Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Nov 2012

Vol. 782 No. 1

National Children's Hospital: Motion

Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

endorses the decision of Government to proceed with the construction of the new children's hospital on the St. James's campus on the recommendation of the Minister for Health;

expresses its desire to see this project now proceed as soon as possible, commensurate with the best possible design for optimal quality and safety in the provision of paediatric hospital services for children, with maximum efficiency and value for money and, in this context, supports the Minister's work for the establishment of the appropriate structures to ensure quality assurance, advice and guidance of the project;

welcomes the Minister's decision to bring the three existing hospitals together to form a single hospital group as soon as possible, with a single cohesive governance structure, a single budget and a single voice for children's healthcare, to help ensure the most effective development and future running of the hospital;

urges all the key stakeholders to co-operate and collaborate fully, to enable this project to be delivered in the quickest possible time, and in doing so, to produce a world class hospital which will serve as a beacon and an example of effectiveness and best practice of which the entire nation can be proud;

welcomes the publication of the report of the Review Group on the National Children's Hospital, the Dolphin report, and expresses gratitude for the work of the Dolphin group in supplying the firm evidence base for this key decision;

expresses gratitude to all those who made submissions to the Dolphin group; and

supports the Government's determination to ensure that this hospital, which is urgently required, will now be delivered.

I will share time with the two Ministers of State and other speakers.

On Tuesday I was delighted to announce that the Cabinet had accepted my recommendation to develop the new children's hospital at the campus of St. James's Hospital in Dublin. The rejection by An Bord Pleanála earlier this year of the proposal to develop a children's hospital on the Mater hospital site was very disappointing, especially given the many real strengths of that location. In response, I established a review group chaired by Dr. Frank Dolphin to advise me on the best way forward, and the group presented its report to me in June. Unfortunately, after careful consideration and further detailed analysis, the Government decided it could not proceed with a site with such a significant planning risk.

In identifying the new site, we have carefully considered the report of the Dolphin group along with detailed supplementary information on cost, time and planning issues. I must again express my praise to Dr. Dolphin and his group for the key role they played in helping us reach our conclusion. The report of the Dolphin group reiterates what all previous reports on the children's hospital have stated: any decision must be based first and foremost on clinical considerations. Both the Mater hospital and Saint James's Hospital have the necessary clinical mass. Both are at the cutting edge of Irish health care. However, the Dolphin report and subsequent work undertaken by members of that group have made it very clear that the planning risks associated with the Mater hospital site are still significant.

The decision about where the new children's hospital should be situated was not an easy one. Over the summer the Department and I looked closely at all the proposals submitted, each of which had its own particular strengths. I thank all the hospitals which took part in the review process for their hard work and dedicated enthusiasm. In the end, however, a decision had to be made. There can never be a perfect site but, as has been said before, we must not let perfection be the enemy of excellence.

This decision has been made in the best interests of children, with clinical considerations being paramount. It is essential the new children's hospital can deliver best clinical outcomes for children. Co-location with an adult hospital has been deemed essential by the Dolphin report, and by all previous reports on this issue, while tri-location with a maternity hospital is optimal. Co-location, and ultimately tri-location with a maternity hospital, on the St. James's Hospital campus will support the provision of excellence in clinical care that children deserve.

I intend to move quickly to put in place all the necessary arrangements to enable the delivery of this project as quickly as possible and to the highest quality. This Government regards the building of the new children's hospital as a key priority and no effort will be spared in expediting its completion. We must now get on and build this hospital to the highest quality with best value for money as quickly as possible to ensure children receive the best possible treatment in the best possible environment.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Alex White)

I, too, welcome warmly the decision of the Government on the location of a new national children's hospital. Notwithstanding our critical economic and financial circumstances, the challenges associated with which we are still addressing, the Government has remained faithful to a commitment in the programme for Government to construct a new national children's hospital. This is an important landmark in our building of an excellent health service for the people, particularly children, and it is a vital element of the Government's health strategy. The decision is one in respect of which there was considerable deliberation, weighing of the options and analysis.

I join the Minister in congratulating and complimenting all the professionals involved in this important work, including those who might have preferred a different decision on the location. The work, while technical and very professional, was public spirited. All those concerned were dedicated to the same objective, namely, to reach a quick decision allowing us to build a hospital after the disappointing Mater developments.

As the Minister stated, there is no perfect site and no perfect solution to the question asked. However, this House and the people can be satisfied. In the Dolphin report, the merits, demerits and risks associated with the various proposals were all carefully considered. Subsequent to its publication, the Department of Health and the Minister examined this very clear and helpful report and carried out a further planning assessment. As the Minister rightly stated, while clinical considerations are paramount, we must have regard to the planning issues and site issues. The Minister arranged for Mr. John Martin and Mr. Simon Clear to re-examine the planning context of the proposals, and they came down very persuasively in favour of the site on the grounds of St. James's Hospital, notwithstanding that it presents some risk. The risk is referred to as "moderate" but, when one weighs it against the planning risks associated with the Mater site, which are significant, one realises the correct decision has been made.

Nobody can say there is a perfect site but it is ultimately up to the Government to make a decision on the basis of the best evidence and analysis available to it. That is what has occurred. I congratulate all concerned and look forward to the building of the new hospital, which will be carried out as quickly as is humanly and financially possible, as the Minister indicated.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I am sharing my time with Deputies Catherine Byrne, Eric Byrne and Michael Conaghan.

Given my constituency, I am probably the only speaker present who does not have a vested interest in the location of the hospital. The old saying, "Prevarication is the thief of time", always springs to mind when dealing with the issue of the children's hospital. The children who are in need of such a service are not particularly interested in the location. While access, planning conditions and the facility are important, the delivery of an excellent, first class service for the children in need of it is of central importance. We really need to keep this in mind.

In the areas for which I am responsible, I am constantly trying to remind people it is not a question of the jobs associated with service delivery but of the individuals who need the service. We must continue to tell ourselves that.

We will have a first class service. I have direct experience, through a family member, of service delivery in Our Lady's Children's Hospital, Crumlin, and I noted the service was excellent, with incredible outcomes. However, the building was inappropriate and it is becoming increasingly inappropriate. We need to bring the type of medicine and service we deliver to our children into the 21st century. We need to do so in an environment in which the children feel comfortable, and we must ensure parents will be glad when the new hospital is built.

