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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012

Vol. 770 No. 2

Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Seamus Healy has seven minutes remaining and Deputy Joan Collins has ten minutes.

This Bill and other proposed pieces of legislation represent a welcome shift in attitude by the Government. I welcome the Bill and I compliment both the Minister and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. There needs to be a change in the national attitude. I refer to a recent survey by the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children which found that 87% of respondents thought there was not sufficient information available about child protection and welfare. A worrying statistic is that 57% of those surveyed said they would feel nervous or not sure about, or would not report, a suspected case of child abuse or neglect. A total of 83% thought that children's rights are not protected in the same way as the rights of adults. The figure showing the number of people who are nervous about reporting suspected cases needs to change dramatically. Statistics from the Rape Crisis Network Ireland show that almost 80% of childhood sexual abuse victims were abused by someone known to them such as immediate family members, relatives or family friends. This fact needs to be dealt with.

While I welcome the Bill and compliment the Ministers, it is important that resources for support services are put in place along with the legislation. In my experience and I am sure it is the experience of many Members, persons supplying services to children such as social workers and allied health professionals and support staff, have significant case loads and they are currently under significant work pressure. There is no doubt that new legislation will impose further pressure on a creaking system. The report which was published last week stated that it is a service which is not fit for purpose. I worry that while we may have the written legislation in place, the necessary resources may not be in place to ensure that the legislation is operative so that young people, children and vulnerable adults, are protected properly. There is little use in having the legislation in place unless the service supports are in place.

I recently dealt with a young person who is just over 18 years of age and who is in difficulty. This young person is in no-man's-land, so to speak; nobody wants to deal with the individual who is apparently too old for the social work services and who is left in a very grey area. The Minister needs to ensure that vulnerable young people who may be just over the age of 18 are not cut adrift as is the current practice. I reported that case to various services and to date, that individual has not been contacted by any of those services. Only for the Society of Saint Vincent de Paul, that person would have a more significant difficulty. There needs to be a legal entitlement to after-care services. It is simply not good enough that persons who reach 18 years are no longer the responsibility of the State services. This point was made in the recent report.

The 24-hour availability of social work services is urgently required. We have been talking about it for years. Pilot programmes are in place in some areas but a national comprehensive service available on a 24-hour, seven days a week, basis, is required. I reiterate the point that the resources need to be put in place because the service is not fit for purpose and it is seriously overloaded and under pressure. This Bill and other legislative measures will create additional references to the various support agencies and in those circumstances, the current system which is creaking and is not fit for purpose, will come under additional pressure and will not be capable of ensuring that young people and vulnerable adults are protected.

Most Deputies will agree that this legislation is well overdue. Many people both here and abroad would be surprised that we do not have mandatory reporting of sexual abuse, particularly in the case of children, the elderly and people classified as vulnerable. I am pleased to note that the Bill defines a vulnerable person as a person suffering from mental illness or dementia.

In 1998 the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act was passed to deal with criminal offences and now, 14 years later, we are dealing with another aspect to it which should have been dealt with a long time ago. This is welcome legislation. It clearly defines who should report offences and what the defences are. The defence of ignorance can no longer be used as an excuse not to report these cases. I particularly welcome that the legislation also covers young females who are subject to female genital mutilation. That is an important element of the Bill.

While I welcome the legislation, it cannot be given the seal of approval until the points made by my colleague about resources are dealt with. This will be key to implementing the legislation. The HSE is creaking and social services are under huge pressure. The case load they are dealing with is horrendous, as I know from dealing with cases in my constituency where people have gone to social services about their own children. There are also the issues of child and family services, the Garda, counselling and protection of those reporting. I am aware of a recent situation where a person who reported child sexual abuse had to move away from the area. They did not get the protection they sought and went through a great deal of distress as a result. The back-up counselling and support that is required must be put in place for this legislation.

There is also the question of victim support. When the State takes over a case, even a murder case, the families are very much left out of the loop. They are not talked to and not engaged with by the barrister representing their case. That must be examined as well. Perhaps the Minister will clarify whether this is part of the Bill. It is important that these supports are put in place. There is no point in passing good legislation without providing the back-up for it, and our experience to date is that it is not available. Will all the services be resourced and not be required, as has been mentioned time and again, to do more for less? In this instance, one cannot do more for less. We are talking about the lives of human beings and people putting themselves forward for the first time in the history of the State under mandatory reporting.

