Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jun 2012

Vol. 769 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Higher Education Grants

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue and I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon. I wish to discuss the new online grant application system and, in particular, the website grantsonline.ie. The issue relates specifically to self-employed parents who have had difficulties when using this new website. When parents get to the stage of the online process which asks for their income for 2011, those who are self-employed are having a problem. The website asks self-employed people to submit an income for 2011 but it gives them no option to input details for 2010, the most recent tax year for which they have fully accounted. For PAYE workers the most recent completed taxes are for 2011 but for self-employed people, their most fully completed taxes are for 2010. Self-employed people who, for tax purposes, operate under the system of self-assessment are not required to submit their 2011 tax returns until 31 October of this year.

As the Minister of State knows, for self-employed people, the system of higher education grant applications was always based on the most recent set of accounts and on the most recent tax return. Basing the system on the most recent tax return was a fair and equitable system and ensured the income figures were accurate and were accurately reported. I have been contacted by many parents who do not know what to do. They are unsure what figures they should give.

I am aware there is a support desk in place which allows people to make contact if they are having problems. However, as the Minister of State knows, this support system, which can be contacted by telephone or e-mail, does not necessarily give the answer for which parents are looking. While the support desk is very welcome, the advice being given needs to be clarified for the parents in question. In one case, a parent telephoned the helpline only to be told this is how the new system operates and that he or she should put in an estimate for his or her self-employed income for 2011. To me and many others like me, this is unacceptable. The system of grant applications must be fair and based on actual income which can be verified by means of documentation from Revenue. Any other system would be unfair and would lead to further complications.

To be fair to all applicants, the system should be open and transparent, and every applicant should be treated equitably and fairly. The only fair way to assess income is based on verified tax returns or audited accounts. If any other method of declaring income is used, it could be open to exploitation. This problem is more than likely an anomaly on the website, and I hope the Minister of State can rectify it. I believe it can be rectified easily.

The Department of Education and Skills has made significant and welcome changes to the grant application process. It has been standardised and now involves a streamlined, easily accessed system. Instead of having 66 awarding authorities, we now have one body, SUSI. Every grant applicant can now apply online. This is to be commended and welcomed.

This week is the last week of the leaving certificate examinations. As students complete their exams, they look forward to a universal system under which they need not worry about having to engage in a convoluted process of applying for higher education grants.

It is vital that we learn from the mistakes associated with the medical card process. We saw what happened after the streamlining. It is vital that the grant application system does not make the application procedure more difficult. As with all changes, evolution is required, but I hope the new online system will take on board feedback. I look forward to the Minister of State's reply.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I am responding on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Quinn. I thank Deputy Buttimer for raising this important matter.

I am pleased to inform the House that the Department of Education and Skills funds a student grant scheme for third level and further education students. Under the terms of the student grant scheme, grant assistance is awarded to students who meet the prescribed conditions of funding, including those which relate to nationality, residency, previous academic attainment and means.

The 2012 student grant scheme regulations were issued to coincide with the new universal online grant application system, which went live on 11 June. Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, which has been established as a unit of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, has commenced operation for all new grant applicants for the 2012-13 academic year, and all of the applications are being made online. This new application process is applicant-centred and aims to provide a more efficient service for the student. The existing 66 grant-awarding bodies will continue to deal with the renewal of applications for their existing grant holders for the duration of their current courses.

Articles 19 to 25 of Student Grant Scheme 2012 set out how reckonable income is to be assessed for the purpose of qualifying for a student grant. The means-test arrangements of the student grant scheme are applied nationally. In all cases, including in respect of both employed and self-employed applicants, gross income within a specified reference period is assessed with certain specified social welfare and HSE payments excluded.

Article 20(1) of Student Grant Scheme 2012 states the reference period within which reckonable income may be determined for an academic year shall be 1 January to 31 December of the relevant calendar year. For the academic year 2012-13, all income arising in the reference period 1 January 2011 to 31 December 2011 is assessed. Reckonable income limits are also based on this reference period. Article 20(2) of Student Grant Scheme 2012 provides that, where the business year differs from the reference period, the income shown in the business accounts for a year that ends between 1 January and 31 December of the relevant year will be considered.

