Deputy Mattie McGrath is in possession.
Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed)
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I hope the Acting Chairman, Deputy Tom Hayes, will give me some latitude and not be too hard on me. He and I, together with our Tipperary colleagues, are now serving a united constituency and must all stick together.
The Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, indicated that the primary purpose of this Bill is to close a loophole in current law. The Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 provides for an offence of withholding information in regard to serious offences but specifically excludes sexual offences. This Bill will ensure there is an obligation on persons who have knowledge of any serious offence, including sexual offences, against children and vulnerable adults to inform the Garda of same. The Minister went on to say that recent banking and child abuse scandals have shown that some individuals and organisations knew or believed that crimes were being committed but did not alert the authorities to that effect. I am somewhat uneasy in referring to the banking scandal and child sex offences in the same sentence. I agree, however, that in both instances, the problem was that people in positions of authority did not speak up. In the case of the banking situation, the Financial Regulator and others, including Members of this House, should have exercised greater oversight. In the case of sexual offences against children and vulnerable adults, a variety of persons in authority were unable, unwilling or did not see the necessity of reporting these heinous crimes.
It is important that we take action to prevent any recurrence of such failures in the future. In some cases, action was not taken because of a fear of the consequences if suspicions were unfounded or because individuals were under no legal obligation to inform. Every citizen of this State could use that excuse in many areas. I have been involved in Muintir na Tíre and Community Alert since 1985 and have often found there is great reluctance among people to be an "informer". This is a legacy of attitudes that were widespread during the struggle for independence and beyond, when it was seriously frowned upon to supply any information to the peelers, the RIC or the RUC. We must leave those fears and ideologies to history by encouraging and supporting right-thinking people to do the right thing. An Garda Síochána, which works with Muintir na Tíre in operating the Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch schemes in communities throughout the State, must be more proactive in offering that type of support and in becoming more socially integrated within the communities it serves. It is a retrograde step to close rural Garda stations and withdraw vehicles and other resources. What is good in one part of society is good in others.
The Protections for Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998 provides safeguards for persons who report suspected child abuse in good faith. However, a similar protection does not currently extend to people reporting alleged abuse of vulnerable adults, which is a dreadful legislative anomaly at this point in our history. I heard snippets of the annual document published today by the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, which shows that whistleblowers in the Health Service Executive and elsewhere had to go to her office seeking redress after being punished and victimised for reporting wrongdoing. That is very regrettable.
It is important that we engage fully with this important discussion. Last year the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality examined the heads of this Bill and invited submissions thereon. Nine submissions were received and a public hearing took place on 30 November 2011 to examine the main points raised in further detail. That meeting was attended by representatives of Rape Crisis Network Ireland, One in Four, the CARI Foundation and one individual. A report was subsequently published by the committee, which I will deal with presently.
This is a shortcoming of the House. We are elected as legislators and would all like to profess that we know what is going on locally. We had arguments in committee earlier today concerning this matter. I believe that a public consultation was supposed to be held but it was hamfisted and shambolic. In light of this, I must put my hands up and say that I was not aware that this consultation was taking place. How can we make an effort when we have such an important consultation as the one on this legislation? How was it advertised or otherwise disseminated to the public, to groups or more importantly, to individuals? The latter may have been victims of abuse when they were children, whether in homes or in the family.
There are interesting figures provided as an addendum to this report about where such abuse takes place. It is not all confined to State or church bodies, as the media would often lead us to believe. The recent "Prime Time Investigates" programme, which has now deteriorated into a total farce, would lead us to believe that this all happened behind the doors of convents or religious brothers.
While I am not condoning one act of child abuse, I am condemning those who place all the blame on the church, perhaps for some other reasons. The Taoiseach's address to this House after the Cloyne report, may also have gone a little over the top. We have to be very careful in what we say here because we do not want to have more injustice perpetrated on people who gave good service to this State - namely the religious brothers and sisters and other reverend people North and South.
