Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 2012

Vol. 764 No. 4

EU Presidency: Statements

The Taoiseach

Across the Union, people are gathering today to mark the 62nd anniversary of Robert Schuman's declaration in Paris. It is an important opportunity to step back from the detail of the day-to-day and to remind ourselves of the big picture, how much Europe has invested in its Union and how much we have achieved and gained together as a result.

In setting out his plan for a supranational entity to oversee French and German steel and coal production, Schuman was working to make future war between these two ancient enemies not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible. That was his immediate goal, but he knew that he was doing much more than that. He saw his plan as the foundation stone of an economic union open to all countries that agreed to be bound by it. Schuman, like many, lived through Europe's darkest hour. Unlike most, he saw a light at the end of it. He thought big and he aimed high. He was a pragmatic and sensible man as well. He knew that this new Europe would not be made, as he said, "all at once, or according to a single plan". It would proceed in its imperfect way over the years. How right he was. He knew the value of enduring qualities such as perseverance, co-operation and hope and how much it would be the working together as much as the texts and the treaties that would bind the people of Europe together in a spirit of peace and in mutual respect.

Joining the Union, or the Community as it was at the time, threw the windows open in this country, letting the winds of change blow through. It transformed our economics and our social policy. It transformed the lives of our women and brought high standards to our workplaces. It modernised our industry and reversed the decline in our agriculture, keeping people on the land and enabling them to make a decent living. It allowed us to escape the narrow confines of our history, normalising relations with our nearest neighbour, and brought us to a point where Ireland is now among the most open trading economies in the world. Pooling our sovereignty with partners has not been about what we have lost, but about everything we have gained and everything we have achieved together.

That journey is far from over. As we celebrate Europe Day, Schuman's vision finds itself under more pressure than ever before. Europe again finds itself in a low and difficult place. The crisis that has gripped us is back in sharp focus and stark choices continue to confront some of its member states, none more so than beleaguered Greece. In keeping with the spirit of Schuman, it is a time for looking forward and for laying plans. It is a time not for despair and despondency, but for renewal and reform.

Yes, Europe has struggled in recent years, but even in the most challenging of circumstances it has prevailed. We have moved from offering partners in difficulty ad hoc assistance to putting a permanent mechanism of support in place. Our commitment to each other has been strengthened and underpinned. We have made our rules more robust and their application more certain. We have stabilised our banks and have underpinned them so that they will not threaten Europe’s economy in the future. Through the new stability treaty that I hope Ireland will decide to ratify at the end of the month, we have put in place a framework for the future, ensuring that our common currency is underwritten by the rules it needs to ensure its ongoing stability.

We are entering a new and exciting phase. There is a shared acceptance that discipline is not enough and that we must now all dedicate the same energy to policies that will deliver growth and jobs, particularly for our young people. At our next meeting of the European Council on 23 May, we will seek to turn that commitment to real and practical effect. Ireland will be a full and active participant in this debate, especially when we take the chair as President at the start of next year.

This country is recovering. We are a resolute and pragmatic people looking forward to standing on our own feet again. We are dedicated to doing what is necessary to restore confidence in us and to return to strong and steady growth. Despite our hard work, our energy, our determination and our hope, however, there will be no Irish recovery without a recovery in Europe. There will be no recovery in Europe without growth. There will be no growth in Europe without conviction, leadership and courage.

On this day when we pay tribute to the Union's founding fathers, I send out a challenge to its current leaders. Let us take heart from what they achieved. Let us offer the same vision and leadership in our time. Let us be inspired as they were. Let us see the serious challenges that Europe faces today as the springboard to a new and brighter Union. Let us have the courage to do what needs to be done, however seemingly difficult the task. Forty years ago tomorrow, the Irish people voted overwhelmingly to join the European Community. We have the opportunity to strike a blow for our country's future again on 31 May. Above all, let us never stop thinking about the big picture, which this country can be a part of through the Union.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Eamon Gilmore)

I am delighted to mark the occasion of Europe Day, a celebration of what Europe, once a continent at war with itself, can do when it comes together to face our challenges. Facing adversity united and strengthened is nothing at all new for the European project. It is what we have done since the Union's foundation. Despite many predictions of doom or imminent downfall, including from within this House, Europe has weathered many ups and downs, building post-war economic recovery, surviving the oil crises, celebrating the post-communist reunification of Europe and enduring the current economic and financial crisis. Throughout, Europe has shown time and again that it is a vital part of any durable solution.

Working together, the EU and its member states have shaped a more positive future, be it through representation at key international negotiations on trade, economics or environmental issues. When Europe speaks with one coherent voice, the rest of the world listens. Ireland has tried isolationism and it was a dismal failure. Its effects were stifling not just in terms of our economy but also in terms of our society. This is something we must not allow to happen again.

I believe fundamentally that our membership of the European Union over the past 40 years has enabled Ireland to find her voice in our Continent and in the world. It has allowed us to become the diversified trading nation we are today through an internal Single Market of more than 500 million people and the negotiation of trade deals with third countries. This ability to export will drive our recovery. Similarly, the past four decades have witnessed a welcome opening up of Irish society. Whether on the rights of women, consumer welfare or environmental protection, our EU membership has served as the critical catalyst for change and progress. The impact of our EU membership on Ireland's social development is arguably even more of a recognisable legacy than the many positive evolutions which have marked our economic progress since 1973.

The immediate challenge facing Ireland and Europe is the continuing economic and financial crisis. Since coming to office 15 months ago, this Government has taken decisive steps to get Ireland back on a path to regaining our economic sovereignty by re-capitalising and restructuring of our banking sector; bringing order to the public finances; introducing a range of measures aimed at restoring economic growth and getting our people back to work; and rebuilding our international reputation. In each of these areas we have worked closely and constructively with our EU and international partners. The progress has been hard won but it is now recognised internationally, especially within the financial markets.

What Ireland and Europe now need is stability for our economies and, particularly, for our currency. The instability which we have witnessed since the outset of the crisis has been detrimental to investment and bad for jobs. The stability treaty on which our people will vote on 31 May represents an important element in our efforts to restore stability to Europe and the euro. This is our euro. It is our currency. Nobody in this Government has suggested that the treaty represents the whole story. This treaty is a necessary but not sufficient component of the response. The ratification and subsequent implementation of the treaty will present us with a golden opportunity to ensure that all member states deliver on their commitments. This will go a long way towards restoring stability to Ireland and Europe.

However, the sensible budgeting regime which the treaty codifies is only part of the solution, The key additional step which this Government has been vocally advocating at European level for many months is growth. We need sustainable growth for a true return to stability. Similarly, however, stability is the essential foundation on which to build growth and job creation. Stability and growth are two sides of the same coin. They should be understood as complementary rather than alternatives. I warmly welcome the renewed focus which is now being placed on the growth and jobs agenda and was pleased to congratulate French President-elect Hollande at the weekend. We look forward to working urgently with partners on this agenda and the Taoiseach will do this when he attends an informal meeting of the European Council in Brussels on 23 May. Growth will be at the top of the agenda.

There is no contradiction between an approach which seeks stability and one which works to ensure growth. That is an entirely consistent approach, and one which this Government shares. I look forward to Ireland taking another important step on the road to recovery on 31 May, with a clear signal that we

will continue to support stability and growth for our own country, for the euro area and for the European Union.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Over the years there has been little substance to Europe day in Ireland or elsewhere. It is not a public holiday and it is mostly marked by the institutions of the European Union. This is a shame because the great achievements of the Union deserve to be recognised. By agreeing to work together, the nations of Europe made a decisive move to overcome a history of devastating conflict and deep poverty. Even in the middle of a profound economic crisis, much of the progress the Union has enabled remains in place. We must focus on the crisis in hand but the only way forward is to start by recognising that the European Union is worth working to reform. At its best Europe has worked because it focused on the core goal of enabling the growth which could create jobs and raise living conditions. Those on the extreme right and left have spent decades attacking the Union as a conspiracy against the people when in fact it has been the vital factor in facing down vested interests on behalf of the people. With rising unemployment and deep deficits, public confidence in all forms of institutions has fallen. Polls show is that citizens are highly critical of developments in the Union but they have not given up hope. It remains the place where they believe the big solutions to the recession can be found.