The assessment of means under my Department's student grant scheme is based on gross income from all sources within the reference period. Therefore, all income is assessed from the same starting point, eliminating any distortion that might arise from different spending decisions. The income taken into account is gross income before any deductions for PAYE, income tax, capital gains tax, capital acquisitions tax, PRSI and the income levy.

I am sure the Deputy will agree it is necessary to assess all applications for support on a consistent basis from the same starting point, be the applicants employed or self-employed.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I hope there will not be difficulties such as the one that arose in the medical-card streamlining process. There have been teething difficulties with the grant application process. I have listened to and read the Minister of State's reply.

I hope applicants will be communicated with. I fully support what the Department is doing and I hope the Minister of State and Minister interpret my remarks as constructive. What we are doing is positive and the process should be simple and straightforward. I hope we communicate the content of the Minister of State's reply today, but not just through social media and online. We must disseminate the information proactively, avoid confusion and make the process simple.

We have done a great job in changing the system and I hope it will not be difficult, complicated, cumbersome or confusing. We want to achieve the opposite. I hope the process we have set up will achieve this but I have a small worry that it will not. As the Minister of State knows, some 41% of undergraduate students who receive a grant have the student contribution paid for them by the State. This comprises a vast and significant number of people who will use the website. It must be made clear to them what is at stake. There ought to be confidence in the system and it ought to be easy to use. The Department has a mentoring network in place across the country and I hope it will work.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I agree wholeheartedly with all the comments of Deputy Buttimer. It is in all our interests, particularly those of young people, that the new service operates as effectively and efficiently as possible. The customer experience will be monitored closely and we will work hard to ensure consistent customer service. People ought to feel they are being treated fairly and equitably. I am confident the lessons learned from other systems, which might not have operated as effectively and efficiently as they should have done, will be taken on board in rolling out the grant application service across the country.

School Book Costs

Deputy Seamus Kirk

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important subject for the Topical Issue Debate.

This is the second year in a row in which parents are facing a school year having to buy unnecessary and expensive new editions of textbooks, despite repeated promises from the Minister that he would prioritise this issue. The Minister announced this time last year that he had received a commitment from eight book publishers that they would sign up to a code of practice on revised editions. It was promised that there would be no new editions produced unless there had been significant changes to the curriculum.

Implementation of the code of practice means there will be no revisions to existing textbooks for four years unless there are changes required because of curriculum or examinations changes. Old editions are to be kept in print for two years, unless annual sales fall below 500 copies. This means, in future, a new edition of a textbook will be available for a minimum of six years. Publishers also confirmed that revisions to textbooks will be available online. Why has the code not been adhered to? Since the meeting in October 2011, has the Minister examined this issue, and has he made further changes?

This year, parents are again under considerable financial strain as they must buy new editions despite there being only minor changes to the textbooks. A number of constituents contacted me on this issue, and they are downright worried and scared about the cost of school books for the coming year. In some cases, it is almost impossible to see what the changes are in the revised editions. The book publishers in question are failing to abide by the code of practice agreed to last year. The Minister must take action on this issue. While book rental schemes are very important and it is right that publishers offer discounts to schools that buy in bulk under the schemes, we still need to stop publishers from getting away with bringing out unnecessary new editions of textbooks each year.

In February, the Minister for Education and Skills answered a parliamentary question on the book rental and loan schemes from our education spokesperson, Deputy Brendan Smith. I welcome these schemes, but this is not good enough. We need to go further and ensure the publishers do not get away with publishing revised editions when there is clearly no change in these books.

What are the views of the Minister of State on the introduction of pilot schemes within schools for the use of Android tablets as an alternative to traditional books? As we are moving increasingly to a digital age and the Government has highlighted the importance of innovation and IT, what measures has the Minister brought in to streamline this method, and in comparison with cost and cost-effectiveness, is this the way forward over traditional types of learning?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I am taking this Topical Issue Debate matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. I thank Deputy Kirk for raising the matter and welcome the opportunity to clarify the position on it.

The Minister is conscious that the cost of textbooks is a considerable burden on families. Textbooks are an important way in which students can be supported in their learning and the Minister knows the range and quality of textbooks has increased in recent years.

