Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jun 2012

Vol. 767 No. 1

Order of Business

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

It is proposed to take No. 12, motion re referral of papers to Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform; No. 13, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the freezing and confiscation of proceeds of crime in the European Union; No. 14, motion re referral to select sub-committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the ratification by Ireland of the Aarhus Convention, the protocol to the Aarhus Convention on pollutant release and transfer registers and the amendment to the Aarhus Convention on genetically modified organisms; No.15, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 25, Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed); No. 26, statements on European Council, Brussels, to be taken at 12.05 p.m. today; and No. 6, European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2012 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 4.33 p.m. today.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn at 10 p.m.; Nos. 12, 13, 14, and 15 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings in relation to No. 26 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 85 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; European Communities (Amendment) Bill - Second Stage shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. tonight; Private Members' Business shall be No. 64, motion re building control, and shall also take place immediately after the Order of Business tomorrow and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes on that day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12, motion re referral of papers to Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform without debate, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 13, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a directive of the European Parliament and the Council on the freezing and confiscation of proceeds of crime in the European Union without debate, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14, motion re referral to select sub-committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the ratification by Ireland of the Aarhus Convention on pollutant release and transfer registers and the amendment to the Aarhus Convention on genetically modified organisms without debate, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions without debate, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 26, statements on European Council in Brussels, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6, Second Stage of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2012, agreed to?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

No.

Deputy Joe Higgins

It is not agreed to. The proposal is the debate on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2012 should be guillotined after only four hours of discussion. This must be seen in the context of an incredible proposal to have three hours of discussion tomorrow on the European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012. These are two major pieces of legislation to institutionalise in EU treaties new funding mechanisms which will have massive implications for European taxpayers and are linked with torturous austerity for ordinary people across Europe. It beggars belief the Government is proposing the use of the guillotine after only a few hours of debate on both Bills. These issues should have been the subject of massive national debate in the last two months, but because the Government concentrated on badgering and blackmailing the people in the course of the referendum campaign on access to the European Stability Mechanism-----

Deputy Ray Butler

The Deputy should sit down.

Deputy Joe Higgins

-----we did not get an opportunity to discuss them in proper detail.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We have been debating them all the time.

Deputy Joe Higgins

At the very least, the Government should give the elected Members of the Dáil, particularly opposition Members, the right to express the concerns of a huge majority of the people about these fundamental issues. Therefore, both debates must be open-ended.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Joe Higgins even let Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett pass him out.

Deputy Joe Higgins

What is wrong with Deputy Paul Kehoe?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Joe Higgins is opposed to the proposal for dealing with No. 6?

Deputy Joe Higgins

I am opposing the use of a guillotine.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I, too, oppose the proposal for dealing with No. 6. This is a significant Bill which requires time for a full debate. I oppose the guillotining of the debate. This is the first occasion on which the so-called simplified revision procedure has been used to make changes to European treaties. In this case the changes are to Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Lisbon treaty. Given the fundamental changes included in the Bill, it is imperative that it be thoroughly scrutinised. The guillotine should be removed and there should be a proper debate. The Labour Party and Fine Gael, when in opposition, argued, for the same reasons, that debates on substantial and important Bills should not be a guillotined and that time should be allowed for full and comprehensive debates on them.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Despite the crippling austerity imposed by the Government on working people-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Not again.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----it has failed to get a deal on the bank debt issue. As a consequence, it is now a racing certainty that we will require a second so-called bailout and be forced into the ESM programme which is nothing more than another but institutionalised EU-IMF austerity programme.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not debating the Bill.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Incredibly, despite that certainty - something even the Government's spokespeople more or less acknowledged in the last week of the referendum debate - the Government refused to have a full debate on the European Stability Mechanism. That is just extraordinary. We could be tied into this ESM and the austerity that will go with it for years because of the failure of the Government's policies and the failure to get a write-down of debt. All the Government is allowing is a few hours of debate on the ESM. Serious issues are contained within the ESM. It lacks public accountability and public oversight and it will be immune from prosecution and investigation. It could cost the State €11 billion or more to be involved in it-----

Deputy Simon Coveney

Deputy Boyd Barrett should stop scaremongering.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----but the Government is imposing a guillotine. This is what we get from a Government that promised more transparency and a new type of democracy - a guillotine is being imposed on the ESM Bill. That is absolutely unacceptable.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Deputy Boyd Barrett should stop misleading people.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The guillotine should be removed on the debate and the public should be allowed to know the full facts about the ESM.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. We are having brief statements.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I seek clarification from the Minister for Education and Skills on a specific point. I understand that today we are debating the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which is an amendment to Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