Last week, honest people from all over this country, including Northern Ireland, came in to meet us. They were not members of any group or organisation. They had resigned from those organisations because they felt it had all become about compensation. They felt some of those organisations had been hijacked, so they left. They came in here to address us openly last week.
I was at Cahir to visit them. They do not want money and have refused to accept it but they want their lives and dignity. In addition, they want their minds to be at peace. They also want to know that we are going to change things for the better. They want to know that if they have children or grandchildren in that situation it will not be allowed to happen. They are fighting the good fight and carrying the torch to put it all in the past and leave it behind us, moving forward into a new, modern Ireland where such things cannot happen.
During the Oireachtas sub-committee hearings, it became apparent that drafting legislation in this area would be extremely complex and difficult. We know it is and why would it not be? In the course of the public hearings it was noted that there had been much comment on institutional abuse, to which I have referred. However, the sub-committee was informed that much abuse wasinter familia. The legislation needs to strike a balance between confidentiality and the current risk to children and vulnerable adults. The submissions gave examples of child abuse. It appears that during the debates in 1996 it was expected that some form of mandatory reporting of child abuse would be put on a statutory footing in the near future. The Children First guidelines will be put on a statutory footing this year, but after a lapse of 16 years.
The Bill also introduces mandatory reporting. Section 9 of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 places a duty on all persons, rather than a particular specialised group, to report knowledge or suspicions of serious crime. As I said earlier, that is incumbent on all of us at all times wherever we may be. The legislation was introduced following the Omagh bombing and aimed to combat terrorism. However, it criminalised the withholding of information on serious offences, and not just terrorism offences. A serious offence covers serious crime but excludes sexual crimes. The need for section 9 along with a number of other sections in the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 is revised annually by the Oireachtas. As recently as last week, I spoke on the Bill and voted for it. Unfortunately, despite the 1998 ceasefire, we still have a threat from the Real IRA and other groups like that, including some loyalist terrorists as well.
The use of the Offences Against State Act was not used as commonly as we were led to believe. Up to June 2011, 63 people had been charged under the Act; 117 up to June 2010; 137 up to May 2009; and 115 up to June 2008. There was a wide degree of variance, but it was not over used, although that was the worry when the legislation was introduced.
In publishing this Bill, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, stated that the Cloyne and Ryan reports clearly demonstrated the need to strengthen our law in regard to the disclosure of information concerning offences against children. It is not acceptable that there can be a cloak of secrecy surrounding such offences or offences against other vulnerable persons. The term "other vulnerable persons" is wide-ranging and it is important for us to understand all the nuances of human frailties and how people can become vulnerable. It is not only by sexual abuse.
While much of the media attention concerning child abuse focused on abuse by the clergy, it is important to note that national statistics from the Rape Crisis Network Ireland show that almost 80% - a startling figure - of childhood sexual abuse victims were abused by someone known to them, such as immediate family members, relatives or family friends. Some 12% were abused by those in authority, that is, teachers, sports coaches or priests. Some 3% were abused by strangers and 5% by others. Therefore 12% were abused by those in authority, although 0.01% would be too much.
We need to get back to basics and reality, however, and so do the media. We must understand that we cannot tar everyone with the same brush, including those great institutions and bastions of power that controlled so much in Ireland. We now have the Minister for Education and Skills trying to take the Catholic Church out of education altogether, but the education system would be a far poorer place without it. We must never forget the work done by the Roman Catholic Church. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, appreciates that, but we cannot have these side-swipes and below-the-belt attacks to try to banish all these people. I am tired of saying that I have worked with reverend sisters and other religious in providing the Ashling Centre and now also with a drug misuse centre in my own county. They are visionary and well educated, as well as knowing what they want to do and how to get there. They are outstanding motivators because they do not have the distractions of family life. Those figures are worth reflecting on and we cannot say often enough that people should acknowledge that.