Since becoming Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn has attempted to take steps to reduce the burden on families. Shortly after coming into office, he met members of the Irish Educational Publishers' Association and impressed on them the need to limit the cost of textbooks. He also stressed to them the real need to avoid placing schools and families in a position where textbooks are altered unnecessarily.

The association responded positively to the Minister's approaches and agreed a voluntary code of practice among its members. The code commits the publishers to limit the publication of new editions and to maintaining editions of books in print unchanged for at least six years. The publishers have also given assurances that they will sell textbooks to schools at substantial discounts in order that schools can purchase textbooks in bulk to stock textbook rental schemes.

All these developments are welcome, and the Minister looks forward to seeing the members of the association implement these commitments. My Department has not received any complaint that would suggest that the code is not being implemented, but if the Deputy has evidence to show the code is being breached, I would ask him to provide me with it and I will take it up directly with the Irish Education Publishers' Association.

Recently published research by my Department shows that there is a high level of book rental schemes in operation at primary school level. The research indicates that 76% of primary schools operate a book rental scheme and I encourage this practice across all schools in the education landscape. Results at second level are not as conclusive. Since his appointment, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, has also engaged with the National Parents Council, at both primary and post-primary levels, and with other organisations such as Barnardos and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to ensure textbook costs to students and their families are kept to a minimum.

I refer the Deputy to the report on textbook rental schemes in schools and the allocation of textbook grants by the Department of Education and Skills, and the draft guidelines on developing school textbook rental schemes which the Minister published on 28 May last. These documents will help to inform the debate on the issue. Following receipt of the opinions of the representatives of teachers, principals, school management, parents, students and others on the policy options outlined in the report, the Minister hopes to make a decision by the end of the summer so that if there are any changes to the book grant scheme, schools will have a year's advance notice.

On the final point raised by Deputy Kirk on the availability of the textbooks on digital tablets in schools, significant work is ongoing in certain schools in furthering that particular aim. There are also discussions ongoing between publishers and the Department. Indeed, publishers are also having their own discussions and negotiations with tablet suppliers and others as to how that could be rolled out throughout the country. A significant amount of the movement on this must come from the publishers and the tablet suppliers, but the Department would be anxious to facilitate that process in any way it can.

Deputy Seamus Kirk

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. If I might respond to his invitation, I draw his attention to an area which needs examination. On one of the radio programmes yesterday, there was an animated discussion about the home economics textbook for post-primary for the coming year and the fact a new textbook was produced. A number of parents were certainly exercised about it and, at a minimum, it bears examination to see where the facts of the matter lie.

I exhort the Minister of State to ensure the Department and the Minister keep an eye on what is a vital area. There are many parents for whom, because of mortgage demands and personal commitments here and there, the cost of schoolbooks is a significant burden at a particular time of the year. Of course, it is not easy to spread it out over the years. Clearly, the number of initiatives that have been brought forward will help in their own way to alleviate the matter. We need to do everything possible to alleviate the financial pressure on hard-pressed families to ensure the best education is available for their young people.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I assure the Deputy the Minister will continue to impress upon the publishers the need to reduce textbook costs overall. As I stated, they committed to the code of practice. It is the Minister's intention they will fully implement that code of practice. My Department will publish guidelines on textbook rental schemes once the period of consultation is complete, and that is expected to happen in the coming months. I agree with the Deputy it is unfair for publishers to continue to place what we all agree is an unnecessary burden on parents who are significantly burdened, and anything we can do to prevent that from happening we most certainly will do.

School Enrolments

Deputy Jack Wall

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter. I am pleased the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, is present to take it.

Malachi was born on 6 September 2006 with the condition hydrocephalus, a learning disability, evolving cerebral palsy and epilepsy. He attends a school in Newbridge, which is 35 miles from his home. The family, because of his health condition, cannot allow him to go on the bus and must bring him a round trip of almost 70 miles in the morning and the same in the evening. That amounts to 140 miles a day.

They want to move the child to St. Lazerian's school in Carlow, which is ten miles from the family home, would give a round trip of any given day of 40 miles, and is an improvement of 100 miles. One can see immediately, from a convenience, financial and family liaison perspective, the advantage in this regard.

