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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 2012

Vol. 759 No. 2

Order of Business

It is proposed to take No. 12a, Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill 2012 - Financial Resolution; No. 3, Clotting Factor Concentrates and Other Biological Products Bill 2012 - Order for Second Stage and Second and Remaining Stages; and No. 20, Criminal Justice (Female Genital Mutilation) Bill 2011 - Order for Report Stage, Report and Final Stages. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and Private Members' business shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 107 minutes; and No. 12a shall be decided without debate.

In regard to the sitting of the Dáil on Thursday, 15 March, oral questions will not be taken, matters may not be raised under the provisions of Standing Order 32, Topical Issues may not be raised under the provisions of Standing Order 27A, business shall be interrupted no later than 1.30 p.m. and the Dáil, on its rising, shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 21 March 2012.

Private Members' business shall be No. 47, motion re lending rates and arrangements (resumed), to conclude after 107 minutes tonight if not previously concluded.

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12a agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed to?

No. I accept that St. Patrick's Day is an important and valuable opportunity for the promotion of Ireland internationally. I also welcome the fact that-----

And fund-raising.

(Interruptions).

Deputy McDonald without interruption, please.

I am not sure that the Taoiseach is engaging in fund-raising, but he might inform us to the contrary.

(Interruptions).

I also welcome the fact that Thursday provides an opportunity for the debate on the barbaric practice of symphysiotomy. We have been pressing for this debate for some time. However, there is a problem with the Dáil sitting when no Ministers are present and there is no opportunity for oral questions, Topical Issues or votes. One must question the value of such a sitting. Surely some Ministers will be in the country to step into the breach and make themselves available to answer questions tomorrow.

As I understand it, a number of Ministers will be present tomorrow and available to answer questions.

Does that mean that ministerial questions will be taken?

Let the fund-raising continue.

A Deputy

We will be plucking the shamrock.

Question, "That the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow be agreed to," put and declared carried.

One could say that I am in search of clarity and certainty on a number of issues this morning.

Deputy Martin is wasting his time.

I am getting none so far. Regarding the forthcoming fiscal compact treaty and the legislation that is required to facilitate it, it is fair to say at this stage that, in the context of the entire constitutional reform programme, there is an absence-----

(Interruptions).

Will Deputy Martin hold on one moment, please? Will Deputies please allow the leader of their party to speak? We will get to everyone if people are patient. Could we have some order, please? I can assure Deputy Boyd Barrett that I can see him.

Can the Ceann Comhairle see me?

You, too. Will the Deputies allow Deputy Martin speak?

To whom was I referring?

The Ceann Comhairle stated, "You, too".

I apologise. Deputy Martin should proceed.

In terms of the constitutional reform programme, there seems to be an absence of any clarity or certainty from the Government. My question relates to the legislation to facilitate the referendum on the fiscal compact treaty. Yesterday, the Taoiseach was not in a position to answer the question on whether the legislation to establish the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, would be introduced before the fiscal compact treaty legislation.

We have a related situation in respect of the fiscal responsibility Bill. We have a situation in respect of the legislation to give rise to constitutional referendums on the Seanad and children's rights, which have been promised by the Government. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, has been adamant all year that the children's rights referendum will be held this year. During the course of one Question Time after another since entering into office, the Taoiseach has been adamant and categoric that the referendum to abolish the Seanad will be held this year. Arising from his reply yesterday, it now seems that this might not be the case and that we might have a Seanad referendum next year, if we are to have one at all.

To respect the House, it is about time that we be given a timeline on constitutional reform. The Government's proposals on the constitutional convention are underwhelming. On the face of it, it is farcical to suggest that, after bringing 100 people together, the first two items on their agenda would be to decide whether the voting age should be reduced from 18 years to 17 years and whether the presidential term should be reduced from seven years to five years. The Government does not need to bring 100 people together to decide on those two issues.

In terms of referendums on and fundamental reforms of various constitutional provisions, the Taoiseach needs to bring greater clarity to what his Government intends to lay before the House and the people during its lifetime. This situation is incoherent. There is no certainty around what will occur and when. Will the Government lay before the House a clear timeline for its objectives?

This is about promised legislation. In regard to the Government's programme, it is very clear that there will be two referenda held - one in respect of child protection, the other in respect of the abolition of the Seanad - outside the remit of the constitutional convention. In setting up the constitutional convention, the Government is anxious that this will work properly and that the structure will work properly. For that reason, the drafting of primary legislation to give effect to being able to call citizens from the register of electors to involve themselves in the citizens' constitutional convention is what we have to consider. To see that it works properly, two issues should be chosen in the first instance. The question of a reflection on the length of the presidential period of service and the question on reducing the voting age will allow us to see whether the structure works effectively. If it does, fine. If it does not, we will make changes before it moves on to the other elements that are mentioned in the programme for Government as being for consideration by the constitutional convention.