The confidence of the public in our services has been completely undermined. The recent report on Tallaght hospital put forward 76 recommendations on standards. The Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, national standards for safer and better health care put forward 45 standards that must be improved. We have also just heard about Tipperary general hospital. Our mental health services lack resources. People cannot access support over weekends as it is a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. support resource. That cannot happen in this situation.

All these points must be taken on board in a holistic approach to this issue. Is the Minister putting resources in place to deal with the surge in reporting that will happen when this legislation is passed? There will be a surge, as was seen in other countries where mandatory reporting was put in place. I heard somebody say that in New South Wales there was a 600% increase in reporting. Have we the resources to deal with that? Are there resources and services for victims? These should be legally in place to provide vital support for people who have been sexually abused. The legislation is important but it must be linked with the resources required to implement it. We must see the new agency being established and working with the various agencies to ensure there is a check every quarter to assess how the services are progressing, that it is being supported and that it operates a 24 hour per day, seven day per week service for 52 weeks of the year. This is what is needed. Perhaps the Minister will address some of those points.

This morning, I attended a briefing in Buswells Hotel where Amnesty International made some good points about rights. Fr. Peter McVerry said that governments do not usually like to introduce rights-based legislation because it means they must resource it. Perhaps this Government can prove different and provide the resources that are necessary for this legislation. One of the Minister's colleagues made the point at the meeting that while it is good to have rights and that he tremendously supported them, he wondered whether we have the resources to provide these rights given the situation we are in. It is a fundamental human right for a person to have access to care and protection, and the person who committed the crime must be brought to account for the criminality. I will support the Bill but I hope to hear the Minister discuss those points further before I will be happy to ratify it.

I am sharing time with Deputy Donohoe and Deputy Áine Collins.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Criminal Justice (Withholding Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill. It places a duty on all people, not just health professionals or others working with children, to report certain specified, arrestable offences to the Garda. It defines "arrestable offences" to clarify what offences should be reported. It applies only where there is actual knowledge or belief about an offence.

I wish to deal with the effect of child abuse, and the Bill is a very important intervention in this matter. We all abhor child abuse and repeatedly talk of that abhorrence, but it is important to understand its effects and the destructive outcomes for children. When child abuse occurs, the victim can develop a variety of distressing feelings, thoughts and behaviours. No child is psychologically prepared to cope with repeated sexual stimulation. Even a two year old who cannot know sexual activity is wrong will develop problems as a result of his or her inability to cope with over-stimulation. A child of five years or older who knows and cares for the abuser will become trapped between affection or loyalty for the person and the sense that sexual activities are terribly wrong. If the child tries to break away from the sexual relationship, the abuser may threaten the child with violence or loss of love. A child who is the victim of prolonged sexual abuse usually develops low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness and abnormal or distorted views on sex. The child may become withdrawn or mistrustful of adults. He or she can become suicidal. Children who have been sexually abused have difficulty relating to others, other than on sexual terms. Some become child abusers or prostitutes or experience other serious problems when they reach adulthood.

There are often no obvious physical signs of child sexual abuse. A number of signs can be detected through physical examination by a doctor. Sexually abused children may develop an unusual interest in, or avoidance of, things of a sexual nature. They can experience sleep problems and often have nightmares. They can suffer depression and become withdrawn from friends or family. They might make statements about their bodies being dirty or damaged. They might think there is something wrong with them in the genital area. They may refuse to go to school, or become delinquent and have behavioural problems. They often become secretive. They sometimes display aspects of their sexual molestation in their drawings, games or fantasies. They may be unusually aggressive. The child may be extremely fearful of telling someone, although he or she might talk freely when a special effort has been made to help him or her to feel safe. If a child says he or she has been molested, parents should try to remain calm and reassure him or her that what happened was not his or her fault. Of course, they should seek a medical examination and psychiatric consultation.

As the Minister has a great deal of expertise in family law, I take this opportunity to raise the issue of the publication of reports of proceedings of family law cases. We must ensure that those reports do not contain any information that would identify the parties or any child to which the proceedings relate. I raise this issue because I recognise the Minister's international reputation and expertise in that area.