Malachi is a young boy with significant physical and medical needs. He has an intellectual disability within the severe to profound range. He depends totally on those around him. He is like a six month old baby. He cannot speak, walk or hold himself upright. He must be lifted in and out of bed. He has major problems.

The facilities in the school in Newbridge are specific to Malachi and cannot be used, from a measurement perspective, etc., for any other child. I cannot see but that the HSE, in its wisdom, would look at this case and say, from a sympathetic and family perspective, that it, too, would like to see Malachi moved to the facility in Carlow, and whatever facilities he has to help him attend the school transferred to the HSE in Carlow. It is a simple, family-orientated matter. It will ensure these parents, who have two other small children, will be able to have some prime time with their other children as well instead of being on the road for hours each day to provide for their loved one, Malachi.

It seems a simple matter, but the family has met total resistance in trying to overcome this problem. I would hope the Minister of State would see logic in the argument. It is a simple, family-orientated argument. It is to ensure a family can exist in the present environs of the struggle the parents have to provide for their child as well as looking after their other two small children. It beggars belief. Is the HSE that looks after the Carlow area and the HSE that looks after the Kildare area poles apart? Can common sense not prevail to help a family which urgently needs permission to move a child to another school? The long school journey for their son generates substantial costs in terms of petrol and car maintenance and requires that two small children are left at home while they journey for longer periods. If a little common sense were shown, the problem would be overcome. I hope the Minister of State accepts the logic of the proposal.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I will skip much of the reply provided as it deals primarily with disability issues at national level.

I thank Deputy Jack Wall for raising this matter. As he will know, the disability budget nationally was cut by 3.7% in 2012. The Health Service Executive's national service plan states that at least 2% of this reduction should not impact on services and needs to be generated from other savings and increased efficiencies. The HSE, through its national consultative forum on disability, which includes representative organisations and agencies from the disability sector, is seeking to identify and agree a framework to address the savings required, with minimal impact on front line services. The executive has assured me it is endeavouring to ensure services are protected, where possible, from reductions in front line services. Some reductions in services will be unavoidable, even with such efficiencies, but this will be done to minimise the impact on service users and their families as much as possible.

Disability services for children have a long history in Ireland and many organisations provide excellent support and interventions for children and their families. However, as they have developed independently, they were often established to serve one specific group of children only. The result has been a wide variation in the services available in different parts of the country and for different categories of disability. We need to find a better way to provide services for all children with disabilities.

The Health Service Executive, working with the non-statutory and voluntary organisations they fund and others in the health, education and disability sectors, has established a national project - Progressing Disability Services for Children and Young People - which will change the way services are provided. The project is based on the recommendations of the report of the national reference group on multidisciplinary services for children aged between five and 18 years, which was produced by representatives of the professions and management involved in delivering multidisciplinary services to children.

As I noted, the written reply outlines the global position on disability services in some detail. On the young child with special needs whose case Deputy Wall raises, I understand the circumstances of the case are known to the Health Service Executive. The HSE is considering, as sympathetically as possible and having regard to the financial and other resource constraints applying, how the health service supports required by the child to allow the move from the special school in County Kildare to the special school in County Carlow from September this year could be met. It has indicated, following a request from me, that it will keep me informed regularly of developments in the case.

I fully accept the case Deputy Wall has made. It appears logical that the child in question be allowed to move schools. Few people with multiple disabilities and a high level of need are being placed in residential care, which is as matters should be. Most of those in such circumstances live in the community with their families and receive supports, as occurs in the case of the boy in question. The Deputy stated he hopes common sense will prevail. I hope sense is as common as he believes it to be because sometimes it is not shown. We are working on this issue and I hope a solution will be found. As Deputy Wall noted, it does not make sense to leave matters as they stand.