I put together a memo for Government. The Government discussed it and then asked the representatives of the different parties to attend a meeting. They were very good and made a number of suggestions. I invited them to send in written submissions and said that we would meet again before I finalised this and brought it back to Government and that we would go ahead with the constitutional convention.

When we set out this timeline, the question of a referendum on the fiscal stability pact was never mentioned because the deliberations had not taken place at European level. The Attorney General has informed the Government formally and we are getting on with the process of putting that in train. This is of primary importance in the sense of our country's future and our economic well being.

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is preparing the legislation in respect of children's issues and I do not want to set a date for either a referendum on child protection or for the abolition of Seanad until I know that everything is right and proper to have that determined.

The Taoiseach already did.

The Taoiseach's Ministers did that already.

When we said that we would like to have them in the first 12 months, no one was aware of the discussions that would follow through from Europe and that we would have a referendum in respect of the fiscal stability treaty. That is the first referendum that is going to be held.

The Taoiseach stated it as recently as one month ago.

That was three weeks ago.

There are 12 months in the year.

My view - I need to talk to Deputy Martin and others about it - is that we need to reflect seriously on whether we can hold a referendum on its own or with another in future. In my view, the child protection referendum is sensitive, in which there are different arguments and which should be held on its own, as should the question regarding the abolition of the Seanad. I think the Deputy can agree with that. Whatever recommendations the constitutional convention may make in respect of the presidential period of service, the reduction in the voting age or the other issues, at least it requires a definitive answer from the Government on them. In other words, if it recommends that the presidential period should be reduced from seven to five years, the Government will make a decision either agreeing with it or not. We will not have a situation where the constitutional convention, hopefully working effectively, will not make a series of recommendations that are never referred to or acted on.

I would like to deal with the process of the current referendum. The Minister is preparing legislation for the child protection referendum and the preparations are ongoing in respect of the abolition of the Seanad. I will speak to the Leaders about that. I have prepared a memorandum for Government and I will bring it there in due course.

Will the Taoiseach publish a realistic indicative timeline? The referendum on the fiscal compact treaty clearly has to take place. We need to know whether it will then be possible to hold the referendum on children's rights and when that will be held, and then there is the referendum on the Seanad. The Taoiseach has an opportunity to include the Seanad issue in the remit of the constitutional convention. It would be logical to do so if we were serious about a fundamental and radical look at our political system.

We cannot have a debate.

The Taoiseach said he was up for that.

Numerous Deputies are asking to contribute.

I just want a timeline on all three.

In regard to the latter matter mentioned by the Deputy referred, the programme for Government states clearly that a referendum will be held on abolition of the Seanad. I will certainly give him a timeline but I want to be clear that it can be adhered to. This is why I have not set out dates or months. The legislation on child protection has to pass through the Houses and, as he will be aware, the all-party committee went from a position of broad difference to one of agreement on a form of wording that was rejected by the then Attorney General. It is not an issue on which one can say "I expect to have this by date X" and then discover that people cannot agree on sensitive issues.

The Government has indicated the timeline.

When I get clarity I will publish the timeline and tell the House and everybody else.

The Minister said it take place this year. That is why I am asking.

It is not that easy.

Confusion arose yesterday in respect of two items of legislation, namely, the treaty to establish the European stability mechanism Bill and the European Communities (amendment) Bill. Given the scale and significance of the European stability mechanism and the massive financial contribution of more than €11 billion we will be required to make if we sign up to it, has the Taoiseach sought the advice of the Attorney General on the constitutionality of the treaty and the amendment to the European treaty on which it is based? Given that ratification of the treaty requires amendment of Article 136 of the European treaty, is it his intention to bring the two Bills before the Dáil prior to the referendum on the austerity treaty?

The three heads of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill were approved by the Government on 13 December 2011 and are scheduled for implementation this session. The treaty establishing the European stability mechanism Bill, which will enable Ireland to ratify the treaty establishing the European stability mechanism, is also scheduled for this session.

Given the speedy passage of the final stages of the Finance Bill 2012, the Dáil may have to suspend during the course of today because the schedule as originally set down-----

Sorry Deputy, a significant number of Deputies wish to contribute. I am aware that we will have time but what is the Deputy's question?

I have only started.

It should be about promised legislation.

I ask whether another matter of public interest may be debated to fill the time.

That is not on the Order of Business. It is a matter for the Whips.

It is on the Order of Business today.

It s not on the Order of Business. It is a matter for the Whips to decide.

I have made the request. I would like to have a debate on housing if that is at all possible.

I suggest the Deputy get in touch with his Whip.

Given what many of us regard as the humiliation of this country and its Government in the aftermath of the Spanish derogation on its deficit targets, can the Taoiseach use the Order of Business to stiffen our negotiating position?