I congratulate the Government once again. The decision has been a long time coming. As the Minister said, let us get on with it.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I welcome the decision to locate the new national children's hospital on the site of St James's Hospital. I respect the decision of the Dolphin review group, which considered the options and chose carefully. Ultimately, the choice of site has been made purely for the benefit of sick children and their families. It is a question of health and well-being and not of political point scoring. It is also a question of ensuring sick children are looked after in the environment most important to them.

The site of St James's Hospital will work very well. The decision to locate the new hospital there has been welcomed warmly. I am sure my colleagues in the Chamber, on both Government and Opposition sides, will do their utmost to ensure we can proceed as quickly as possible despite all the difficulties that may arise.

The site fulfils all the relevant criteria, including having adult and paediatric hospitals side by side. The site enjoys great services, including the Luas and a good bus service. I live very close to it. I do not envisage too many significant barriers to building a hospital that has been so long awaited. The sooner we have the green light to go, the better. The hospital will be most welcome for everybody in the country, not just those in the James's Street area.

Deputy Eric Byrne

This is a great day for the children of the State and their mothers, fathers and families who have been campaigning for so long for a national paediatric tertiary hospital. I had the pleasure of serving on the board of Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin for many years. Before that, I was on the board of St James's Hospital. The people will be blessed in that they will have two of the most professional hospitals deliver badly needed services to children.

I remember the horrible days of children having to be flown to the United States for operations because we did not have the appropriate facilities in Ireland. Many children are still flown to London in England for various operations that the medical profession tells me could be carried out in Ireland if proper facilities were available. I am thankful they are now coming on stream. The biggest victory is for the parents and the children, who are so often in need of life-enhancing operations.

The proposed location is of great reassurance to the very many medical professionals, including nurses, be they Irish or Filipino, and other members of staff in Our Lady's Children's Hospital, Crumlin, who have invested in their communities in Crumlin, Drimnagh and Walkinstown, where they have bought property, are rearing families and sending children to school. They are happy to know that, since the new hospital will be within walking distance, they will be able to remain in their communities.

I remember the early days in which the medical professionals in Crumlin had to engage with those in the Mater hospital. There was much tension as there was a different ethos in each institution, one of which was Catholic. Eventually, the doctors and other medical professionals prepared a plan for the Mater site. Although the plan was ultimately abandoned, all the work is not lost and can be incorporated into the new development.

I thank the Dolphin review group for having identified the site at St. James's Hospital and for having been bold enough to suggest to the authorities there that the maternity hospital site was not big enough for a paediatric unit and that a larger one was required that would allow for the construction of a building that would be sufficiently low to prevent major planning problems.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

In choosing St. James's Hospital as the location for the national children's hospital, the Government has opted for the right site for the right reasons. This decision was never about green fields or proximity to the M50; it was about children's medicine. St. James's Hospital was the choice of all the experts, both national and international. It was supported by the existing children's hospital in Crumlin and by such distinguished commentators as John Cooper, the leading architect of hospitals in Europe. Above all, it was the location recommended by Frank Dolphin and his expert group. The scaremongering that took place in recent days, since it became clear that St. James's Hospital was the front-runner, is disgraceful. I am particularly disgusted at the suggestion by the clinical director of Connolly Hospital that an inner-city location would scare children.

Located on the St. James's campus, the new facility will be connected to Ireland's leading hospital. It will have access to an unrivalled level of medical expertise and a range of clinical specialties that is second to none. This decision is clearly in the best interests of our children. The new facility will bring great prestige to the south-west inner city. It is the equivalent of a major multinational company setting up in an area and will give a huge boost to the local economy. It will create jobs, both in construction and in the operation of the hospitals, and support local businesses. Furthermore, it will encourage a generation of young local people to consider a career in health science.

At the press conference on Tuesday, the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, referred to the potential for creating a medical quarter in the south-west inner city. The new children's hospital will join St. James's, the Coombe, the Trinity Centre for Health Sciences at St. James's and many other services and facilities in the district. It has the potential to be a world-class health campus. Will the Minister expand on the measures he proposes to take to develop and capitalise on this concept? I thank him and his ministerial colleagues for their efforts on this issue.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Although the Government's motion is somewhat self-congratulatory in its wording, the decision on the development of a national paediatric hospital is welcome. There is a broad consensus that this development is required urgently in the context of a debate that been ongoing for a long time. The McKinsey report in 2006 recommended that construction of a national paediatric tertiary hospital should commence as quickly as possible. Since then, public discourse has featured a range of competing views on the precise location of the facility. This debate was sometimes divisive not only at a political level, but also within the medical professions and among the various hospitals in the city which already provide excellent care under very difficult circumstances. Given that tri-location is a feature of international best practice, the different hospitals were bound to have a view on which would offer the best location.

My party welcomes the fact that a decision has now been made on foot of the Dolphin report. The focus now must be on ensuring there is strong co-operation between all of those involved, most particularly the amalgamating hospitals at Temple Street, Tallaght and Crumlin, in the further development of paediatric services. In tandem with the construction of the facility, it is crucial that there be sufficient preparation in terms of the provision of paediatric specialties and the structures of governance in order to ensure a smooth transition to the operation of the new facility. That is the challenge to individual hospitals and those with the expertise in paediatric care. The focus of the process from now on must be to expedite the construction, support it through the Estimates and ensure there is an upgrading of specialties in paediatric care.

The question does arise as to what will happen in the interim. We are all aware of the straitened circumstances in which the Government is operating. My concern in this context is that there might be a natural inclination to reduce funding for the existing hospitals that are providing paediatric care. I am not saying it will happen, but there might be a tendency to downgrade those facilities in anticipation of the opening of the new hospital in 2017 or 2018. If such a downgrade is permitted, it will be very difficult to enhance the provision of the sub-specialties that are required in the area of paediatric care. Some specialties remain dependent on the expertise of the adult teaching hospitals. There must be a clear focus on building up capacity between the three existing hospitals to ensure there is sufficient expertise and specialisation to operate the new facility effectively. I am not seeking to inject negativity into the discourse in raising this issue, but it is a concern that has been expressed to me by management at the various hospitals. The danger is that officials in the Department of Finance who are looking at the budgetary position might conclude that in advance of the provision of the new hospital in 2018, they can scalp a little here and there in the three existing paediatric hospitals. This, however, could have a detrimental impact on the increased capacity and specialty-building that is required for a national paediatric hospital.