Unfortunately, last year saw the leaders of Europe systematically fail in their duty to show resolve and ambition in overcoming this crisis. Where swift action was required they kept kicking the can down the road. Where new policies were needed they kept trying to make failed ones work. Where co-operation was essential they descended into petty squabbles. Thankfully, we appear to have reached a moment where a new approach is underway.

The agreement on the stability treaty did not solve the economic crisis but it appears to have significantly moved the debate about what must be done. Growth measures which were ignored last year are now being proposed with great urgency. Last week the Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs, Olli Rehn, spoke about the need to address investment for growth. Other leaders have backed this up and, most significantly, François Hollande has made new growth measures the centrepiece of his policy. They recognise that fiscal controls in individual countries have to be matched with central growth measures. Incorporating the existing rules into a stronger treaty is a useful means of restoring confidence in basic budget discipline incorporating, as is the establishment of a legally solid basis for creating a permanent fund to help countries in need. These are vital first steps.

On 23 May Europe needs its leaders to formally signal that extra growth measures will be agreed in the coming months. If these are significant new changes, particularly in respect of the mandate of the European Central Bank, a new treaty will be required. It will not be possible to simply add such important changes to the stability treaty because that treaty is between 25 member states whereas the entire membership of 27 must agree bigger changes.

I hope the statements by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste over the past several days signal the end of their reserved and timid approach to European growth measures. Neither of them has undertaken a programme of bilateral contacts with other EU states and Ireland's negotiating position seems to be that we will support anything as long as it does not require a full EU treaty. Next January the Government takes over the Presidency of the European Council with a strong team of officials and a record of Ireland running consistently excellent Presidencies. It needs to abandon the way it focuses European policy on the domestic media rather than our EU partners. The most effective way to prepare for the Presidency is for Ireland to start taking an active role in pushing ambitious measures to support growth and job creation Europe.

The Taoiseach and Tánaiste should stop talking about diplomatic initiatives and actually launch one. During the rest of this year the Union must focus on investment and growth supporting reforms. These cannot be the usual small-scale reform dressed up as major initiative. If this happens, Ireland's Presidency may see an about-turn in Europe's fortunes but if it does not we may face an even more serious crisis.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on the many challenges which confront citizens of the EU at this time. Many of these challenges arise out of the economic crisis and the policies of austerity being pursued by conservative governments across Europe, including our own. Sinn Féin believes that Ireland's place is in Europe and that resolving these difficulties requires co-operation with our European partners.

The big question is the democratic one of what kind of EU do we want. Sinn Féin wants a social European Union and the Presidency of the Council of the European Union in 2013 provides this State with an opportunity to steer Europe towards this goal. That requires us to abandon the austerity policies supported by Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party, which are leading Europe in the wrong direction.

Austerity has failed. Deficits are rising rather than falling, there have been deep cuts to public services, taxes are increasing and 16 million people across the EU are now unemployed. In national elections in France and Greece and in local elections in Italy, Germany and Britain, electorates have taken a stand against these failed policies. The referendum on 31 May provides Irish citizens with an opportunity to join this growing European-wide movement that is demanding an end to austerity as well investment in jobs and growth.

It is telling that it took the French President-elect to put these issues on the political agenda. Neither the Taoiseach nor the Tánaiste did it and now the Government is tripping over itself to join the growth bandwagon. A strong "No" vote will ensure that this goes beyond rhetoric and will strengthen the hand of all those who genuinely oppose austerity. It would also be a rejection of a Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil agreement to hand over fiscal sovereignty to unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats. If these parties have their way key fiscal decisions affecting Irish citizens will be made in future in Brussels and Strasbourg - not the Oireachtas. This was spelled out by Mario Draghi last week. Do Irish citizens want to be a province of a European super-state where technocrats take decisions with no accountability?

The fiscal treaty also fails to deal with some of the major problems facing economies at this time. It ignores the debt crisis and does nothing to tackle the jobs crisis. Instead it will mean more cuts and bank bailouts. The reality is that imposing deep cuts to public services, reducing wages and welfare payments, and imposing new taxes on low and middle-income families in a recession makes the recession worse.

There is an alternative which we have set out and which I commend to the Taoiseach. Getting people off the dole and back to work needs to be prioritised. How can we do this? There is an urgent need to increase the lending capacity of the European Investment Bank to stimulate activity in the real economy; cleanse the European banking system of toxic debts; introduce debt-restructuring agreements involving debt write-downs for heavily indebted states; and end the obligation on the State to pay the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note and unguaranteed senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank and other banks. Sinn Féin has also set out in successive budget submissions how we would close the deficit and fund the State while putting public finances back on a sustainable footing in a socially sustainable and equitable way. This includes paying the wages of nurses, teachers and gardaí and providing decent front-line services. The Government has yet to tell citizens how it will pay for a treaty that will cost a further €6 billion in cuts to implement.

The opportunity to make a decisive change lies before us. The question is whether the Government is up to the challenges this entails. On 31 May citizens here will have the opportunity to guide the Government and give it direction. Sinn Féin is calling for a "No" vote - no to austerity and "Yes" for investment and jobs.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Facing into Ireland's Presidency the key issue facing the people of this country and those across Europe is what kind of Europe we will have and what the Government will do to shape the future direction of Europe. The answer to the question as to what kind of Europe we should have is that we should have the sort of Europe the people want. In recent days we have got very clear messages from the citizens of Europe about what sort of Europe they want. In France, Greece, Holland and Austria and with mass protests in countries such as Spain and Portugal the message from the people of Europe is unmistakable. They are saying that they want an end to a Europe which is characterised by brutal austerity being inflicted on ordinary families and citizens in order to bail out banks and speculators. They want a Europe which prioritises jobs, economic growth, fairness and a decent standard of living for all. They want a people's Europe. Sadly all the evidence coming from the Government, Chancellor Merkel and the Government's new best pals in Fianna Fáil indicates that they are hell-bent on continuing to cling to the failed policies and the failed agenda for Europe that has led us to the catastrophic crisis that Europe now faces. They are hell-bent on continuing to cling to the discredited policy of bailing out banks and speculators at all costs and at the expense of the welfare, jobs and hopes of ordinary citizens, sacrificing those things on the altar of banks and profit-hungry financial markets.

Whatever fine words and high-flung rhetoric the Government may use in the run-in to or during the Presidency, its real agenda for Europe is contained in its commitment to the austerity treaty. Under pressure from the people of Europe and the citizens of this country, it can repeat the words "growth" and "jobs" all it likes, but simply saying those words does not create jobs or growth. A commitment to the fiscal austerity treaty is incompatible with any serious commitment to creating jobs and promoting growth in this country or across Europe. All the evidence is clear on that matter. The impact of austerity over the past four years has been disastrous and has failed to produce anything but greater levels of unemployment and deeper economic stagnation and recession. It has had precisely that effect in this country. At what point will the Taoiseach acknowledge that?

The Taoiseach has accused us of fantasy economics in opposing the fiscal treaty and tried to claim that it is the Government that is being realistic and pragmatic. However, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council - set up by the IMF and not a left-wing think tank - has set out clearly the figures showing what will be required to meet the debt and deficit targets over the coming years. Those figures make it clear that the Government would need to inflict a brutal level of cuts - billions of euro of cuts - for years if we sign up to this treaty. An alarming graph in the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council's recent report shows what would happen if we miss our growth targets by even 1%. It shows the Government would need to ratchet up the level of cuts from €8.6 billion over the next three years to more than €13 billion and all the signs are that the Government's growth projection targets will be missed by a very significant amount and are being downgraded. Will the Government continue down a failed road or will it recognise what the people of Europe and this country want, which is to change tack, end the austerity agenda and put the jobs and welfare of citizens first?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

And grow money on trees.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy never mentioned the extra €10 billion in taxes in one year which he had been talking about.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Lucinda Creighton)

As Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, I am pleased to speak in the Chamber today on the occasion of Europe Day and to have the opportunity to outline the challenges and opportunities presented by holding the Presidency of the Council of the European Union in the first half of next year. The Presidency is a responsibility imposed on all member states in rotation to manage the business of the Union for six months. It is one of the tangible demonstrations of the equality of each member state, regardless of size or wealth. It is a responsibility that Ireland has discharged with distinction on six previous occasions and our ambition must be to do no less this time around.

Managing the Presidency will present many challenges, particularly at a time when resources are tight. The day-to-day management of the EU agenda has become more complex with the expansion of the Union to 27 member states and with the new institutional arrangements introduced under the Lisbon treaty.

