us a bigger bang for our buck. While I acknowledge that groups such as Genesis provide an excellent service in particular areas, we must ensure a service is delivered to everyone. That is our objective. It will be a nationwide service. I am confident that the expertise of the Genesis service will be well utilised because additional personnel will be needed to staff the community mental health teams. We need to be cautious about saying young people with mental health or personal difficulties automatically end up in prison because that is not necessarily the case. I have no doubt that Genesis is providing an invaluable service.

Hospital Services

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are seeing a repeat of a trend in the health service since the Government and, in particular, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, took office. There has been almost a 50% increase in the cost of health insurance for families. At the start of the year the Minister announced a 40% increase in the health insurance levy charged to health insurance providers. The levy was to ensure the companies would not increase their prices, but VHI increased the cost of cover for older people by up to 12.5%.

The Minister said he would not be closing any hospitals. This was the same promise given during the general election campaign with regard to Roscommon County Hospital and other hospitals, yet when the HSE service plan was published just a few weeks ago, up to 900 community hospital beds were to be closed across the country.

The Minister stated the retirement of staff under the early retirement scheme would not result in a diminution of services or have an adverse impact on patient treatment times. This week, however, he has admitted that elective treatments may have to be postponed or delayed, for which he makes no apology, despite having tried to create a mirage in the past few weeks by saying there would not be an impact on services.

The one area in which treatment is not elective is maternity services. Babies will continue to be born; the Minister cannot apply the brake and tell people to hold off in terms of the number of babies born in the State. However, as of last week, staff were leaving maternity units across the country and the Government had no plan as to how the situation would be dealt with. The Taoiseach has announced that transition teams will be in place, but how will the Government ensure services for newborn babies and their mothers will be in place?

I refer to comments made by some of the professional staff working in maternity services. The director of the HSE obstetrics and gynaecology programme, Professor Michael Turner, said staff reductions and cuts to HSE maternity service programmes could result in an increase in maternal and infant mortality rates. His concern is that unless we prioritise maternity services, we will see an increase in the number of maternal deaths if resources are cut too severely. That is the price that will be paid.

I refer to staff reductions in the Mid-Western Regional Maternity Hospital which will occur next month. Consultant obstetrician Gerry Burke has stated a huge exodus of the most experienced midwives from the hospital is taking place. He has also said that if the HSE has a comprehensive plan, it is not sharing it with staff. The Rotunda Hospital is losing 11 midwives, while eight are due to leave Holles Street Hospital. One in four midwives is leaving the maternity hospital in Limerick. How can the service be maintained? Will the Minister of State outline the plans in place and how this most non-elective of services will be maintained to ensure newborn babies and their mothers are given the service they require and expect? I hope she can give the House some information on the transition teams and how maternity services will be protected.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter to which I am replying on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly.

The question put to the Minister by the Deputy was: "To ask the Minister for Health if he will publish the plan for dealing with midwifery services, particularly in Holles Street, which may be affected by retirements at the end of the month". There is no indication in this question of the additional issues raised by the Deputy. I ask him, therefore, to excuse me if I do not respond to them. Any additional information required will be provided for the Deputy.

The Minister is aware of the impact the early retirement package will have on the provision of maternity services and all services nationally. He has requested the HSE to prioritise the safety of patients and the avoidance of risk in the delivery of services for them. Planning for the delivery of health services is undertaken within the context of the annual national service planning process which ensures all factors, including budgets and staffing levels and any other emerging issues, including the impact of retirements, are factored in in the plan for the services to be delivered within the coming year. In parallel with this process, each of the HSE's four regions is required to develop a more detailed regional service plan. Managing the specific risks associated with the forthcoming retirements has been undertaken within this planning context and will form part of the soon to be published regional service plans.

It is anticipated that 9.16 whole-time equivalent midwives and nurses will retire from Holles Street Hospital.

The hospital is planning to take a number of steps to minimise the impact of these retirements and to ensure the ongoing delivery of safe services for mothers and babies. Some of the posts affected are in the management area and their duties will be reallocated among other staff. The hospital is examining options around re-organisation of wards and rosters to minimise the impact on services to patients. Contingency plans and measures are in place at service level and will continue to be refined in advance of the end of February deadline and will focus on staff redeployment, streamlining and cross-cover arrangements. In addition, revised staff rosters and skill mix options are also being utilised.

The accelerated implementation of the national clinical programmes are key strategic supports to the risk management process which is in place around these retirements. The related work of the special delivery unit on emergency departments, surgical and outpatient waiting times and reorganisation of specialist medical services and bed utilisation will also be critical in supporting the achievement of overall resource management in the coming year. The national service plan recognises that certain positions may need to be filled, subject to the overall pay and number targets for 2012 being met. Agency staff may be used where there is a critical requirement. However, any reliance on agency staff will be in the context of the HSE's objective to reduce overall agency costs by 50% in 2012. The Minister is determined to ensure the measures being taken now will lead to a smooth transition in services for patients following the retirement of staff at the end of February. I again thank the Deputy for raising the matter.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Unfortunately, the response of the Minister of State does not give me any heart or additional assurance-----

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

In fairness, the Deputy did not ask.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I know. I refer to how the Minister for Health and the HSE has prepared for the retirements. The Minister of State referred to how the HSE's regional service plans will deal with the situation, yet the HSE's national service plan was only published in mid-January, two weeks into the year. As of last week it became clear what the retirement levels would be at the end of next month, but we have now to wait on the HSE's regional service plans to deal with that. What advance planning has taken place? What effort has been made to ensure cover for those critical services that cannot be replaced overnight, such as midwifery? I got no reassurance in that regard from the response I received.

It is one mirage after another with the Minister. He said there would be no cuts to the number of beds, no increase in health insurance premia and no reduction in services as a result of retirements. That is the mantra we get from the Minister, yet when it comes to the crunch that is not the case. When it comes to the crunch in terms of retirements, the Minister has said we will have to cut back on elective procedures and we will probably have longer waiting lists. The need for midwifery services does not fall into the elective category. One cannot simply click one's fingers and get new midwives in overnight or the next week simply because a number of them have retired.

I see no evidence to date, nor in the response today, that the HSE or the Minister is on top of the issue or has any grasp of how we will deal with it. Consultants have said that if there is a plan, they have not seen it. That is not good enough. There has been a failure in terms of advance planning. Today's response does not in any way address the issue. I hope that in the coming days remedial action is taken to ensure the health of new babies and mothers is not put at risk in any way by this failure by the Minister and the HSE.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

The regional service plans are completed. Every region must make its submission to the national service plan and, therefore, most of the work has been done. Despite the fact that the bulk of what happens in midwifery is the delivery of babies, not all of it relates to the delivery of babies. The remit is a little wider than that. I will not go into detail but, nevertheless, more is involved than that.

It is difficult to put a plan in place when one inherits a country that has been wrecked. The scale of what the Government has to deal with is enormous. As Deputy McConalogue's colleague, Deputy Calleary, is aware, I do not go in for the rhetoric of blame. We are busy enough trying to sort out the problem. The depth of the recession that this country is in dictates that we must make hard choices in the future. We must manage how we go forward. I agree entirely with Deputy McConalogue that the safety of mothers and babies is paramount. We must examine where we can plug those gaps. That is being considered as we speak. No one should underestimate the scale of the trouble this country is in.