Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 May 2012

Vol. 766 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

Services for People with Disabilities

Deputy Derek Nolan

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this topic and in particular I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to reply. She will be familiar with the issue, as she has responded to a previous Topical Issue question on the matter. Some 700 children with disabilities - some moderate and some profound and severe intellectual disabilities - in the education sector are about to turn 18. The issue is coming to the fore now because these children will no longer have access to those services next month. Great uncertainty is being created for the families and it is causing undue stress for them. What appears to be happening, and Deputy Walsh and Deputy Kyne are hearing this too, is a back and forth between the HSE and the service providers. The service providers say they simply do not have the funding to deal with the issue, cannot cope within existing resources and that they are being forced to do a job they cannot do. The HSE says there is a service plan in place and it must be implemented. The exact details therein are disputed between the two parties.

I have met, with other Deputies and separately, with the Brothers of Charity services in Galway. I have gone through the books with the Brothers of Charity and sat down with their chief financial officer and CEO to look at the cuts they are implementing this year and the cuts that were implemented over previous years. It is hard to see how they can cope with the increased demand if they take on these cases without extra resources. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will be aware that in County Galway 44 people are leaving this month, eight of whom have severe to profound intellectual disabilities. The HSE and the service providers must come up with a solution quickly and I ask the Minister of State to intervene on the matter.

Deputy Brian Walsh

I agree with the sentiments expressed by my colleague, Deputy Nolan. Deputy Kyne, Deputy Nolan and I visited the Brothers of Charity services in Galway in the last few days. They provide an exceptional service to the people of Galway city and county. That is replicated by a host of service providers throughout the country. It is an essential service.

We discussed some of the figures involved. There has been a cut of 14% since 2009 across the board nationally but in Galway's case, due to a moratorium cut in 2010, its cut in the corresponding period was 18%. It is a cut to the bone in respect of Galway. Approximately 85% of the budget the service receives is pay related and under the terms of the Croke Park agreement that cannot be touched. Therefore, this year's cut of 3.7% under the service plan actually represents a 24.6% cut in non-pay items. They are, essentially, front line services. All the cuts must be applied to non-pay items due to the Croke Park agreement.

I ask the Minister to examine this issue. It is an area that is close to the Minister's heart and she has shown great leadership in the disability sector since her appointment to office. I am aware there is a question about the number of CEOs in the employment of the Brothers of Charity, which the Minister might address in her response. In the case of Galway, however, and the salary that applies, I am sure each of them would gladly drop the title "CEO" in the morning if it helped the case. It is simply a title. There is a budget of almost €50 million in Galway and somebody at managerial level is required to manage that. There are 1,000 staff to be managed in the services provided in Galway alone. A manager is required to provide that service, whether one calls the person a CEO or otherwise. I echo the sentiments expressed so far and I ask the Minister of State to intervene in this case.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome the Minister of State. I concur with what has been said by my colleagues. When we met with the representatives of the Brothers of Charity services in Galway last Friday they went through the figures and the cuts they have endured. There have been three consecutive years of cuts amounting to a cumulative reduction of €10.5 million, with €4.6 million of this accounted for in salary reductions for staff and the remainder of €5.9 million in the funding of service delivery. This information is available in their annual report. The Brothers of Charity have endeavoured to protect front line services, and 70% of the budget cuts have been achieved through efficiency, productivity and procurement measures. This includes significant reconfiguration of management structures, rationalisation of administrative supports and savings on such things as transport, maintenance, catering, reductions in staff travel and changes in skill mix.

After three years of cuts, the Brothers of Charity in Galway have utilised the reserves they prudently saved for a rainy day. At this stage, however, they do not know how they will bridge the gap in services. As my colleagues pointed out, eight young adults with profound disabilities are leaving the centre this year. There is huge concern about their future and the families have great uncertainty, which is compounding the challenges which the parents and young adults face each day. Over the last number of years the future of similar young adults has only been sorted out late in the day, often at the end of August. We appreciate the current financial position, but the Brothers of Charity have a number of care staff and thus a high salary bill, which is protected by the Croke Park agreement. They have done all they can to find savings.

I have written to John Hennessy of HSE West and I ask the Minister to liase with that body to ensure that the front line services in Galway are protected. There is little point in fixing the economic and financial situation in this country if we will not protect the most vulnerable young adults who had no hand, act or part in our present economic difficulties.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I assume I have an extra two minutes as well.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has four minutes anyway.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I was joking.

I thank the Deputies for raising this issue. As Deputy Nolan correctly pointed out, I am acutely aware of the difficulties we face at this time which, as Deputy Kyne rightly said, is quite late in the day. I hope to deal with that in the supplementary remarks.

