Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 2 Mar 2012

Vol. 757 No. 4

Scrap and Precious Metal Dealers Bill 2011: Second Stage

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Cheann Comhairle, leat féin, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, agus leis na hoifigigh in Oifig na mBillí.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the Ceann Comhairle's office and staff, the staff in the Bills Office, my staff and Yvonne Murphy for their help and co-operation in putting together this very important Bill. I have received much support for it across a diverse range of groups. I thank all those involved for their help and engagement with me since last autumn. I also thank fellow Deputies from the Technical Group, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin who are offering support.

The purpose of the Bill is to implement stricter controls relating the purchasing, selling, trading, consignment selling and otherwise transferring for value more than three times per year second-hand property that is precious or scrap metal. There is not much need for a lot of background in regard to this matter because I am sure every Deputy, citizen and household is aware of why legislation is required. Unfortunately, the theft of precious metals, such as gold, silver and platinum, and metals, such as copper, lead and bronze, has become commonplace due to the huge increase in the value of these properties.

We have all heard stories, including some very sad and traumatic ones. In my county of Tipperary, thieves were prepared to go into the sacristy, a sacred place, in Holycross Abbey and wrestle from a concrete structure, a safe which held the relics of the true cross. It caused huge trauma to the parish community and to the parish priest, Fr. Tom Breen. That the thieves stooped so low, were so blatant and so uncaring set a new low. Thankfully, with the help of the gardaí in Thurles and beyond, they were relocated and placed back in a safer situation in Holycross Abbey. I commend the gardaí in this regard. A wonderful parish community celebration day was held there last Sunday week to celebrate that. Many people prayed to St. Anthony or whoever and the relics of the true cross were returned to their rightful place. However, that is only one example.

In Castletown, County Laois, a huge ornate memorial of sentimental value which was erected to commemorate the sad loss of 30 young people from that parish community was stolen. Again, thieves moved in in the dead of night, sawed it down, took it away and probably melted it down. Hurt and angst were caused. There are no boundaries over which the cowboys and rogues who are operating here and plundering our national treasures and wrecking havoc on families will not cross.

Hume Street hospital in Dublin is not too far from here. Teams arrived with trucks, high visibility jackets, hard hats and brass necks in broad daylight. People thought they were workers doing a repair job but they stripped the roof from that building over a number of weeks. The save Hume Street hospital campaign has been in touched with me. The thieves destroyed that property, which is very valuable. Once one damages the roof of a structure and subjects a building to the elements, it will decay very quickly.

The number of homes pillaged and plundered and families devastated has been a problem for many years. It is difficult enough at this point for people to make ends meet, to survive and to provide for their families. We all accept one's home is one's castle and I thank the previous Minister and the current one for bringing in legislation in order that we can protect our homes when we are in them. However, when one is out at work, at school or gone to a church service, whether Mass or otherwise, one's home may be targeted. It has never happened my home, thank God, but I have been in hundreds of homes over the years which have been targeted.

I am involved in community alert, a wonderful organisation, sponsored by Muintir na Tíre, which, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána, does tremendous work and I commend the volunteers and organisers. I have been in many homes, the sanctity of which has been intruded upon. People's homes feel unclean from the day of the break-in onwards. Thieves go into people's sitting rooms, bedrooms, etc., and wreck havoc. In some cases, they do not even take silver but just take gold rings, bracelets and so on but the damage they do when breaking in and when in the house is unbelievable. They do some nasty stuff when they break in.

We must introduce regulation. We have witnessed an increase in scrap and precious metal sales, including cash for gold and cash for scrap type businesses. While there are many legitimate businesses in this industry, unfortunately, like everything else, the cowboys, who want to make a quick buck, ruin it for everybody else. We must consider legislation which is long overdue. I raised this issue with the previous Minister on several occasions in the last Dáil and I understand he set up a review group. I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister last September and the reply I received was that the work of the review group was almost completed. Where is it? This is a challenge which must be met.

I am often critical of this new Government but I compliment it on introducing Friday sittings in order that opposition Members can introduce legislation. I appeal to the many Fine Gael and Labour Party backbenchers and others to be more receptive to these Bills. The last two Bills introduced by the Technical Group were voted down, which is a pity. A Bill was introduced by Deputy Catherine Murphy and another by Deputy Stephen Donnelly on the family home and probably had a financial element but this Bill does not. It provides for the protection of our citizens. There is nothing political in it nor does it have any cost implications for the Government.

The Garda needs this legislation because, in many instances, it is powerless to follow up on this type of crime. As we know, items can be stolen at night and moved on immediately. Rings or precious jewellery of sentimental value, perhaps belonging to one's deceased parents or grandparents, can be literally posted on. Families like to treasure such items and normally place them in a prominent place in the home, which can be easily accessed. Such items can be put in an envelope, dropped in the post box and one can get cash back in an envelope. That is crazy in any modern democracy.

I do not want more regulation, which will stifle business. I am always talking about how there is too much regulation and bureaucracy in business but this is a case where there is no regulation.

Deputy Derek Keating

Deputy Mattie McGrath will put merchants out of business.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

In this situation, the cowboys have put them out of business. If Deputy Keating had read the Bill, he would understand that I fully acknowledge the honest business people trying to make a living, giving employment and paying rates, taxes and PRSI. They are being undermined at an alarming rate by cowboy activity. Like many other businesses, they are struggling and need to be supported and protected. Many of them have contacted me about this Bill and are delighted-----

Deputy Derek Keating

Many of them contacted me and are not in favour of it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Deputy Keating will have his chance later. This does not augur well for the passage of legislation. Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to have a say.

Deputy Dara Calleary

God forbid that the Government would accept a Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I have always been against legislation that places unnecessary burdens on business but it appears this industry is entirely unregulated and the private property of citizens is suffering as a consequence. Every Member hears stories of this on a weekly basis in clinics. Why should we introduce legislation? We raised the matter with various Ministers over the years and nothing happened. We must introduce legislation to protect our valuable goods and property. That includes our listed buildings, our rich and proud built heritage of huge architectural value. We are very proud of it but the thieves will stop at nothing. Some buildings have 24-hour security but any that do not are seen as ripe for plundering.

These are organised gangs that I call roving traders. Some people try to label them Travellers but that is totally unfair to Travellers. These are marauding gangs. I do not know why the Minister is ag gáire. Cén fáth? What is so funny, Minister? I am being honest.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Deputy Mattie McGrath is funny.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is fine, I have no problem being funny. Roving gangs of marauding thugs come into my county every year from all over the country. They masquerade as Travellers but they are not. They are shoddy business people, with no PRSI numbers, VAT numbers, registration or C2 forms, only cash business. They are plundering and frightening people. They have bonfires as if they had won the all-Ireland, burning rubber and coating off cables.

Limerick Junction is one of the major rail junctions in the country and a major focal point for which we have big plans. A huge number of trains criss-cross this busy junction everyday. Twice in recent times, they have gone in and stolen important cabling that supplies the signal. Thankfully, there is a modern, state-of-the-art alert mechanism in Dublin that goes off and stops the trains. As far as these people are concerned, the system is not there and there could be a head-on collision between trains. That tells us how reckless these people are even though the modern insulation sends out a red alert that all trains approaching should stop. Instead of ten minutes to get trains through the junction, it takes an hour and a half, not to mention the €500,000 it costs Iarnród Éireann to replace the cables. They take it away and have bonfires. We can see the fires but we cannot have anyone else burning something in the backyard, and rightly so. These people act with impunity and it is totally wrong. They must be dealt with and we need action.

I have pleading letters from the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA, looking for legislation. The organisation contacted successive Governments. Those involved in the campaign to save Hume Street hospital contacted me and the Irish Georgian Society contacted Members and met me. Muintir na Tíre, which operates the community alert programme, has raised this issue. Community alert units have weekly meetings featuring stories about pillage and plunder of people's houses, yards and farms. Nothing is safe from these marauding villains.

The Bill sets out the obligation to be fulfilled by precious metal and scrap metal dealers for obtaining and retaining proof of identity from the sources providing goods to them in order to provide a mechanism for verification that the products offered for sale derive from a legitimate source. It is basic and also provides that all metal dealers must register with the Garda Síochána so that the Garda Síochána can have a record of every dealer in the country. That is included in every item of legislation and it is vital for the Garda Síochána. Retaining records and communicating with the Garda Síochána is similar to what any business person is subject to, with NERA, VAT inspectors and tax inspectors. These are the laws of the State and we must abide by them. Even though they are cumbersome, we must deal with them, yet these people operate with impunity. They are not all Irish people - they are also from foreign shores. The laws have been tightened in other countries and the problem is being exported. Our valuable heritage and quality craftsmanship took skilled labourers and craftsmen hours, weeks and years to create. They were dedicated to the special arts and trades they loved and protected.

I refer to the old tinkers who came to my area and made coal shuttles and billy cans. They exchanged them with the good families in our communities - urban and rural - willing to give aid such as a few pounds or milk, sugar and butter. I have happy memories of walking to school past their camps and seeing tinsmiths making goods. That trade has been diminished because they have given a bad name to those proud generations, who we should recognise, incorporate and remember. They should be recognised in museums.

The information sought is commonsense, including name, address, PPS number, proof of identification, a complete description of the good sold and the price paid. Although I have not included it in the legislation, the money should be paid by cheque or draft. The nature of the transaction and a signed declaration that the property is not stolen should also be included.

A 30-day waiting period is vital. If properties are robbed today, it is no good if the items are melted down tomorrow. After reporting it to the Garda Síochána, one cannot identify much if the property is in a furnace or has been melted and sold on. The Bill also sets out the penalties that will apply to offences, with the first offence attracting a fine of €1,000 or imprisonment not exceeding 90 days and a second and subsequent offence attracting a fine not exceeding €10,000 and nine months imprisonment. We must have tangible factors to make it scary for these people so they do not act with impunity, plunder, steel and cause havoc.

We should examine the possibility of revoking waste facility permits where dealers are found to be in breach of legislation. I am delighted with the attendance in the Chamber and I appeal to Deputies to consider this carefully.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Labour.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Go raibh maith agat. I do not say that I have all the answers. There can be amendments or discussion. It is a bad day when one does not learn something and I am open to learning today. I commend this Bill to the House.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank Deputy McGrath for publishing the Bill. It never ceases to amaze me the range of subjects falling under the remit of the Department of Justice and Equality. I never envisaged that scrap metal would be an issue for the Department of Justice and Equality but c’est la vie. I apologise to the Minister in advance because I will not be able to wait for his response.

There is an issue in this area. Drilling into the crime statistics of the past year, we would see a trend of robberies and criminal activity on monuments, motorways, sculptures, churches and personal property. Either personally or through dealing with friends or constituents, all Members have experience of items of small jewellery of major sentimental value that, when stolen, cannot be traced or found.

On the legitimate side of the argument, there is a growing trade in scrap sales over the past 18 months. Often, these are organised with good intent for community organisations or clubs or to assist people clearing a property or farm property. The cash for gold industry has mushroomed as a response to the difficulties in which people find themselves. The illegitimate side of the argument includes non-registered traders calling to people's properties and farms, making offers, targeting older people living on their own and acting in a threatening or aggressive manner in the pursuit of these products. The difficulty arises because the area is unregulated with the result there is a loss of ownership. Where one buys something legitimately, we need to ensure the legitimacy around that transaction is carried through to the end of the sale, and what Deputy Mattie McGrath proposes will allow us to do that.

Deputy Keating made a few interjections about his worries for legitimate business, and he is correct. The last thing we need is to put more pressure on legitimate businesses but there is a problem here. If this Bill is accepted, we can work through it onCommittee Stage to ensure that the legitimate trader gets protection from it. Where a legitimate trader genuinely buys a product from somebody not knowing that it may be of dubious background or may have been acquired illegally, he or she deserves protection. However, where he or she knows it is of dubious background or where knows it was acquired illegally, as some of them do, then he or she should pay the price. We should ensure that all along the chain of transactions in this area there are records kept and there are sanctions for those who would seek to sully the name of the legitimate operators.

Surely there can be nothing wrong with what Deputy Mattie McGrath has proposed in terms of obliging dealers to retain proof of identity from previous sources in a day of invoicing being tracked and registered, for both VAT and Revenue purposes, not to mention for the restrictions on this Bill.

Nobody can have any major problem with a 30-day rating period for goods through consignment either. Perhaps that is an area through which we can work, defining "consignment" and what it involves. It also provides protection and time for persons to research what they are getting involved in.

I acknowledge, as Deputy Mattie McGrath has done, the work of Muintir na Tíre in this area. Muintir na Tíre is a superb organisation working through the community alert scheme. Its members are completely exposed to the pressure that many in rural communities are coming under because of the activities of some in this trade. It has written to all of us in support of the aspirations of the Bill and we should listen to it because it has a presence the ground, through the community alert programme, which we do not praise enough and to which we do not give enough support in this House. They see the pressure people are under.

When one looks at the high profile cases to which Deputy Mattie McGrath referred, there are now no bounds to how far people will go when they will go into Holy Cross Abbey and do what they did, take out a safe and take out the metals within that safe. Then there is the other extreme of the person, I think, called "Ireland's dumbest criminal", who last week locked his compatriots into the safe. All for scrap metal.

Deputy Alan Shatter

That is being turned into a movie.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Indeed. I am not saying the two guys could be done for scrap metal but it shows the breadth of stuff with which we are dealing. There is a market for all of those goods and at present that market is unregulated. There is nothing to say that if that robbery had succeeded, and that man had not locked them in, they would have got away with produce that would have been sold into this market about which we speak.