At the same time, the Presidency presents a unique opportunity, particularly now at a time of crisis. In our past presidencies, we won a reputation for managing the business of the Union in an efficient, impartial and effective manner. We have the chance again to demonstrate that can-do attitude to our partners and to show that Ireland is fully back in business. In our Presidency we also have the opportunity to shape and define policies that can have a beneficial impact on the lives of millions of our fellow citizens in Ireland and also across the EU. This is why I urge Members of the Oireachtas to share through the various sectoral committees their views on Ireland's Presidency objectives. Earlier this year I met a range of NGOs and civil society bodies and encouraged them to use this opportunity to contribute to Ireland's Presidency agenda and I have been extremely impressed by the ideas and proposals that have emerged from this process.

Next year is to be officially designated as the European Year of Citizens, and our Presidency will coincide with the 40th anniversary of Ireland's accession to the EU in 1973. I would like to see our Presidency as an opportunity to reflect on what it means to be a citizen of the Union and on the changes that Irish society has experienced over the past four decades. Many will recall the benefits that have flowed from our accession to the EEC in 1973, but I am concerned that a newer generation does not take them for granted, whether it is a fairer society for each and every citizen, a cleaner environment, or the right to work, study and live in 26 other states, not to mention the significant labour rights introduced due to our membership and the immense strides in the area of equality and women's rights throughout the European Union, particularly in Ireland.

I would also like next year to be an opportunity not only to consider the benefits of our membership, but also to think about Ireland's place in Europe and our contribution to its future. We have often thought only of Europe in terms of what resources we can get from it, through the CAP, cohesion funding, Structural Funds and so on. However, we have responsibilities as members of the Union and it is not good enough for us to sit back and wait for others to decide on future positions, the future policy agenda and the future shape of the Union. That is for us to do too. We have a responsibility as a member state.

The Taoiseach and Tánaiste have already outlined some of the main themes of our Presidency that have emerged at this stage of planning. Defining the Presidency programme is an evolving process. Over the coming months, we will work closely with our partners as we refine the programme and we will also be mindful of the progress made by Denmark, which currently holds the Presidency, and Cyprus which will follow from July.

Work is also proceeding on co-ordinating calendars and arrangements for the hundreds of meetings that will take place in Ireland, Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg during the Presidency. In the light of our current circumstances, we aim to run an efficient but cost-effective Presidency. As part of our strategy to contain costs, we will hold many Presidency events in a single State-owned venue, Dublin Castle. Work is also ongoing to develop the Presidency website - eu2013.ie - which will be, for many, the main contact with the Presidency next year. In addition to providing detailed news and information on the Presidency, we will use the website to provide information about Ireland and to promote tourism to Ireland and Irish goods and services.

I also initiated a working group to focus on ways to maximise the promotional opportunities presented by the Presidency. This brings together the main State agencies as well as other stakeholders. I also co-chair a group with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht which is assessing how the Presidency can be used to promote Irish culture internationally and to develop cultural events in Ireland to mark the Presidency. We will be under an increased focus next year from the international media and from other states which will be carefully assessing how we perform. We must use to demonstrate our capabilities and strengths as a nation.

Strengthening Oireachtas engagement in EU affairs is a key priority of the Government. This priority is part of the terms of reference of the Interdepartmental Committee on EU Engagement, which was established earlier this year by Government decision and which I chair. At the core of the issue of Oireachtas engagement is the relationship between the Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas. Other countries, most notably the German federal government and its parliament, have agreed formal co-operation agreements with regard to EU matters. These agreements outline the respective commitments between government and parliament such as, for example, in relation to constructive dialogue and flow of information. I believe that such an agreement in an Irish context would be a powerful symbolic statement of our commitment to transparent and accountable EU decision-making, in the spirit of the Lisbon treaty. The agreement would operate within the current legislative parameters, in that it would build upon the current arrangements in place under the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002 and would underpin the commitments on European Union matters in the programme for government, such as the appearance of Ministers before Oireachtas committees to discuss the agendas of upcoming EU Council meetings.

I intend to invite the Ceann Comhairle to nominate officials from the Houses of the Oireachtas service to engage in discussions with my officials with a view to developing such an agreement in the coming months in the lead-in to Ireland's 2013 Presidency of the EU. I am proud to represent Ireland as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs during the Irish Presidency and look forward to using the Presidency to strengthen Ireland's standing abroad. I look forward to a constructive debate here and to hearing the contributions of both government and opposition parties and to an engaging question and answer session.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I wish the Minister of State well in the task that lies ahead. While it is a great privilege to take part in this debate, I am disappointed that we are engaged in a debate that will only last 95 minutes and which only allows five minutes to each spokesperson. The Minister of State attracted considerable praise and commendation last year for her work organising a Europe day that was far more effective and engaging, as it included having a Commissioner and Members of the European Parliament here, which made Europe day far more meaningful. It is a pity at a time we all admit Europe is central to the political and personal discourse of the Irish people, that is not what we are having today.

It is impossible to talk about next year's Presidency of the Union without addressing the urgent issues facing Europe today. The economic crisis facing the members of the Union is so deep that it will certainly not be over by next January. In fact, it is highly likely that charting a way out of the crisis will remain the dominant issue on the agenda for some considerable time. Fianna Fáil has argued consistently since early last year that Ireland needed to actively push growth measures on the agenda of the Union. Unfortunately, the only initiative which was taken in the Government's first year was to sign letters drafted by other countries which asked for the faster implementation of measures already agreed. If one looks at the Taoiseach's statements after Council meetings, one finds a pattern of exaggerating agreements which consistently ignored the need for action. Ireland did not table a single growth or employment creating measure during the negotiation of the stability treaty. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste did not arrange the tour of capitals of the type normally expected, but why they have taken this hands-off approach remains unclear.

Thankfully, the Government has finally indicated that it supports the growing consensus throughout the Union for the more ambitious measures needed now. On 23 May there will be a chance for the Taoiseach to support Mr. Hollande's agenda for urgent action on growth, including changes to the European treaties. Ireland should specifically call for action on three key areas: agreement to a formal negotiation on the role and mandate of the ECB; a major increase in funding for the European Investment Bank, which would be concentrated onemployment-intensive projects in states with high unemployment; and an increase in Structural Funds for regions with high unemployment, to include both an overall increase and a reprioritisation of funding between countries. As my party has laid out in great detail, a range of other important changes is required but these are ones that should be tackled in the next few months. If leaders want to show they are serious they will do so. These are measures that can help growth and, at the same time, restore the confidence which states need in order to raise money to fund their public services. Ireland has held the Presidency of the Council at very sensitive times in the past so next year does not present a unique challenge. Time and again, Ireland has proven to be among the most competent and effective holders of the Council Presidency, and I expect no less from the Minister of State and her colleagues. The 2004 Presidency remains one of the most successful in the history of the European Union. During the first six months of 2004 Ireland brought to a conclusion a series of negotiations which most commentators thought were doomed. On top of negotiating a complex treaty, dealing with a new budget and agreeing a new Commission, Ireland ensured that the largest enlargement in the EU’s history was concluded flawlessly.

One of the most disappointing parts of this Government's approach to European issues has been the way in which it has brought a partisan approach to a previously bipartisan area. Until forced by circumstances there was no effort to respect the tradition of positive consultation with other pro-Europe parties in this country. Also ignored were constructive warnings about rushing the referendum. For most of last year, the primary effort was to talk down Ireland's status so that the Government could claim to have resurrected it overnight. Ireland's last Presidency shows up this petty approach for what it is. The fact that every state in Europe agreed to nominate Ireland to chair the OSCE is further proof that our diplomatic standing has always remained high, in terms of both our administrative and political activities.

In terms of the ministerial councils, our Ministers will be expected to play a leading role. I have no doubt that we will carry out this Presidency with great professionalism and will move the agenda forward in a number of important areas, the biggest reason being our excellent diplomatic corps and the preparations which have been under way for the last few years. In terms of the sectoral councils, we believe that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine should use this area as an opportunity to try to change the long-term debate on the Common Agricultural Policy. For too long the debate has been about trying to reduce the CAP in favour of other areas. This zero-sum game has led to a constant insecurity about the CAP, which is a vital support both for rural communities and for ensuring a secure, safe food supply. It should be praised, not attacked. We need to start arguing for an increase in the overall EU budget rather than accept the constant rearguard fight to protect the CAP.