Deputy Jack Wall

I appreciate the Minister of State's comments on this issue. The family in question want to co-operate and work with the Health Service Executive. They understand the facilities available in the school in Newbridge are specific to their son's needs and could not be used by another child. A move to another school would not generate additional costs, other than a requirement that the HSE in County Carlow match the funding currently provided in Newbridge. The family would benefit from the move by saving time and transport costs. We will work with the HSE and Minister of State on this issue. I spoke to an official of the HSE earlier who was more than helpful and I am hopeful the issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of the family in question. If permission to move their child to another school is granted, it will make a major difference to the family's quality of life.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Although we live in a time of tight resources, we spend a substantial amount on disability. We need to ensure the system adopts a person - in this case a family - centred approach. The system must show a degree of flexibility. While I am not certain if boundary issues arise in terms of health board areas and so forth, such issues should not act as a barrier and should be overcome. We will continue to work on the issue.

Bus Services

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this matter. I condemn the decision by Bus Éireann to withdraw all public transport services serving Abbeyleix and Cullahill in south County Laois and Johnstown in north County Kilkenny. This is the first of a number of savage cuts by Bus Éireann which will result in the withdrawal of services along the main roads from Dublin to Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick and the North, respectively. I ask that this decision be reversed.

We have lost the railways and every month now we lose vital bus services through towns. As a result, the affected areas will not have access to any form of public transport. The chairman of the National Transport Authority and managing director of CIE informed Members at a recent meeting that nothing can be done because the services in question are run on commercial lines. I ask that the Government and Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, who is a party colleague of the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, agree to the transfer of the public service obligation from rural transport links to cover what were, until this week, Expressway services along the M7. The state aid service needs to be expanded. The bus service in County Laois, which has been provided since the time of the Bianconi transport service more than 100 years ago, is about to cease. I ask the Government to ensure, at the earliest opportunity and through the National Transport Authority and Bus Éireann, that people in County Laois who need to take a bus to work or to attend vital health appointments under the centralised service for which transport is required have access to public transport.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I will oppose the withdrawal of public transport services from south County Laois and north County Kilkenny by every means possible. Bus Éireann's decision is outrageous and can be compared to removing the bus service from the south of Dublin city. If the plan proceeds, the towns of Abbeyleix, Durrow, Johnstown and Urlingford and the village of Cullahill will no longer have a bus service. There is no private service on the route, and the first stop will be Urlingford.

Bus Éireann receives a subsidy of €200 million a year from the taxpayer. It is also paid for bus pass holders at a reduced rate for each journey made. As Deputy Flanagan pointed out, we had a meeting with Bus Éireann representatives today and I raised the issue of a toilet break, because they are proposing a continuous drive from Dublin Airport to Cork city. The Minister of State knows the length of that journey. Not too many people would sit on a bus for that length of time without a toilet break, yet the company is proposing that there would not even be a toilet break at Josephine's Restaurant in Urlingford. In fact, people will have neither a tea nor a toilet break following these proposals. The company claims there is no commercial obligation, and I wrote to the National Transport Authority two weeks ago about this issue. The authority wrote back to me and stated there is no public service obligation to provide these services. We fleshed it out today at the meeting with the delegations from Bus Éireann and the NTA, and this was confirmed.

I ask the Minister of State to take this back to the Government. We must have a public service obligation on the N7 and the N8. It was confirmed for us that the Limerick route is also in danger of being lost, according to the CEO of Bus Éireann. We cannot wipe whole counties off the route. If all these towns are bypassed and only the motorway is used, there will not be many passengers. The proposition by the company is ludicrous. We need stops and passengers will use a good service when it is available.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I am taking this on behalf of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. The Minister is speaking at the Road Safety Authority's workshop on the road safety strategy this afternoon and is unable therefore to attend this Topical Issue Debate. He apologises for that. For reasons which will be explained, the Minister has no direct responsibility in this matter. I think both Deputies have made the case I am about to make.

There are two types of commercial service, namely, private bus company operations and Bus Éireann's expressway services. These services receive no Exchequer funding and have to cover their own costs. The Government does not make decisions on these routes. They are made by the National Transport Authority, NTA, the independent licensing body, following applications from operators. In addition, there are public service obligation, PSO, contracted services operated by Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. Luas services are also contracted services, but that company is currently able to operate without subvention.

Bus Éireann expressway services form part of the commercial network of services operated by the company, all of which are licensed by the NTA. Five of these routes have been amended recently and two have been issued with new licences. In addition, amendments to two routes are under consideration and one is under appeal. The inter-city expressway services are purely commercial services. Such services operate in competition with private operators in the inter-urban bus market. For example, Aircoach provides 17 express services daily between Cork and Dublin.