Deputy Joe Higgins

It is to allow the ESM to be installed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will speak, if I may. I did not interrupt anyone. Tomorrow we will have a discussion proper on the ESM Bill. I welcome the establishment of the ESM because this country does need to have potential access to a fund of that scale and size. We all criticised the European Union for the absence of mechanisms to respond to the type of crisis it has experienced in recent years. The establishment of a permanent fund to help countries that are in trouble is a welcome mechanism that will be permanent and long standing. It will help Europe and the eurozone of which we are a member. I have always been somewhat perplexed by the knee-jerk reaction and negativity towards the establishment of the ESM. It is a welcome measure but I respect the right of others to differ.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Deputy Martin should read his speech made last December.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I suggest to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Minister that we could discuss, through the Whips, whether there would be an opportunity to have a longer debate on the ESM tomorrow. I do not wish to guillotine anything. More time should be provided. It is a serious subject. We have spent recent weeks discussing Europe in general on the hustings and the House should be in a position to facilitate a longer debate, if necessary, either today on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which is a specific measure to amend Article 136, or on the ESM Bill proper. The Taoiseach indicated today that he is in favour of changing the mandate of the ESM in terms of its capacity to lend directly to banks and ailing banks, and that he had suggested such, which is a view held across Europe. The Minister might clarify the position. Would it require an amendment, for example, to the proposed Bill that is being put before us tomorrow? I would welcome a comment from the Minister in that regard.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the House for the contributions of speakers. We have a very tight timetable within which to enact the legislation. It must be done by the end of this calendar month. We are sitting later and will be sitting late right through this entire parliamentary session. With regard to the order for today, we must have Second and Remaining Stages completed by the end of today in order to proceed with the timetable. The timetable has been set out for today and tomorrow on these matters and I am not in a position to change it.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 6 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 35.

Tá

• Breen, Pat.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deasy, John.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keating, Derek.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lyons, John.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mathews, Peter.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nulty, Patrick.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O’Donovan, Patrick.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Mahony, John.
• O’Reilly, Joe.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Wall, Jack.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Browne, John.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Niall.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Brien, Jonathan.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Ross, Shane.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I note the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is on his way out of the Chamber. I welcome him back.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I second that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister was missing in action for several weeks and his reappearance on polling day was telling. He more or less said to people, "I have not gone away; I will be back."

Today there are thousands of students sitting the junior and leaving certificate examinations. Our best wishes go to all of them. Students who will sit the examinations next year, however, will not have the benefit of the comprehensive career guidance service they have enjoyed in recent years. One of the most misguided and savage cuts in last year's budget concerned the decision to axe in its entirety the career guidance service which was singled out above and beyond any other teaching service within second level school provision. There is no point in the Minister for Education and Skills shaking his head. That is the reality of what happened.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It is not.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Despite the provisions included in the Education Act which underpin and support the provision of a professional career guidance service in the education system, the damage of this budget cut is serious and will undermine the capacity of career guidance teachers to help students in the most challenging times of their lives in the latter half of their second level schooling. Will the Minister indicate to the House when the education and training boards Bill, the further education and training authority Bill and the education Bill will be published? Will he utilise the opportunity provided by these Bills to reverse the cut in question? Will he ensure legislatively that school management and principals will at least provide some semblance of a career guidance service for students, given the savage and discriminatory and selective targeting of the career guidance service in the last budget?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have to disagree with the former Minister for Education's analysis, given his familiarity with the legislation he introduced in 1998. Career guidance is provided in schools. Resources have been altered.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Altered. More like decimated.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Principals have been given discretion to deploy-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the big untruth.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister to reply, without interruption.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Up to 800 posts have been cut.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Is the Minister going to have caretakers teaching?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The new circular has been communicated to all schools underlining and repeating the obligations under the legislation in respect of the provision of a school career guidance service. This will continue to be the case.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

It is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The draft heads of the education and training boards Bill, to replace the VECs, have been circulated and discussed by the relevant Oireachtas committee. I am hoping to take Second Stage before the end of this session. We hope to have the SOLAS Bill, to replace FÁS, published by the end of the year. The intention is to try to meet the 1 January 2013 deadline for the legislation to be commissioned and brought into action.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

School principals have been put in an impossible position.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A circular can be described as secondary legislation. Will there be an opportunity for the House to have a debate on the circular on the career guidance issued to second level schools? It is a great untruth for the Minister to suggest he is giving discretion to principals when he has axed 800 posts from second level schools. People get angry when they hear that kind of official speak which somehow attempts to masquerade and camouflage what, in essence, is a savage cut in the provision of career guidance for young people. The Minister does a disservice when he endeavours to deflect the issue to boards of management and principals. The responsibility lies at his door given that he took this decision. There were alternatives in spreading the burden-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on promised legislation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----rather than selectively targeting one vital service and almost eliminating it in one swoop.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Deputy's exaggerated comments warrant a discussion on the circular within the context of the Education Act 1998. It is a matter for the Whips to decide when and how we should have this discussion.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Dhá cheist faoi reachtaíocht atá fógartha. I note the two official reports on the €3.6 billion discrepancy in the Government's debt figures have recommended that the responsibility for compiling these statistics should rest with one agency, the Central Statistics Office, rather than being shared with the Department of Finance. What is the Government's view of this recommendation and is there a plan to introduce legislation to deal with it? Is legislation required?

Following last week's referendum, will the Government indicate when it intends to bring forward the fiscal responsibility Bill?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report is to be discussed at the Cabinet and it will be for the Minister for Finance to bring forward a recommendation based on that report, which is in the public domain. The fiscal responsibility Bill will be taken this session.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That concludes the Order of Business as we are out of time. Those Deputies offering will be mentioned to the Ceann Comhairle for tomorrow's business.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We will mark it down for tomorrow.