Is the Ceann Comhairle telling me I have little time left?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I refer, in conclusion, to ECOFIN. We should signal now that enacting a single bank resolution regime is a priority for us and should ensure we have enough officials working on this. It is likely that other measures will fall to the full Council, but this is one on which the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, should aim to lead.

An Ceann Comhairle

The next speaker listed is Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn from Sinn Féin.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

May I speak in Deputy Mac Lochlainn's place?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, you may. You were to speak later but if you wish to step into the slot that is fine. You have five minutes.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Go raibh maith agat. I offer the Government and its Ministers every good wish as they take on the Presidency of the EU. We are doing so at a very troubled time not only in the economic affairs of Europe, but also in its democratic affairs. We have to persuade the member states there is a better way to deal with the problems of both Ireland and of Europe during our Presidency.

I will spend most of my five minutes talking about agriculture because that is my brief but will also speak, briefly, on a number of wider issues. On agriculture, Ireland's Presidency, which begins next January, provides a big opportunity to gain agreement on the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. None of us underestimates the importance of Irish agriculture to the economy. It provides jobs not only through actual farming, but through manufacturing, food processing, transport - so many different areas. It is a vital industry and it is of vital importance that Ireland gets a good deal from the CAP negotiations. Ireland's Presidency should be used to encourage debate on reform and to push our agenda on this issue. From listening to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, I have no doubt he will push it along.

However, there are some very clear warning signs in this regard. The current economic crisis gripping Europe, coupled with the crippling austerity measures being imposed throughout the EU member states, may see a delay in the agreeing of the overall EU budget, the progressing of the CAP reform talks and the reaching of agreement on the CAP budget. The CAP negotiations are likely to be very divisive because each member state will push for an agreement that best suits its economy. We need to position ourselves and work with the other member states, particularly during the Presidency, to ensure we have as many friends as possible who understand Ireland's position in regard to CAP reform and the overall CAP budget. That is why it is essential that as much progress as possible on CAP reform is made during Ireland's Presidency.

During the CAP negotiations it is also important there is a close working relationship between the Ministers for Agriculture in both the Twenty-six and the Six Counties. We have a shared future in agriculture between North and South which must be developed and exploited. It is important that both Departments work together to further the shared goals of farmers on an all-island basis. There are very many mutual benefits to be gained for farmers in the Six and the Twenty-six Counties and the Ministers' role in the talks must reflect this. We encourage very close working relations with the Department of Agriculture in the Six Counties.

On a wider note, the European Union is increasingly becoming a less democratic, more centralised and autocratic union of states. The move towards autocracy will accelerate if the austerity treaty is passed in its current form on 31 May. Unelected and unaccountable officials will be able to determine the levels of income, taxation and public services available to citizens of Ireland and the other EU states. This move towards centralisation must be resisted during Ireland's Presidency of the Union. I say to the Minister of State I am not encouraged by some of the statements issued so far to think the Government will take this role, which I believe is necessary, not only for Ireland but for all EU member states.

It is time for Ireland to take an assertive stand in its relationship with Europe. The Presidency of the EU should be used as an opportunity for proper engagement and as a move to work towards a more democratic Europe. It is time for Europe to engage with citizens, listen to them and heed their voices. It is time Europe started looking at and working for an economy that works for people rather than have people working for an economy.

Am I all right for time?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is just over time.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Ireland must use this opportunity to push for a Europe that invests in people, that cares for the well-being and the living standards of all. That approach must be applied also to the reform of the CAP. We should push for a policy that provides enough to keep as many farmers as possible on the land. CAP reform should ensure that all farmers are able to attain an equitable standard of living while environmental concerns are also addressed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Shane Ross, who has five minutes.

Deputy Shane Ross

I wish to elaborate on a few matters I mentioned during Leaders' Questions today. I am not sure it matters terribly whether Ireland is President of the Union. I hope it does and that the Presidency gives us a pivotal position for influencing the European Union agenda.

Since 2008, when we hit the rocks financially, we have punched well below our weight. Perhaps it was not totally our fault. If we are to continue to pursue the agenda dictated to us, by Germany in particular, I am not sure our Presidency will be marked by anything except continued subservience to greater and stronger powers overseas. I would like to hear a vision of our goals in a specific way for those six months from the Minister of State, the Taoiseach and any Minister with responsibility in this area. There is a danger that we will pursue an agenda that means we will do nothing for Ireland. There is also a danger that we will do the bidding of Germany and other more powerful countries. There is a danger that any nation that holds the Presidency will undertake a finger in the dyke operation because of the crisis, which is permanent as far as we can see. We should not hold out much hope unless the Government fills us with hope by presenting us with a vision and specific goals for Europe and Ireland.

There is no doubt that in the past week there has been an opportunity provided for Ireland, specifically, and smaller nations. What happened in France is monumental and seismic. The balance of power in Europe has changed. There is no longer an ideological unity between the strongest countries in Europe. There was an unhealthy ideological unity, as any ideological unity between two such powerful nations would be. I welcome the fact that François Hollande has taken over, specifically because he represents something different to Chancellor Angela Merkel. If the Irish Government is to play a role in the Presidency, rather than being a cypher for Chancellor Merkel, I hope it will play the role of adjusting the balance of power in Europe so there is balance. At the moment there is no balance of power in Europe. It is German-led and joined by France, with the rest of the nations falling into line. I urge the Government to take that attitude and not to be a German satellite. It is the duty of the Government to crack up this monolithic duopoly that has dominated Europe for so long.

I welcome the outbreak of democracy in Europe in the past week. There is a possibility, as the last speaker mentioned, of people seizing back power from the apparatchiks, the bureaucracy, the Commission, the European Central Bank and the major powers that have dominated. I do not agree with a large number of statements made by the extremists on either side in Greece but it is welcome that they have sent the message that they matter. Inconvenient as it is, the people at the top who have been dictating the pace must take their views into account. That is true in Greece as it is in France.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

I welcome the opportunity to address the Dáil on Europe Day 2012. It is easy to forget what is positive when times are hard and today I want to focus on the benefits the EU has brought us. Then I will speak about the challenges we face to maintain our work in Europe in one of the most commendable agendas, overseas development, and I will outline the opportunities for the Oireachtas during the Irish Presidency next year.

We all know the benefits the European Union has brought to Ireland, Europe and the world. It has been a force for good since it came into existence. When hopes of European co-operation first took off, we were recovering from the Second World War, which almost brought the Continent to the point of self-destruction, with millions of people killed. People of previous generations were used to living with the threat of war looming over their everyday lives. In the past 70 years, a short period, this has changed completely. We struggled initially and, until 30 years ago, Europe was divided by the Iron Curtain and torn between two conflicting ideologies but today we find ourselves in a different place. Now, children struggle to believe how Europe was. Before speaking here, I spoke to schoolchildren from Ashbourne. We spoke about how, 30 years ago, we needed visas to get into countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia, as it was. I told them about my experience in the 1980s walking through Checkpoint Charlie in a divided Berlin. It is difficult to understand how far we have come in a short period of time.

Europe has also been beneficial to us in Ireland. European involvement in the Northern Ireland peace process was instrumental in ensuring we reached a point where we could sign the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The peace that was difficult to imagine at home and throughout the European Union is now a reality. The European project has resulted in our continent being seen as an example of peace and co-operation.

We must not just celebrate our internal successes but also the positive impact Europe has had throughout the world. In overseas aid, Europe has built up an international reputation of which we should all be proud. Our programmes have brought benefits to many people throughout the developing world. Some will argue that we should reduce these programmes when we are in hard times in Europe but in times of difficulty we reveal who we really are. We must ensure that Europe's aid programmes continue to help those who need it most.

As we get ready for the Irish Presidency of the European Union in January, we must make sure the Oireachtas plays its part in shaping the agenda. With the EU having a greater impact on our day-to-day lives, national parliaments must step up to increase awareness of the European Union. It is a great opportunity next year to do just that. In the six months of our Presidency, there will be many interparliamentary meetings in Dublin and throughout the country. We must use the coming months to agree our priorities for the Irish Presidency. I mentioned our involvement in the overseas aid programme and I want to see the Presidency focus on employment, particularly youth unemployment. This is a major issue for Ireland and throughout Europe. We can use our time between now and then to plan. Deputy Shane Ross says he wants to see some detail and so do I. I want to see the detail and meat on the bones of what we can hope to achieve on youth unemployment throughout our Presidency.