Many people had views on the suitability of the Mater site, which was independently assessed by medical peers internationally. Of the two reports on the Mater option, one was commissioned by the previous Government and the second by the Minister, Deputy James Reilly. The latter stated that all things being equal in terms of medical care, the provision of an adult teaching hospital, maternity and paediatric hospital in a tri-located site was the best option from a medical point of view. The authors of the report acknowledged the difficulty of identifying any site which would fit all of the criteria. The bottom line is that if An Bord Pleanála had made a different decision, we would now be proceeding with the Mater site. The decision An Bord Pleanála actually did make led to a delay in the process and that uncertainty is now concluded with the identification of the St. James's site as a suitable alternative. The latter does not fit the best international practice requirement of a tri-located facility with maternity, paediatrics and an adult teaching hospital located on the one site, but that is something we simply must accept. The report states that there is potential to develop a maternity hospital on the St. James's site. If planning permission is granted for the proposed facility and construction proceeds as envisaged, the next obvious step would be to develop maternity facilities on the campus in order to comply with best international standards not only in terms of paediatrics, but also in the treatment of women who experience complications during pregnancy and after childbirth. All of the international reports suggest this is the optimum type of facility.

As we are all aware, children in this State sometimes have to be transferred to Great Ormond Street Hospital and elsewhere for highly specialised treatment. While our objective should clearly be to provide as broad a range of specialties as possible in our own national paediatric hospital, we should nevertheless seek to enhance co-operation in this area on an all-island basis and between Britain and Ireland. In the case of very high-level specialties, no single hospital might have an absolute capability in delivering a particular service simply because it does not have the capacity or throughput. As well as focusing on the governance structures required to operate the new hospital at optimum capability, we should also consider how the services provided there can be complemented through co-operation with children's hospitals in the North and in Britain, including Great Ormond Street and Newcastle.

Is it possible that with close co-operation, children from Britain and Northern Ireland could equally be coming to our national paediatric hospital for high end, specialist interventions? Rather than having a duplication that may not provide the highest level of specialties, we would have co-operation. The Department officials might examine that in discussions with their colleagues in the UK. It is something most people would welcome.

We have an uncanny knack of spending more on construction than we have budgeted for. Due to the downturn in construction costs, there is now a key opportunity to be imaginative concerning the national children's hospital we aim to create. I know there are financial constraints, but €200 million has been set aside from the sale of the national lottery and a capital envelope will be available in addition to philanthropic support. I do not know how much funding support there is from the business sector and the broader community. Some form of tax relief could be made available through the Finance Act to people who make a donation towards the construction of the national children's hospital. I do not know whether that idea has been considered or discussed. If people wished to make such a contribution, that tax relief might encourage those with resources to assist this iconic flagship development for the children of Ireland.

The timeline has slipped somewhat and reference has been made to 2016, which will mark the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. The 1916 Proclamation referred to "cherishing all the children of the nation equally". In this context therefore, the Government should at least bring forward some proposal in the Finance Act whereby people who wish to provide any amount of money for the development of the national children's hospital could offset it against tax. It would be an inducement to encourage people to contribute. I ask the Minister of State to examine this idea, although there may be a downside to it. None the less it might stimulate a bit more interest if people were encouraged in this way.

As regards the Dolphin report, I wish to put on record my party's appreciation of the efforts of Mr. Dolphin and that group in assessing the sites. We welcome the report's findings and broad recommendations. Overall there has been strong political support for the St. James's site but I acknowledge the contrary views. I wish to raise one point, however, that I raised the other day on the Order of Business. The Cabinet made a decision, yet within minutes we were informed by the media that there had been a massive row at Cabinet. We were told that two Ministers, Deputy Leo Varadkar and Deputy Joan Burton, were adamant that the Blanchardstown Connolly Hospital site should have been the location. I have no difficulty with views being expressed around the Cabinet table. I assume that is how Cabinets work, although I was never there. There is meant to be Cabinet confidentiality, however, and a collegial decision. Despite this, we had the unsightly scene of Ministers falling over themselves to get out of the Cabinet meeting as quickly as possible to tell the media locally that they fought tooth and nail for Blanchardstown or other areas. That undermines what we all are trying to achieve here, which is to have this project embraced nationally in order that it will be seen as a flagship project without dissent or division. What happened was unsightly and inappropriate to say the very least. I know that everyone plays to their constituencies, but obviously commitments were made that they would raise this issue. None the less it was grubby.

We now need to see a strong commitment from the Government to ensure a financial stream is available for the development, involving the planning process and including drafting and drawings. There should be no delay in getting approval from the Department of Finance. The sale of the national lottery licence has been mentioned with €200 million being provided. The national children's hospital project will cost €500 million, which is a capital stimulus in itself. It will provide a lot of employment in the short and medium term, both in drafting and construction, which will benefit the locality as well. This national hospital will be for all the children of Ireland. Proper facilities must be put in place outside the capital city for the transfer of children who may need specialist treatment in the national paediatric hospital. Helipads, ambulance and other transportation services must be available as part of the overall package so that this is seen as a national children's hospital for the island of Ireland.

I wish the project, and those who are overseeing it, well. The Department should put expertise to the fore to observe the continual development of the project, to ensure it is on time and within budget and that any complications that could arise will be ironed out in advance. Funding is critical. Once the drafting, design and planning is out of the way, a stream of funding must be made available for the continual development of the building until such time as it is completed. In tandem with that, there must be a smooth transfer to the new location of the three hospitals currently providing paediatric services. On behalf of the latter hospitals, I will be watching to see that there is no downgrading or penny-pinching in the new facilities, or any lack of support for the development of the sub-specialties that are urgently needed. As we develop the national children's hospital, those sub-specialties must be in place in order that a smooth transition can take place from the existing hospitals to the new one.

This is an opportunity for all those providing paediatric services, including consultants and medical teams, to embrace this project and ensure we have an excellent facility for the children of this country in the years ahead.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The way this matter has been approached by the Government is very unsatisfactory. We have been presented with a unilateral Government motion when the Minister should have sought consensus now that the location of the children's hospital has been decided. I welcome the fact a site has, one hopes, been chosen finally, but no approach was made to me, as the Sinn Féin spokesperson on health, regarding this motion. There has been no consultation with any of the Opposition health spokespersons, which is the Minister, Deputy Reilly's hallmark, both within his Department and beyond. It is inappropriate for such a self-congratulatory motion to be proposed by the Minister himself and then to be taken in the context of statements. We had all understood that we were here to participate in statements.