I am pleased to take this opportunity to outline, on behalf of the Minister for Health, the position relating to the matter raised by Deputies Kyne, Walsh and Nolan. I recognise the importance of life skills training and day services to people with disabilities who are leaving the education system and every effort is being made within available resources to provide services to all in 2012. Day services for adults with disabilities provide a network of support for more than 25,000 people who have a wide spectrum of need, ranging from those with severe and profound disabilities, who are likely to need long-term specialist service provision, to people with lower support needs and greater potential for community participation and inclusion. Organisations such as the Brothers of Charity play a vital part in providing these services and I acknowledge their contribution not just this year or last year but at a time when the State was not providing them.

The HSE, through its occupational guidance service, works with schools, service providers, service users and families to identify the needs of young people with disabilities who are due to complete their second level education. The aim is to address the needs of individuals in the following ways - health funded rehabilitative life skills training; health funded day services; FÁS funded vocational training; and, extension to education placement for a specified time.

Service providers and the HSE have come together under the auspices of the national consultative forum to identify how the needs of those individuals who require day services or rehabilitative training places in 2012 can be responded to within available resources. I have asked to be kept informed of progress on this issue on a weekly basis. The national consultative forum recognises that the key to ensuring that available resources for people with disabilities are used to best effect is through constructive collaboration between non-statutory providers and the HSE. The demand for services for school leavers continues to grow. The HSE expects that approximately 700 school leavers will require services in 2012, of which 135 are in HSE West.

Disability services will be required to cater for demographic pressures, such as new services for school leavers and emergency residential placements from within their existing budgets. The 2012 budgets have been reduced by 3.7% and the moratorium on staff recruitment gives rise to challenges in service provision. In addition, the physical capacity to provide further services may not be present in all agencies, and that is recognised. However, both the voluntary sector and the HSE are committed to the best use of available resources in a creative and flexible manner so as to be as responsive as possible to the needs of this cohort.

The emerging Department of Health policy direction, namely, the value for money and policy review, coupled with recommendations from HSE national working groups on key service areas, including the review of HSE-funded adult day services, emphasise the need for a new model of service provision that, if agreed by the Government, will further the independence of people with disabilities in a manner which is efficient and cost-effective. New Directions, the review of HSE-funded adult day services, was published on 29 February 2012 with a detailed implementation plan. A working group will be established this month under the auspices of the national consultative forum to ensure that implementation plan is progressed through a collaborative approach. I thank the Deputies and look forward to the questions that arise from this response.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I acknowledge the Minister of State's comment that she is on top of the brief and is acutely aware of the position. Having discussed the matter personally with the Minister of State, I was aware of that. However, these services are due to end within a month and while, as the Minister of State noted, consultation is ongoing on a continuous basis between the service providers and the consultation body no resolution has yet emerged. No answers or concrete measures are forthcoming and the impression being given to the Members who raised this issue by the service providers is they are not in a position financially to do it. This back and forth between these two bodies is leaving the individuals in a really difficult position. I refer to the cases about which one hears and the people who I met last Monday at the Brothers of Charity annual general meeting, who are in a really difficult position, some of whom have such severe, shocking and saddening disabilities that one cannot stop one's heart from going out to them.

I ask whether an intervention can take place to force them to agree finally on something, because this cannot continue. It is unprofessional and is a poor reflection on both the service providers and the HSE if they allow this position to continue. I completely support the ideas put forward in the New Direction policy review, which is the way to go. However, if the Minister of State has an opportunity in the future to visit the Brothers of Charity services in Galway, I would be greatly appreciative, were she to take the time to so do and to review their position personally.

Deputy Brian Walsh

I note the Minister of State's response indicated this must be catered for within existing budgets. I again stress to her that in the case of the Brothers of Charity in Galway, this simply is not there as the budget has been cut to the bone as it is. What will happen is some families who may be receiving two or three nights of respite per month will become the focus of the cuts. Such respite is a lifeline for them and as it is the only respite they receive, I again appeal to the Minister of State. I note that €10 million was found last year to look after demographic funding. The Galway services looked after five school leavers with profound intellectual disabilities, at a cost of €270,000, but that figure now has risen to eight. While 44 people are leaving the Galway services, eight of those children have profound intellectual disabilities and I again appeal to the Minister of State to examine closely the budgets to try to re-establish this fund for 2012.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for her response and like my colleagues, I welcome the initiatives under the New Direction policy review. The Minister of State indicated the working group will be established this month, which is welcome in respect of implementation of the plan. However, as I stated, the Brothers of Charity have informed the Members present that their reserves are gone. While they had been prudent for a number of years and had been able to put aside money, these reserves now are gone. The families are in a position similar to that which has obtained in recent years, in which a solution always has been found at the 11th hour. At present, they are wondering whether a solution will be found this year and as matters stand, they are contacting us in a state of panic and uncertainty. Deputies Nolan, Walsh and I have been told of the structure these young adults have had in their lives for many years, which is the bus comes for them and that is what they know. They wait for the bus but the day will come when the bus will not and their parents are worried about what will happen then. I again ask the Minister of State to do everything she can to ensure that funding is provided within the Brothers of Charity for these services.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