Tomorrow, the Joint Committee on European Union affairs will mark Europe Week 2012. Mr. Brendan Halligan will appear to outline his vision for Europe for the next 20 years. We must celebrate the benefits of Europe in Ireland and beyond and use this to move forward and bring better prosperity, continued peace and harmony for the people of Europe.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

There is far more to Europe and the European Union than the eurozone but, for many people, the most concrete manifestation of the European Union is the euro in their wallets or purses. There is no doubt that what happens to the eurozone will have a seismic impact on the health of European political project. As we survey where matters stand after the past few weeks, the eurozone is facing a grim vista of challenges. The most recent developments include what happened in France, where one in five people voted for the Front National Party, which is anti-euro and anti-globalisation. It espouses views and philosophies not held by any Member of this House. It is now a mainstream political party.

Other speakers have referred to youth unemployment in this country and across the European Union. The figures show that between one in three people under the age of 25 is unemployed in certain states of the European Union. The results of the recent Greek election demonstrate that it is very difficult to imagine that this result will contribute to an alleviation of the current crisis in that country. The response of some member states to date puts me in mind of the words of William Butler Yeats, "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold". He wrote those lines in the aftermath of the First World War and in the years prior to the Russian Revolution.

I contend that Europe is facing the battle to preserve the eurozone, the battle to preserve the political identity of the European Union to which everyone can subscribe. In addition, in many ways this is also a battle for the future of centrist politics within Europe. I do not mean whether one sits on the centre left or the centre right. Regardless of one's position in that spectrum, we have far more in common than divides us. I note the ability of parties and movements who sit outside that centre to gain momentum and more support within Europe. I am fearful that if this happens, the prospect for Europe and the European Union is very grim.

Europe needs to recognise this possibility and to act upon it. The situation is evolving rapidly. We need to commence a discussion about how to facilitate the orderly exit of a country from the eurozone. We need to consider what this would mean for the country concerned but also we must facilitate a process for countries which want to remain in the eurozone to allow them to do so. Otherwise, forces will be set in motion which could lead to an unravelling beyond the power of anyone to control.

We must regard the eurozone and the current economic difficulty as a balance of payments crisis. I differ somewhat from the views of my colleague, Deputy Ross, in this regard. It is not a question of a balance of power but rather a crisis of a balance of payments. If peripheral countries are deflating, it is essential that countries in the core are inflating. If this does not happen, there will not be the balanced adjustment needed.

In conclusion, I wish to make two political points. I agree with my colleague from Sinn Féin regarding the role of politics. There needs to be an infusion of democracy into the resolution. If the price we pay for dealing with an economic crisis results in a further distance between the people and their rulers, we prolong the inevitable.

When growth returns, as it will, we must ensure that the fruits of that growth are distributed equally and fairly. Those dividends must not be concentrated at the top. I refer to a recent article in the Financial Times by Niall Ferguson and Pierpaolo Barbieri writing on the prospects for Europe, where they state: “Today, the biggest threat to its survival is no longer the economic consequences of austerity, it is the political consequences”. We need to take steps to recognise them.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I welcome the opportunity to make a brief contribution to this debate on the forthcoming Irish Presidency of the European Union. In the midst of a referendum campaign that will play such a crucial role regarding our position in the future of the Union, it is fitting that we use Europe Day to reflect upon what the future will hold. It is an opportunity to consider what we hope to achieve when we hold the Presidency of the European Council next year. It is also a moment to reflect upon how far Europe has advanced since the Schuman declaration first echoed through the Continent in 1950 and the European movement was begun.

First, I wish to speak about the theme developed by the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan in London yesterday when he floated the idea that the European bailout fund would be used to directly recapitalise banks throughout Europe. The Fianna Fáil Party supports this view. Any objective analysis of European Union policy with regard to the sharing of the burden of bank losses will conclude that the current policy is fundamentally unfair. The Irish State has injected approximately €64 billion into the Irish banks, which amounts to approximately 40% of Ireland's GDP. In view of the trenchant policy of the European Central Bank, senior bondholders would not be asked to contribute one cent towards those losses. We can argue about domestic policy decisions all we like but that ECB policy alone is central to the fact that the Irish people have had to take on that burden. An issue now arises with regard to Spain's third largest bank and there will be major issues with regard to many other banks in the European Union who may require additional capital injection. If there is to be any European assistance for the recapitalisation of banks, then Ireland should be first in that queue. The Government should be making that case at every opportunity. There is an opportunity to retrospectively apply the provisions to which Professor Honohan referred, to Irish banks. This would probably arise in the form of the European bailout fund taking a direct stake in the Irish banks which have been bailed out and recompensing the Irish taxpayer in that respect. We believe there is great potential in this proposition.

As regards the Irish Presidency, the Government should be prepared to take the initiative on a number of key issues and to show leadership. Adequate resources in terms of diplomats, technical assistance and most critically, the time and energy of Ministers, will need to be fully committed if we are to make progress and secure tangible achievements during our Presidency. By January 2013 of next year, the EU will have taken steps, through the intertwined stability treaty, and the European Stability Mechanism, to stave off the storm clouds gathering around the euro. However, in order to drive growth and create jobs to tackle the rising unemployment queues throughout the Continent, much more action will be required. The consensus is growing across Europe that fiscal prudence alone will not be sufficient to stem the most severe crisis the developed world has witnessed since 1929. A comprehensive stimulus package, as our party has consistently called for, is an integral part of any meaningful solution to address the crisis. This must be a strategy that will take people off the dole queues and get Europe working again.

Taking steps to address the debt problem through strong fiscal rules combined with measures to stimulate growth is the only feasible strategy to tackle the economic problems of Europe. The multi-annual financial framework from 2014 to 2020 is currently being worked out in Brussels. This will have a major impact on what resources will be available to the cornerstone of the Union. The resolution of the multi-annual financial framework may fall under the watch of the Government if negotiations continue to drag on. Taking leadership on a growth agenda, possibly using the multi-annual financial framework, should be a key priority for the Government when it assumes the Presidency.

Another critical issue from an Irish perspective will be the resolution of the CAP post-2013 negotiations. The decisions by the multi-annual financial framework as to who gets what in the EU will have a significant impact on the future of CAP. Several areas of contention threaten to have a very greater impact on Irish farmers. The introduction of a flat rate payment system, the intricacies of greening, a 2014 reference year and supports for young farmers all need to be addressed during our Presidency. These issues will have a profound impact on the shape of agriculture in Ireland, on our landscape and for a major section of our economy. The timing of our Presidency and the deadline for reform make it an ideal opportunity to press home changes that will benefit Ireland and Europe as a whole.

The challenges that face Europe are immense but through co-operation as equal partners with our European neighbours we can rise to face them. I look forward to the EU Presidency as an opportunity for Ireland to take a strong role in this regard.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I also welcome the comments made yesterday by Professor Honohan. It would have been a lot better if the European financial system had dealt with the banks' problems rather than passing them on to citizens. The notion of turning private debt into State debt has been the root of most of the present crisis.

It has been an interesting time in Europe for a while, and the last few months have been no different. Without doubt the strongest statement coming from Europe in recent months has been that politicians are out of touch with the people they are supposed to represent. The policies are not working, the method of government is not working and the people are certainly not working. We have seen an upheaval right across Europe.

It is disingenuous of the Taoiseach to say that he is all in favour of French president-elect Hollande's approach to the problem and to the fiscal treaty, given that we have rolled along with everything so far. Whatever the Germans have told us, the Government says: "Oh yes, that's the best for us; and if a growth pact comes along, sure grand, we'll take that too".

Clearly, however, Mr. Hollande has a few other ideas just to show that he is a little bit different. Prior to his election, The Economist magazine said that he was a rather dangerous individual who genuinely believes in the need to create a fairer society. My God, that is something to worry about.

He is also in favour of eurobonds, although I do not see the Germans agreeing to that idea. What he is really seeking, however, is an acceptance by Germany that the intra-euro area imbalances are two-sided. The reason the periphery overborrowed is because the German financial system overloaned. The imbalances still exist and the Italians have been at pains to point that out lately.