A key aspect of our justice system is that it is open to public scrutiny and can be evaluated by citizens. Another aspect is that legislators can evaluate and examine the way legislation operates in practice through the media reports on the effects of legislation. The publication of information will assist the public and ourselves as legislators to evaluate the effectiveness of our legal system in this area.

The family courts have taken an increasingly central role in the legal process in overcoming difficulties in relationships, particularly regarding the custody of children. We should examine whether our family courts protect the rights of children, and the rights of children is to know their parents and be parented by both parents regardless of whether they are married, divorced or separated, other than in exceptional cases where there is violence involved. Family law cases in this area usually deal with parents whose marriages have broken down or who are divorced. The children should be central to the issues examined by the courts. As a result of our lack of knowledge in this area, the Minister might use this occasion to give a quick briefing on the position.

As I stated, a child should have automatic access to both parents. We must evaluate whether the family law courts are operating according to this premise. A child should have the right to know and have access to all elements of his or her family tree, including genealogy and medical information. Society and the State should support mothers and fathers equally, for the benefit of society as a whole, in seeking to be equally involved in the shared parenting of their children both within relationships and marriage and through the promotion of the concept of joint custody of children as a normal expectation in the cases of separation and relationship breakdown.

The previous speaker mentioned children's rights and mental health facilities for children. Regarding the mental health of children, it is accepted that early intervention and treatment is crucial to full recovery in respect of child and adolescent psychiatric difficulties. We should have a recovery approach to the area of children's mental health. Children have a right to enjoy the highest possible standard of mental health. They have the right to enjoy a sense of well-being, control over their lives and the ability to realise their potential. Good health comes from having a balance in terms of all aspects of life - social, physical, spiritual and emotional. To vindicate the right to mental health, children need a supportive environment for themselves and their families and appropriate support and services when they experience difficulties. I appreciate the Minister is not directly involved in this area but I wanted to raise the issue with him. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, is very committed to this area but I am concerned about her success in regard to the €35 million allocated by the Government to the area of community-based mental health services.

A child's right to mental health today is far from vindicated. In a shocking violation of their human rights, children continue to be treated in adult inpatient units. Children face unacceptably long waiting lists for mental health services. There is patchy service provision across the country, responses that fail to meet basic needs and a lack of focus on early intervention and promotion that could prevent future problems for children.

With no national directory of services, navigating the system can in itself be a nightmare for children and their families. Insufficient supports are provided for Ireland's most vulnerable young people - those in the care and youth justice systems. The mental health system fails to effectively link with the education system in early years, and the first point of contact for children outside of the family is a crucially missed opportunity. Children's rights must be respected to ensure that each and every child is able to reach their full potential. That is not a pipe-dream but a vision that should become a reality.

In regard to child abuse, the initial and short-term effects of the sexual abuse of a child usually occur within two years of the termination of the abuse. These effects vary depending on the circumstances of the abuse and the child's stage of development. They may include regressive behaviour such as a return to thumb sucking or bed wetting, sleep disturbance, eating problems, behavioural or performance problems in school and non-participation in school and social activities. The negative effects of child abuse can affect victims for many years and into adulthood.

Adults who were sexually abused as children commonly experience depression. High levels of anxiety in these adults can result in self-destructive behaviours such as alcoholism, drug abuse, anxiety attacks, situation specific anxiety disorders and insomnia. Many victims encounter problems in their adult relationships and adult sexual functioning. Revictimisation is a common phenomenon in children who were abused as children and research has shown that child sexual abuse victims are more likely to be victims of rape or be involved in physically abusive relationships as adults. The point I am making is that we often do not fully understand the effects of child sexual abuse on the life opportunities and experience of people who suffer it.

I thank Deputy Collins for allowing me to contribute. I want to make three specific points on the Bill. I thank the Minister for being present to hear what Members have to say on it.

My first point is informed by reports I read recently of a Garda inspector's report into the way reports of child sex abuse were handled and whether that could be done differently or better by the Garda Síochána. That report makes clear the responsibility upon people who become aware of information regarding the sexual abuse of children. An obvious but important point to make is that we must now put as much focus as possible on what happens when such a report is made to the Garda Síochána and how that is handled.

Two points in the report stood out as a cause of concern. First, the report alleged that 65% of reported crimes of the abuse of children were not recorded properly. In an analysis of a group of sample cases of reported abuse within the Dublin area, it appears that a very small number of those cases had the correct documents completed detailing the responsibility of the Health Service Executive and the responsibility of the Garda Síochána.