That is not on the Order of Business.

It is on the Order of Business. I have not yet finished.

I ask the Deputy to make his point on the Order of Business.

I ask the Taoiseach to announce that the legislation-----

The Deputy is not listening to me.

-----dealing with the European stability mechanism and the European Communities (amendment) Bill will be introduced subsequent to the treaty. That would send a clear message to the European authorities that we will not allow them to put a gun to our head -----

Fourteen Deputies wish to speak during the 13 minutes remaining in the Order of Business.

Will the Taoiseach give his commitment that the legislation on the European stability mechanism will not be introduced before the referendum to ensure a gun is not put to the head of the people during the referendum campaign?

I do not accept the Deputy's comment about humiliation. The Spanish Government has to comply with the reduction to 3% by 2013. Ireland was given an extra year to the end of 2015. As I have pointed out to Deputy Martin, we also negotiated a serious reduction in interest rates which led to the equivalent of €10 billion in savings for the Irish taxpayer, as well as a number of other elements within the memorandum of understanding which are of particular interest to lower paid workers in this country. I replied to Deputy Adams in respect of the European stability mechanism and the amendment to the European Communities Act 1972. From that point of view we will proceed with the preparations for a referendum on the fiscal stability treaty and the Government will further progress that work at its next meeting.

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Resume your seat.

If the Taoiseach could indicate which comes first, it would make a major difference to the context in which the referendum will be held. Can he not tell us which comes first?

What legislation allows the Minister for Justice and Equality to close down Army barracks around the country, including Clonmel?

Deputy, please.

There is no location to train the FCA.

How often do I have to tell the Deputy we are dealing with promised legislation?

Is there promised legislation that he is not -----

Is there promised legislation in respect of the closure of Army barracks?

I suggest that the Deputy should table a question or Topical Issue matter.

Deputy Mattie McGrath will not get an answer.

Legislation is not required in respect of the closure of an Army barracks.

I call Deputy Grealish.

What about the ones that were closed 15 or 16 years ago? Deputy Mattie McGrath said nothing about them.

Deputy Durkan was here then.

Allow Deputy Grealish to speak.

Will the Government propose legislation to deal with the liquidation sales that are costing the Exchequer and local authorities millions of euro and which are having a serious effect on retail businesses? Companies are coming in from the United Kingdom and using derelict buildings without securing proper fire certificates or paying rates. I ask the Taoiseach to bring forward legislation to control these activities, which take place every weekend.

That is against Progressive Democrats policy.

The Deputy should raise the matter as a Topical Issue because it does not involve promised legislation.

No legislation has been promised but I will ask the Minister for Finance to respond to Deputy Grealish's inquiry.

In regard to the European Communities (amendment) Bill, a number of Ministers have already warned that we will have to sign up to the treaty to avail of the European stability mechanism. The Taoiseach has an opportunity to decide against putting this legislation before the House. He does not have to agree to the proposed amendment of Article 136. Will the Taoiseach refuse to bring this legislation in order to carry through the logic of his Ministers' arguments?

No, I will not. I have already said to Deputy Adams, the leader of the Deputy's party, that his party is opposed to Europe. We propose to deal with the Bill to amend the European Communities Act 1972 in this session.

We have only ten minutes left. I call Deputy McGuinness.

Does the Taoiseach agree that he has a veto on this matter?

I have called Deputy McGuinness.

I am telling the Deputy that we will do it in this session.

The microphone should be switched off. I have called Deputy McGuinness.

A Deputy

He did not say that.

A Deputy

The Deputy should not be putting words into his mouth.

I wish to ask about three pieces of legislation. I understand that the first part of the companies Bill has been completed and a second part is to be prepared. When will we see the second part of that Bill? When are we likely to debate the Bill given that it has approximately 1,300 sections? Given the complexity of the Bill we should be given plenty of time to debate it.

There are two Bills: the companies (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, which has 20 heads; and the companies Bill which has more than 1,270 heads. The heads of that Bill were approved on 25 July 2007. It is expected to be published later this year. It is an enormous Bill. The companies (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, which deals with the extension to 2020 the period for which companies can present their accounts in accordance with American generally accepted accounting principles, will also be published later this year.

Given that the companies Bill has approximately 1,300 sections can the relevant committee debate it in order to provide an input? As it is such complex legislation, it would be worthwhile for the House to have a debate on it.

Will the Minister review SI 99 relating to the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 as it giving rise to serious difficulty with inspections by NERA, in particular with regard to apprentices to hairdressers and barbers? It is causing considerable distress in that sector and will cause difficulty for those who are serving their apprenticeships on the basis of the practice that has grown up regarding the serving of that time. NERA does not acknowledge the apprenticeship and therefore there will be problems for those engaged in the apprenticeship and their employers.