In Italy, the economics spokesman for the PDL - the largest party supporting Mario Monti's technocratic Government - Mr. Renato Brunetta, said it was "intolerable" that Germany could finance its debt at costs below the level of inflation, while the rest of Europe was paying on average three percentage points more. "We cannot give as a gift this competitive advantage to Germany. This is provoking the destruction of the European club," he said, adding: "If there is not a commitment by the European Council in June to amend the fiscal compact, it won't be ratified."

Italy is probably only at the start of its problems and given the manner in which it is going about fixing them I fear for the Italian people. We do not need to discuss Greece, given that two thirds of the people there have clearly said "No" to austerity. In addition, it will not be long before the Dutch have their say in September when fresh elections take place there.

Spain has become the new basket case. Next week it will be two years since Zapatero's socialist Government adopted the first austerity measures and passed a series of structural reforms. These measures brought about the electoral suicide of the Spanish socialist party. Now the conservatives find themselves in a similar situation. Little more than 100 days after gaining power, they have alienated citizens by pushing austerity well beyond their electoral mandate only to find themselves as heavily penalised by the great financial markets as Zapatero was.

It is true that the markets are making life difficult for the Spanish Government, but that is no surprise. What is outrageous is that while Spaniards face recession and soaring unemployment, the Bundesbank president, Jens Weidmann, who is also a member of the European Central Bank's council, states that above 6% interest rates for Spanish sovereign debt are not the end of the world. I am sure they are probably not the end of the world for Germany, but they are surely not making things easier for the Spaniards.

Austerity has no doubt taken a larger than expected toll. Demand is falling for loans to businesses and consumers despite ECB action to help the region's banks. The confidence fairy seemingly does not exist. The notion that by slashing spending confidence will return to businesses and consumers, and that they will all start spending again, has been blown out of the water at this stage.

This Government promised to be different from the Fianna Fáil-Green Administration, and was elected because of that promise. If there is one thing that stands out for the people more than anything else, however, it is that this Government is the same as its predecessor. People do not see any difference. That is why 50% of the people refused to pay the household charge because they are disillusioned beyond all belief. They were so glad that an election came around last year so that they could change things at last. They thought they would change things by putting Labour and Fine Gael into government, yet they got more of the same.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

It has been an interesting week in Europe with local elections in Britain, Italy and Germany where parties calling for a new direction against austerity have been endorsed by the electorate. More important, France has a new president who has campaigned against austerity without any plan for jobs and growth. In Greece, we have seen an historic election in which the people have rejected austerity. In France and Greece in particular it has been a victory for hope over fear. Yet our Government is conducting a campaign for an intergovernmental treaty, not an EU one, which is based on fear. It is based on the idea of saying "It's not much of a treaty but, sure, we're going to have to say ‘Yes' to get future funding".

We have the spectacle of our Tánaiste jetting out to Paris seeking to be part of the celebrations there. One could not write the script. On numerous occasions in this Chamber, I have appealed to the Tánaiste and his colleagues to listen to social democratic, left-wing and trade union voices across Europe who have opposed this crazy austerity policy. It is failing and is pushing people into the margins and despair, particularly in Ireland, Greece, Spain and Portugal. No doubt other countries will join them.

Here we are on Europe Day but where is the solidarity? Where is the real sense of us all being Europeans together? Where has the real vision gone? The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, wants to have it all ways. She wants to have trade surpluses in her country and wants to maintain competitiveness as well as boosting exports. She does not want to drive up domestic demand that could assist the European project. At the same time, she tells her own people that we were all reckless and feckless on the periphery, and if only we could be more prudent like the Germans we would not be in this mess. She does not tell them, however, that the Landesbank and other German banks were up to their necks in this crisis. Without due diligence, regulation or any management sense, they recklessly stuffed money into the periphery - particularly in Ireland, into private banks - and have asked our people to take that burden.

Here we are on Europe Day but it is a bit of a charade because the Government is all over the place. The Fine Gael Party wanted Sarkozy to win the French presidential election, because his UMP is a sister party of Fine Gael's. Meanwhile, the Tánaiste is diving over to Paris to get photographed, if possible, with the victorious team there. He wants to rewrite the narrative that all along he was opposed to austerity.

They want to prove that all along they were fighting the good fight, agreeing with Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, Roubini, Sinn Féin, the United Left Alliance and all the other advocates of a new direction. It will not fool anybody, however. Maybe now is the time for reflection and courage. It is the time to stand up for the national interest once and for all, and see that the tide has well and truly turned, as it was always going to. People in Europe could only take so much of this. They have started to fight back and have done so with immense civil disobedience. Here in Ireland we have had mass resistance to the household charge. In all reality we have already had a referendum on that issue and on austerity. Perhaps now finally we can have an Irish Government that will stand up for our interests, give our people hope and reverse this madness.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will now have questions to the Minister of State. As only 20 minutes has been allocated for this, I may have to group questions.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I will be brief. I have four or five short questions. Many Members have referred to the need to return to the communautaire approach and the abandonment of the "Merkozy" approach. Does the Minister of State see us having an opportunity during our Presidency to do something effective about that?

The Honohan proposal and the development of the role of the ECB were mentioned. Is that a priority for the Minister of State and what initiatives has she in mind?

The issue of the Western Balkans and the maintaining of stability there is important. Can the Minister of State give us an assurance that under Ireland's Presidency focus will be placed on that area?

The question of enlargement has been marginalised to a very large extent by virtue of the financial crisis we are all confronting. We know of the Minister of State's keen interest in the issue of accession for Turkey. Has her views on that developed? What about Iceland and the impact of Icelandic accession on the fisheries industry? During our Presidency will we be able to achieve anything in that respect?

On the millennium goals for development aid, we seem to be operating in a situation where 0.5% of GDP is the baseline we have while working towards 0.7% at some stage in the future. What can we do as a country that is now borrowing the money we are giving away in development aid to use our moral authority to get our European partners to step up to the mark and ensure they give from the substantially greater resources they have to assist those in greatest need in the developing world?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the Deputy has asked quite a number of questions, I will ask the Minister of State to reply to them, as that would be preferable to grouping them with other questions.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Lucinda Creighton)

I will try to reply to them all. I could spend the 20 minutes answering those questions-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister of State certainly will not do that.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

-----but I will limit the time I spend replying. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle can rule me out of order on that.

I will begin with the question on the community method of decision making, something about which I have spoken repeatedly for the past year and about which I feel strongly. I chair the interdepartmental group in government preparing our priorities for the Presidency. This is something we have already agreed will be a very important feature of our Presidency, that we will advance the community method of decision making. I stress there would not necessarily be consensus in the Chamber about that. While some of our colleagues are happy to condemn France and Germany for their role in trying to provide leadership at a European level, equally if we start talking about strengthening the role of the European Commission, which is the body where every member state is represented equally and impartially, they will clamour to condemn that approach as well. One has to begin to wonder whether they want any leadership at a European level or whether they want to deconstruct the entire thing.

I welcome the focus on the Presidency in the Deputy's questions. I hope what I said goes some way to answering the question on how we intend to approach our decision making. We want to bring all stakeholders on board. We want to ensure that all member states are central to decision making and that the European Commission will be more proactive in leading the legislative agenda, particularly when it comes to implementing the key growth enhancing measures that we so desperately need. It may come as a surprise to Deputies that these are not something that have suddenly fallen out of the heavens in the past three days; they are measures on which we as a Government have been providing plenty of leadership, especially during the past four months where the Taoiseach along with a number of other Heads of State and Government have been leading the charge in putting the growth and job creating agenda front and centre at a European level, not least at the informal summit in January and again at the spring summit in March.