It is no harm to correct or abolish old, outdated language in legislation. I am concerned, however, about some of the proposed sentences in the Bill. I believe that sentences should be very strong, in addition to having support for whistle-blowers. There should be no hiding place for anyone who abuses children or vulnerable adults. I am concerned about the proposed term of five years' imprisonment because I do not believe enough rehabilitation takes place there.
There is a pilot project in Nenagh which operates a restorative justice programme. The justice system is not worth its salt if it does not involve restorative justice to try to correct offenders and make them better people. They should obviously have remorse for what they have done. When anyone is convicted of an offence, the remorse will always stay with them. After serving their sentences, however, they are free people again. Nonetheless, it is important that they emerge from detention as better people, able to live life to the full and enhance their communities in so doing.
A couple of weeks ago during the leaving certificate examinations, I saw the difficulties and pressures facing students, including those arising as a result of modern technology. During the last Dáil, several companies attended committees and tried to sell us ways of restricting access to certain websites for those under 18 years of age. I am as guilty as anyone in terms of allowing my eight children access to all types of facilities. We did not have those types of distractions or pressures. I sat my examinations in 1976, from which I was probably collected by my parents or got the bus or cycled home. If I did not do well in an examination nobody except, perhaps, one or two other students knew that. I probably told my parents when I got home. However, now when a student does not do well in an examination, every student in the school knows about it, as do students in the neighbouring schools, following which the student goes into "meltdown". While I know that these devices are not permitted in the examination halls, once finished their examinations the students are on them texting and on Facebook. There is a great deal of cyber bullying going on and we need to address it. It is an offence against young and old, in particular young people. Many elderly people are also abused by way of mobile phone. It is fortunate perhaps that many people over 60 or 70 years of age do not have a mobile phone. Many of them do not even have a landline. Perhaps, they are better off not having one. They will probably have a better quality of life as a result. Perhaps the Acting Chairman would indicate how much time I have remaining.
The Deputy has nine minutes remaining.
I am giving good value for money tonight.
Too much.
The Deputy is doing well.
Leave him alone.
The Deputy is afraid I might go on a circuitous route back to South Tipperary and that I might refer to the closure of an institution in south Tipperary in respect of which he did not do enough to save.
Or the revision of a constituency.
The revision of the constituency has nothing to do this. The Deputy is as concerned about that as I am.
I am interested in restorative justice. The Bill lists at Schedule 1 the specific offences which must be reported, in particular offences against children and vulnerable persons. I believe in restorative justice. I take this opportunity to compliment the Garda Síochána, in particular in South Tipperary. We have all read in the media of heinous crimes, the victims of which, despite their trauma and having gone through the ordeal of a court case because the perpetrator refused to admit guilt resulting in their having to give evidence, have in their impact statements praised a particular garda or sergeant for their assistance. This type of contact is important. For this reason, I believe the restorative justice system should be enhanced and the Garda Síochána should have further involvement in this regard. As I stated, we must ensure people have confidence in the law and in the justice system. The justice system can be very intimidating for people who have not previously engaged with it. We could perhaps use the secondary school system to educate people about the system, including jury service, which, too, is an intimidating process. A recently deceased 99 year old - whom Deputy Hayes and I knew - was called for jury service two weeks ago despite that she died six months ago. I am not sure whose fault it is that her name had not been removed from the register. We must ensure we have in place a system which ensures pensioners, in particular of that age, are not summoned to jury service.
There must also be some understanding of modern day culture. I have been calling for many years for refresher courses for the Judiciary. Currently, once one is a judge, one is a judge for life. However, life evolves and changes. Some judges live in ivory towers far away from the reality of daily life. There is a need for change in this area. Many Members attended the recent meeting with Ms Trudi Lalor on the need to make the Coroner's Court system more sensitive. The courts system is adversarial. We know that. I thank the Minister, Deputy Hogan, who, following much pressure from this side of the House, has dropped - I hope he has - the provision which provided that people would have to go to court if a second inspection of a septic tank failed and they wanted to appeal the matter. The courts have enough to do in terms of dealing with criminals. We should not be making criminals of ordinary people who are trying to provide homes for their families.