I welcome that a site has been chosen finally for the new national children's hospital. This process has gone on for far too long. The immediate priority now must be to move quickly to the planning and development stage. Every effort should be made to expedite the delivery of this vital facility as near to the target date of 2016 as possible, despite the disappointing view from the Minister, Deputy Reilly, that the target can not now be reached.

The story so far of the, as yet unbuilt, national children’s hospital has been a sorry saga, not least for the children and parents of Ireland. It is nearly seven years since the McKinsey report recommended a single tertiary hospital for children located in Dublin. The Mater hospital site was chosen early on by a HSE task force but immediately there was controversy about the suitability of the site and competing bids from other existing hospital sites in the city, as well as other bids from potential developers of greenfield sites, became available.

We then had the establishment of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board by the former Minister, Mary Harney, in May 2007. After further controversy, two successive chairs of the board resigned in October 2010 and March 2011, respectively.

The review of the site location commissioned by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, then followed, with the Mater site confirmed in July 2011. At that time, it appeared as though the final chapter had been reached but this hope was dashed with the refusal of planning permission by An Bord Pleanála in February 2012.

I earnestly hope the decision announced by the Government this week is the final word on the issue of location. The focus now must be on delivering this vital and long overdue health care facility for the children of Ireland. However, lessons also must be learned from this overly protracted, complex and highly controversial process and key questions arise in this regard, which I ask the Minister of State to note. Why did it take five years from the initial choice of the Mater site to the submission of a planning application? Why was the negative decision of An Bord Pleanála on the scale of the proposed hospital on the Mater site not foreseen, especially given the years it took to get to the planning stage? Alternatively, could such an outcome have been foreseen at all? Perhaps that is the case. Does this decision raise further questions about the consistency and judgment of An Bord Pleanála? After all, this is the same board that approved the monster shopping centre for the nearby Carlton site on O'Connell Street with total disregard for the impact this would have on and the threat it would represent to the Moore Street national monument. What role did medical politics and competition between different hospitals, including key professionals therein, play in this saga? I note there is plentiful evidence of this again, even after the announcement was made this week.

What does all this say about the manner in which the health care system is run in respect of both policy and strategy and the manner in which services are delivered? The State is funding a hospital system in which major hospitals are, to all intents and purposes, independent entities, often acting in a competitive manner and sometimes in a hostile manner, as the location controversy once again has shown, rather than co-operating as integral parts of a coherent network. Certainly, the latter description is what must be achieved and that point must be reached. This saga shows that coherence is still lacking in the system and as such, it is not serving patients well. It is certainly not providing the best value for public money.

One thing is certain, which is the children of Ireland have been badly let down. They have depended for too many years on three existing children's hospitals that are inadequate when it comes to providing the requisite care. Having made that point, I salute the great dedication of staff and the high standard of care provided at Crumlin, Temple Street and Tallaght hospitals. However, these hospitals all agree their premises and facilities are not sufficient and that a new national hospital has been needed and is necessary. While the saga over the location of the new hospital has continued, the aforementioned three hospitals have struggled on. I join with other voices in emphasising it is critically important that they be properly resourced while we await completion of the new hospital. I add my appeal to those made earlier in that regard.

The Government must ensure full support for the existing children's hospitals, which are struggling to cope and to that end, it should halt the vicious regime of health care cuts of the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, which affect the children's hospitals as much as other hospitals in the public system. I note the chairs of the medical boards of the three existing children's hospitals have urged the Minister to proceed without delay with the plan to build a maternity hospital at St. James's Hospital. While welcoming the Government decision to build a children's hospital on the St. James's site, they stated that the facility needed to be tri-located with an adult hospital and a maternity hospital. The letter to that effect was signed by Dr. Ciara Martin of the National Children's Hospital, Tallaght, Dr. Stephanie Ryan of Temple Street Children's University Hospital and Dr. Sean Walsh of our Lady's Children's Hospital, Crumlin. It also was co-signed by Dr. Colm Costigan, clinical director of the three Dublin children's hospitals, as well as by Professor Alf Nicholson, clinical lead of the HSE's national paediatric programme, who I knew in an earlier life when we both were serving members of the North-Eastern Health Board, God bless us both.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I thought the Deputy was going to mention some other organisation.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Regarding tri-location, the Minister’s announcement on Tuesday was most unclear on the development of a new maternity hospital and the relationship between the St. James’s Hospital site and the Coombe hospital site. It was difficult at first even to confirm from the Minister’s presentation, which I watched on my monitor via the Internet link with the Government press conference centre, that the children’s hospital would be on the St. James’s site and not on the Coombe site, as the Dolphin report appeared to indicate as a live option. The Minister of State might be more clear in this regard, particularly on future plans regarding a new maternity facility. As has been said many times, no site was ever going to be ideal or perfect and whatever site was chosen would always pose challenges, including the St. James’s Hospital site. The disappointment of those who had made the case for other sites is understandable, particularly the Mater hospital site, which had reached such an advanced stage. It is understandable that some will feel greatly disappointed by this decision.

That said, other matters must also be addressed now and my Sinn Féin colleague representing Dublin South-Central, Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh, has stated the St. James’s location is good news for one of the most disadvantaged communities in Europe, not merely on this island, and it is to be hoped the Minister will ensure there will be a social dividend to the local host community, over and above the jobs the hospital will bring to the area. There should be a local labour clause and the construction team and the hospital management should work with the nearby local regeneration projects to ensure they also benefit. There is ample evidence of how this can work on the island of Ireland and it is of huge importance to have a social clause in all of this as the project proceeds. The adjacent Fatima Mansions and partially derelict James’s Street should be borne in mind while building work is occurring on-site, with many empty apartments and retail units available for ancillary services and for homes for nursing and other hospital staff. A much wider view should be taken of the potential of this new development within its host community. It is to be hoped this will lead to the regeneration of local business in the vicinity and in the medium term will further encourage the long-awaited regeneration of the largest social housing complexes in Dublin, namely, Dolphin House and St. Teresa’s Gardens.