On the Deputy's question on the role of the ECB, this is something we are currently discussing internally in government. We had a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on European Affairs last week at which we prepared our approach to the June summit, to the informal dinner at which growth will be discussed which will take place 23 May and to forthcoming ECOFIN and eurozone meetings. We are anxious to see an enhanced role for the ECB. That again is not something new from the Government's perspective. We have seen clearly that there has been a quid pro quo at European level in recent months. When the stability treaty was agreed in principle in December we immediately saw a direct response from the ECB, which immediately pumped €500 billion into the financial system. We saw a repeat of that action in January, which was hugely important to stabilising the European economy. I do not think any of us are particularly fans or cheerleaders for the banks at present. In terms of the reputation, behaviours and activity of the banks during the past number of years, be it before the crash or since it in terms of credit and providing funding for SMEs and start-ups and so on, we all know the problems, but one thing is for sure, without a financial system and a banking system we would not have an economy and without an economy we would not have a society. It is as simple as that. We cannot unfortunately separate one from the other. The role of the ECB in December and January in pumping that liquidity into the system right around the eurozone was crucial and was a direct response to the political agreement for the stability treaty. I believe we will see more flexibility and more advances. It has been incremental and it may be frustrating but guess what, we are dealing with 27 democracies, 27 governments often pulling in different directions, more often than not working together but not necessarily always agreeing together. That is the beauty of democracy and of the unique construct within the European Union and we have to respect that. Some might like if we could dictate to the Bundestag, the Assemblée Nationale or any other parliament but that is not the way it works. Nor can we dictate to Greece for that matter and on every occasion it has had to vote for these packages and bailout programmes. We have achieved a huge amount. We have seen major progress but we will see more and we need to see more.

I am a supporter of a policy of euro bonds, something for which I have been calling for many months, in fact since I was appointed more than a year ago. We have not got there yet but I believe we will get there. Anybody who believe it is a serious prospect that we will get there before we put in place binding and enforceable rules to govern our currency needs to get into the real world because it is not. A more robust and enhanced role for the ECB is something I and the Government very much support.

On the Deputy's question on the Balkans, I thank him for his continued interest, along with Deputy Mac Lochlainn and others, in this region. It is a cause for concern but also a cause for hope and optimism particularly because of Croatia's accession next year. The Deputy will be pleased to know that I will be travelling to the Balkans for a week in July and I will then travel on to Turkey. If memory serves me correctly, I will visit Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia. I may not be travelling to Serbia until September but I will certainly be travelling to Bosnia and will be there for the 20 year anniversary of the massacre there and I will then travel to Turkey where I will talk to representatives of the government. This is something I consider to be a priority. Some would say I should just be focusing on the existing member states of the European Union, but I disagree with that. Enlargement is hugely important. Reaching out to prospective member states and to the countries in the Balkans is extremely important, especially as the holder of the incoming Presidency of the EU. They really value our interest and are thrilled with the long-standing co-operation on the part of the Irish Defence Forces but also the political engagement from the Government. I look forward very much to that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must interrupt the Minister, as I have to call other Deputies.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I will come back to the questions on Iceland and development aid.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I have two questions, which are themes of the campaign, as the Minister of State, will know when I put them to her. The Government's plan A is to have a "Yes" vote on 31 May but a plan B may be required if the people vote "No". Will the Minister of State give a commitment in that event that she will not allow the blackmail clause, as it is referred to, which links the austerity treaty, as we call it, to the ESM? We have Article 136 and the amendments to it that give legal cover and sustenance for the ESM. If it did not, the European governments would not have pursued it. Why would one amend an article if it is not required? Therefore, it is required to give legal force to the ESM. This means the Government has the ability to use its unanimous veto to re-negotiate. To be very clear, in the event of a "No" vote will the Government use this power to seek to remove this link which was introduced at the very last stages, is menacing and is blurring the debate we need to have? There is a great amount of detail in Article 136 and the Government never answers the question so I am trying to make as clear as possible what is the question.

It is estimated that meeting the 0.5% structural deficit will require an additional €6 billion of cuts or increased taxation. How does the Minister of State propose to do this?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

With regard to the question on plan A I am still waiting for Sinn Féin to give us plan B and I look forward to the day when Deputy Mac Lochlainn, his leader and all front line advocates of a "No" vote will give us their plan B and tell us exactly with what they propose to replace the ESM. Will I commit to not ratifying the ESM? Certainly not. The Government is committed to ratification and implementation of the ESM. It would be akin to national treason to suggest otherwise.

On the Deputy's question on the supposed veto, let us remember the ESM will be established this summer on the basis of paid in capital. Once 90% of the paid in capital goes in and those countries who provide it assent, the ESM will be established. Even if we, with our 1.23%, were to decide we did not want the treaty to go ahead and we did not want to be part of it we cannot stop it. What the Deputy proposes is that in 12 months time, after the ESM has been established, is functional and is operational, we would then somehow try to dismantle it. The answer to this is a very resounding "No, we will not do this" particularly in 2013 when we will be exiting our programme. It is the very point in time when we will most need the insurance policy and safety net of the ESM to assist us. It would be quite a bizarre position for the Government to adopt to suggest we would try to dismantle or undo a fund that will already be in place at that point.

With regard to the €6 billion spending cuts or tax increase agenda which supposedly would have to be implemented in 2015 we must make clear that we exit the programme in 2015. A three year transition period is spelled out very clearly in the six pack during which we will be able to adjust in our own time and way, obviously in consultation with our European partners. This transition period exists for Ireland specifically. Transition periods will also apply to the other programme countries. We are speaking about 2018. A €6 billion figure in 2018 would be to suppose there would be no inflation or growth between now and then and I do not accept this. The Deputy's proposition is the very worst case scenario which ignores the three-year transition period, therefore I reject it completely and I do not agree with it. Seamus Coffey and a number of other economists have suggested that no adjustment would be required by 2018 because our growth and inflation would have us on track after we exit the programme and the three year transitional period so a €0 adjustment would be required.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will the Minister of State confirm what she just said because it was a pretty extraordinary statement? Does she seriously suggest that if the people vote "No" to the fiscal austerity treaty, as we call it, the Government will still commit up to €11 billion to the ESM and ratify the treaty?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is not €11 billion.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I have the explanatory memorandum for the Bill and I will read it in case Minister of State has not done so. It states, "Section 3 provides for payments to the ESM in respect of Ireland's contribution to the ESM's authorised capital stock to be paid out of the Central Fund. This provision caps payment at €11,145,400,400".

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Do you understand "cap"?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We will be on the hook for €11 billion. Is the Minister of State seriously telling us that even if the people vote "No" to the fiscal treaty the Government will still pay this money to the ESM? It is an extraordinary statement if it is true.

The Minister of State and the Government keep repeating that they are in favour of jobs and growth. Will the Minister of State tell us specifically what she is speaking about in terms of a stimulus for jobs and economic growth? Economist after economist, including Martin Wolf in The Irish Times today, state if we sign up to the provisions of the fiscal treaty it will rule out any substantial or meaningful financial stimulus and that all that will be available to governments are what are called “structural reforms”, which are more privatisation, property charges, water charges and downward pressure on wages and conditions for workers and workers’ rights because they will have given away the option of financial stimulus by signing up to the targets of the fiscal treaty.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Is that the European agenda? That is outrageous. Forty years of developing workers' rights-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Do not interrupt me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will finish the question first.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will you stop her from interrupting me?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

-----and you do not even have the grace to acknowledge it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Minister of State said there are certain optimistic economic projections for growth which means our worst case scenarios are not likely to be borne out. Will she explain why the Fiscal Advisory Council suggests if we are even 1% off on our growth forecasts over the next three years, and all of the forecasts and commentary suggests we may well be, instead of having to have €8.6 billion of cuts over the next three years we will need €13 billion in cuts? How the hell can we promote jobs and economic growth if, as is looking very likely, we are significantly off on the growth forecast?

To meet those debt targets we will have to reduce our debt by half. Just under half of our national debt is bank related debt. Is it not true that what the treaty actually requires is that over a 20 year period we will be forced to pay off the bankers' portion of the national debt? That is what it will require us to do.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

To deal with the last point, in the 1990s we more than halved our debt to GDP ratio while the debt was increasing through growth and inflation.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Where is the growth?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

To suggest there must be some sort of an armageddon to try to reduce our debt to GDP ratio is nonsense. With regard to the Deputy's threats on the potential of being 1% off, if he has his way our growth forecast could be much worse than 1% off target. The type of irresponsible posturing by him over the past number of weeks is much more likely to cost us growth and jobs and investment in this country.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It will be our fault not the Government's.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I know the Deputy does not like business people or people who create jobs or any type of stimulus to the economy other than the money he believes grows on trees, but why is it that pretty much everybody in the State who is involved in business or in any sense contributes to the economy or creates jobs advocates a "Yes" vote? It is extraordinary. It is an amazing coincidence that IBEC, the Small Firms Association, the Irish Farmers Association, the Irish Hotels Federation and 15 of the top global CEOs in the Internet and ICT sector all advocate a "Yes" vote with more and more coming out to do so every week. This morning I attended a Business for Ireland event-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

All the highly paid corporate executives.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

No, certainly not. They are people who cumulatively employ approximately 1 million people in the State.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They are overpaid corporate executives and do not pay tax.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

They do not just talk about jobs and growth. That is the Deputy's job. He talks about it, but they actually implement it. They put their money where their mouths are. We could do worse than listen to them.