The crosses, the monuments and the artifacts taken from Holy Cross were destined for an international market, probably for collectors who have no appreciation or regard for the belief and commitment of the people of this country and who are interested only in profit, and as of now, that is easily done because there is no way of tracking of this material or enforcing the need for dealers to be aware of this material.

As I stated, all of us will be aware of cases, be it Eircom or building sites, where copper has been stolen off site. It is a regular phenomenon and we must ask ourselves where it is going. This Bill, if accepted by the Government, will seek to regulate that as well.

In fairness, Deputy Mattie McGrath over many years he has been a proponent of less regulation and less legislation that gets in the way of doing business. He did not set out to heighten the regulation burden on business but if the Government were to accept this Bill, then we can work through all of those issues in committee.

There is a problem here and because it is happening randomly across the country, there is not an awareness of how serious it is becoming. There is a problem because those who legitimately want to raise funds for their communities through organising scrap metal sales are being exposed to the illegal market as well, unbeknownst to themselves, because there are no checks and balances in place to ensure that the material they seek to sell legitimately does not find its way to those with ulterior motives. We need to give them support and back-up. We also need to give the legitimate operators in this trade support and backup and extra powers to ensure that their reputations are maintained, nationally and internationally.

I note that the Bill gives further powers to the Garda and requires registration with the Garda Síochána. These are areas we need to work through with the Garda in terms of registration to ascertain whether we are placing an undue burden on it. There might be a requirement to register with the local authorities, which are probably better resourced to manage such a register and its activities. Deputy Mattie McGrath touched on that towards the end of his speech in terms of the role of waste facilities and waste providers in this as well.

Given the importance of the topic, the acceptance by everybody - I note there are many rural Deputies in the Chamber - that it is a growing issue here and that we should not hide away from it, I would hope that this gives us a framework where we can legislate on the issue to give the Garda and the local authorities the power to work on this. In the interests of us all recognising the problem, the Government should accept the Bill and work it through whatever changes need to be made on Committee Stage and Report Stage. At least we will seem to be ahead of a problem in the Oireachtas rather than reacting to one.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I also thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for submitting this Bill. It is an important piece of legislation and I hope that the Government is open to accepting it and allowing it to proceed to Committee Stage. If it has some concerns around the contents of the Bill, I am sure these can be addressed on Committee Stage.

My party will support the Bill, if it goes to a vote. We believe it is a good attempt to deal with a growing problem. As Deputy Calleary stated, over the past 18 months or two years there has been an increasing trade in scrap and precious metal. We are hearing stories which range from the theft of artifacts and modern art on the side of the road, right down to burglary of jewellery, which is of sentimental value, in housing estates. It is an issue across a broad spectrum of society, in both rural and urban areas, and it needs to be dealt with.

There is certainly a need to regulate and provide stricter controles in the area. I take on board what the Fine Gael Deputy stated earlier, that we need to include provisions that protect those above board engaged in this activity who are trying to make a living. There is no reason we should be trying to put extra controls in place which would harm their business. If anything, by regulating the sector and by introducing stricter controls, we would enhance their business because it would get rid of many from a dubious background engaged in this activity.

The cash-for-gold sector is a problem. I note the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has a group looking at it and its report is due. I do not know whether the report is complete and merely not published, or whether it is still under consideration. It is a matter which the Minister stated in the past he was determined to deal with. If that is the case and the Minister has proposals to deal with it, he will certainly get support from this side of the House.

It is something that the local JPCs have had on their agenda for a number of months. In my area, in the lead up to Christmas there was a concern. There was a number of outlets opening up within supermarkets, where, in a little corner, one person would be behind a table with a little weighing scales. There was no regulation on it and anyone could go in. There even were cases where persons as young as 14 and 15 years were going in selling jewellery, with no questions asked by those behind the counter, who just took it and gave them money for it.

Much of that jewellery was stolen from homes. A devastated woman who came to my constituency office had been the victim of a burglary in which nothing was stolen but her jewellery. Its monetary value was very low but it had considerable sentimental value because it had been in the family for years and was passed down from the woman's mother and grandmother. It was heartbreaking to listen to her. I would imagine the jewellery was sold within hours of its being stolen. This is what we need to regulate.

The proposals in the Bill are very measured. This there is no reason somebody entering a cash-for-gold shop should not be able to produce photographic identification. The Bill refers to a utility bill to demonstrate proof of address. A description of the jewellery being sold should be provided, including references to distinguishing marks, dates and engravings. All these details should be logged and kept for 30 days before the jewellery is melted down or sold on by the outlet. If this were done, the Garda would have an opportunity to visit the local outlets to study the records. The provisions of the Bill are very measured and should be supported.

Deputy McGrath, in referring to the records that are to be kept, refers to the signature of the seller, the time and date of the sale, the signature of the employee conducting the transaction on behalf of the shop, the seller's proof of identity, such as a driving license or passport, proof of address, the price paid and distinguishing marks. These are all reasonable criteria. No legitimate operator would be opposed to this type of regulation because it would establish protections for himself or herself also.

We need to deal with this issue, which has also arisen in the North. It has arisen in my discussions with councillors throughout the State. It is a very widespread problem and regulation is required. Before Christmas, cash-for-gold shops were mushrooming out of the ground, and some have closed since. There is no way of even knowing who was operating the businesses. They do not have to register with anyone. They ought to register with the Revenue Commissioners, including for VAT. Not only are the victims of burglaries losing out, the State is losing out on potential revenue.

In times of recession, the outfits in question certainly take advantage of the economic circumstances. Before Christmas, the gardaí in my area visited all the cash-for-gold outlets. it is hard to do this on an ongoing basis. With the cutbacks in Garda resources, it is just not feasible for the force to visit these outlets weekly and do background checks on some of the transactions that have taken place.

I urge the Minister to accept the Bill on Second Stage. If he has concerns about it, let us deal with them on Committee Stage. What is the position on the report the Department is producing on the cash-for-gold trade? If the Minister has proposals, I asked that they be shared with the House today. If he is to oppose this Bill - I hope he does not - he should at least tell us the proposals that the Government will make to have regulation in this area.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank Deputy McGrath for publishing this Bill, availing of the Friday facility for Private Members' Bills and for providing the opportunity to discuss this matter. Much has been said thus far about cash for gold. Deputy Calleary referred to scrap metal, which subject the Bill also covers. The Bill goes substantially beyond dealing with the so-called cash-for-gold stores although its stated intention is to deal with the distinct areas of cash-for-gold and scrap metal trading.

While the Bill does provide a useful opportunity to discuss the issues, it does not provide a useful basis on which legislation in this area could proceed. In particular, irrespective of the claims made for it, it would not provide the Garda with effective powers in this area. In practice, it would neither help the Garda nor deter those involved in nefarious trading.

I am, of course, aware that the marked expansion in trade by persons offering to buy gold, with cash, cheque or otherwise, and precious metal has given rise to concerns that the trade has had an impact on crime, particularly burglaries. Deputy McGrath's speech focused in particular on burglaries without giving any evidence to indicate that burglaries that have occurred are a consequence of the establishment, in any shape or form, of cash-for-gold stores.

The increase in cash-for-gold trade is clearly fuelled by the high prices that gold and other precious metals now command. It is an international phenomenon resulting from global economic circumstances and people's concerns about the values of various currencies. The scrap metal trade similarly has given rise to concerns that this trade is somewhat different as there is a level of regulation in this area under waste management legislation.

The informal purchase of gold, jewellery or scrap metal is not specifically regulated in criminal legislation; however, the circumstances under which such items are bought or sold may indicate the commission of certain offences - for example, handling stolen property or possession of stolen property under sections 17 and 18 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. Listening to Deputy McGrath, one would believe these criminal offences did not exist. The Garda Commissioner has reported that the provisions are adequate to deal with the criminal aspects of cash for gold transactions.

These matters have been kept under close scrutiny by the relevant authorities, including An Garda Síochána and my Department. A number of relevant reviews of the matters covered by the Bill are at an advanced stage and the conclusions arising will allow for the necessary comprehensive assessment of the matters and the development of any necessary measures. I will return to the Government initiatives in hand in a few moments when I have explained the difficulties I have with the Bill.

I have spent some time considering seriously the provisions of Deputy McGrath's Bill. Whereas I am sure that it presents an earnest attempt to deal with the issues he has discussed, the Government is opposing it for a broad range of reasons, primarily because its provisions would not be effective. There is a requirement to examine carefully the resource implications of any proposed roles envisaged for An Garda Síochána in any new regulatory matters and specifically the question of whether it is appropriate for An Garda Síochána to become a trade regulatory body.

There is also the point that the legislation Deputy McGrath is attempting to introduce could affect adversely jewellery and antique businesses throughout the country. Any measures that I may decide upon must not interfere unfairly with normal trade and legitimate businesses. There must be a targeted, proportionate and balanced response by the Government to ensure that opportunities for criminals to obtain cash for stolen metal goods are eliminated while not affecting legitimate trade because of the criminal actions of a few. The objective of any actions decided upon must be to ensure such businesses are not unknowingly open to abuse by criminal elements. The criminal law elements in this Bill would not give any additional meaningful power to the Garda. There are a number of critical matters that the Bill does not provide for and which could be regarded as fundamental. I will make references to some of these shortfalls very briefly.

No provision is made for power of entry, power to demand the name, address and identification of business owners, managers or employees or other persons associated with the premises. No provision is made for power to examine, copy or take away documents. No provision is made to direct that products found at the place may not be sold or moved or to secure for later inspection any place or part of any place in which a precious metal is found. No provision is made to search or cause to search any person present or to seize any machinery associated with the preparation, handling, storage, transport or sale of precious metal.

In addition, no provision is made for offences of obstruction, failing or refusing to comply with a request or requirement of a member of An Garda Síochána, failure or refusal to answer a question or to provide false or misleading information. No provision is made for the power of arrest and all the offences are summary and, therefore, neither arrestable nor detainable. The fact the Bill deals only with minor offences means it does not recognise the seriousness of what is at issue. No recognition is given by the Bill to existing provisions contained in the Pawnbrokers Act 1964 as amended.

The regulatory framework proposed is deeply flawed and would not work. The definitions under section 2 do not appear to be expansive enough and may not adequately provide for all types of metal. I have particular difficulties with section 5 which would require metal dealers to register with An Garda Síochána. As already stated, there is a requirement to carefully examine the resource implications of any proposed roles envisaged for An Garda Síochána in any new regulatory matters. It is not practical to tie up valuable Garda time and resources with registration issues more appropriate to another body.

The requirement to keep records for two years is inadequate, particularly where there may be a complex Garda investigation. A more appropriate period would be five years, which is the norm in other areas, but account would also need to be taken of whether there is an ongoing business relationship which could require a longer period of retention.

Section 3(1), which covers the recording of transactions for precious metals, does not provide for penalties for not applying the requirements. Provision should also be made for monitoring transactions as part of an ongoing business relationship. Overall the diligence measures require substantial development.

There are several existing structures that provide models that could be examined. One area I will further examine is the existing provisions for pawnbrokers contained in the 1964 Pawnbrokers Act as amended. This legislation provides for the regulation of the activities of pawnbrokers including record-keeping requirements relating to pledges of gold, silver and precious metals. The Deputy's Bill seems oblivious to the current provisions contained in that Act and their application.

In my Department a system of monitoring compliance has been developed for monitoring compliance of designated persons with their obligations under the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010. Under that Act, any person trading in goods who accepts payments in cash of at least €15,000, whether in one transaction or in a series of transactions that are, or appear to be, linked to each other, is considered to be a designated person.

This category includes businesses such as jewellers, dealers in precious stones, or any other business that trades in luxury goods. For ease of reference, these are referred to as high-value-goods dealers. The Act places several obligations on designated persons and businesses, including high-value-goods dealers, to guard against their businesses being used for money laundering or terrorist-financing purposes.

The principal obligations for designated persons can be broadly grouped under the three headings customer due diligence, suspicious transaction reporting and internal policies and procedures which include training and record-keeping. Customer due diligence requires designated persons at specified times and in particular circumstances to identify and verify the customer's identity, be alert to suspicious activity and monitor ongoing business relationship. Suspicious transaction reporting requires designated persons to report suspicions of money laundering or terrorist financing to An Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners. There are also provisions prohibiting tipping off a customer that a report has been made. The required internal policies and procedure include compliance policies, training, record-keeping of customer due diligence and transactions, risk assessment of the threat of money laundering or terrorist financing.

My Department is examining the criminal justice aspects of the cash-for-gold trade and this report will assist me in defining precisely the measures that are needed. The Garda Commissioner has indicated no identifiable increase in crime as a result of the increase of cash-for-gold trading.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is not true.

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is imperative those involved in these businesses are fully aware of their responsibilities in accepting gold items and that they discharge these responsibilities fully. In this regard, the Garda Commissioner has informed me that all cash-for-gold premises in the State have been visited by An Garda Síochána and the operators have been made aware of their responsibilities and obligations with regard to purchasing gold and jewellery. Garda contact information provided to operators will facilitate the reporting to An Garda Síochána of any suspicious activity. Consideration will be given in proposed legislation to provide an offence for failing to so report to An Garda Síochána in appropriate circumstances. Such a provision is not contained in the Deputy's Bill. Any new premises that may be identified will be visited by An Garda Síochána. In addition, the Revenue Commissioners are focusing on the cash-for-gold sector with a view to assessing income tax and business tax liabilities.