We are making great strides forward in clarifying the role of people who have this information and their duty in that regard. The Minister has already acknowledged the recommendations in that report such as the need to have an Assistant Commissioner with responsibility for this area and ensuring that any reported cases go directly to trained detectives. I ask that we would make progress as quickly as possible in implementing those recommendations to ensure that the important developments in the Bill can be meaningfully implemented on the ground.

The second point concerns the issue of reasonable excuse in the Bill, which is the number of conditions upon which somebody who has information on the abuse of a child can be given an excuse by the law not to have brought forward that information. As the Bill winds its way through the Oireachtas, I ask that we refine and give thought to the meaning of that condition of reasonable excuse.

I am conscious that so many of the cases of child abuse that take place are perpetrated by people known to the victim and with whom they already have a relationship. It is important to refine the concept of "reasonable excuse" to ensure the Bill is properly implemented and does not provide any loopholes that can be exploited in the future.

With regard to the role of the HSE, I am aware the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, will bring forward Children First legislation shortly. I urge that both Bills are co-ordinated so that we do not find ourselves in a situation where somebody aware of information reports it to the HSE but then finds himself or herself open to sanction because of the implementation of this Bill.

I thank Deputy Áine Collins for allowing me in to speak at this time.

I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on this Bill. The Bill introduces a change to the criminal justice legislation to make it an offence to withhold information in respect of sexual offences. Every Member of the House and of society now insists that everything possible that can be done to protect children must be done. This Bill is just one small step in advancing that process.

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is making every effort possible to ensure that children are protected in society. She has done an excellent job so far and is dedicated to doing everything that is legally and administratively possible to achieve this. She has consulted widely and has been preparing for the children's rights referendum, which the Tánaiste announced will be held in the autumn as a stand alone referendum. Every party and Member is committed to achieving this, but the issues are complex. I was pleased to hear Mary O'Rourke praise the Minister on her work since coming into office on "Morning Ireland" recently. I would like to thank Mary O'Rourke for the work she did as Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children. That committee worked hard examining all the issues and submissions from interested parties. The proposed wording for an amendment from the committee was agreed by all parties, but the issue is complex. Balancing the rights of children and the rights of parents is complex, as is introducing any new wording into our Constitution. It is vital to get it right. However, we cannot continue pondering the wording forever. For that reason, the Tánaiste's announcement on timing is welcome. I noted from Mary O'Rourke's comments that she, as former Chair of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children, would be available if the Minister needed her in any capacity. She also went on to express the view, which I am sure is correct, that Fianna Fáil would do everything possible to facilitate the Government in its efforts to produce a wording for Dáil approval which would then be put to the people in the referendum.

This Bill is a stepping stone towards providing greater protection to children, as well as vulnerable adults. Under the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1998, it is an offence to withhold information in respect of serious criminal offences. However, as the Minister has stated, the provision of the 1998 Act specifically excludes sexual offences. This Bill now ensures there will be an obligation on persons who have knowledge of serious offence, including sexual offences against children or vulnerable adults, to inform the Garda. The loophole must be closed. It is arguable that had this provision been included in the original Bill, many children who subsequently became victims of abuse might have been protected. It is important to note that this Bill makes it an offence for every individual to withhold information, not just those involved in organisations, be they clerical, voluntary or State. It is an offence across the board. That said, there is a provision of which the public should be aware. It is not an offence if a citizen does not inform the Garda of vague rumours, innuendo or suspicions. This provision is included to prevent malicious rumours affecting innocent people. However, people with knowledge should always err on the side of caution and of the child. If people have concerns, they should report them to the HSE. It is important that the enactment of the Bill does not put undue pressure on the victims. Subsection (3) deals with this problem. A victim covered by the Bill cannot be guilty of the offence of withholding information if he or she does not report the offence to the Garda. It follows from this that a person who does not report the offence at the specific request of the victim has a legitimate defence.

The Minister has explained that the Bill has been drafted to complement the formation of the upcoming Children First Bill and the National Vetting Bureau Bill. The Bill demonstrates the separate and distinct roles of the Garda Síochána and the HSE. The role of the HSE concerns the protection of children and the Garda is the only authority that can investigate a criminal offence against a child. The protection of children must be central.