In response to Deputy Nolan, I intend to travel to Galway next Monday and as per his request earlier today, I will meet the Brothers of Charity. While I will meet them, it is important to make a clear point. As the Deputies rightly have noted, not alone was a last-minute reprieve granted each year but additional money was given. Incidentally, the additional money, amounting to €1 million per year, was not something to be sneezed at but was a considerable amount of money on top of the budget. Despite this money being provided on foot of signing a service level agreement, every year there is this crisis and no plan has been put in place. It is both known and can be predicted into the future exactly how many children and how many young adults will need a service. I have every sympathy with families and am deeply aware of the type of difficulties into which they now see themselves facing. It is not that I am unaware of it, as I am, but a more structured approach really must be put in place. There is no more money there. I have been through all this and have made it clear there is no additional money. It strikes me that instead of considering different approaches to respite or day services, none of this has been done. Why would service providers not believe additional money would be made available at the last minute, as though there was some sort of golden pot out there? That no longer is the case and those days are gone. A structure really must be put in place that will give families certainty about where their children and adults will be into the future.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joanna Tuffy)

The Minister of State's time is up.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

That is what is important and the Government is working through that process. It will intensify its efforts and will be obliged to take a serious look at how things are done in the future and how one can make people with disabilities more independent. We must work through that process collectively and must ensure this happens. I will keep a very close eye on it this year and am being briefed on a weekly basis. Things can happen such as, for instance, collaboration on back-office processes and not the front-line stuff. Equally, I note that disability is not a poor service and enormous amounts of money are being spent on disability. I believe it can be done differently and a better service can be provided. I acknowledge a point comes at which one is able to do less with less. I am not foolish enough to believe such a point will not be reached, although I hope not. However, a different service must be delivered that will be more beneficial to people with disabilities and their families.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joanna Tuffy)

The Minister of State is well over time.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

As a final point, in saying this, Members should be eternally grateful to service providers who gave a service when the State did not. I do not dismiss that either but the Government is working through it and will do its best to ensure people have the type of security into the future they deserve.

Tax Collection

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Yesterday, there was a debacle in County Donegal when officials from Revenue and agents acting on its behalf sought to remove machinery from Highland Bakery, which is located on the outskirts of Letterkenny. The employees working there then barricaded themselves in and a stand-off ensued between Revenue officials and the staff there. The background to this matter is that like many good businesses, the owner has got into difficulties and owes money to Revenue. While he does not dispute this, the issue is how can a sustainable repayment plan be arrived at. At present, the owner, Kevin Bradley, is being asked to repay €20,000 per month, which is not sustainable. The question and dilemma for Revenue is there are 28 workers and 15 drivers involved, making 43 employees in total. If one multiplies that number by the €20,000 per year each it would cost the State, the final amount this would cost the State per year runs to hundreds of thousands of euro. I appeal to the Revenue Commissioners to engage immediately with the owner, who has assured Deputy Doherty and I that he wants to resolve this issue and maintain his business, in respect of which he has a full order book. Like many other businesses, while previously he was paid upon delivery it is often a month or longer now before he gets paid. As such, he has difficulties with cash flow.

I assure the Minister that the owner wants to repay what he owes but on a sustainable basis. I appreciate that Revenue has a job to do and that the taxes it collects are required to run our health and education services and so on. However, I appeal to the Minister and his officials to intervene to resolve this problem and, more important, to ensure jobs are saved in Donegal, where, as the Minister will be aware, there is a huge problem in terms of unemployment and emigration. The business concerned has been successful and can continue to be successful with some assistance from the Minister.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

As stated by Deputy Mac Lochlainn, this issue relates to a company that has been trading in Donegal for well over a decade. I appreciate that Revenue is independent and has to a job to do, which it does well, in terms of the collection of outstanding tax liabilities. The problem is that the scope of Revenue is to collect as much tax as possible without factoring in the wider impact in this regard. For example, had workers not barricaded themselves into the factory yesterday and the sheriff had gained access with his low loaders and taken away machinery, all of them would have been heading to the social welfare office today, which would, as stated by Deputy Mac Lochlainn, cost the State, on average, €800,000 per annum or €20,000 per person, which is disproportionate to the tax liability of the individual concerned.