An Garda Síochána is targeting high-volume crimes including burglaries and theft-related crimes under the recently launched initiative, Supporting Safer Communities. Particular emphasis is being placed on burglary prevention and reduction and a targeted response to burglary regarding locations, times, offenders and victims. While I am satisfied there is adequate criminal justice legislation in place concerning receiving or handling stolen property and important enforcement steps have been taken by An Garda Síochána, there may be a case for tighter requirements specifically in the cash-for-gold sector focused on the identification of those offering items for sale, and indeed the items themselves, the recording of the transaction, retention for a period of the precious item and for accessibility to transaction records by An Garda Síochána in the event of any suspicion of criminality. Jewellery and antique shops purchase second-hand gold and other items which may be sold at auction. Charities and voluntary groups may also sell such items when donated to raise funding. Any legislation must have regard to the legitimate and lawful trade undertaken in a broad range of areas and the manner in which it is conducted both for commercial reasons and for voluntary groups which raise funds. These issues are not even considered in the Deputy's Bill.

In the area of metal thefts, several initiatives have been developed by An Garda Síochána's national crime prevention unit. As a result of analysis of crime trends, the unit has met with stakeholders particularly affected by this type of criminality including the energy supply, communications, transport, brewery, farming sectors and with the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government.

The metal theft forum under the unit was subsequently established which is working on detailed metal theft crime prevention and a reduction plan. The plan will focus on prevention and the Garda operational response while an examination of the regulation of the scrap metal industry is expected to be finalised by the end of this month. In addition, the national crime prevention unit has raised awareness of the issue in the Garda organisation and published a farm security prevention booklet. A farm security initiative, supported by the Irish Farmers Association, was launched outlining steps to secure vulnerable metal farm equipment.

I look forward to the outcome of the metal theft forum and the development of a metal theft crime prevention and reduction plan. In that respect, I await the recommendations of An Garda Síochána in respect of the law in this area.

As part of my considerations into defining precisely the measures that are needed, I will be consulting with stakeholders, relevant agencies and with my ministerial colleagues with a view to determining whether further legislative action is necessary. It is my intention the development of any necessary measures will be achieved in consultation with all relevant stakeholders. I will also ensure regulatory measures are proportionate to ensure normal trading can occur and unnecessary regulatory burdens are not imposed on those engaged in lawful retail trading activities.

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for the opportunity to discuss this Bill. As Minister for Justice and Equality, it is my obligation to carefully legally analyse any proposal that comes before the House. The unfortunate reality is that it would not be an efficient way to proceed to attempt to make countless amendments to the Deputy's Bill. I hope he will understand that for the reasons given I cannot support its proceeding from Second Stage to Committee Stage. I give the House an assurance, however, that the issues will be addressed in a considered, proportionate and effective way.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for putting forward this Bill which gives us an opportunity to speak on an issue of serious concern across the country. It is an honest attempt to address problems that have emerged with the trade in scrap and precious metals. It would be nice for this side of the House to have the whole apparatus of the State, including the Chief State Solicitor's office, available to us to do research but that is not possible. It is important the Minister recognises this as Deputy Mattie McGrath has admitted, this Bill is not the finished product. Deputy Mattie McGrath is open to suggestions and amendments.

On the previous occasion when I was elected to Dáil Éireann, in 2005 to 2006 the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Michael McDowell, introduced a criminal justice Bill that was the bare bones. An endless number of amendments was tabled by the Minister himself, which were approximately three times the size of the Bill as published. It is not without precedent for a Bill to be substantially amended, in particular in the justice area. I accept many of the points made by the Minister on some of the areas that need to be addressed in the Bill.

There is no doubt a serious problem exists. I wish to refer to a few issues relating to the scrap area. Only last week children were denied some of the play facilities in a playground in Dundalk when metal was taken. All local authorities are concerned about the theft of monuments around the country. They are considering security. We regularly hear about monuments being stolen on the news at 6 p.m. Recently, a monument to a family killed in a fire tragedy in a particular area was stolen. While the metal itself might not have been valuable, it was valuable to the relatives of those killed in the tragedy because it marked the terrible event that changed forever the lives of those who survived the fire.

I am a member of a joint policing committee in Kildare. The Garda has told us that the burglaries taking place are targeting jewellery. That is happening because there is a way of laundering it. Anyone who has had their house broken into - reference has already been made to it - is aware that it is one of the most traumatic events. It takes a long time for people to regain confidence in their homes, if ever. This is a serious issue if cash-for-gold shops are being used to, in effect, launder jewellery that in most cases is of greater sentimental value than the metal itself to those who own it.

There is an unfinished estate in my area with approximately a dozen houses that were unsold, as the developer did not have the money to do the final fit-out. They were gutted of anything of value, including metals, doors, patio doors and flashing. Those houses may have to be demolished. It has been a source of concern to the people living in the estate because of associated gang-related activity since the houses were gutted. There is a lack of funding for the provision of security on the part of those who have not been able to complete the estate for whatever reason. What is happening opens up the prospect of that becoming an even greater problem.

Another item which has been taken, which might seem like a fairly minor one until one loses a child down one, is manhole covers over drains and sewers. When that happened people were rightly concerned about the dangers posed. Although it is not connected with scrap metal, in the past week a tragic event occurred where a child lost his life, but it is predictable that this could happen.

In the 19th century an entire detective division of, for example, the Dublin Metropolitan Police, which tends to be considered as the G division for all sorts of other reasons, had sole responsibility for the regulation of pawnbrokers, who were made liable to prosecution if they received stolen goods. That did keep the problem under control. It is clear that we go through cycles when such products are valuable. The Minister is correct; the issue relates to items that are tangible and currently valuable. Metals are being laundered and money is being received in return for them.

I do not know how it could be dealt with but currently UK companies have become involved in buying gold. One sends the gold in an envelope to the UK. It is difficult to regulate when the gold goes outside the jurisdiction. It would not be done if there was not a value on the metals in question. The cost of security is a big issue, not least for local authorities in terms of monuments that are dotted around the country that have been paid for out of public funds.

Committee Stage provides an opportunity to radically amend Bills, if need be. I accept the point about legitimate business and the antiques trade. Nobody is greatly concerned about a business that has been a valuable one, if one will pardon the pun, when it is a legitimate trade. The point has been made that where there is an honest outlet, it is being impacted upon by virtue of the fact that others are being less than rigorous in terms of the origin of some of the material received and those who consistently supply it. There is a need for speedy action in terms of responding to this serious problem. It will become a greater problem if systems are not put in place as a matter of urgency to prevent it from happening.

In his response the Minister referred to a plan for focusing on prevention. What prevention can one have on an unsecured construction site? What security can one implement to prevent people taking away manhole covers? There must be something beyond that approach. It may well not be within the scope of the Department of Justice and Equality as the Bill relates to both scrap metal and precious metals. A problem already exists. We cannot wait forever for a solution or the introduction of penalties that might curb some of the activities currently taking place.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for publishing the Bill. This is an important issue, one that affects both urban and rural areas. We have had debates in recent weeks in the House about urban and rural areas being at odds and being divided but this is truly a problem that unites the entire country.

I acknowledge the important point made by Deputy Catherine Murphy. It is one the Government will have to take on board if it is serious about empowering the Oireachtas. Friday sittings are excellent. It is a good idea. Despite some of the negative coverage the sittings might have received, they provide a great opportunity for those of us on all sides of the House who are not members of the Cabinet to produce legislation. It must be recognised in the Government's response to the Bills that we are limited in terms of what Deputy Murphy referred to as the apparatus that is available to us. Therefore, the Government must examine how it will address Bills that are presented in the House by Members on all sides on any issue that will not be complete articles. The role of Committee Stage in that regard must also be examined. I make this point both in respect of the Bill and the broader issue. If we as legislators are to be encouraged and provided with a forum in which to produce legislation, it should receive as positive a response as possible from the Government.

Every Deputy has heard of incidents of metal being robbed from people's yards. The cash for gold shops are a phenomenon, but there are other offers, for example, newspaper advertisements. If one posts jewellery in an envelope, one receives a cheque a few weeks later, no questions asked. One could walk into a shop that sprang up overnight on any street corner and no questions would be asked about one's jewellery. The jewellery could have been left to the person by a granny or obtained illegally, but no differentiation is made. This is the nub of the problem. The Deputy's Bill attempts to address it and the House is probably united in wanting a solution.

It is clear that regulation is required. I take on board my colleague, Deputy Keating's interjection on the need not to infringe on legitimate business, but any legitimate business owner would welcome this legislation. Such business people are operating under the same cloud of suspicion because of the questions about the industry, the lack of regulation and, to use Deputy Mattie McGrath's colourful language, the cowboys operating in the area. Regulation is not to be feared by legitimate businesses.

Deputies O'Brien and Catherine Murphy made points about joint policing committees, JPCs, which I presume will be made again. JPCs have been successful and positive initiatives undertaken by the Minister's Department, but they are of little use if their findings are not heeded. Since my election to Wicklow County Council in 2009 and in my capacity as a Member of Dáil Éireann, I have not attended a JPC meeting at which the issue of cash for gold has not been raised. These were town and county policing meetings that took in urban and rural areas. Time and again, elected members and community representatives have raised the issue of the link, albeit anecdotal, between cash for gold schemes and shops and burglaries. In my home town, a cash for gold exhibition, for wont of a better word, was held in a local centre and people could attend it over the weekend with their jewellery. A number of houses were robbed that weekend. The burglars walked by laptops and other valuable items and took the jewellery.

While I accept the Minister's bona fides when he states that the Garda Commissioner has indicated no identifiable increase in crime as a result of the increase in cash for gold trading, I urge the Commissioner to investigate this matter further, to seek reports from the chief superintendents and superintendents who attend JPC meetings, to speak with his community gardaí and to listen to feedback from residents' associations and neighbourhood watch groups. There is a problem, but it is not my job or that of any Deputy to compile evidence. That is the job of the Garda Síochána. The JPC structure was established in recognition of the need for policing to be more than just the responsibility of the Garda and is providing a significant amount of feedback. It is important that this feedback would feed into the Department of Justice and Equality when this issue is being addressed.

To turn to the negative, I accept the Minister's comments on the flaws in the legislation. I sympathise with Deputy Mattie McGrath, as they are flaws that any of us would make when drafting legislation. Drafting a complete Bill is difficult.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I accept that.

Deputy Simon Harris

The solution that is put in place must be meaningful and must give the Garda the tools it needs, as the Minister outlined. However, this is not to give the Government a free pass on the issue. In light of the Minister's comments, there is an onus on him to revert to the House as a matter of urgency in respect of cash for gold shops and metal thefts. I am pleased that he has shared with the House his inclination towards increased regulation or, to use his reference, tighter requirements. This necessity is blindingly obvious and needs to be acted upon. I was also pleased to hear that the metal theft forum would report by the end of this month. It is important that those reports be acted upon.

Today has been a good start in the House and I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for providing it. Opposing it easy, and many of the Deputies on the other side do it regularly. There is a tendency on this side of the House to oppose on Fridays. It makes for a refreshing change. Finding flaws is easy. While the Government must address legal difficulties and ensure that legislation is properly thought through, its job is to be courageous and not just to oppose. I urge the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, to take the sentiment of the Bill and turn it into workable legislation as quickly as possible.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I welcome the opportunity to make a few comments on the Bill. I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath and every Deputy who has contributed.

I wanted to speak because, like many Deputies, I am a member of a JPC. My Galway East colleagues in the previous Dáil nominated me as the Oireachtas representative to a sub-committee. The constituency's three new Deputies have not got rid of me. I suppose I could say that I am happy not to have been scrapped. I report to those Members on discussions at the sub-committee.

One issue that is often raised at the JPC is that of crime. This is not to say that crime has increased. Rather, I am referring to the types of crime. Manhole covers have been stolen and sold for scrap. As Deputy Catherine Murphy stated, it is not just a matter of goods being stolen, as the theft of manhole covers in particular presents a danger to people and children. Another issue that is often raised is that of the theft of home heating oil. The situation has worsened - not only is the oil stolen, but the tank is also stolen for scrap. This is of particular concern.

According to community wardens, the collection of scrap has led to a welcome improvement in the environment. Fund-raising has played a beneficial role, in that many voluntary groups and sporting bodies raise money for the collection and disposal of scrap. In my parish, the GAA and the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, have worked hard in this regard.

At the local JPC in Galway, many issues have been raised in respect of the traceability of goods, ownership and proof of identity. Stricter controls could help investigations when items are stolen. Proof of identity is clearly an issue but, in terms of the disposal of scrap in yards, the question of vehicle registration could be considered. PPS numbers and other methods of control have been cited.

Although I have not heard it suggested yet in this debate, the idea that something other than cash-only transactions would be used when paying people for scrap could address the problem. For example, cheques, credit cards or bank drafts would provide proof of those transactions. In many cases, cash-only transactions make applying controls difficult. This proposal was made loud and clear at my JPC.

Traceability is an important matter and the issues of identity and ownership are at the heart of the issue. I would hate to see the situation mushroom. Deputies have given examples of incidents in which property was stolen. As many of the rural Members present know, this is a problem in rural Ireland.

I support the Bill. Although the Minister has stated that he cannot accept it, this is a good start to the debate. We can determine what improvements are necessary and how to tighten controls. I congratulate Deputy Mattie McGrath on introducing the Bill.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I have been raising the issue of precious metal operations, as well as the wider question of scrap metal, since 2009. I am delighted, therefore, that Deputy Mattie McGrath has taken this important initiative in bringing his Bill before the House.