Last week's report from the independent child death review group highlights how bad the situation is with regard to dealing with children's issues here. We are all aware of that, but we must now stop talking and do something about it. I listened with interest to Dan O'Brien on the radio on Sunday and was struck by something he said. He questioned how the number of deaths of children in the care of the State compared with the numbers in other countries. I understand there are no comparative statistics. We do not know if the deaths in the care of the State are three times higher than elsewhere or lower. We need to find out in order to be able to measure or benchmark our figures. We also need to look at how other countries tackle the issue. We must examine what they do and consider how we can apply the lesson and make the needed changes. We did this in the case of road deaths and the number of deaths has dropped significantly over the years. We must do the same for the children in our care.

I am confident that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is so determined to get this right that she will consider these suggestions. This Bill is only one component in the Government's efforts to protect children. It is important that individual citizens understand their obligations under the Bill and that the HSE and the Garda ensure its provisions are upheld. I have no hesitation in recommending the Bill to the House.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012. The Bill deals strongly with the withholding of information on these offences. I will support this important Bill which is part of an overall strategy to protect children and defend their rights as citizens of this State.

In recent days we have seen more evidence of the abuse of children and deaths of children while in the care of the State. This was appalling and lack of action on the matter is not an option. This is not just a matter for the State or the HSE as we all have a duty to defend and protect the rights of children. In the past, too many people looked the other way, but they must now accept they have a personal responsibility. We must also consider the issues of abuse of alcohol and hard drugs. As we speak, too many children are suffering or are in pain because of the abuse of drugs or alcohol. Imagine the pain and anguish of a three or five year old child living in a home where alcohol or drugs are the norm or where violence is part of their daily life. How can we expect children living in such horrific conditions to be normal? How can we expect those children to learn at school when their personal lives are in turmoil? As a former primary school teacher, I have seen such children and have witnessed their pain, tears and hurt on a daily basis. The sad reality is that this is a cycle that continues and many of the children end up in care or in jail later in life. It is for that reason we need and I support legislation such as this.

Children in crisis need early intervention. They need care, support and above all stability. Stability is key. Children placed in stable homes, foster homes or proper care situations can be rescued if this is done early. I will return to this later but will deal first with the legislation itself. The Bill establishes in Irish law an offence of withholding information with regard to specified offences committed against a child or vulnerable person.

The offence arises where a person knows or believes that a specified offence has been committed against a child or vulnerable person and he or she has information which he or she knows or believes might be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of that other person for the offence and fails without reasonable excuse to disclose that information, as soon as it is practicable, to a member of the Garda Síochána. This is what the legislation is about and there are no ifs or buts about it. The Bill also provides for several offences against a charge of withholding information.

The Bill makes an amendment to the withholding of information offence in the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998. The use of the word "children" is important. It is clearly stated in the legislation that a child is a person under 18 years of age. This is crucial because as well as young child abuse there is a high percentage of abuse occurring at teenage level between 12 and 17 years of age. This is why I welcome the fact that a child is defined as being under 18 years of age.

A schedule 2 offence is an offence listed in Schedule 2 to the Bill. This Schedule refers to an offence to withhold information where such offences are committed against a vulnerable person. It is important to concentrate on the phrase "vulnerable person". There are many cases involving normal and natural children but there are other cases involving children and adults with an intellectual disability and we must be extra protective of these people. A vulnerable person is defined in the legislation as "a person who is suffering from either a mental, intellectual or physical disability which is of such a nature as to severely restrict the capacity of that person". It is important that this is stated clearly in the Bill. When dealing with children with a disability or children at risk, it is important to have examples of good practice.

We can have all the legislation in the world but if people on the front line are not doing their job efficiently then the cracks will emerge and we have seen this in the past. A good social worker, member of the Garda Síochána or primary school teacher can do a great deal of good and have a major impact. I have seen this in my previous job when I worked in a disadvantaged school in a disadvantaged area. I have seen juvenile liaison officers, JLOs, good social workers and good teachers intervene early in situations involving four and five year old children to assist the families. Often we hear about the bad and sad cases and those who slipped through the net but we do not hear of the cases involving examples of good practice.