I echo the call on the Minister by my colleague to clarify for what future uses the existing children’s hospital buildings will be used. In particular, I am very interested in Our Lady's Children’s Hospital, Crumlin which has had recent building works carried out, including operating theatres, wards and other facilities. In the limited opportunity available at the end of this debate, I ask that a reply be given to these questions, as there is considerable concern as to the Government's intentions regarding those facilities, particularly those in Temple Street and Crumlin, with a particular focus on the latter in my case. I wish to place on record my support and that of my party for the proposal that the new hospital be named after Dr. Kathleen Lynn, founder of St. Ultan’s Hospital, medical doctor and participant almost 100 years ago in the 1916 Rising. She was one of the most courageous and dedicated of Irish republican women and indeed of Irish women generally. She laboured for decades in her hospital in the service of the children of the poor, which was both progressive and pioneering. As for her vision for its expansion, anyone who takes the time to explore the full story will note her efforts were thwarted by the then all-controlling hand of one John Charles McQuaid. We need the inspiration of women such as Kathleen Lynn today. She is a fine person to be so considered and for her memory to be respected into the future.

In conclusion, I urge that this national project be expedited and delivered as soon as possible. Every possible support and encouragement certainly will come from this quarter in that regard. I refer to what I hope is my understandable annoyance about a motion that literally was simply flown in.

It was landed on our tables without so much as a telephone call or a by your leave. That was utterly inappropriate.

We must now shift the focus entirely from where the national children's hospital will be located, as we hope to be absolutely certain it will proceed at the St. James's campus, which I fully support. We must now consider what the hospital can do for the children of Ireland. There is the matter of displacement, as mentioned by the Minister of State's colleagues earlier, and we still see young people in need of particular specialties being flown from here to Great Ormond Street Hospital. I have been directly involved in a number of cases from my own constituency and elsewhere in that regard, and it will be truly wonderful when the people of Ireland will be able to access all of its respective specialty and wider care needs at this new facility for the children of this country.

Deputy Joan Collins

I move amendment No. 1:

After the final paragraph, to insert the following new paragraphs:

"calls on the Government to ensure:

- that, pending the opening of the national children's hospital on the St. James's campus, the existing children's hospitals be properly funded for much needed facilities and investment;

- that workers in the present hospitals will be guaranteed jobs in the new hospital, and that they will not have to reapply for their positions; and

- that a public health facility should be maintained on the Crumlin children's hospital site."

I welcome the Government's decision to locate the national children's hospital at the St. James's campus, which is relatively near the Coombe. There was no perfect site for the hospital but it is a welcome relief for the many parents of children who have been waiting for a decision to be made after the fiasco of the past seven years. With other local politicians I was part of a campaign to save Our Lady's Children's Hospital. Many people felt the Mater site was not practical for parents to access with regard to traffic in the city centre, taking in location, size and density. It did not seem practical for children who are very sick and need help and support.

It is a welcome decision for parents nationally and the workers involved. Many people who rented accommodation in the area will not have to travel across the city to look for somewhere else, and people who have roots in the community will not have far to go, including those from Tallaght, Temple Street hospital or the Crumlin and Drimnagh area. Community organisations would also welcome the decision.

The decision emanated from the report of the Dolphin review group, which had among its number four paediatric professionals; in itself that was good because those people would indicate if a site was not agreeable for a national children's hospital. I also note the three boards at Crumlin, Tallaght and Temple Street hospitals welcomed the decision. We should move speedily to planning applications, although it has already been indicated that the new national children's hospital will not be open for at least six years. There is a concern because doctors have described facilities in Crumlin and Temple Street hospitals as obsolete and not fit for purpose. Children require proper facilities now in the three hospitals that are providing care. For example, the cancer ward in Crumlin has no private rooms for terminally ill children, and parents of critically ill children are sleeping in corridors and wards. Similar problems are to be found in Temple Street, which has cramped and outdated facilities as well. There was a recent report, for example, that children with wheelchairs cannot access wards. Facilities must be maintained and resourced, and the first part of the amendment calls on the Government to ensure that existing children's hospitals would be properly funded in order to procure much-needed facilities and investment.

Workers, particularly those in the cleaning area, are concerned because they may have to reapply for their jobs in any new children's hospital. These people's jobs should be guaranteed by the hospital and over time these people should not feel any discrimination.

A public health facility should be maintained on the Crumlin site. Deputy Ó Caoláin asked what use would be made of the site and the campaign with which I was involved wanted to see a public health facility in and around the hospital. I hope the Government will take on board the aspects of the amendment I have put down. It is important to workers in the area and the community. Moreover, the three current children's hospitals must be properly funded and facilitated.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak to this urgent and important debate on the proposed new national children's hospital. I am very disappointed by the Government's decision on this major national issue. I have always wanted the hospital location based on the best medical opinion, and that should have always been the priority. This is not about parking cars or visitors to hospitals but rather best international practice and saving children's lives. During the debate in the past couple of months, we have seen many distractions, which I will address later.

My support from the outset has always been for the Mater hospital proposal. I listened to all sides of the debate, involving many international experts who made cold and practical medical decisions, and all of them came down on the side of the Mater hospital's proposal. I did so too, having listened to the different views. It is not a popular position but it is important that this view is represented. It is not trendy and I have received a fair amount of criticism over a number of weeks from people I term "the traffic brigade". We are talking about a children's hospital and not worries about parking or clamping. We should be concerned about having the best medical people in the same complex and area, working together to save children's lives.

This is not about traffic or space but the very best international medical practice and providing the best expertise for sick children. I was saddened by some of the misinformation doing the rounds in this debate over the past few weeks, particularly as it related to the Mater site. Professor Brendan Kinsley has indicated that the hospital's new bid deals with any planning concerns from the first proposal, as it has fewer floors and more land than previous plans. He also indicated that the hospital was chosen by an independent international team of medical experts as the best place to house the new children's hospital.

The original proposal for the Mater site was rejected by An Bord Pleanála, which prompted for the process to be opened again. Listening to experts and people with medical experience, the issues become clear. Professor Kinsley has indicated that the Mater is the only location that can deliver an adult, maternity and children's hospital in one place. The Minister knows this. Professor Kinsley argues that the planning problems in the Mater site bid have been addressed. He points out that the hospital board was not involved in the original plan, which was put together by the national children's hospital development board; we have not heard that point doing the rounds over the past nine or ten weeks. Professor Kinsley states: "Tri-location is the principle. We have addressed the planning issue. We have brought down the height of the proposed new development and increased the footprint by a third". He also said that the decision must be based on what is best for children and not the lowest common denominator of planning, which is a fair and reasonable comment.

He also stated that the Mater adult hospital was a brand new facility and had been delivered on time and on budget. These are major pluses in this debate. Professor Kinsley stated the Mater hospital was picked by experts in a process that involved all the major hospitals, including St. James's Hospital. This fact has not been doing the rounds, but it should have been heeded.