The surge in thefts of precious metals is directly related to their escalating price, which is expected to continue for the next four to five years. It is, therefore, imperative that stricter safeguards are put in place, including enhanced controls for the purchasing, selling, trading, consignment selling or otherwise disposing of precious and scrap metals and a mechanism to verify that gold and other metal products offered for sale are from a legitimate source.

I was disappointed by the response from the Minister for Justice and Equality, who argued that the existing legislation is adequate to address the problem. He referred to the example of the Pawnbrokers Act 1964, but that legislation was introduced to invigilate a limited part of the trade in this area. The explosion of scrap metal yards and gold and other precious metal shops is a serious issue that must be addressed. I had several debates with the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Dermot Ahern, on this issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy made an important point regarding Friday sessions and the efforts made by Deputies on all sides of the House to introduce legislation. Among the Private Members' Bills on the Clár is one I have prepared on cemeteries and crematoria. There is nothing to stop a Department from advising Deputies on how these Bills could be improved prior to their consideration in this House. It is regrettable that the Minister has indicated that he will not accept the Bill.

Metal theft is not a victimless crime. The Association of Chief Police Officers in the UK estimated in 2010 that metal theft cost the UK economy approximately £770 million per year. The Transport Committee of the House of Commons held an inquiry into the explosion in incidents involving theft of railway cables across the British rail system. The committee's report referred to the serious environmental and societal cost of these criminal activities.

Similar attacks on important national infrastructure and heritage sites have occurred in Ireland. I could cite numerous incidents of theft in my constituency of Dublin North-East, including an outrageous attack on the historic Belcamp College on the former Hely-Hutchinson estate. The college is near the location where one of the fathers of our nation, Henry Grattan, was born and walked as a boy before helping to secure legislative independence for this country and where Countess Markiewicz trained the young men and women of Na Fianna for the 1916 Rising. The college's priceless Harry Clarke stained glass windows had to be removed recently when a number of pipes and metal fittings were stolen. In Baldoyle, the vacant St. Mary's convent was also the site of an appalling robbery in which miscreants stripped metal from the building and left it bereft of pipework and heating infrastructure. In Donneycarney, Dublin City Council has just completed a major project to remediate pyrite problems in a senior citizen centre but the residents are unable to move back in because a number of the homes have been completely stripped of their metal fittings. The historic reliquary and tabernacle in St. Brigid's church in Killester, which was brought from Portugal 70 years ago, were stolen and have never been recovered.

Other speakers referred to the outrageous theft of major monuments, such as the bronze lady near Moate, County Westmeath, and the hitchhiker near Monasterevin, County Kildare. It is believed that both of these national monuments were melted down for their scrap metal value and have been destroyed forever. The Minister did not provide figures on the extent of the problem, however. The previous Minister indicated that the Garda Commissioner would publish a report on the issue but the only report of which I am aware is that published by the Sunday World on foot of its investigation into theft from Magee Barracks in Kildare town. This former Army barracks was completely stripped of electricity and telephone copper wiring worth approximately €50,000, as well as the bell from its clock tower. The newspaper also reported on a range of thefts of copper wiring, steel manhole covers and copper boilers from derelict factories, ghost estates and houses under construction. It estimated that criminals can get €6 per kilogram of copper, €1 per kilogram of lead and up to €200 per tonne of scrap steel. Just two years ago the same amount of scrap steel would have been worth €30. This indicates the scale of demand for these products and explains why rogue operators might be tempted to break the law.

A thorough analysis of the growing problem of scrap metals theft has been carried out in the UK over the past two years. The British House of Lords found that between March 2010 and March 2011, Network Rail recorded 995 incidents of cable theft resulting in train delays totalling over 6,000 hours. After the UK Justice Minister indicated that he has insufficient resources to address this issues, the British Transport Police were given responsibility for dealing with criminality in the scrap metal trade.

In contrast to the UK, there are few hard figures on the extent of metal theft in Ireland. The anecdotal evidence is very strong, however, as Deputy Harris suggested when he outlined the relationship between home burglaries and the sale of gold and other precious metals.

One of the main means of curbing metal theft is regulation of scrap metal dealers. Section 7 of the Bill would require scrap metal dealers to keep a record of every transaction involving scrap metal, including the signature of the person with whom the transaction was made, the time and date of the transaction, the name of the person or employee conducting the transaction, the name, date, sex, PPS number, residential address and contact details of the person selling the scrap metal and a signed undertaking that the property was not stolen. It has been proposed in the UK that CCTV should be installed beside the weigh bridges in scrap metal yards and that the police should be given powers to close scrap metal businesses and gold shops if they are not operating in accordance with the law. Given that special regulations aimed at curbing theft have applied to scrap metal dealers in the UK since the latter part of the 19th century, it is incredible that our legislation still contains such large gaps.

The vast majority of the gold trade is conducted through legitimate and respectable jewellery shops and businesses, but serious concerns have been raised about unlicensed and unregulated door-to-door operations that my constituents believe are facilitating the upsurge in house burglaries that target gold and other jewellery. This issue was first raised by Labour Party members at a constituency council. They were concerned at the advertising, the considerable upsurge in gold for cash operations and what they believed was a seemingly inexorable rise in house burglaries.

The Minister did not provide any figures or evidence. However, I note that in the last CSO figures released on recorded crime for quarter three of 2011, the headline for the whole report noted that the incidence of most offences fell while burglaries rose. There was an 8.5% rise in burglary and related offences from quarter three in 2010 to quarter three in 2011. In my constituency and my county of Fingal, Howth Garda Station recorded an increase of more than 6% in the incidence of burglary between January and December 2011.

As the Minister is aware, almost every Deputy is a member of a policing forum in various counties and cities. We have the first figures to hand for crime in each quarter and we examine these figures at the meetings. One common thread through all of the meetings in many counties is the rise in burglaries. This is clearly backed up by anecdotal evidence. I became aware of a case only last month in which a house was burgled and the only things stolen were gold jewellery items from the bedroom, precisely the type of theft referred to by several colleagues this morning.

When I first raised the difficulties with gold operators in the Dáil, I asked the former Minister with responsibility for justice, Dermot Ahern, to address the apparent total lack of regulation of the gold jewellery trade. My proposal on behalf of the Labour Party at that stage was for a licensing procedure to be put in place for the establishment and operation of all gold shops, on-street or door-to-door gold trading operations. I welcome the initiative of the Minister, Deputy Shatter, in this regard and that in the recent past all of these operations have been visited by the Garda Síochána. The Garda in each of the various districts is aware of the physical presence of gold operations, the type of advertising that takes place and the operations run in larger businesses. I am unsure to what extent they have invigilated scrap metal operations or examined the broader territory that Deputy Mattie McGrath has attempted to address this morning.

I welcome Part 2, which proposes that there must be a record of each transaction by a precious metal dealer, including the details I mentioned above. This will serve as a first step to giving us safe, secure scrap metal and gold and precious metal industries. I also welcome Part 5, which states that all precious metal dealers must register with An Garda Síochána and that dealers must comply with Garda requests for information on recent transactions. It is incredible that some of these operations have carried on with impunity in recent years. The former Minister, Dermot Ahern, was rather slow to address this.

I welcome the publication of what I presume is the review that the former Minister, Dermot Ahern, was to provide for the House. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, referred to this review in his contribution. It will allow for a comprehensive legislative response. When the Minister was out of the Chamber I noted that Departments could begin by helping Deputies, such as Deputy Mattie McGrath, who bring forward legislation when there are Bills on the clár relating to their area. Deputy Catherine Murphy noted that one of the Minister's predecessors, Mr. McDowell, apparently did this frequently. The Minister might be prepared to indicate to Deputies how a given Bill could be strengthened. This would enable a Bill to proceed to Committee Stage and to become law. The Minister is somewhat famous in the history of the Parliament because he introduced a major Bill affecting our social life, the Bill on separations, some decades ago. Subsequently, it became the law of the land for many years before divorce legislation was enacted. The Minister will understand the challenge facing a Deputy who is not part of the Government and I call on him to accept Deputy McGrath's proposals.

The Minister might also consider further measures such as those being considered in the United Kingdom. The British Transport Police appears to have been given a specific role by the Home Secretary and Chancellor with regard to the explosion of scrap metal and precious metal crime. Apparently, the police in the UK have the power to close a scrap metal or precious metal operation immediately if they believe it could represent a danger. They have also requested that all cash payments are ended and prohibited. I referred to some other measures including closed circuit television, CCTV. All trucks arriving with scrap should be filmed and the film retained.

This is a worldwide problem. Several American states are legislating for this at present, including West Virginia and Georgia, in addition to what is under way in the United Kingdom. This is a rather bad international problem and the impact, especially on our senior vulnerable citizens, is marked. I have referred to a rise in burglaries in our district and other districts throughout the country. I call on the Minister to take Deputy McGrath's Bill and allow it to go to on Committee State and to support it and makes the changes necessary. Further, I call on the Minister to help all the other Deputies who have tabled private members' legislation.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I wish to share my time with Deputy Joe McHugh. I will be brief. I wish to go on the record to thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for raising this subject. It gives all of us an opportunity to articulate the issues and problems in our constituencies. It also affords the Minister an opportunity to give us an update. I realise he is on top of this issue and dealing with it. This issue is live among the public. It was remarked already that there are legitimate businesses up and running giving employment and it is in their interest that regulation is brought in.

The criminal element must be weeded out. There is exploitation of and dangers for people in rural communities. They must be reassured that their possessions are safe and secure. The title "cash for gold" is a good marketing title. People who are strapped for cash may believe they can walk in the door and return five minutes later with cash and this makes them vulnerable. This is something that must be considered as well.

We should remember that there are legitimate and significant scrap metal operations throughout the country. They must be protected by whatever regulation is introduced. My local GAA club raised a substantial amount of money by going to people in the community, including the parents of the players, and offering to get rid of scrap metal they did not want to keep. It served as a tidy up and it was good for the environment. Many people were pleased to see that club members were not coming to sell tickets but to get rid of unwanted material.

I realise the Minister is on top of this situation. My colleague in the European Parliament, Jim Higgins MEP, has been in touch with the Minister and has made many of the suggestions contained in Deputy McGrath's Bill with regard to the minimum retention time that a cash for gold outlet could hold on to goods before they are passed on. This would enable the identification of the seller if there were any issues arising. I recognise that the Minister has taken these suggestions on board.

There is a certain fear in the community when one sees live Eircom cables being cut down. I live in Ballaghaderreen where copper cylinders are being taken from unfinished estates. This is a real issue which must be addressed. Everyone is keen to get some regulation across the line to protect legitimate people. This debate is a great opportunity in this regard and I welcome and support the solutions that will be brought forward as a result of it.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I will be brief. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the Bill and I welcome the spirit of the Bill. There is no doubt that the demand for precious and scrap metal has gone through the roof.

We must look at the positives and the silver lining of that when we look around the countryside, where there is no such thing as a scrapped car lying around because of the demand. It is important to note that there are legitimate scrap dealers working within the law, whether at local authority or national level. Therefore we should not consider these people cowboys or consider that illegal scrap dealers encompass this group, as intimated by Deputy Mattie McGrath.

This debate needs to be developed as it is very restricted. I understand the Minister's concerns and reservations in that regard. If we consider the land mass of Ireland, we have an acreage of 17.4 million acres. However, scrap metal is not restricted to land. We have significant underground cabling under and on the sea bed. Therefore, we need an all-encompassing strategy to examine the possibility of retrieving some of the scrap copper cabling on the sea bed. It is possible there are approximately 220 million acres and perhaps we should look at the possibility of a public private partnership to become involved in that. I accept the Minister's reservations, but I call for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to work closely with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the possibility of a public private partnership between private entrepreneurs, some of whom have approached me, who are interested in working with the Government to retrieve some of this cabling.

Obviously, some cable is owned by companies, so we will have to consider an identification process. I would like to acknowledge and compliment some of the staff in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources who feel this is a good idea. However, there is no legislation on this area or around the possibility of retrieving some of the vast quantities of copper on or under the sea bed. This is an area where the State would possibly be in a win-win situation as an initiative on this could help create employment and help recover a precious metal, such as copper that has been used for the telecommunications industry. We are living in a time when we need solutions. We are also living in a time when many people have the energy and will to do new things to try to get us out of the mess we are in. This is a possible solution. Also, at a local level there are people who are interested in working with Government on this. I ask the Government to respond to these people who want to get involved in this business but who do not want to work on a purely private speculative basis but to work with the State. This could be a model of best practice for raising revenue for the State and creating employment.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to speak on this Scrap and Precious Metal Dealers Bill 2011. I also thank and commend my colleague, Deputy Mattie McGrath, on bringing the Bill before the House, because this is an important issue throughout the country. Deputy Mattie McGrath has presented an excellent Bill and we should all support its proposals. The promotion of Bills such as this demonstrates how Independent Deputies are introducing legislation that deals directly with major issues affecting people's lives and offers constructive solutions. When Deputies bring forward such legislation, we should all try to support them and the sensible solutions they propose. I expect more from the Minister in this regard. If there are issues in this Bill that need tidying and if there are issues of professionalism with regard to its production, the Minister should use the skills and resources of the Department to support the legislation and its principles.