There was a debate earlier in the year about DEIS programme schools. The Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and the Minister for Education and Skills should consider examples of good practice in many of these DEIS programme schools. Some of these schools are doing an excellent job and I have seen this at first hand. Often front line teachers, special needs assistants and care workers who have a strong relationship with the local juvenile liaison officer from the Garda Síochána have intervened quickly and these people have been supportive in resolving these issues. It is important to mention these people in the debate.

Section 2(3) confirms that a child against whom the specified offence is committed shall not be guilty of an offence under this section. This defence will continue to apply even when the person is no longer a child. This is important. Section 3 deals with the offence of withholding information on certain offences against vulnerable persons. This section replicates the provisions of section 2 and applies them to specified offences committed against vulnerable persons. The specified offences which apply under this section are listed in Schedule 2 to the Bill. This is crucial as well. We must be creative, radical and preventative when it comes to these issues. We have all heard of clerical and institutional abuse but we must deal with situations in which paedophiles adapt to the changing situation and do so cleverly. People involved in the caring sections of Irish society, whether in education or supporting children and adults with an intellectual disability, must be strong and protective of the children.

A debate took place recently on the number of children who have died in State care. There is an understandable questioning of the report into the deaths of children while in the care of the HSE. I know from first-hand experience and from discussing the matter with people who care for young people with difficulties that many of those involved can see the problems coming down the tracks when the children arrive in their homes and when they arrive in the institutions. Many of those working in these areas can foresee the problems and often feel powerless. This is the sad reality of the care business.

Often, by the time the HSE intervenes to try to protect young persons entrusted to it, it is too late. This is the sad reality but it is not trendy or fashionable to say as much in the debate. Some of these casualties may already be beyond saving by the time the State is called in to take them under its control. It should come as no surprise that many somehow manage to escape into meaningful adulthood. The other extreme is where some of these children have come through horrific situations but manage to survive and come out at the other end. This is something that has not been recognised in the broader debate.

I put it to the Minister for Justice and Equality that early intervention is central and it represents the real solution. Often, by the time a child reaches 12 years of age it is too late. The front line care workers and primary school teachers will testify to this. I taught sixth class and I saw children at risk from aged 12 or 13 years of age. We had a considerable job to try to prevent them from ending up on drugs, on the streets or in Mountjoy Prison. If one intervenes early, at least one can do something. The whole ground has changed in recent years and people have accepted this. The Minister for Justice and Equality accepts it, as does the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and the Minister for Education and Skills. Early intervention is central to dealing with this issue. This is based not on windy research but on the reality and the experience of people involved.

I referred to the children who make it. I have witnessed examples of children of 12 or 13 years of age who are living in crisis families and who are looking after smaller children of four and five years of age. These people are amazing. I have seen young boys and girls dressing their four and five year old brothers and sisters to get them to school in the morning. They must do so because of a particular dysfunction or crisis situation in the family. These children need our support as much as the direct victims. The carers of these children are often children themselves. Sometimes the carers are grandmothers and grandfathers who are supportive as well. I have seen children whose parents were strung out on drugs. These children were left in school until 2.30 p.m. or 3 p.m. and were not collected by their parents. The grandmother and grandfather were contacted by the school and they came to rescue the children. I am keen to mention these people in the debate because it is important.

Those of us on the left often refer to poverty and the neglect of children. Let us consider the reality. Often poor children from stable families will get on in life and I have seen this at first hand. Children from dysfunctional families, however, or families riddled with crime, alcohol or drug abuse, often end up in a difficult situation. How can we expect a two year old or a five year old child to be normal where there is violence and intimidation going on? One need only visit the courts on any given day to see the horrific nightmare in which children live with cocaine-fuelled families and high levels of violence. It is important to deal with the issue of children in crisis.

Institutions are important as well. We have modernised our institutions and care services. There are many excellent care services including St Michael's House and Prosper Fingal Services in Swords which deal with children and adults with an intellectual disability. These services have implemented their own good practices and they carry out a remarkable job.

I pay tribute to another group of people, namely, the foster parents of the country. These parents deliver considerable stability to families. They are Irish patriots and they have served their country. They receive some money to help fostered children but they also stop children going into institutions and they save many children. The work of the vast majority of foster parents is remarkable and I take this opportunity while the Minister for Justice and Equality is in the House to pay tribute to them. They have delivered for the taxpayer and the State. More important, the vast majority of them have delivered for the children of the country.

Debate adjourned.
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