Sorry, Deputy-----

Can the Taoiseach give a guarantee that this legislation will be reviewed immediately and that any pending cases will be withdrawn?

We cannot debate the issue. When is the legislation due?

In respect of the companies Bill with 1,270 heads, which was approved in July 2007, I am sure the Minister would value the input of the committee in this regard and I will have him respond to the Deputy on that issue. SI 99 will require secondary legislation and we will get back to the Deputy on that.

Come on, Deputy. We have six minutes and approximately-----

It is impossible for the House to debate the legislation that established the special investigations unit in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine.

That is not for the Order of Business.

Currently, the unit-----

It is not for the Order of Business. I must move on.

-----is closing down legitimate businesses-----

I call Deputy Sean Fleming.

-----and challenging them in a very unfair way.

We cannot debate these issues on the Order of Business.

I would ask-----

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

I ask that we debate that legislation again with a view to amending it or-----

We do not talk about that. We deal with promised legislation.

-----that the Minister would get involved-----

I ask the Deputy to co-operate and resume his seat.

-----in the difficulties businesses are having with that unit-----

-----because it is destroying businesses at this stage.

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Does the Deputy mean from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine?

Sorry, Taoiseach, if he is out of order, he is out of order.

In light of the difficulties facing many viable but vulnerable businesses owing to cash-flow difficulties, primarily as a result of not being paid-----

I ask the Deputy to cut out the preliminaries.

I will be the quickest person to ask a question in this Chamber this morning.

I thank the Deputy.

Given that the banks are not extending credit and people are not being paid for work carried out, when will we see the legislation dealing with payment to contractors for work being carried out?

As far as I know that is ready and it is a matter of bringing it into the House. This has been asked by a number of Deputies. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, did extensive work on the matter and I understand it is a question of the Whips making arrangements to introduce it. It is an important issue.

I wish to ask about two matters. This time last year we were promised a major road traffic Bill to include provision for the graduated driver licence, clamping and road safety issues. Does the Taoiseach ever remind the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to stick to the knitting? We have been awaiting this legislation for a long time.

I thank the Deputy.

I have a second very brief question. When the Taoiseach walked into his office yesterday, he may have come across the people from Priory Hall.

Now Deputy-----

They are awaiting an announcement from the Taoiseach or the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan.

I thank the Deputy.

I know he is meeting people who are involved in the pyrite issue this morning. Is it possible finally to bring forward a solution to this incredible problem on the north side of Dublin?

Not on the Order of Business.

The road traffic Bill is due this session. I got some further correspondence from the residents of Priory Hall. As the Deputy knows, the Supreme Court case is due to be heard on 24 April and I cannot interfere with that process. I am aware of the obvious interest of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the contacts that are ongoing between Dublin City Council officials and residents. This is a terrible situation. As the Deputy will understand, I cannot interfere with the judicial process, which is due for hearing on 24 April. These people deserve to have their homes restored to them to allow them to get on with their lives. I am completely constrained until the court case is heard.

I thank the Deputy.

I wish to ask about four Bills: the Solas Bill, the civil registration Bill, the transgender Bill and the social welfare and pensions Bill. When will those Bills be published? I seek a commitment from the Taoiseach. In the past it was practice to publish the heads of a Bill once the Cabinet had approved them in order to make the work of the Dáil more effective. Will the Government return to that practice to allow the Dáil to be more effective in its preparation for dealing with Bills?

I did not catch them all. I will deal with the Solas Bill. The Minister will shortly bring a memorandum to Government on that - probably by the end of March or early April and the legislation will follow that. What are the other ones?

The other Bills are as follows. The civil registration Bill and the transgender Bill are indicated for this year, but I wish to know at what time this year. The final one is the social welfare and pensions Bill, which is indicated for this session.

The civil registration Bill is being drafted and is due later this year. I will need to come back with a more accurate line if I can. The heads are being drafted on the transgender Bill and it is due this year. What was the fourth one?

The social welfare and pensions Bill was to be published this session. Is it due in the next week or two and if not when in this session will we see it?

I suppose in the next couple of weeks. The Minister is away. I will give the Deputy an up-to-date line on that later in the day.

The Hunt report deals with the possible reconfiguration of third level colleges in the country. Assuming agreement will eventually be reached on the national configuration, will it require primary legislation? I ask for the Taoiseach's advice. How can I convince the Minister for Education and Skills to add to the schools building programme three primary schools in County Louth that have been excluded?

The answer to the Deputy's question is that he should raise it as a Topical Issue.

In respect of whether legislation will be needed, I understand the HEA has given all the colleges six months to respond with their views and proposals for the future. I am informed by the Minister for Education and Skills that the probability is that primary legislation may well be required. It is important to wait until the proposals come back from the colleges and to wait until they are assessed and analysed in the first instance. If legislation is required after that, then it will be brought in.

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