The individual concerned wants to pay his liability but to do so in a manner which allows him to sustain his business. While I accept that Revenue is independent, I ask that the Minister intervene in some way to resolve this issue, which does not only affect Highland Bakery. I was contacted this morning by a constituent who has been given seven days to pay half of his tax liability, which is impossible for him to do, or the sheriff will be called in, following which 14 people will lose their jobs. I was also contacted last week by another individual who, having been visited by the sheriff the day after he paid his liability, in respect of which I accept payment was late, must now pay sheriff's fees. I spoke in committee about a young girl who had set up her own business in which she employed another individual. She was visited by the sheriff in respect of a €2,000 tax liability and had to scrape and scrounge to get the money together to ensure her equipment was not repossessed but as a result of which she had to lay off her employee. There are 21,000 unemployed people in Donegal.

While I accept that Revenue has a job to do, putting these companies out of business will cost the State more money in the long term. Each of the companies concerned is willing to enter into a phased repayment arrangement with Revenue. I appreciate there are chancers who have money and assets who do not want to pay their taxes. However, I am assured that some of the individuals of whom I speak have already paid their bills but are being charged additional fees by sheriffs. While I accept that sheriffs have a job to do, their actions infringe on the mental health of individuals who are struggling and do not wish to put other people out of work.

There has been much talk about job creation. Some 42 jobs are at risk in Highland Bakery and 12 jobs are at risk in the other company, the details of which I can give to the Minister at a later stage if he so wishes. I ask the Minister to review the wider scope of Revenue and the impact of repossessions which automatically close companies. In terms of Highland Bakery, if this matter is not resolved 42 people will lose their jobs, which will have other spill over effects in terms of non-payment of bank and other liabilities and a loss of revenue to the State by way of payment of PAYE, PRSI, the universal social charge and so on.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael Noonan)

I thank Deputies Mac Lochlainn and Doherty for raising this matter. I believe it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment on any alleged or perceived dispute between Revenue and an individual taxpayer or business. For reasons of taxpayer confidentiality, Revenue cannot disclose details of or comment publicly on the specific affairs of any individual business or taxpayer, which is entirely appropriate. I also believe that intervention by me in a dispute between Revenue and a particular business or taxpayer would not be appropriate.

It is a long standing convention that the Minister for Finance does not intervene in matters of dispute between Revenue and an individual taxpayer. In that context, I remind the House of the provision at section 101 of the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act 2011 enacted last year by the Oireachtas which provides for the independence of the Revenue Commissioners in the performance of its functions.

Revenue plays a critical role in securing and delivering a significant part of the financial resources required by Government to provide services and facilities for all our citizens. A delay in collection of the revenues due impacts on the level and timeliness of financial resources available to Government. It also facilitates those who withhold tax and PRSI payments and use those moneys to improve cash flow to gain an unfair competitive advantage over tax compliant competitors. The primary goal of the Revenue Commissioners is to ensure that all taxpayers and businesses meet their tax and customs obligations in a timely fashion. It expects that taxpayers and business organise their financial affairs to ensure that they pay their tax and PRSI debts on time. In this regard, Revenue promotes and supports voluntary compliance by facilitating taxpayers and businesses in meeting their obligations in as easy a way as possible through the provision of a quality customer service.

I am satisfied that Revenue approaches the task of securing the collection of the critical taxes and duties payable to the State in an efficient manner. Internationally, Ireland is among those countries that make it easiest for taxpayers to pay their taxes. Revenue is very conscious of the difficult economic and financial climate that prevails and of the challenges for business in being timely compliant. Since the start of the economic downturn, Revenue has responded by actively encouraging businesses experiencing particular payment difficulties to work proactively with them when such difficulties start to arise. This approach is designed to facilitate the identification and development of an agreed approach between Revenue and the businesses concerned to those difficulties so as to quickly restore voluntary timely compliance. Revenue has developed an administrative framework to manage such cases, and has published on its website comprehensive material and guidance for businesses experiencing tax payment difficulties. I am aware that tax practitioners and representative bodies have acknowledged Revenue's very positive efforts in this regard.

Revenue will endeavour to work with a viable business towards resolving the issues giving rise to default in making its tax payments. It has worked successfully with thousands of businesses over the past number of years in addressing such difficulties, thus saving further thousands of jobs that would otherwise have been lost. I am advised by Revenue that crucial to the success of its approach is meaningful, realistic and early engagement by the business or taxpayer concerned.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank the Minister for his response. I accept that the Minister is unable to intervene for legal reasons. However, it is, as Deputy Doherty pointed out, critical in the case of Highland Bakery that Revenue look at the wider impact of an unsustainable repayment plan. The cost to the State, in terms of social welfare payments if the 42 employees lose their jobs, will be €20,000 per person or €800,000 per annum, which is multiples of the amount owed. Surely, it makes sense for Revenue to put in place a sustainable repayment plan.