For these sensible reasons I proposed and supported the Mater hospital plan. It is not a local political issue. The hospital is in Dublin Central whereas I represent Dublin North-Central. The key issue is that many people were excited by the plan and have been bitterly disappointed. However, the reality is that we must consider the issues of child health, child care and children's services.

I hope that nothing goes wrong with the new planning proposal, given all the discussion and money that has been spent. The €26 million spent on the Mater hospital proposal has gone down the drain. Government Members should consider what they could do with €26 million in terms of services for people with disabilities or, for example, carers, where there is a shortfall of between €10 million and €12 million. A group of people visited me yesterday on that matter. How many minutes do I have remaining?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Deputy Finian McGrath

My apologies. I was disappointed about the Mater hospital site, as I believed it to be the best option. However, the decision has been made and I hope we can build a hospital that will serve the children of the State.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this debate on the national children's hospital. I also welcome the decision that has been made. Regardless of what our opinions on sites were, we must move with all haste to build a children's hospital as soon as possible. It must be a priority.

For a number of years, there has been unanimity regarding the need for a hospital that would provide primary services for children from the Dublin area and tertiary services for children from the rest of the country. It was also the view that, while existing services were supported excellently by staff and parents, they were not up to standard and needed to be replaced by a new children's hospital.

I wish to ask about the timescale for the new development. It took approximately five years to establish that the project could not continue on the Mater hospital site. I hope that something similar will not recur. Will the Minister indicate the timelines for the development stages? He stated it could be 2018 before children would be cared for in the new hospital, but that is too far down the road. I hope and expect it will be done more quickly.

I wish to raise the issue of a maternity hospital. Priority was given to co-location with an adult hospital, but everyone accepts that tri-location should have been the real criterion. I was surprised and disappointed by the Minister's statement to the effect that a new national maternity hospital had been put on the backburner. Will he address this issue in his response? What is the timescale for the building of such a hospital and when will the preliminary work begin? Some people have suggested the maternity hospital aspect is so important that the new children's hospital should be built on the Coombe site. This indicates how concerned people are about a lack of tri-location.

A number of Deputies have raised another concern, namely, the Minister's opinions on Crumlin, Tallaght and Temple Street hospitals and how they will be upgraded, their services maintained and their standards improved so they can provide excellent services pending the construction of the new national children's hospital. I hope the Minister will assure the House that resources will be made available and that there will be no question of reducing resources to the existing hospitals prior to the new hospital opening.

An Ceann Comhairle

That completes the initial statements. We now move to questions and answers. I ask Deputies to be considerate, as we only have 20 minutes. Deputies should be snappy with their questions. I will take two questions, call on the Minister and allow two further questions, if that is agreed.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I will be brief. In the context of the transition from the three existing pediatric hospitals, what commitments can the Minister give to the effect that their facilities will not be downgraded? We are trying to ensure that strong pediatric specialties develop prior to the move to the national children's hospital. Will the Minister commit to providing sufficient financial support for the continued development of pediatric services in the three existing hospitals? They could be covered by a single governance and budgetary structure without any downgrading. This is the key issue.

What funding streams will be put in place for the new hospital? The sale of the national lottery will provide €200 million, but will the rest come from the capital programme, philanthropy or somewhere else?

I raised an issue in the Minister's absence. Will he speak with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, concerning the potential to encourage philanthropy by way of tax relief on donations to the development of the national children's hospital?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Minister assure the House that the new hospital will increase overall bed capacity and reduce waiting times for children? In other words, will the sum of the beds in the new hospital exceed the total number of beds at the three existing sites? Waiting time, not location, is the primary concern for parents. They need to see significant improvements in waiting times. What of the future with regard to the hospital facility at Crumlin? Will the Minister outline for the House exactly what is intended there?

I would like to share my opportunity with my colleague, if that is fine.

An Ceann Comhairle

That will not be a problem. I will call Deputy Crowe separately.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I thank the Ceann Comhairle.

Deputy James Reilly

To address Deputy Kelleher's question, of course funding will remain available for the development of new treatments within pediatrics. However, the further development of the hospitals at those sites would not make any economic sense when we are building a new hospital. None the less, Crumlin has received funds that it is using to develop new surgery facilities etc. on its site. Clearly, to continue developing new facilities as opposed to new treatments at that site would not make as much financial sense as focusing on and expediting the provision of the new hospital in so far as we can.

I take on board Deputy Kelleher's suggestion vis-à-vis the Minister for Finance and the tax treatment of philanthropic donations to the new hospital. I will raise it with the Minister.

Some €200 million from the national lottery and €360 million of capital funding will be used to complete the hospital's development. We are satisfied that we have the money required to complete construction. We are looking to philanthropy for investment in research, research facilities and education.

We think that would be a hugely important aspect of what this new hospital affords us the opportunity to explore, so that we can develop new treatments not just for the children of this country, but for children around the globe.

In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin's first question, the new hospital will have more beds than the current complement but I do not think that is what is important. The Deputy's second question is the important one which continually consumes me. For far too long, there has been too much focus on inputs - how many doctors and nurses there are, how much money there is and how many beds there are - and not enough focus on outcomes for patients and, in this case, outcomes for children. How many children are treated and how quickly are they treated? That is the key here and I am absolutely convinced that this new hospital will afford us the opportunity to treat many more children much more quickly and to reduce waiting times considerably.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

I have two specific questions and I will be brief. My first question relates to the development board which will oversee the construction of the hospital and the delivery of the services. Will it remain as is? There is a view among some sections of the media and politicians that we should just build this and get it over with. That was the attitude adopted towards the Mater site. The Minister, others and I do not want to be back here in a short space of time covering the same territory. All those people are doing us a disservice and that is why I am concerned about the delivery of the hospital, although I do not think the Minister will be pushed into a situation. As others have said, it is about children's health care for perhaps two generations or more. It is important we get it right.

I refer to the ambulatory and urgent care centre to be located at Tallaght hospital, where I would have preferred the children's hospital to have been built. Will the Minister comment on the scope and the role in regard to its delivery?

I know it is far too early but I heard Deputy Ó Caoláin refer to Kathleen Lynn in regard to naming the hospital and I am with him 100%. She was probably the bravest woman, or most courageous person, to become a Member of the Dáil. She did not stay very long but that is for another day.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I refer to the decision itself. Many hospitals applied to have their sites selected. People are concerned about how the decision was made and I have trawled the media and listened to the Minister in this regard. In the interest of transparency, how did we come to the decision? Many hospitals believed they fulfilled many of the criteria, including the one in my area.