As part of its expressway turnaround plan, Bus Éireann is making changes to a number of its commercial services to meet the customer demand for limited stop services with quicker journey times and airport connections to ensure such services are commercially viable. Failure to react to this market demand and competitive pressure would result in a reduction and loss of expressway services and jobs.

In the coming weeks, it is understood Bus Éireann will be making changes to the Dublin-Cork expressway service to reflect the demand from its customers in large population centres along the route for shorter journey times and more direct services. This will see the journey time on the Dublin-Cork expressway service reduced by approximately 50 minutes, by using the M7 and M8 motorways, while still allowing for the extension of the service to Dublin Airport. This will mean the Dublin to Cork expressway service will not serve Abbeyleix, Durrow, Johnstown or Horse and Jockey once the revised route comes into effect shortly. Daily patronage of Bus Éireann's services in Abbeyleix, Durrow, Johnstown and Horse and Jockey is not commercially sustainable. Portlaoise and Urlingford will still be served. Bus Éireann is following a viability and efficiency plan designed to address significant financial challenges related to factors such as a 20% fall in passenger numbers, fuel cost increases and competition. It is important the company responds effectively to achieve sustainable finances in the future, particularly as regards commercial services operated in a competitive market.

PSO services like Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and other Bus Éireann services are subsidised by the NTA under a PSO contract. The NTA will be reviewing PSO services to provide a service to towns that lose a long-standing commercial service that is no longer viable. The NTA will also look at services provided by the rural transport programme to mitigate the effect of the withdrawal of commercial services.

The Government is concerned that public transport services cater for the needs of rural areas. However, commercial realities for bus services operating in a competitive market have to be recognised. The Minister will encourage NTA efforts at finding alternative services, as mentioned. However, the overall fiscal position means there must be a realistic understanding of the financial constraints affecting the subvention of public transport PSO services generally. I understand the concerns expressed by the Deputies and I equally understand that the withdrawal of the service can be devastating.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. I would like to seek a meeting of the Laois Deputies with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport this week to deal with certain aspects of this reply. I would like to remind the Minister of State of the programme for Government between her party and mine, which states the following:

We recognise the need to rebalance transport policy to favour public transport. We will therefore establish a Cabinet sub-committee on Infrastructure to explore the benefits to the public transport passenger of more diverse bus service provision [...] The rural transport network is vital for rural communities as a reliable and sustainable transport service. We will maintain and extend the Rural Transport Programme with other local transport services as much as is practicable.

Will the Minister of State ensure the Government rejigs the subsidised routes to include Abbeyleix and Durrow? That is essential and is in keeping with the programme for Government.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I would also like to request that meeting. I requested a meeting with the Minister last week, so it is to be hoped we can have it. It is vital that Johnstown, Cullahill, Durrow and Abbeyleix are protected. There needs to be a public service obligation for the route. I question the issue of commercial viability, and the same case can be made for Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory on the N7 route. It is proven that the existence of bus shelters leads to more people using the bus. We need to work with companies like Adshel and the local county councils to put bus shelters in place to enhance these routes and make them commercially viable.

We cannot wipe away this service completely. The Minister of State mentioned in her reply that the new route will save 50 minutes. According to the proposed timetable and the old timetable, it will save half an hour. The motorways are longer in some cases, while buses can only travel at a maximum of 100 km/h per hour on both the motorways and the old N7 and N8. I question the notion that it will save all this time. It is unrealistic. The timetable is unworkable for a number of reasons that I will not go into due to time constraints. I pointed that out to the Bus Éireann representatives today. I ask the Minister of State to take back the message that we want this route retained and the service improved.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I will convey the request for the meeting and I am sure it will be granted. The sub-committee to which Deputy Flanagan referred has been set up and it is very much about alternative modes of transport and rural transport. I am not saying the towns of Durrow and Abbeyleix are strictly rural, but they are not enormous areas of population either. We have to take a look at things like this, but I will convey the request for a meeting on behalf of both Deputies, and will also ensure the sub-committee dealing with this area gets a copy of their concerns.