As I stated earlier, cyber bullying is a serious issue. It is unseen and can happen at 5 a.m. While previously a student may have been subjected to bullying during school time they can now be bullied at 2 a.m., 3 a.m., 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. while they should be asleep, which is worrying. I agree with much of what is contained in this Bill. This Bill makes an important amendment to the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 in regard to offences against vulnerable persons, which are as wrong as any terrorist act. These are acts of terror perpetrated on one person. It is important to note that only 12% of abuse - which is 12% too much - happened behind the walls of institutions or in cars with clergymen. It is important we focus on and understand that and that the public is made aware that this may also be happening in the workplace, homes, neighbours homes and so on. I compliment those who, before it became fashionable, became foster parents, taking in vulnerable, damaged and hurt children and young adults whom they cared for, nourished and listened to, giving them the confidence to move on and live meaningful lives.
As regards submissions, only three groups and one individual attended the committee hearings. There are so many victims of abuse. The people with whom we met last week in the AV room were not aware of the redress system. There are people today in America, Australia, the UK and so on who were victims of abuse here. We heard many stories in regard to abuse of children in homes and institutions. In the past, many children were sent to farms and pubs to work, where dreadful abuse was perpetrated on them. There are many areas in respect of which the State has failed. However, I do not lay blame at anyone's door. We must be more aware of what is going on around us - which brings me back again to the community alert programmes - and not only the criminal who might kick in our door and threaten to shoot us. A criminal held four people hostage for two hours today during a raid on a pharmacy in Cashel town. Thankfully, nobody was hurt and that the gardaí were able to deal with that situation, which was a frightening ordeal. However, that is what is going on everywhere.
As mentioned, there are people who will try to find a loophole in this Bill because they do not want to report. I will not go into the area of confessionals and what happens in that regard. I believe in confession and in the sacrament of penance and reconciliation. I will leave the issue of the clergy not being allowed to report on what is told in the confessional to wiser counsel. However, we must be wary of that. The people who have taken those vows will have to deal with that themselves in their institutions. It is a sensitive and difficult issue as is the issue for which we are legislating in this Bill. We must ensure we remain alert to this and that we spread awareness about it.
It is wrong that the committee received only four submissions on this hugely important issue. All of our committees are failing to engage the public. Perhaps this House is failing to engage the public and that is the reason we do not have the interaction and uptake of votes. My colleague, Deputy Tom Hayes, is the Acting Chairman so I will not go into the promises of the last election. I am just saying there is a disconnect. While the committee holding the hearings - I do not know who is the Chairman - did a good job the response it got was pretty pathetic given the number of crimes committed over the years. A number of people abroad have not heard about the redress board and the various schemes. I referred in this House two weeks ago to the abuse victims organisation being hijacked by individuals, including by an individual in my county. The individual to whom I referred is a former mayor. I and the people of Clonmel in Tipperary are confused. The same person praised the institution at every turn for decades and gave the people involved civic receptions. There was then, however, a metamorphosis and he turned around and attacked the people he had defended. He also attacked the newspapers for printing what was public knowledge and in the public domain after court cases. When euro appeared, he did the exact opposite of what he had been doing. This is despicable. The people I met last week despise this more than anything else. They want money and justice and their minds back. This is a hard thing for them to say. They want to get back their minds and their living spirit, which had been so traumatised and suppressed over the years.
It behoves us all to learn serious lessons from these instances. We should notice and be aware of any offences against a person, young or old, and report them. We should be community aware and we should be involved in neighbourhood watch. Above all, however, we should be alert about human beings. If we do this, we will have a better society as result.
I thank the Acting Chairman for his forbearance. I look forward to further discussion on the Bill.
Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 27 June 2012.