Deputy Maloney asked about the ambulatory and urgent care centre. There was also talk of a maternity element in Tallaght but I presume that will now be knocked on the head. Questions have already been asked about the future of Crumlin children's hospital. What will happen to Temple Street children's hospital, which was linked to the development of the Mater site?

The Minister said he had no concerns in regard to possible planning difficulties but there are difficulties in respect of this site. There are buildings on it which will cause major problems in regard to planning. Access, which people raised in regard to the Mater site, will be a problem. Any fool who travels through that area in the morning and tries to get in and out of that hospital will know there are major difficulties there. I detect that there will be problems. I know the Minister is confident there will not be the same problems as with the Mater site but there is concern locally in regard to many of these matters and how they will impact on people.

Deputy James Reilly

In response to Deputy Maloney, the development board remains in place. The terms of office of many of the people on that board will expire on 5 December. I have stated publicly that I wish to engage with them to see what role they see for themselves in the future. I said on radio yesterday that some people have interpreted this in some sort of negative way but I see it as a very positive thing. The people who served on the board served very well. I regret, as I am sure they do, that it was not possible to build on the Mater site but the planning risk was too high. I have absolutely no doubt that many of those people can have a role in the future and I hope they will avail of the opportunity to do so, in particular in the area of philanthropy.

I would be concerned, as Deputy Maloney is, about any sense of let us just get it over with quickly. This is not a case where that approach is suitable. There is much complexity. I suppose I am answering Deputy Crowe's question too in that there is still much difficult work to be done and difficult decisions to be made in regard to this hospital and I do not underestimate the planning difficulties. At no point did I say I had no concern about planning. I still have concerns and I acknowledged that in the report by saying that the risk is moderate and has been mitigated significantly by the fact that the original site which was 2.44 ha has now been expanded to 6.2 ha. We have a much greater site on which to operate.

The issue of tri-location is very much on the cards. We have ample room on this site to build not only the national paediatric hospital, but to build a maternity hospital in due course. As we all acknowledge, this country faces a very serious financial challenge and the funding is simply not available to do a tri-location at the moment but I hope we will be able to achieve that goal. There is sufficient land left for that and for other developments in the future.

I have no doubt the nomenclature of the hospital will attract much attention and all sorts of discussions on how we might decide that and, indeed, whether there should be a competition involving the children of the country. That question remains open.

In regard to the ambulatory and urgent care centre and the scope around that, there were three areas on which we could not make a final decision until the site was agreed. One of them was the ambulatory and urgent care centres because until we knew where the hospital was going, we could not determine how many of these centres we would need. The original plan was for one in Tallaght but perhaps we will need two or three and we need to examine that now. We will do so very quickly. The other areas were governance and information technology. Those areas are being aggressively addressed as I speak.

In regard to the Coombe hospital going to Tallaght and that whole issue, nothing has been decided yet. The process is important, and it will be important to all those people involved in the bids. I said in my opening remarks that I wanted to thank all of them for the efforts they put in. Each of the bidders, in regard to the hospital groups, made very genuine and well-intentioned bids for what they felt was the best option for the future treatment of children in this country. I acknowledge and thank them for that.

The process was very fair and open and the reports will be made available and published so there can be no question of doubt that something as major as this, which will have to serve our children for a number of generations, as Deputy Maloney said, was done in the best interest of children and of affording them in the shortest time possible the best environment in which to receive what they often already receive, the best treatment.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The Dolphin report, in looking at the proposal from St. James's Hospital, recommended that the site be larger than that proposed, thereby eliminating the proposal by St. James's Hospital for the maternity hospital at the Rialto end. The whole site will be developed as the national paediatric hospital. The Minister would be very conscious that the Coombe hospital is very old. We were both there recently and to my horror, I was brought from where the Minister spoke to Cork Street through very narrow ancient corridors.

It was very strange, so we must urgently address the need for the maternity hospital. I was delighted to hear the Minister say there is still a possibility of it on the St. James's Hospital site. Will the Minister now encourage the board of St. James's Hospital to look afresh at its site with a view to relocating the planned maternity hospital there?

I will conclude with a question that has already been posed. Bishop Martin is the chairman of the board of Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin. That hospital will continue to function as a paediatric hospital until the new hospital is opened. Will the Minister engage with the Roman Catholic Church, which owns the site, with a view to seeing how we can accommodate the bishop in the delivery of other services such as senior health care, primary health care, care of the disabled and so forth on the site? It would be a shame to lose that site to developers or others in the future.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I understand the approximate timetable for the project is six months to pick a design team, one year to design it and another year to go through the planning process. I am aware that under the strategic infrastructure Act passed some years ago this project will not go through the local authority but directly to An Bord Pleanála. I developed the Italian Quarter in conjunction with Dublin City Council. We sat down with the council and while we designed it the council officials advised us at the same time so there was no row at the end of the process, as was the case with the Mater hospital proposal. An Bord Pleanála is not structured to work in this way; that was not the initial thinking behind it. However, this is not an appeal. Perhaps a structure could be set up in which An Bord Pleanála could be proactive with the designers, unravelling difficulties at an early stage rather than running into problems further along the process. An adjustment of An Bord Pleanála would probably be required to make this work, but it is something the Government should consider. It would be time well spent as it could save time and money and ultimately result in a happier arrangement.

Deputy Joan Collins

There are three aspects to the amendment I tabled. Pending the opening of the national children's hospital, will the Government ensure the existing children's hospitals will be properly funded for much needed facilities and investment? The Minister visited Crumlin hospital a number of years ago in respect of ward closures due to funding. There are problems with the cardiac unit and there are problems in Temple Street Children's University Hospital as well, where the doctors have said the facilities are obsolete and not fit for purpose. We really need a fantastic national children's hospital at St. James's Hospital but there is concern that while we wait for that the services elsewhere should not be allowed to go downhill or fall behind. There is also concern that workers in the existing hospitals would be guaranteed jobs in the new hospital. This means that if there are 50 cleaning jobs in the new hospital, the workers from the three other hospitals should be given first access to them and not have to re-apply for their jobs. In addition, a public health facility should be maintained on the Crumlin children's hospital site. What is the future for that site? The church gave those grounds to the HSE to develop the site and it is part of the board. It would be a useful public health facility in the future.