The business owner was recently involved in an accident, which may have caused some difficulties in terms of communications. While I accept that Revenue must be independent of the political system, it is hoped it will listen to our views in terms of the economic environment and our belief that this matter can be resolved. It is hoped that following this unfortunate stand-off, which is not in anybody's interests, Revenue will engage with the business owner and agree on a sustainable repayment plan that is in everybody's interest.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I will just add to that and reiterate that Revenue is very efficient. There have been weaknesses in the past but it does its job well. There is no doubt the sheriff could have got access to Highland Bakery yesterday. The low loaders and lorries were there and were taking away the machinery. Only the workers were left, who barricaded themselves in. If the sheriff gets access to that business, he will be able to recoup the money on behalf of Revenue.

The Minister, as Minister for Finance, this Parliament and this State will be down more money, as Deputy Mac Lochlainn acknowledged; some €800,000 for 42 employees. There is very little opportunity for any of those workers to find a job in County Donegal, which has 21,000 people unemployed. I realise Revenue is working with other businesses and that is fine, but there are four files on my table, as I explained to the Minister, on which they are not working. The people in question are willing to pay their liabilities but in a way that can sustain employment.

I know the Minister has limitations in this regard but I ask him to look at the role of Revenue, a role that might have been fit for purpose in better times. Perhaps it needs a direction or a change of legislation. At this time, however, when jobs are our number one priority, Revenue must take on board the impact of closing down a business. As the Minister remarked, it is not solely about recouping outstanding liabilities for the taxpayer. If there is a need for amendment in that regard, we would support it.

I know Revenue has to push the owners of companies such as this as far as it can but if it pushes them too far it will close down the company, there will be a loss of tax revenue and people will be unemployed.

Deputy Michael Noonan

Usually the sheriff arrives only after many other approaches have been made by Revenue. It is usually a recourse of last resort. If I may suggest it, the Deputies are entitled under law to make representations to Revenue on behalf of a constituent. There is nothing improper in that as has been made clear on a number of occasions. The Deputies should probably talk in the first instance to the company's accountants so that they are not at cross purposes, proposing something different from what has been proposed. They will also need the written permission of the person they represent so that they do not breach the confidentiality Revenue needs to maintain with a taxpayer.

I am probably the last person in the House who can approach the Revenue because I have to maintain a very strict relationship and respect its independence. There is nothing improper, however, if the Deputies take up the cause and approach Revenue directly.

Northern Ireland Issues

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, who I presume is taking this item.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Especially for the Deputy.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I thank the Minister of State. We are getting used to these exchanges.

One of the sad points about this is that we are obliged to have a discussion about it at all. Dissident republican activity has been escalating in recent months. A significant number of bombs have been located and diffused by Army experts and Derry has been rocked by explosions earlier in the year. This is compounded by splinter republican groups, such as RAAD in Derry, which continue to terrorise their communities. Continued cross-Border co-operation on dissident groups between security forces needs to be maintained and developed. Continued investment in areas blighted by paramilitary activity should remain a priority for both the Government and the Opposition.

Last night in Derry the police found a number of explosive devices in a flat and arrested a man suspected of republican dissident activity. Police stated the devices were found in a flat in a built-up residential area and could have caused significant damage or serious harm. Residents, including elderly people, children and disabled people were evacuated from the area. This highlights the ongoing threat that dissident republican activity represents to the lives of ordinary decent families throughout the North of Ireland.

On Monday last, seven men engaged in dissident republican activity were charged with engaging in conduct in preparation for committing acts of terrorism, possession of a firearm andammunition, and attending a place used for terrorist training. The men were charged with offences relating to an alleged terrorist training camp near Omagh. Clearly, these groups are organised and attempting to upskill and ramp up their terrorist activity. In January of this year two bombs exploded in Derry, for which the Real IRA was presumed to be responsible. We know the Real IRA has an active unit in Derry which has been responsible for a number of attacks on symbolic targets across the city. Two years ago the terror group bombed a branch of theRoyal Bank of Scotland-owned Ulster Bank, and last year admitted responsibility for two bomb attacks on branches of the Bank of Santander.