This Bill is an excellent piece of legislation. Having listened to colleagues from all political persuasions here today, it is clear that Deputy McGrath has touched a nerve by raising this issue. I will give a slightly different view from those already expressed on this issue. One of the big issues in this regard in my constituency is the issue of "cash for gold". Many people are concerned about this. I have been approached by jewellers and people in small businesses who are concerned that criminal elements are involved in this area. We must be vigilant in this regard in the context of this debate. This issue has caused fear in many rural and urban communities. The threat to take copper, metals, jewellery, gold or whatever from people's houses has caused significant problems, particularly for senior citizens who have major fears. The Bill deals with these issues.

We must be seen to show strong support for legitimate businesses in this area, as has been mentioned by contributors to this debate. The Bill also offers a solution of which the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Garda seem unaware as yet to a significant problem. If the legislation is supported and passed, it has significant potential to reduce violent crime against people and communities. If the Minister can regulate, supervise and sort out this issue, he can reduce the likelihood of attacks on the elderly and of violent crime in people's homes. He can also reduce the potential number of gun incidents in communities throughout the country. In some of these incidents people have been shot and intimidated in their homes and sometimes victims have overreacted. We must ask whether this legislation provides a solution. I say "Yes", it is part of the solution. It will also help reduce violent crime against senior citizens, particularly those in isolated rural areas. We must consider this seriously when dealing with this legislation.

We must also look more deeply at other questions. We must consider why people have become involved in trading in scrap metals and what is going on in society. First, it appears to be a very easy activity in which to become involved. These people seem to sail in and take the copper, metal or piece of public art very easily. These metals are accessible and they can deal with them quickly. There is also an easy cash flow and money can be made quickly. There is also another agenda. Some sectors of society have contempt for the rest of society and because of their own image are involved in crime. We must look at this broader debate too. We must ask why people are getting involved in this type of crime, but this issue seems to be brushed under the carpet. Some people who are marginalised, extremely disadvantaged and disowned by their communities will become involved in crime.

There is an undercurrent in this debate related to Travellers. Deputy Mattie McGrath spoke about traditional tinsmith Travellers who offered a service to people. The majority of Travellers are not involved in crime, but just get on with their lives. Historically, the first recyclers in this country came from the Traveller community. It was only in the past ten or 15 years that recycling became trendy in the settled community. However, Travellers have a long history in this regard. This section of society with a long tradition of recycling and involvement offers significant potential. Let us get them involved in the industry and let them and us come up with new ideas that can be developed. Many of those in the Traveller community have come forward with constructive economic proposals. We should support them rather than marginalise them.

To return to the legislation, the purpose of the Bill is to implement stricter controls related to the purchasing, selling, trading, consignment selling or transfer for value of precious or scrap metal. The Bill attempts to deal with the situation. There has been an increase in petty crime in this area and we are also aware there have been some incidents of violent crime. The majority of those involved in these crimes seem to get away with it. They operate fast, make their money and get out of town. The robbery at Killester church, which is in my constituency, was mentioned earlier. It is important to highlight these incidents because they affect communities directly. Copper was taken from the senior citizens' complex in Donnycarney.

I wish to speak about the detail of this legislation. Section 3 of the Bill sets out the obligations to be fulfilled by precious metal dealers in obtaining and retaining proof of identity from the sources providing goods to them and in obtaining and retaining records of such transactions. Deputy Mattie McGrath has provided for strong supervision and regulation in this section. The Minister should seriously consider this constructive proposal.

Section 4, which provides for a 30-day waiting period in respect of the removal of goods obtained through consignment, would improve safety and security. I know some of my colleagues have reservations about some aspects of this proposal, but I suggest the broad parameters of section 4 are sensible.

Section 6 sets out the offences and penalties that will accrue to precious metal dealers who fail to comply with the terms of this legislation. Rather than seeing this activity in a negative light, it is important that we consider it positively. If metal dealers are properly supervised and regulated, there is significant potential for job creation in this sector. We need to take this opportunity to allow sections of society that have often been discriminated against and marginalised contribute to the economy.

Section 7 sets out the obligations to be fulfilled by scrap metal dealers in obtaining and retaining proof of identity from the sources providing goods to them. That is very important from a security and safety perspective.

I am strongly supportive of section 9, which provides that all scrap metal dealers must register with the Garda in the course of an investigation into the theft of an item or items of precious metal and may be required to furnish the Garda with the details of items that may be relevant to that investigation. Section 9 is very important.

I encourage professionalism in the Garda Síochána. We need quality professionals in the force. We have seen in recent days that parts of the Garda need to get their act together. The Minister should be conscious of the need for objectivity and professionalism from gardaí as they implement the law of the land. They should act in a professional and impartial way. I will not get into the details of the reason I am saying that. Over the past 12 hours, many people expressed have major concerns about what has been seen to be going on in relation to a number of serious issues.

I mentioned that section 9 is important. Public servants who are responsible for implementing the law of the land should do so in a fair way. The Garda needs to have the confidence of scrap metal dealers and their staff. We have to ensure they are protected as well.

It is important to commend those who have come up with ideas. I was interested to hear Deputy McHugh's proposal, which related to cables under the sea. I had never heard about that aspect of the matter before. We should all support the proposal because it has obvious potential for creating jobs and developing the whole theme of this debate.

Section 10 sets out the offences and penalties that will accrue to precious metal dealers who fail to comply with the terms of this legislation. It is important that we provide for sanctions. That is why Deputy Mattie McGrath has included such strong provisions in section 10. We need to be able to say to the good guys and girls that those who do not undertake their business in a legitimate way will be penalised for that. A carrot and stick approach should be taken in this regard.

I welcome the Bill that Deputy Mattie McGrath has brought before the House. I commend and thank him for doing so. I have heard some interesting ideas from my colleagues on all sides of the House. The essence of the legislation is to try to advance the debate on precious metals and scrap and ensure our citizens are safe. As I said previously, we have to ensure people consider the Bill constructively. The potential exists to develop other aspects that should be part of this debate, such as job creation and recycling.

I touched on the potential for crime. We have to ensure our citizens are protected. We have to be balanced and objective. We should focus on ways of stopping crime. Any good Minister for Justice and Equality worth his or her salt will always try to be very interested in crime prevention, instead of ignoring the issue until the crime has been committed. Rather than waiting until the senior citizen has been attacked or the young person has been murdered, we should try to study, understand and deal with the causes of crime. This Bill proposes a solution that would reduce the potential for further crime in our communities.

This is an economic issue, a justice issue and a common sense issue. The introduction of legislation to deal with it shows that the Independent Deputies like Deputy Mattie McGrath can make a difference. We have introduced legislation on a number of Fridays. I hear people whingeing and saying that the Opposition never makes constructive proposals. This is an example of such a proposal. It has received the support of many of the Minister's colleagues. I put it to him that he should support Deputy Mattie McGrath's Bill and get on with it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy James Bannon

In "The Comedy of Errors", William Shakespeare wrote that "time comes stealing on by night and day" and that "time is a very bankrupt". He could not have envisaged that in the 21st century, "time" in the guise of metal thieves would come, as he said, in the night and steal two irreplaceable original lead downpipes from his daughter's home in Stratford-upon-Avon. This is a small example of a worldwide epidemic that is driven by recession and moral bankruptcy. It is an indictment of the times in which we are living. The scope of this criminal scourge encompasses the theft of scrap and precious metals for easy gain. It is fuelled through an industry that asks no questions. Dealers who offer cash for metal must be made accountable. We must force them to end cash-based transactions. The metal industry must be required to clean up its act. Currently, it is adding to the rising tide of opportunistic crime that has its base in the acquisition of easy money.

There are more than 1,000 metal thefts in Britain each week. There were more than over 60,000 offences in the first 10 months of last year. This problem is so bad - it is costing the UK economy approximately £770 million per annum - that a pilot campaign has been launched in north-east England to tackle it. This initiative will be run by a crime-fighting charity, Crimestoppers, which will encourage people to pass on information about metal thefts anonymously. This is a reaction to a situation which sees churches forced to replace lead with plastic and install roof alarms booming out "the voice of God" as a deterrent to the stripping of lead. Historic buildings, memorials, statues and manhole covers are being targeted. Transport and communications are being affected.

I listened to Deputy Mattie McGrath on "Today with Pat Kenny" yesterday. He spoke about the theft of metal cables in Limerick. Such crimes can put people at great risk. People's lives are threatened when thieves remove the copper cabling on which our transport systems depend. There is a growing fear that metal theft could threaten Olympic travel. Communications are being compromised by the theft of overhead cables. Metal theft is not a victimless crime. It can lead to fatalities and injuries among victims and perpetrators. Some 7,000 incidents in Britain last year led to four deaths and 31 injuries. Theft from railways is leading to an increase in cancelled train services, which increases frustration among commuters. These thefts are happening on the public transport system, as pointed out yesterday by the Deputy. While the scale of the problem is not so great in Ireland, it is imperative to stop a growing trend before it escalates further.

I welcome this Bill as a pre-emptive strike against the rise in scrap and precious metal theft in this country. The current gold rush, which has seen the price of gold soar, is leading to burglaries and the terrorising of elderly people in their homes up and down the country. I raised this matter in September 2010 at the joint policing committee in Longford and I urged the then Government to introduce legislation to ensure greater transparency in the gold and scrap metal markets. With gold being regarded as a safe and profitable investment, burglars are cashing in on the demand. Stolen jewellery is being sold on for melting down with no questions asked.

I am sure the Minister will take note of this Bill and will bring forward a Government Bill to provide that all gold and precious metals will be subject to compulsory registration and traceability. The photographing of jewellery and other pieces offered for sale must be part of any legislation. The Garda Síochána must be fully supported in its fight against such crime by every means possible. There is an onus on members of the public to support the Garda Síochána in this work.

Currently, all that glitters is gold for criminal gangs. Thieves are turning steel, brass, copper and aluminium into a gold-plated investment. The victims are the elderly and the vulnerable who stand between the criminals and the untraceable conversion of metals into money. Every single metal theft is an attack on the wider community or on individuals.

The midlands has been particularly hard-hit by this crime wave. Copper pipes, cylinders and radiators have been stolen from homes and public places, with derelict sites also being targeted. Copper cylinders have been stolen from many unfinished housing estates in County Longford and in County Westmeath and, as a result of these robberies, many of these sites have become even more derelict. My neighbour in Longford had his entire cattle pen stolen one night. This sort of crime is highly opportunistic and is carried out by sneak thieves and day-tripper gangs who target Longford and Westmeath in a quick in and quick out incursion, grabbing what they can. Gates have been taken away from farmyards and cattle allowed to roam onto the public road. We do not wish an escalation of the problem in this country.

It seems incredible that two one-tonne bronze pieces of public art were stolen from Moate in County Westmeath, in my own constituency, and another in Kildare last April, with a total value of €100,000. They were obviously stolen for their scrap and metal value, leaving a feeling of shock and violation in these communities. We are all aware of the shameful theft of the 10 foot high bronze memorial in County Laois, which was erected to the memory of young people who had died in tragic circumstances. That such a public expression of grief on the deaths of young men, women and children should be stolen and sold without accountability is a reflection of the lack of safeguards for memorials, public artwork, historic buildings, personal jewellery and artefacts. This crime is a scourge that recognises no boundaries of religious, artistic, personal or civic rights. It is a crime wave that destroys for quick profit, a joint effort between criminals and shady dealers which must be stamped out.

I do not want to see our valuable heritage wilfully destroyed by vandals who are assisted by a loophole in the law. While we must be cautious of excessive bureaucracy and red tape, which will penalise legitimate dealers, steps must be taken to halt the illegal gold and scrap metal rush. I compliment Deputy Mattie McGrath on bringing this important Bill before the House. However, it does not go far enough as it fails to fully outlaw cash for metal transactions, a fact acknowledged by Deputy McGrath when he spoke on "Today with Pat Kenny" yesterday morning and which is the cause of the current crime wave that must be eradicated. We need to act quickly to regulate the scrap metal industry. Legislation cannot come quickly enough to prevent our heritage from being destroyed. The true scale of the epidemic is unknown as many of the thefts go unreported. I ask the Minister to consider setting up a dedicated task force to deal with this growing problem. I know of several people who did not report the matter but I would encourage the reporting of all such incidents which would provide more accurate statistics on the extent of the problem.

Cash transactions at scrap yards must be declared illegal in order to stop thieves profiting from the sale of stolen metal. The cash for gold practice makes it almost impossible for the Garda Síochána to trace the thieves. There is an urgent need to introduce trading restrictions and a ban on cash purchases. I have made the point on numerous previous occasions that regulation of scrap yards is required. Any delay will result in further loss of property and serious damage to our infrastructure and our rich heritage. If action is not taken quickly, the day will come when lives will be lost. This is an ongoing problem that must not be ignored or brushed under the carpet any longer. In regulating scrap yards, questions must be asked and a register of metal should be compulsory. I am confident this able and capable Minister will take robust action against these criminals by introducing legislation to deal with scrap for cash. It is up to each of us, as citizens of this State, to stand up against all types of theft, particularly metal theft and other unlawful activities. I will speak on this matter again when the Government brings forward its own legislation.

Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan

I wish to share my time with Deputy Joan Collins. Many debates in this House are on the big issues, the macro issues, so it is good to deal with a matter which has a direct impact on people's lives, both in rural and urban areas. The Minister says this Bill provides a useful opportunity to discuss the issues and that he regards it as an earnest attempt to deal with the issues. However, in my view, the Friday morning sittings of the House must go further than this; otherwise, they become a talking shop and no matter what is introduced on one side will not be supported on the other side. There is a need for action to come out of these morning sittings rather than one side against the other.