Deputy James Reilly

In response to Deputy Eric Byrne, I have serious concern about the three maternity hospitals in Dublin. All of them are under pressure. Thankfully, there are more births in this country than ever before. Previously, there was an average of 60,000 births per year, but it is now 72,000 or more and the maternity hospitals in Dublin are creaking at the seams. They all require upgrading. It is a serious matter and as soon as we have this problem resolved we will have to deal with that problem. It is an acute problem, so I am examining it very aggressively and trying to explore ways in which we can secure capital that would allow us to address the issues that these hospitals raise for new mothers and newborn babies.

I apologise to Deputy Crowe. I forgot to reply to his question, which Deputy Collins and Deputy Byrne also raised, about the future of the Crumlin site. Of course we will engage with the proprietors of the site to explore its future and to see what contribution they are prepared to make to the overall movement to the new paediatric hospital.

The well known difficulty we all must live with when building a new structure, be it a home or hospital, is that one must maintain the existing structure and continue to give people a safe service with dignity. The issue of tri-location is very much alive. There is no question that just because we have not made a decision today, it will not be something we see as the optimum thing to have at the end of the day.

Deputy Wallace raised the issue of the timeline of six months to get a design team, a year for design and a year for planning. We will do everything in our power to telescope and minimise that. I agree with what the Deputy said, as I had the same experience. Wearing one of the many hats I wore before becoming a Member of this House, I developed a town centre. I know how the planning process works and about the toing and froing about the design to ensure everybody is happy and that it gets a positive decision. That is more difficult to achieve with An Bord Pleanála, which has historically been the port of last call. It does not consult. In fact, what I hope to do, without changing any legislation, is to use the good offices of Dublin City Council. I will ask it to become an interlocutor between the design team and An Bord Pleanála so a conversation can take place without involving any lack of probity or proper behaviour. That would give the team a clear steer on where it is going so we can avoid a refusal or minimise and mitigate that risk. We do not want that to happen a second time. We can shorten many of these timelines too by doing certain things in parallel and we are considering that. One thing we are doing is retaining the existing design team for the initial phase so we can expedite things very quickly.

Deputy Collins and others raised the funding issue. The funding of the paediatric services will continue as it is. As I mentioned to Deputy Ó Caoláin earlier, I am very focused on outcomes, not inputs. I am happy to inform the House that there are 800 fewer children waiting for inpatient treatment this year than last year. Our focus will continue to be on getting more children treated more quickly. That is what this new hospital is about, as well as creating new treatments from which not only our children but children around the world will benefit.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is now entitled to a few minutes to reply to the debate.

Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly)

I will be brief. I thank all Members for their contributions. We all want to see this hospital built as quickly as possible and we all want what is best for our children. I do not doubt any Member's bona fides in that regard.

It is an important time for the children of Ireland. At a time of immense financial challenges for our country, the Government is determined to follow through on its commitment to build a world class children's hospital. Ultimately, a nation can be judged on how it treats its children, particularly its sick children. On the St. James's Hospital campus we can achieve, over time, the ideal of a fully integrated tri-location of children, adult and maternity hospitals. The building can and must become the iconic symbol of our resolve to provide the best model of care for all the children of Ireland. It is also important to point out that it is often at times of greatest difficulty that we bring out the best in ourselves and can produce the best results. This is another opportunity to do that. Ultimately, it is about putting children first and even in these difficult times the new children's hospital can and will become a beacon for all of us. This decision will also advance the social and economic development of our city.

It is our duty and that of all the people involved - the hospitals, clinicians, all the staff in the hospitals, the general practitioners, GPs, all involved in primary care and those who will be tasked with building and delivering the hospital - to pull together as one.

I have no doubt this project will cause inconvenience in terms of traffic during its construction. I hope we remember the great prize we are looking to at the end of the process and that we show forbearance and good humour and help those who have this difficult job to do it as quickly as possible. Those in existing paediatric hospitals must, in effect, become one and be the new national children's hospital immediately, long before the facility is opened as the new national paediatric hospital. A wholehearted, co-operative effort is essential to the success of the project. I hope we will not hear about people representing the hospitals they previously represented as opposed to being interested in making the new hospital work on behalf of all children.

I intend to move quickly to set up the necessary structures and governance arrangements to enable the delivery of the project as quickly as possible and to the highest quality. The Government, the Department, the HSE, the partnership hospitals and I are determined to see the project happen. It can be a beacon for us in these difficult times. Let us make this, for all our children, a world-leading hospital of which we can be proud.

I thank all those involved for the hard work that has gone into the project. I am committed to providing the best possible health service for our children and their families. I look forward to progressing the building of the hospital as soon as possible, giving the children of Ireland a world-class hospital, which they deserve.

While I accept the spirit of amendment No. 1, I cannot accept the amendment as it would tie the hands of the Government in a manner that could be counter-productive and could place an additional burden on the Exchequer.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister was not here when other Opposition spokespersons had their opportunity to make statements. It is regrettable and counter-productive that the Minister thought it necessary to table a self-congratulatory motion in the first instance. We had signalled that it should be statements and there has been no engagement with Opposition spokespersons regarding the motion launched into the pit at the last minute.

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 2 cannot be tabled until amendment No. 1 is disposed of.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I move amendment No. 2:

After the final paragraph, to insert the following new paragraph:

"calls for a structure to be put in place to facilitate engagement between An Bord Pleanála and the design team at all stages in order to fast-track this project."

The Minister was hoping to use local authority planners as a liaison with An Bord Pleanála. This morning I spoke to planners in the local authority. While it may not be legally possible, the Minister should pursue working in a different way with An Bord Pleanála. Perhaps the Minister can speak to An Bord Pleanála to see if it is possible to meet at an early stage. An Bord Pleanála is the decision maker at the very end but this will be a drawn-out process unless we seek to change the structure.

Deputy James Reilly

I accept the Deputy is trying to expedite the process but the proposal may have the effect of delaying it if we must put in place a structure and introduce legislation. I take on board the sentiment expressed by Deputy Wallace. We are anticipating his suggestion in terms of using the existing planning structures to have an interlocutor, a planning authority, to deal with An Bord Pleanála. Having spoken to senior officials in one or two of the local authorities, I believe we can do so. I hope Deputy Wallace will withdraw the amendment on that basis and I will happily talk to him afterwards about how we can expedite the process.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Out of the goodness of my heart, I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put and agreed to.