The Republican Action Against Drugs, RAAD, group was highlighted on last night's "Prime Time" programme. This is a vigilante group associated with dissident republican activity and was set up four years ago. RAAD bombs, shoots, exiles and threatens those it decides are guilty of drug dealing or anti-social behaviour. It is a small organisation, with an estimated membership of between 20 and 50, but it is having an extraordinarily chilling effect on a city that is to be the 2013 City of Culture. Reports indicate there have been at least 26 RAAD shootings in the Derry area which resulted in casualties. The group has detonated 21 pipe bombs. Community activists estimate that RAAD has threatened around 200 young men from Derry and exiled as many as 30 in the past three years.

In February, RAAD murdered a Derry native, Andrew Allen, near Buncrana, County Donegal. Its activities have spilled over the Border, therefore, as it hunts down people it believes to be guilty of drug dealing. It must be put on record that the Allen family completely rejects this accusation. RAAD told "Prime Time" it intends to begin targeting the Police Service of Northern Ireland. This would mark a major escalation of its campaign of violence and would further threaten the peace process and the normalisation of life in the Six Counties.

The PSNI's success against RAAD has been poor so far, with no prosecutions to date for any RAAD shooting and only three prosecutions for other crimes committed by suspected members of this organisation. The PSNI says it needs more co-operation from the community to get convictions and points out that even those that RAAD has shot are typically too afraid to give adequate witness statements.

The key to solving these problems is targeting investment in areas which are affected by dissident activity and ensuring that these communities co-operate with the PSNI investigations intothe criminal group, RAAD, and other dissident republican activities. EU funding and cross-Border initiatives should continue to focus on developing these areas and strengthening the normalisation process. The spill-over of violence across the Border highlights the need for ongoing co-operation between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána. Information sharing and an assessment of the threat in places like Derry should be shared amongst the forces.

Details of the exiling of people, as picked up by the PSNI, should be forwarded to the Garda as many of these individuals who are forced into exile live in the Republic.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Lucinda Creighton)

I am replying to this matter in the absence of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore. The peace process and the Good Friday Agreement have resulted in a transformation of society in Northern Ireland, perhaps most visibly in the normalisation of daily life and the dramatic decrease in terrorist-related incidents and violence. There remains, however, as the Deputy rightly pointed out, a substantial threat from so-called dissident republican paramilitary groups who continue to assert their determination to impose violence and a return to conflict on the people of Ireland towards an as-yet undefined end.

The threats to peace as posed by dissident groups are undoubtedly serious. Since 2009, a series of violent attacks by these dissident groups have taken place, resulting in injuries and in the deaths of two British Army personnel and two Catholic PSNI officers. The deaths of Sappers Quinsey and Azimkar and Constables Carroll and Kerr, and the continuing threats against the Police Service of Northern Ireland, are viewed with widespread revulsion across society on the island of Ireland. It is clear that these people enjoy no popular support within the community. They have nothing to offer the people of Ireland. They have been overwhelmingly rejected. Nothing showed this more clearly than the united cross-community response to the brutal murder of Constable Kerr just over a year ago. It is evident too in the more recent response by the people of Derry to publicly protest against the mindless actions of a minority who seek to impose their will on the community through violence. Strong and deepening co-operation between the Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland is doing much to counter such individuals and groups, who are flying in the face of the clearly and democratically expressed will of all the Irish people who share the island of Ireland. The number of arrests in connection with dissident activity made in both jurisdictions continues to be significant. The Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland will continue to co-operate closely to combat dissident activity on both sides of the Border. The joint statement by the Taoiseach and the UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, on British-Irish relations in March of this year underlined the wish of both governments to see Northern Ireland move from peace to reconciliation and prosperity. Our joint efforts in support of these objectives must and will continue. Above all, we stand together with the people of Northern Ireland and its Executive in our determination to make sure they are never again blighted by violent conflict.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I welcome the Minister of State's statement that there is close co-operation between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda. It is vital for that to continue. There is a need for initiatives in the Twenty-six Counties area to counter dissident activity. As we are well aware, it is happening here as well. We need to be conscious that the areas of greatest deprivation in the Six Counties are the most fruitful recruitment grounds for these dissidents. There needs to be a strong resolve on the parts of the British and Irish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure there is a continued flow of targeted investment to combat disadvantage in such areas. I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me in that regard. Perhaps she can give some specific details of what the British and Irish Governments are doing to ensure these areas are developed. That is necessary to encourage people to move away from the path of violence and to reduce the attraction of dissident groups for young unemployed males, in particular.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is not really for me to provide specific details on what is being done in this regard. I am sure the Tánaiste will discuss the matter with the Deputy in the House when he gets an opportunity to do so. It is clear that substantial funding is being spent through various North-South initiatives on either side of the Border. I agree with the Deputy that the most logical way of proceeding in this regard is by tackling the most disadvantaged and deprived areas. He alluded to the substantial EU funding that is being spent on cross-Border co-operation through the PEACE and INTERREG projects. I hope and believe we will be able to secure continued funding during the negotiations on the new budget outline for the period between 2014 and 2020. Resources are being channelled in a strategic and targeted way. The Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda Commissioner have both gone on the record to acknowledge the excellent relationship they have and to emphasise their joint determination to target security and policing problems. I hope everybody in this House is united on the need to ensure we can end this scourge both North and South of the Border.