Farms, building sites, churches, clubs and homes have been targeted for metal because it is very easy to turn that metal into very lucrative cash situations. This Bill would apply to certain businesses the strict control which applies to practically every other business. Rural areas are particularly vulnerable. Farms, in particular those in isolated places, are a prime target. The one part of Ireland I know very well is west Cork and it has been a particular target for these gangs. We have seen the extent of the scrap metal, gold and machinery which has been stolen. I do not know the answer but are there links to the closure of the rural Garda stations? Bronze, copper and stainless steel are the metals which are being targeted because there are high financial rewards for the gangs and very nice profits to be melted down. It is extremely easy for them which is part of the problem. The gangs are well organised. They have cutting equipment and transport and they know what they are doing and what they can get away with, which is the key point.

I refer to the various attacks on the arts, and examples were given this morning and the media have covered them. People have spent much time producing these works of sculpture suddenly to find to their absolute amazement and horror that they have been taken. The bronze Gráinne Óg statue, which weighed 1 tonne, was taken from a location near Moate in Deputy Bannon's constituency. Another 1,000 kg, 3 m tall bronze statue was taken from County Kildare while another statue was taken from Rathmore in County Kerry. I refer to the extreme poignancy of the one mentioned in County Laois. People raised funds to erect a 10 ft bronze, copper and brass statue in memory of 30 young people who had died in tragic circumstances. Those statues were targeted and taken because people could get away with it and make nice profits.

There is also a very lucrative trade in copper wire from the theft of overhead telephone cables. We know of steel gates being stolen from railway level crossings. The other particularly nasty theft, which Deputy Catherine Murphy mentioned earlier, was that of slides from playgrounds. Imagine taking slides from playgrounds, which are funded by local authorities whose funding is being cut. The children are being left without them and they must be replaced.

I turn to the city areas and cash for gold, although I know it is not particular to these areas. There is no doubt but that this was rampant throughout Dublin Central, which I represent. The issue of cash for gold came up at meeting after meeting. A particularly significant aspect of it was the way local authorities allowed their premises to be used as venues for cash for gold but eventually, via the policing forum, that was disallowed. I also believe there was a connection between the increase in burglaries in those areas and the cash for gold businesses and the availability of drugs, and we know how serious an issue that is.

What Deputy Mattie McGrath is doing in this Bill is very practical and he has come up with very definite suggestions. One of the main ones is that there should be no cash transactions and that there is always a paper trail. That should be fairly easy to bring in. The use of CCTV has also been mentioned. Scrap metal companies should be obliged to look for proof of where the material has come from because there are situations in which the black economy is being contributed to and this is a very lucrative area for the black economy. I do not believe there is any targeting of legitimate jewellery and antique businesses, which the Minister mentioned.

The Minister referred to critical matters for which the Bill does not make provision. I hope that when it reaches the next Stage, those provisions will be included so the reasons Deputy Mattie McGrath brought this Bill to the House will be taken care of.

The Minister also mentioned the aspects involving An Garda Síochána and said there is a requirement to carefully examine the resource implications of any proposed roles envisaged for An Garda Síochána in any new regulatory matters because it is not practical to tie up valuable Garda time and resources with registration issues more appropriate to another body. An Garda Síochána has been given various bureaucratic jobs, such as signing passport forms, which it could well do without and put its time to better use. The Minister also made the point that the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána indicated no identifiable increase in crime as a result of the increase of cash for gold trading but I have to dispute that. I have sat at various community meetings in Dublin Central and at all of those meetings, the point was made that there was an increase in crime. The Commissioner also informed the Minister that cash for gold premises are all visited by the Garda Síochána. Again, I find that very difficult to believe. The Minister made the point that there is a case for tighter requirements, specifically in that sector, focused on the identification of those offering items for sale. There are aspects in Deputy Mattie McGrath's Bill which would cover all of those points.

To go back to the point I made initially, the Friday sitting must be looked at, so it is not just a discussion for the sake of it.

Deputy Joan Collins

Deputy Mattie McGrath put much work into this Bill, which I support, in terms of looking at legislation in other countries, such as in England and in states in the United States of America, to see how they brought in legislation to regulate the area of metal and precious metal.

Between 2009 and 2010, we all saw these cash for gold shops springing up around the city which correlated with the increase in burglaries. If one goes into one's local shop or hairdresser, one will hear who has been robbed, whether the burglars came in the back or the front door, how they must have been watching people's homes and movements for a period of time and how they then used their initiative to move in when the people went out for a bite to eat on a Sunday afternoon or whatever. That is how these burglaries were carried out by the perpetrators.

There has been a move away from theft of televisions, mobile telephones and so on to gold, silver and cash, which are the main target of these burglaries. In 2009 to 2010, we all noticed that the issue was coming up at the joint policing committees. My colleague, Councillor Brid Smith, other Independent councillors and I put down a motion on the regulation of cash for gold shops towards the end of 2010.

The Minister acknowledged the recently launched initiative supporting safer communities. That was in response to the Garda Síochána understanding that there had been an increase in these types of burglaries. The Garda Síochána recommended, through the policing forums, that people should be careful, should not open their doors at night, should ensure their back doors are closed and should check all these things before leaving the house. In a way, it has caused fear among older people, which is a down side to this, but I suppose people feel they must have some sort of protection or be on the alert.

This area must be regulated. Any gold brought in should be photographed and logged for future reference. While the gold may only be in the premises for five or six weeks, it could be checked back on in the longer term.

I refer to the points made about pressure on the Garda Síochána, which is real given the cuts it faces and with which it must deal. An umbrella body could be set up to register these cash for gold businesses which could link in with the Garda Síochána in regard to any new ones which set up in an area. Having the local Garda call to every cash for gold business to check it out is not the way to go because it may close down and sprout somewhere else. If there was an umbrella body to which a business could be affiliated, it would be seen as a legitimate company with which to do business and would be bound by certain regulation. That would be good for that industry in the long run. That body could link in with the local Garda station to let it know where the businesses are, if they close down, etc.

We will find it difficult to deal with cash for gold on the Internet, television, etc., where one posts one's gold to England. That probably needs to be looked at in a European or an international context to see how legislation could be brought in. Debate is taking place internationally currently on how to deal with that issue. I support sections 3 and 4 on the regulatory aspect. There should be photographic evidence of all jewellery brought in.

There are problems with derelict sites on Davitt Road in my constituency. Certain areas were earmarked for development but are now sitting idle. They are turning into derelict sites and are not being secured properly. It falls to the local authorities to secure the sites but that cannot be done regularly because it involves money. Sites on the Davitt Road have been stripped bare of copper and metal. There have been fires on the sites and this has caused problems. Scrap metal companies should be registered under a broader umbrella group so that legitimate companies can be linked in. This measure will tackle the illegitimate companies. Then, we can examine the practice of selling gold internationally.

The Minister referred to the Pawnbrokers Act and the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010, which dealt with matters 50 or 60 years ago. This is a new phenomenon in our society and is linked to the recession and the price of gold and medal. Deputy Finian McGrath referred to communities that worked with recycling and linking them to a new business development. This Bill is necessary and could be amended.

While I fully support Friday sittings, which are a good arena for any Deputy proposing legislation, there should be more support for such Deputies. We should vote on Friday rather than leaving it until Tuesday. It is ridiculous to people in the community, citizens of the State, who see us debating it and know that Deputies do not have to be here and can wait until Tuesday to vote, when they are officially back in the House. It would lend legitimacy to the sitting and it would appear more serious if we had a vote at the end of the sitting.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must ask for brevity because the Minister is speaking at 1 p.m.

Deputy Jack Wall

I propose to share time with Deputies John Maloney and Paschal Donohoe. I support the thrust of the Bill, which is essential. I ask the Minister, who has proved to be a legislative Minister, to look at it. He has said the Bill is poor in certain sections but I am sure that can be addressed and I hope the Minister will be positive in his reply. I attended a meeting last night about the founding of a new community group. One of the aspects mentioned was cash for gold and the problem it creates for rural communities. Deputy Joan Collins referred to the paper trail, which is essential. We must be positive in our overview of the Bill. If it is not to be accepted, we must be positive in addressing the many problems raised. There are too many to go through but they are all relevant to Deputies' constituencies and from a national perspective.

When this matter arose at local level in Kildare, I received calls from genuine traders concerned that they were being associated with traders who are not genuine and who caused problems. The genuine traders wanted legislation to put them on a solid base in order to continue their trade.

At a recent meeting with the IFA, the organisation stressed the major problems with diesel being stolen from tanks and tractors and other vehicles in the farming community. Th IFA is not able to get a reaction to address the problems. In many instances, the diesel is stolen and damage is done to the machines in the process of extraction, which is a further cost to the farming community. I ask that this be brought to the attention of the Garda Síochána through the Minister's office.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

I will exercise the advice of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on brevity and focus on the registration of scrap dealers. We are familiar with the status quo, whereby anyone can walk into a scrap merchant or dealer and instantly trade metals for cash. It can also be done in other jurisdictions. The difficulty is that an unscrupulous element can be attracted and this is happening. That is where the theft issue arises. In his opening remarks, the Minister made clear that, unless the industry is regulated and people must register with scrap merchants, the problem will continue. I have no reason to question how they conduct their business.

Previous speakers referred to difficulties in the UK but these have declined rather than increased in the past year. This has been achieved on the basis of registration. The solution is registration and I agree with the Minister's focus. It will not be solved alternatively.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I welcome the thrust of this legislation because, as the Minister said, we need to regulate the sector better. Regarding crime rates, recent CSO statistics show crime rates are falling across many categories. For example, gun crime has decreased by 6% and public order offences have decreased by 9%. Unfortunately, the exception to the decrease is in crimes against property and burglary. These categories have increased by 3%. I am certain the distribution of these shops has played a role in that increase. In Dublin Central, there was a huge increase in the number of such shops. Their concentration in particular clusters must have had an impact on the incentives provided to people to engage in burglary. These shops provided a means by which some of the items people stole could be disposed of. I am not saying that it happened but that it could have happened. The fact that it was open to people played a role in encouraging activity that we want to stop.

In preparing to speak on this Bill, I looked at some websites. As Deputy Harris told us, one is asked to put whatever one has into an envelope, mail it to an address and, if it is a certain value, the company will provide cash back. It is inevitable that will be exploited for unscrupulous reasons.

I will conclude with my third point, which was made by my colleagues who spoke earlier. There are three elements that would play a vital role in regulating this sector which, as the Minister acknowledged, should be done. First, we need a paper trail on any goods that go into this sector. Second, we need proof of ownership by those who provide precious metals such as gold and jewellery to these shops and bodies. Third, they need to provide identification. These three measures alone would make a big impact in ensuring the sector is better regulated.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Tom Fleming and ask for brevity because there are three more Deputies to speak.

Deputy Tom Fleming

I compliment my colleague, Deputy Mattie McGrath on putting a comprehensive Bill before us and for the fine detail included in it. It took a great deal of time and effort in research and raising the various data with which he has come up. It is a timely Bill. Deputy McGrath has made some logical and rational suggestions and proposals in it.

I also commend all the Deputies who made positive contributions to this debate. I would ask the Minister to take note of them. He might be more receptive to the Bill when he gives it fuller consideration.

There needs to be more co-operation between the Garda and the Revenue and, naturally, with the dealers also coming forward and being transparent in all their transactions. Deputy Finian McGrath mentioned the regulation of this sector and he also looked at the potential for viable businesses. There should be an effort made in this regard, perhaps through the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Perry, who was here earlier. There is a role to be played, perhaps by the new body, Solas, in a general approach to get these persons to legitimise their business and act like everybody in the business community by being tax compliant regarding VAT and regarding all the other matters, such as PRSI, associated with their employees. There is significant potential, if the sector is organised properly. It would be helpful to everybody in society. Perhaps the Government, and the jobs and innovation officials, would take this on board.

This is a serious business for the dealers. There is also the security aspect to the general organisation of their business. For instance, earlier there was mention of scrap yards and their business premises. One important element which should be mandatory in the legislation is the provision of properly maintained CCTV cameras at all stages to record everything moving and everything visible within the business. All such records should be kept for the maximum amount of time possible. I do not know the standards in this regard, but I believe it is 30 days. The video footage should be retained for a lengthy period of time so that it could be examined at any stage. It would be a good monitoring service to have and it should be provided.

Illegal trading and vandalism is endemic in the country and Deputy Harris provided anecdotal evidence of it. He made an excellent contribution to the proposals in the Bill which I take on board. He also made much sense regarding what is happening. On certain weekends, there appears to be an organised spat of crime and there is evidence to show that it is synchronised. This is where we need to have the preventative measures in place and where we need to have the data being looked at by the Garda Síochána. One must cut it off in time before it grows. At this stage, we have enough experience of what can happen if left unchecked.

The Garda Síochána is doing an excellent job within the available resources. However, transport is needed in isolated areas. For some time Garda cars for surveillance and carrying out routine inspections have been removed where the elderly live. These can deter crime before it happens.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Tom Fleming make way for other Deputies.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Whether it is motorbikes, scooters or whatever, we need to give the Garda some methods of transport to help in addressing this problem.

Another matter is verification of the source of all metals. A data bank should be built up. Similarly, there must be a comprehensive exercise in finalising ghost housing estates. There is vandalism happening on a regular basis, with the removal of radiators, copper cylinders, etc., from the houses lying idle in them. There is an onus on local authorities to act given the use of development levies and so on.