The Deputy wants to know where the growth will emerge. Structural reforms are necessary. The European Union, as a hegemony, cannot afford to price itself out of the global market. We live in a globalised economy. We must trade and sell products and services all over the world and, in turn, we buy and consume them. That is the way the world works. If the Deputy wishes to turn off globalisation, he will have to travel back in time because it will not happen in 2012. Therefore, we need structural reforms.

To talk about a European Union that is obsessed with driving down living standards and the rights of members of society, workers and so forth is just farcical.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is what it is doing.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Consider what has happened in this country in the last 40 years. Look at the rights workers enjoy in this country in terms of working hours, pay and conditions, and equal pay for men and women. These would not have happened in this country without the European Union. At least Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn of Sinn Féin has the good grace to acknowledge that, but Deputy Boyd Barrett does not have that good grace. That is really unfortunate. It is very difficult to take lectures from the Deputy. I do not believe he asked a question as it was just a monologue.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I asked a question about specific proposals for jobs.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is all he can do. He has not put forward a single constructive idea throughout this campaign or today in the House. It is very difficult to listen to a litany of negativity without ever hearing anything constructive. This is supposed to be a debate about the Irish Presidency for 2013. Perhaps the Deputy will put on his thinking cap and when he next comes to the Dáil or attends an Oireachtas committee meeting to talk about the Presidency, he might bring some constructive suggestions.

Deputy Clare Daly

This is supposed to be a question and answer session in which Members on this side of the House ask questions and the Minister is supposed to answer them. I will deal with the facts in Europe on European day. There are 25 million people unemployed, the largest number since the start of the eurozone. It is largely a consequence of the policies of austerity being perpetrated throughout Europe. There is the same situation in Ireland where, despite all the Minister's waffle about job creation and the agencies speaking about job creation, there are 100,000 fewer people working now than was the case at the time of the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty. How does continuing with more of the same address the chronic unemployment situation not just in Ireland but throughout Europe?

My next question is about the ECB. The Minister spoke about the ECB releasing more than €1 trillion in funds at 1% to the banks and how this was such a great thing. Given that she told us she is leading the charge throughout Europe, which is totally laughable and nobody buys it for a minute, where is her commentary on the fact that the ECB should be releasing those funds to national governments to stimulate jobs programmes and so forth? If we ratify this treaty, that avenue will be excluded from us.

With regard to growth, the Minister continuously refers to the targeted cutbacks that will be necessary to achieve the austerity treaty targets. That has been supported by economists. Based on the Department's growth figures by 2015, the amount of extra cuts required will be €5.7 billion. The Minister's answer to that is to say it is only if the economy does not grow and if there is no inflation. The reality is that every growth projection figure from Government Departments has been wrong. Why will the Government get it right this time when it got it wrong every other time?

Deputy Mick Wallace

On the issue of democracy, the Minister said it would be undemocratic if we could more or less bully the Bundesbank into doing what we would like it to do, and I agree.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

The Bundestag. It is the parliament, not the bank.

Deputy Mick Wallace

My apologies. I meant to say Bundestag. I agree with the Minister, but does she not think it is quite undemocratic that it is telling us what to do and we have no say in the matter? The democratic deficit at the centre of power in Europe at present is frightening. It is obvious the people have a different opinion on how things should be done but it will not necessarily change how Germans perceive things. Does the Minister not think we should have a little more to say when talking to Chancellor Angela Merkel?

On the point the Minister made in response to Deputy Boyd Barrett about employers all voting "Yes", I still employ over 50 people in the restaurant and wine bar industry. I do not believe voting "Yes" will be good for small and medium-sized business, so I will be voting "No".

Deputy Joan Collins

The Minister spoke about the last 40 years and the brilliant things that have happened for Irish and European workers. The Celtic tiger economy and boom time throughout the world was due to globalisation and deregulation of the banking system, which poured loads of credit into economies and people's pockets. Over that period of time workers' rights were driven back. Most private companies now offer contract work, not full-time jobs. A major company such as Diageo, for example, has a workforce in which only 5% are full-time workers. The Minister referred to equal pay. In my old job, workers who are working side by side and doing the same job are on different levels of pay. That is also being driven down by the economy. The situation was not rosy beforehand and it is even less rosy now. How can the Minister stand over her point?

There are 25 million people unemployed in Europe. Under this treaty €166 billion could be cut across Europe. How will that bring growth into the economy? The Minister mentioned money growing on trees. Her Government's slash and burn policy will create no growth in the economies across Europe, and people are pointing that out. She also referred to IBEC and various businesses supporting the treaty. For the first time, however, three major unions - Mandate, UNITE and the TEEU - are opposing it, while SIPTU has said it would call for a "No" vote if there is no job or growth creation in the treaty. It is not the same as previously. The balance has changed in this regard. What is the Minister's opinion on that?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I will try to answer all the questions as quickly as possible. Both Deputy Daly and Deputy Collins referred to the 25 million unemployed people in the European Union. I do not dispute that there is a massive unemployment problem both in Ireland and many other European countries. However, it is not correct to state that we can continue spending money we simply do not have. It is just not possible. By saying that a "No" vote to austerity means the types of savings, cuts and tax increases that have happened and are happening will somehow not be required is not accurate. In fact, in saying "No" to austerity today one is potentially saying "Yes" to worse and more austerity in the future. While we all acknowledge the problem, we have a very different solution to it.

I do not accept that the reforms in this country are not beginning to work. I give credit to the late Brian Lenihan for the efforts he made to try to get our public finances under control during the last Dáil, but we are only half way there. There was a small sign of growth in 2011, at 0.7%, and it is anticipated that it will be similar this year. I wish that it were stronger, but we cannot work miracles. What we can do is try to be realistic and work within the parameters of the huge pressures on us in terms of the global downturn and particularly the European downturn, and the enormous challenge that poses for an export economy such as ours. If we are to believe that the solution is to send out a signal that we are not committed to our currency or that we do not want rules to govern that currency, that would be quite delusional and it would backfire.

With regard to the role of the ECB, I have a fundamentally different perspective from that of Deputy Daly. It is absolutely essential that we have a functioning financial and banking system. There is no way around that. Everybody wants the banks to lend and for credit to be made available to companies.

However, that will not be feasible in the absence of a robust and sustainable banking system and the role of the European Central Bank has been vital in this regard. The governing board of the ECB has taken a very strict interpretation of the treaty and of its capacity under the existing European treaties. I differ with its interpretation in this regard as I believe the ECB can do more. The Government is advocating that the ECB can do more and on this point, the Deputy and I are in agreement. While I could revert to the figure of €6 billion for 2015, I must reiterate it does not take into account the three-year transition period. Moreover, I do not accept the economy will not grow or there will be zero inflation for the next eight years.

As for Deputy Wallace's question on the Bundestag telling us what to do, this is not factually correct. Ireland will hold a referendum on this treaty and a robust debate on it is taking place. I disagree with the Deputy but I respect his right to make his point and to express his opinion, as I hope he accepts mine. This is the nature of the debate but the Irish people will make up their minds. No German citizen will make up their minds for them and nor will the Bundestag, as it is the Irish people who will make their decision. In their wisdom, they will make a decision, which I hope will be the outcome I advocate but it may not be. Consequently, I do not accept the point that we are being told or instructed what to do.

I already have dealt with the question from Deputy Joan Collins. On her point relating to the unions, the unions are split on this issue and a number of them have advocated a "Yes" vote, as is their entitlement. I travel around the country to meet representatives of chambers of commerce, as well as people from small and medium businesses, big companies and global investors, that is, from the entire spectrum. The vast majority of them - as in 99.9% - as well as all the business representative bodies, advocate a "Yes" vote to retain jobs and stability in the country and to keep investment flowing in. I do not believe these figures can be disputed because this is the fact.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand there was provision for a five-minute conclusion. Has the Minister of State anything else to add?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I believe we have gone seven minutes over time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is fine. Is it agreed to leave it at that? Agreed.