Schools Building Projects

Deputy Simon Harris

I am pleased to have an opportunity to raise this issue, along with Deputy Boyd Barrett, in the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon. I am raising the need for a new school building at Newpark Comprehensive School in Blackrock, County Dublin. This issue affects many of my constituents in the north Wicklow area who attend the school in question. When the school was built in 1972, it was designed to cater for a maximum of 400 students in a building that was due to last for 20 years. At present, the school has 830 students, which is a real sign of its success in the community and the high regard in which it is held. It is about to celebrate its 40th anniversary in the same building, which was supposed to have been replaced after 20 years. The school first made contact with the then Department of Education regarding the need for a replacement building as long ago as 1995. Although many years have elapsed since then, it continues to find itself in this difficult situation. In February 2000, the Department's own inspectors published a report stating that a new building was required. Nine years later, the Department approved a new building at Newpark Comprehensive School to go to tender. Planning permission was granted by An Bord Pleanála in March 2011. The project was listed on the eTenders website in November 2011.

The Minister of State will understand the deep sense of disappointment among the students, parents and teachers at Newpark Comprehensive School, as well as the wider community, when the Minister, Deputy Quinn, announced in the 2012-16 schools building programme that the construction of a new school building would not take place until 2015 or 2016. This news was a source of substantial frustration because the school had been waiting for a long time for the new building that had been deemed necessary by the Department's inspectors. While we welcome the school building programme and the continued investment in schools, there has to be a degree of flexibility within the programme to allow schools that are urgently needed to be developed at a quicker pace. Newpark Comprehensive School is the only non-fee paying Church of Ireland school in a very wide area. I can go through some of the detail of the real issues that need to be resolved at the school with the Minister of State if he wishes. This matter needs to be attended to much more quickly. We welcome the fact that construction of a new school building is on the list, but it needs to happen now rather than in 2015.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I have to admit a certain personal interest in this matter. I am the father of a child who attends Newpark Comprehensive School. Another one of my children will go there in a few years time. As Deputy Harris said, Newpark Comprehensive School caters for 830 children. It is one of the few non-fee paying secondary schools in its large catchment area, which extends from County Wicklow to parts of Dublin like Booterstown and Mount Merrion that are closer to the city centre. I suggest that the current economic crisis will lead to an increase in the demand for non-fee paying schools. I cannot overstate the anger, frustration and disappointment of the parents, staff and students of the school when they heard the news in December of last year - 17 years after the Department accepted that the school needed a new building, such was its level of dilapidation even at that stage - that it was not listed to receive the rebuild that was expected to take place this year.

The school has spent 17 years going through all the hoops, working up designs, getting planning permission, going through appeals and battling to get its dilapidated building rebuilt. Even though the Department accepts a new building is needed, it has taken the school off the list and said the rebuild will not happen until 2015. Tiles are falling off the roof of the school. Its science laboratories do not have proper running water all of the time. It has lighting problems and disability access problems. There are rotten smells in the school corridors. The science rooms are not of the standard required to deliver the science syllabus. In many cases, the toilets are completely inadequate. There are problems with people tripping over, etc., because of problems with the floors. There are all sorts of problems. The school is seriously dilapidated. The Department accepted 17 years ago that a new school was needed. I urge the Minister and the Department to deliver the rebuild of this school. It should not be delayed until 2015. It should be put back on the list for this year or for 2013, at the very latest.

(Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I am responding to the Deputies who have raised this Topical Issue on behalf of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Quinn. I thank the Deputies for giving me an opportunity to outline the Government's strategy for capital investment in education projects over the next five years and to clarify the current position in respect of the provision of new building at Newpark Comprehensive School in Blackrock, County Dublin. The building project at the school has been included in the five-year construction programme and is scheduled to commence construction in 2015-16. It is one of 275 projects which have been scheduled to commence construction over the five years of the programme. In scheduling when each project can proceed to construction, the Department has to take account of the funding available annually and the requirement to provide additional school places to meet the increasing demographic needs the Minister outlined when he launched the programme. In summary, those demographic needs involve a total national enrolment which is expected to grow by around 70,000 students between now and 2018. This will entail an increase of over 45,000 at primary level and 25,000 at post-primary, while second level enrolment is expected to continue to rise thereafter until at least 2024. As the Deputies may be aware, in June 2011 the Minister announced that 20 new post-primary schools are to be established up to 2017 across a number of locations to cater for the increasing student numbers at post-primary level alone - that is 20 new schools which are currently not in existence.