It is shameful to see children's playgrounds targeted by these criminals. Almost all children's playgrounds are under local authority control and there is a need to fit CCTV cameras to all of them because the stealing of their equipment has reached epidemic proportions.

I commend the GAA and voluntary organisations for the great fund-raising efforts regarding scrap metal. I believe that is legitimately done and I would encourage it. Perhaps we could work hand-in-hand-----

Deputy Frank Feighan

Is Deputy Mattie McGrath pulling the strings?

Deputy Tom Fleming

-----and promote it further. I thank all speakers for their positive comments.

Deputy Frank Feighan

It is nice to see Deputy Tom Fleming has control over Deputy Mattie McGrath.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy John Paul Phelan is first of the next group. There are only a few minutes between himself and his two colleagues.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I believe I heard the previous contribution referred to as the Scartaglen filibuster. I never thought I would state in the Chamber that I commend Deputy Mattie McGrath on his legislation but I and my colleague, Deputy Deasy, over a year ago, produced a similar Bill which we submitted to the then Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and, if I recall correctly, we got a similar response.

It is good to have a discussion on this issue because in rural as well as urban areas there is much evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to suggest that there are activities going on that should not be occurring not only in regard to precious metals, but also scrap metal in general. I would be anxious about it. I would ask the Minister, in his response, to outline when the forum report might be presented because action needs to be taken in this area.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan mentioned copper wire being taken from telephone lines. In Kilkenny, I am familiar with one particular location in Clara where twice in the past 12 months that has happened. There have been many thefts of trailers from farms. Deputy Wall mentioned the theft of fuel and other belongings.

Certain action has been proposed. Deputy Maloney mentioned registration in the UK and Deputy Donohoe referred to the use of ID, a paper trail and evidence of ownership.

There are many legitimate businesses operating in scrap metal and in precious metals.

The Minister is correct in stating his approach must be targeted, proportionate and balanced and allow those who are operating legitimately to continue to do so. We must ensure there is firm regulation because there has been a great increase in the number of cash for gold dealers. I refer not only to shops, but also to facilities in the mezzanine areas of shopping centres and online facilities, as mentioned by Deputy Donohue.

I support the thrust of the Bill. The Minister might consider introducing ministerial regulations.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank Deputy McGrath for introducing this Bill and I acknowledge the contributions thereon. The Bill deals with a very serious issue that is arising in both rural and urban areas. It is very important that we discuss it. We need to address the ease with which items of monetary and sentimental value can be traded without regulation. That our rail network can be interfered with, creating the potential for very serious health and safety problems, is very serious. Interference with communication lines must stop and there needs to be regulation in this regard. I welcome the update from the Minister on progress on these issues and I hope there will be further progress.

The trade in scrap metal is very lucrative. Recently in my community, the GAA raised approximately €15,000 within a couple of hours when everybody in the community brought their scrap metal to the sports field for collection. An elderly member of the community referred to this as being akin to being in Coventry during the Second World War when there were scrap metal collections for the war effort. The collection in my community raised an enormous amount of money for a sports club. We need to ensure that these efforts will not be jeopardised by future legislation.

I agree with the comments made by Deputy Joe McHugh on the possibility of retrieving copper cables from the seabed around our coastline. There is potential to raise considerable revenue through this endeavour. This has been mentioned in Kerry. Off Valentia, apparently, there is some very valuable copper cabling. Perhaps it is possible for a public private partnership to engage in business in this area.

Perhaps it is possible for there to be a full audit of Departments and local authorities that may have considerable reserves of scrap metal of which they may be unaware and which could generate considerable revenue. This is worth considering. Every means of generating or saving a euro at present is worth considering. When one considers that metal worth €15,000 was collected over the space of a couple of hours, one should note that there must be considerable reserves of scrap metal that could be collected by the public sector and local authorities. Perhaps the revenue from it could fund vital services at local authority level, such as playgrounds and others services in respect of which funding is desperately required.

I thank Deputy McGrath for the effort he has made. It is very important that we are here discussing this matter.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I thank Deputy McGrath for introducing this Bill. We must be very aware that those who laundered fuel and distributed illegal cigarettes over the years are probably the same people who are involved in the very lucrative illegal trade in metal. It is important that businesses that accept jewellery be fully aware of their responsibilities. I agree that gardaí have called to many cash for gold premises and have made the owners aware of their responsibilities. The Bill is very opportune and welcome.

My business was once robbed by a group who stole cigarettes. What they were able to get away with was incredible. They entered in the middle of the day, went behind the counter, took keys for the cigarette store and took approximately 10,000 cigarettes without anybody knowing. When the Garda caught up with them, in a house in Wexford, they discovered the raiders had approximately 120 convictions. They were not from this country. We have enough trouble with the raiders in our own country without these people leaving a trail of destruction behind them. While I welcome the Bill, we must live up to our responsibilities. There should be a paper trail.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

I thank Deputy McGrath for introducing this legislation. We can all agree that the number of thefts of metal has increased since the downturn began. The high cost of copper and other metals has added to the problem. The problem has arisen in my county, County Meath. Late last year, a scrapyard in Kells was raided and there have been burglaries of copper piping in rural houses. In response, the local gardaí are not looking for new legislation to help deal with the rise in thefts. They state their working relationship with the scrapyard owners is good enough to help them with their investigation.

The measures in this Bill do not give the Garda the proper powers to deal with the problems that exist in respect of metal theft. I welcome the Minister's pointing out that he will bring forward necessary measures in consultation with the relevant stakeholders. This is necessary and should be sufficient. However, I thank Deputy McGrath for bringing this important matter before the House today.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank Deputy McGrath for bringing this Bill forward. I detailed all its difficulties but it has been the catalyst for a very good debate in this House today. There has been a wide-ranging debate addressing a broad range of problems, not all directly relevant to the Deputy's Bill but certainly relevant to concerns about different types of criminality across the country.

On the last occasion I was in this House dealing with a Private Members' Bill, I stated I wanted to encourage people to bring forward such Bills. There is no question at all of the Government, or of me as Minister for Justice and Equality, automatically voting down Private Members' Bills. I would like to see the system we have put in place to provide for debates such as this on a Friday succeeding by having Bills proceed to Committee Stage, where possible. I am happy to be of assistance in that regard. Unfortunately, however, the Deputy's Bill does not address properly the issues that he is concerned about. It has substantial flaws to the extent that it would practically have to be replaced and amended in every section. They are areas that it does not address.

Without repeating what was said previously, I must state there is currently a regime, under the pawnbrokers legislation, for recording information about items that may be pawned and the identity of those who furnish those items. It stipulates the records that must be maintained. Deputy McGrath's Bill would have provisions applied specifically to pawnbrokers, who comprise one of the issues in this area. This creates problems in the areas about which I talked. I am sure it was not the Deputy's intention to create them. The Bill has an impact upon, but does not deal properly with, legitimate trade that has been conducted by jewellers and antique dealers for decades, and it does not deal with the sorts of circumstances to which Deputy Griffin referred whereby scrap metal was used to raise funds for a local club. The Bill does not deal properly with these issues and there is no point in my pretending it does.

The Bill was published by the Deputy without any prior consultation with my Department. If the Bill had been furnished to us in draft from, I would have been happy to provide some assistance to the Deputy and would have asked my officials to do so.

We are addressing this area. A report I hope to publish in the not-too-distant future will detail some of the information contained in the speech I delivered today and I hope it will set out where we intend to head in addressing the various issues that arise. This requires a type of consultative process, one in which I believe Deputy Mattie McGrath did not engage with some of the areas of business to which I referred. He may have done so but it is unlikely that occurred because, if it had, the legislation brought forward by him would have been framed differently.

Neither does his legislation provide all the necessary assistance to the Garda it requires. Without necessarily focusing on it, there are specific offences, for example, under the 1964 Pawnbrokers Act, which if brought up to date and provided in the context of legislation addressing the broader issues the Deputy seeks to address, would be of help in where we head to. There are difficulties and anomalies with the overall approach taken by the Deputy in the Bill which could cause problems for other retail outlets with which I do not believe he intended to interfere.

The debate has been useful in that issues have been raised that are of direct relevance to this area. For example, one provision in the Deputy's Bill which I would like to give further consideration to is in the context of a photographic recording of jewellery exchanged in cash for gold stores, antique stores or general jewellery stores. A picture could be taken of an item and a record retained rather than retaining an item for 30 days. This is a simple procedure and not as complex as it would have been many years ago.

Another interesting issue raised by some Deputies concerned certain types of outlets or retail operations having CCTV records and introducing a statutory requirement for this record to be retained. However, an issue of concern in this respect is that unnecessary expenses may be imposed on legitimate businesses that have operated for many years. There are issues to be addressed in the context of ensuring matters are properly dealt with.

Using the pawnbroker legislation as an example, if suspicion arises over goods provided to a pawnbrokers because the individual attempting to pawn goods will not provide background information, as required under the legislation; the pawnbroker has suspicions about the origins of the goods; or the pawnbroker received information about stolen goods from the Garda Síochána and these goods matched this description, the pawnbroker is under statutory obligation to make active contact with and engage the Garda. There is a whole range of issues not addressed in Deputy Mattie McGrath's legislation.

Deputy Joan Collins raised an important issue of advances in technology such as Internet trading of jewellery which does not require the existence of any retail outlet. It can all be done on the web by inviting people to post items to a particular address and one does not need a retail shop or outlet of the nature envisaged that we see on some of our main streets. How can one deal with this and ensure records are kept? Should it be made extra territorium because dealing with issues on the web in this context is not confined to people who post notices in Ireland, are based in Ireland and are necessarily trading in Ireland? There are issues here which impact on the discrete area of cash for gold even though the Deputy’s Bill has broader application than that.

I have already made mention of the work done in the area of scrap metal. This will also fall under the aegis of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. It will be necessary that he feed into legislation in this area.

Deputy Wall, as well as others, raised the issue of diesel being stolen. The Garda is conscious of this and has had some success in this area. It falls outside the content of this Bill, however. The reality is that for as long as one has human beings intent on dishonesty, there will always be individuals who will have no respect for other people's rights or ownership of property and who will engage in criminality. It does not matter how much legislation we pass in this House, we will not eliminate criminality in its totality. There is adequate legislation in place for dealing with the stealing of diesel. What is needed is that people inform the Garda of events that occur which it will investigate with the professionalism that rests within the force.

It is correct, as mentioned, that prior to the last election some of my colleagues in Fine Gael were bringing forward a Bill to deal with the same issue Deputy Mattie McGrath sought to address today. The area is complex and needs to be dealt with in a manner which works. We do not want a simply decorative Bill which does not give the Garda meaningful new powers. There is a need to maintain reasonable records in this area but it must be done in a manner in which individuals who do not maintain records are guilty of an offence. There is also a need to have a mechanism to ensure the Garda is informed where an individual is alerted to another attempting to sell on stolen goods. We must also ensure such legislation does not waste Garda resources with the force taking on an administrative task which does not assist in front line policing and could better rest elsewhere.

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for giving all sides of the House the opportunity to debate this issue today. I assure the House that any new measure required to address the difficulties discussed will be brought forward.

One Deputy cast some doubt on the truthfulness of what I said about the assurance given to me by the Garda that it has visited every cash for gold retail outlet in the State. It might be understandable if some outlet opened in the past several weeks that it has not visited yet. However, I have been assured that in very explicit terms those in charge of these outlets are aware of the legislation concerning receiving stolen goods, to use the old parlance of criminal law, the seriousness of receiving stolen goods and the criminal consequences of that. I am told also the Revenue Commissioners have taken whatever steps necessary to ensure the records of these outlets are properly maintained and taxation matters are properly dealt with and addressed.

I thank Deputies for this constructive debate. I assure Members on all sides of the House that I listened carefully to it. I had to leave the House briefly to deal with a matter but I ensured I had the monitor on in the background and did not miss any major portion of the debate. Having considered today's debate and the issues raised and having factored them into the report we are working on I hope to subsequently publish the report, and then in consultation with colleagues in Government, to bring forward appropriate legislation to address any gap that currently exists in the law in this area.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Minister and all Members who contributed in the previous three hours of debate. The debate has been constructive. I am heartened by the support from Members in my group, on the Fianna Fáil benches, Sinn Féin, other Independents and especially the Minister's own backbenches. The Minister seems to have a problem with what was said and that I am making things up to be colourful. He referred to the Bill as a decorative one. I resent that. During the debate I received an e-mail which states:

Dear Mr. McGrath, I write to you on behalf of a group representing telecommunications operators in Ireland. The group includes Three, Vodafone, O2, Meteor, RTÉ, TETRA Ireland [which is very important as it relates to the emergency services], the ESB and telecoms. The group has also received submissions from the Irish Aviation Authority, the Defence Forces, Camp East-West ambulance services, Imagine Broadband, Digiweb and Airspeed.

I could read what the groups have to say, but they are very concerned for the safety of the public and the security of the State.

The Minister must wake up and listen to what is being said. It is not Mattie McGrath's Bill. The Minister must listen to his backbenchers. When I introduced the Bill, I admitted that it was not a perfect document. I am disappointed with the Minister's comments on the Bill. I am a relatively new Deputy. I am a Member for approximately four years.

I acknowledged that the Government has made provision for Friday sittings of the Dáil. The Minister has the entire power of his Department to research matters. I am aghast at the Minister on the basis of written replies he made to parliamentary questions recently. He said he was surprised that I did not bother to check the 1964 Pawnbrokers Act. I asked a parliamentary question of the Minister, which is a fundamental right of Members of this House, and he never mentioned the Pawnbrokers Act 1964 in his glossy reply.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

How was I supposed to know if the Minister did not know? I charge the Minister with being reckless and sending back silly replies to people without even reading or understanding the question.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I honestly mean that.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I gave the Deputy a considered reply.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister did not give me a considered reply. He never mentioned the Pawnbrokers Act.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak through the Chair.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

How was I to know?

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is unfortunate that Deputy Mattie McGrath always has to descend to abuse.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister might be too busy looking after his legal entitlements to look after his job. He sits in the Chamber and makes snide remarks every day. The Ceann Comhairle does not see him because he does not move.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Deputy McGrath is like the new grumpy old hen on "The Muppet Show".

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He makes mealy-mouthed remarks to colleagues across the floor on this side of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath should speak through the Chair.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am appalled at the Minister.

Deputy Alan Shatter

On a point of order, perhaps the Deputy would resume his seat during the point of order. I dealt, Sir, in a considered way with the Deputy's Bill.

Deputy Tom Fleming

No, the Minister did not.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I do not think it appropriate for the Deputy to denigrate this Chamber by engaging-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

That is not a point of order.

Deputy Alan Shatter

-----in abuse. I ask him to withdraw the allegation that I was mealy-mouthed.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is not a point of order. That is another challenge.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I ask him to withdraw the allegation in any shape or form that I was mealy-mouthed. If the Deputy had approached my Department with a draft Bill before publishing it he would have got every assistance in his preparation.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Hear, hear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy cannot avoid theatrics.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

This is not theatrics. The Minister is good at theatrics himself.

Deputy Frank Feighan

The Dáil Chamber is not "The Muppet Show".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Could we return to the Bill?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am on the Bill. The Minister's point was not a point of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Okay. Deputy McGrath should speak on the Bill. We have a limited amount of time.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

While he welcomed the process of putting a Bill together, the Minister denigrated our abilities. He said we did not have this, that and the other thing. I co-operated with the Bills Office. At the outset today I thanked the office for its co-operation and help. I understood that it would circulate the Bill to the Minister. I am sure it did submit it to the Department.

Deputy Alan Shatter

No, it did not.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

If it did not then it is not my fault. I submitted it to the Bills Office, properly ordered and separated in sections. Members of staff in the office were very helpful to me. I understood that they would pass it on but if they did not I cannot apologise for them. I take exception to the Minister-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have had a constructive debate so far, the Deputy should please keep it that way.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We did not. We did until the Minister intervened. He is not listening to his backbenchers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Okay.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I hope it will be raised at the next parliamentary party meeting.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak on the Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We saw from the e-mail to which I referred that it is a major problem for national security and the safety of lives. It is not a question of me being decorative or anything else.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I admit it is a humble effort from me to introduce it as a backbencher with the support of my colleagues. We had a good discussion on the Bill, except for what the Minister said at the outset, to which he returned a second time in making his concluding remarks.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak on the Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is his form. He spends most days shouting obscenities across the floor under the radar of the Ceann Comhairle who does not even see him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath must not refer to the Ceann Comhairle.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You could be in the Chamber some days also, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The remarks are deadly, they are well-aimed, directed and piercing. The Minister should learn a small bit himself. He is longer in this House than I am.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath must speak on the Bill.

Deputy Joe Carey

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I compliment Deputy Harris and Deputy John Paul Phelan on what they said. I was not aware that they had submitted a similar Bill to the Minister more than a year ago. I am not sure of the date. Why was something not done in that regard?

Deputy Alan Shatter

It was submitted to the previous Government.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Deputy McGrath was a member of a party that was in the previous Government. It ignored the Bill and Deputy McGrath supported that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is good. That is not a problem. I acknowledge that. I was not sure of the date. I also submitted parliamentary questions to the then Minister, Mr. Dermot Ahern. We did not have Friday sittings then. I acknowledged the Government for having Friday sittings. I did not have that facility during the previous Government. I wished the Government well in its endeavours.

The previous Minister promised me the sun, moon and stars. He said the same as the Minister did today, that the Garda Commissioner was examining the issue. The Garda Commissioner does not have the resources to deal with the issue, as Deputy Tom Fleming indicated. That is something in which the Minister should be more interested. I met a Garda inspector at a function last Sunday. He told me that some of his officers are now walking because they do not have cars because of a silly arrangement - perhaps it was before the Minister's time - with the officials in the Department that Garda cars must be put off the road after reaching 300,000 miles. Surely such cars could be given an NCT or DOE test like anyone's car and if they pass they could continue to do routine patrol work if not high-speed chases. This is another farcical situation from the mandarins in the Department. The problem might have been due to Ford Ireland, which had the contract to supply the cars but then lost it. I do not know nor do I care but I do not want to see members of the Garda reduced to walking around the constituency. It might be acceptable in the Minister's constituency or in any city area but not in the country because gardaí need the tools of the trade and they must be empowered to do their job. We are trying to help them by introducing legislation, not decorative legislation.

The Minister could not have picked a more ignorant word to describe the Bill. Decorative items are being stolen, which we mentioned, from Holy Cross Abbey and that wonderful monument to the dead in County Laois. Those artefacts are decorative and were made by craftspeople but the legislation is not decorative. I ask the Minister to withdraw the word "decorative" in connection with the Bill because while it could be described as sensitive or necessary it is certainly not decorative.

I challenge the Minister to check on the replies he gave to my parliamentary questions. He asserted that I should know about pawnbrokers' legislation but never once when I asked the Minister about the matter in parliamentary questions did he refer to such legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tá dhá nóiméad fágtha.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

No, my time was taken. I did not start when I was supposed to speak. I have five or six minutes remaining.

Deputy Joe Carey

The order of the House today is that the Bill will conclude at 1.30 p.m.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am looking at the clock.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I looked at it too. I asked you earlier, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, what was the rush and you said the Minister had to contribute. I said that was fine.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I want my time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath will get his time.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Deputy Catherine Murphy referred to the fact that in his day, the then Minister, Mr. Michael McDowell, introduced amendments to a Bill that amounted to five or six times the size of the original Bill. I have no problem with that. I conceded at the outset and during my contribution that I was not totally in charge of everything, nor did I want to be. It is my effort on my behalf with the support of my colleagues and staff to put forward in my humble and best opinion a way to deal with the problem. I was open to amendments. The Minister could have accepted the Bill and referred it to committee. He could have made all the amendments in the world to it.

The Minister indicated that he thought I might be overly protective or upset at changes but that is the last thing I would wish to do. I tried to achieve a balance. I consulted widely and to the best of my ability. Some of the people contacted me. I referred to some of the groups. I do not have the PR spin doctors and researchers that are available to the Minister. Under the auspices of the legal services Act he has appointed his friends to a number of quangos. He created 49 jobs in one hour. He should replace the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, because he is quite enterprising when it comes to his friends in the legal service. He has done well from the legal service - more power to him. However, one must be sympathetic to ordinary people who are trying to avail of legal services too. It is not law and justice for the rich, the system must be fair to everyone.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Deputy Mattie McGrath did well out of council contracts as well.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath should speak on the Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They were all part of a publicly tendered process. It was not cash under the table, over the table or on top of the table.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Could we return to the Bill?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am speaking on the Bill. I thank the community organisation, Muintir na Tíre-----

Deputy Alan Shatter

On a point of order-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister is wasting my time. What point of order does he wish to raise? I will take more time if the Minister stops me speaking.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Is the Deputy accusing anyone of getting cash under the table?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I said, "or over the table".

Deputy Alan Shatter

Who is the Deputy accusing?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Anyone. The cash dealers. If the cap fits, anyone who wears it.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy would want to make it clear that he is not making a reference to me.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Of course. Scrap dealers or anyone else the cap fits. They do not need to have their hair nice and permed either.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Will the Deputy withdraw his insinuation-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am not making that insinuation.

Deputy Alan Shatter

-----that I have received cash under or over any table?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I never said any such thing, nor would I.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy is a disgrace to the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope that Deputy Mattie McGrath did not make such a remark.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I did not nor would I. I said that people receiving cash under or over the table-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy only has four minutes remaining.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister interrupted me again. He might not like the pie in the pudding. We must continue. We cannot receive honest written replies to parliamentary questions on the pawnbrokers legislation. The Minister pilloried me for not referring to that legislation. He should spend more time researching his replies to parliamentary questions and making them factual instead of getting his officials to write them.

I mentioned a number of groups, including GAA clubs. My club used the disposal of scrap as a wonderful way to fund-raise. The Government has cut the grants to every club and they must resort to scraping everything together to try to survive. I support their legitimate work.

Deputy Alan Shatter

They could not do it if the Deputy's Bill was enacted.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I do not have the Minister's resources. I am not saying my Bill is perfect. I admitted that from the start. I was open to amendments from any party. Indeed, I had many discussions in recent weeks with Members from various parties who suggested they were interested in this issue. They showed their interest through their presence today and their contributions.

I am not saying that the Bill is perfect by any means, but I was open to amendments and would have loved to have brought the Bill to Committee Stage to add, subtract and make changes. We could have sought legal advice and the Department's resources might have been put at our disposal. If that is what the Minister is now saying, I am surprised that no one told me earlier.

The ESB has cost the Garda a fortune. In my constituency, a list needed to be put together of every ESB substation and power station and regular Garda patrols carried out. No wonder Garda car mileages are high. They are going around the country watching and trying to secure these stations. It is a problem, but the Minister does not understand the gravity of the situation. There has been an explosion in the cash for gold and scrap metal sectors. Legitimate traders are being pilloried because of rogue activities.

The Minister stated that it was poor of me not to have included powers of entry. Revenue, the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, and many other bodies have the power to enter my property or any other business property. It goes without saying. I did not need to restate what are standard powers. If the Garda suspects something, it can get a search warrant signed by a peace commissioner. I am one. The Minister must think we are right clowns. This provision is already in primary and secondary legislation. He knows it better than I do because of his profession. I am not legally minded.

I am disappointed. This was an honest chance. The issue is a serious one. People are struggling to survive. A person's home is that person's castle, but it can be devastated. There will be more burglaries tonight and during the weekend. I am not blaming the Minister for them. This Bill was an effort to cut out the racket and get rid of the cowboys. Dozens of jewellers have contacted me. They are delighted by the legislation. They cannot operate because the cowboys are giving them a bad name. Members on the Minister's side of the House made this point as well.

This is the third Bill tabled by the Technical Group, all of which have been rejected. I understand that some were rejected for financial reasons, but no financial reason was given for rejecting this legislation. It was not meant to be a catch-all Bill, but a genuine effort to stimulate debate. We have had an excellent debate and could have had many more hours of debate on Committee and Remaining Stages. I hope my Bill can be subsumed into the Minister's. It is for him to step up to the plate. The last Minister promised this review would be finished. The current Minister has been in office for a year. He promised that the forum's report would be ready by the end of March. I will hold him to account month after month and, if I can, day after day. It is up to him to legislate. He should not claim that the Garda has enough powers because it does not. I am a member of three or four joint policing committees, JPCs, in my constituency as well as the county's JPC. Community groups, lay representatives and councillors agree that the Garda does not have the power.

This racket is being abused because the value of gold and scrap has increased. The matter is complex, but it should not be beyond the Minister to take the Bill away, dissect it with his officials, consult his colleagues and engage with groups. I will send the details of the group that e-mailed me today to the Minister if he does not mind. He might engage with it. The security of our State is at stake - these are not my words, but the group's, and I will send the e-mail to the Minister directly - because of the danger to, for example, aviation. Nothing is safe or sacred. If people are willing to steal from the church at Holycross and damage aviation and overhead lines, it is the Government's responsibility. It entered into power like the cool, clean hero and the Minister was the man with the legal experience. Protect the ordinary people. They should be allowed to live in their homes in safety. He should stand with the community groups and local organisations and give the Garda the necessary tools to deal with gangsters and marauding thugs. It is incumbent on him to do so. The people voted for the Government to do it. They voted for us to do our bit as well.

The House will vote the Bill down next Tuesday, but I may not be here because my son is making his confirmation. My colleagues will be here.

Deputy Frank Feighan

He will not get the €300. It is gone.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What €300?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not know to what Deputy Feighan is referring. Deputy Mattie McGrath's time has concluded.

Deputy Finian McGrath

On a point of order, Deputy Feighan should withdraw his remark about €300. It was disgraceful.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not know what it was about.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Ask him. I do not know what it was about either.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy Mattie McGrath please conclude?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I want the comment withdrawn. What €300?

Deputy Frank Feighan

I will not withdraw it. It was not-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What?

Deputy Frank Feighan

People got €300-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You are a disgrace, Frankie. I am disgusted by you.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is enough, Deputies.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister called me a disgrace. Did Deputy Feighan say that I was looking for €300 for my son's confirmation? I do not know what he meant. Go back to Roscommon, Frankie, and talk to people about the hospital. How dare you?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, Please.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Sorry. I meant "Deputy Feighan".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I know. Deputy Feighan should talk to the people to whom he gave a solemn promise that he would fight for his hospital.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

At least his colleague had the manners and guts to stand up for it.

Deputy Frank Feighan

The hospital is open and my constituents-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I know how emotional the turf issue has been for Deputy Feighan. I would not have said that, but he insulted me. I ask the Minister and Deputies on the Government side to vote with their feet next Tuesday.

Question put.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In accordance with Standing Order No. 117A(4), the division is postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 6 March 2012.

The Dáil adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2012.