The design of the proposed new school building for Newpark comprehensive has been developed based on a long-term projected enrolment of at least 800 students - the current enrolment is 831. A stage 2(b) submission was received in the Department on 4 May and is currently under review. Once that review is complete, the Department will be in contact with the school authority. However, due to the financial constraints imposed by the need to prioritise the funding available each year for the provision of new school accommodation to meet the increasing demographic requirements, the project for Newpark comprehensive has been scheduled to commence construction in 2015-16.

Deputy Simon Harris

I appreciate the Minister of State's response. I ask that he asks the Department officials to reconsider this issue. The Department has recognised the need for this new school build; it is clearly a matter of timing and of priority. If one looks at the overall list, there is scope for a degree of flexibility for the very reasons outlined by Deputy Boyd Barrett in regard to the very serious issues in terms of health and safety, the wide catchment area the school is appealing to in terms of its denominational background and the provision of the science syllabus, given that, according to the Department inspectors, the science labs cannot meet the new science syllabus. As an extra kick in the teeth, funding has been withheld from the school for the upgrade of those labs because it had been promised the new school building.

There is a real need to show there can be flexibility in this list. I ask the Minister of State to ask his officials to reconsider this. In light of the case I and Deputy Boyd Barrett have presented today, I hope a successful resolution can be found and that this school, which is much needed and has been long awaited, is delivered as quickly as possible.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Minister of State's response is not adequate. The parents, students and staff have been fighting for this school and they have gone through all the hoops for 17 years. The Department has long since accepted the urgent need to rebuild this school to enable it to deliver the education syllabus and to provide adequate surroundings in order for 830 students to learn. At present, the school is a health and safety hazard. It is not suitable for the job it is supposed to do, namely, to teach more than 800 young people and educate them properly. It is not fair on the students, staff and parents to delay this when they have done everything right and when the Department itself has accepted they deserve this rebuild.

I appeal to and urge the Minister to reconsider this and to give a commitment that the rebuild of Newpark school will go ahead this year or at the very latest next year, as was expected and as the Department had indicated would happen. It is simply not fair, justified or acceptable that this should be delayed for another few years which, I suspect, would leave parents, students and staff believing they will never get the rebuild and that it will always - again and again - be put on the long finger when it is so urgently needed. Will the Minister of State give a commitment that he will review this and do something to help the extreme anger and frustration of the parents, staff and students of Newpark, who deserve their new school?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I will certainly undertake to pass on the concerns of both Deputies to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and in turn I assume they will be passed on to the officials in the Department's building unit. The first point is that one of the reasons this list was published was to provide complete transparency in the school building programme, something we have not had in the past. In the past, as Deputy Boyd Barrett noted, boards of management were obliged constantly to liaise and, indeed, pressurise the building unit in Tullamore to deliver on particular projects. Boards of management and parents were not aware at any point where they stood in terms of having their school developed. What the Minister, Deputy Quinn, sought to do with the publication of this list was to bring complete clarity to that situation, which is very much welcomed by the vast majority of boards of management across the country, particularly those fortunate enough to be on the list.

Second, some 275 projects are included in the list and it physically is not possible to get all of them off the ground within the first couple of years. Third, the decision for the phasing of these was built around very sound data from the CSO and the Department of Social Protection in regard to children's allowance records in each area. One can only conclude that the officials in the building unit made the decision to phase in Newpark in Blackrock towards the end of the five-year programme based on the demographic challenges that are arising within its catchment area.

I would argue the school is most fortunate to be on the list because, since that list was published, I and I am sure the Deputies have had numerous communications from other schools that were not fortunate enough to be on the list. Other schools are waiting far longer than 17 years. I visited one school recently where the first, second and third years are accommodated in a building that was built in the late 19th century, is completely unsuitable to the needs of a modern school and is inherently dangerous. Those schools were also on the cusp of going to development and some already had their contractors appointed. Now, they have been told they are being put on pause indefinitely until such time as this particularly urgent list is delivered upon.

Newpark is on the list. I will undertake to pass on to the Minister the Deputies' concerns about perhaps moving it up to an earlier date for construction. However, I wish to stress that the school is most fortunate to be in the position of being on the list and that the decision to move the development out towards of the end of the programme is based on sound census and demographic data from the area which the school serves.