I thank the Minister and the Deputies for their contributions. In summation, I will touch upon each of the statements made by the Deputies, if they will bear with me. I have taken notes and I hope I do not reflect anyone's position incorrectly in responding to the points raised.
Deputy Michael McGrath talked about the need for greater transparency in politics and in what the Government is doing and about making politics more relevant to people. He is absolutely correct. The purpose of the Bill is to make politics more relevant, to make the connection clearer to people as to why they pay taxes and the great things they get from their taxes, and to help them partake in the debate on where the priorities should be and to do that in a more informed way.
Deputy McGrath talked about people being of a mind to go looking for the information themselves. Some people are, but not everyone is. As Deputy Griffin said, it is good for the Government to be proactive sometimes and to go to the people and say, "This is what we are doing with your money" so they do not have to go looking for the information. Government finances are complex. When looking at the different documents, it can be difficult for a layperson - it is difficult for myself - to wade through them and to find the required information. Anything the Government can do to help in that regard is important.
Deputy McGrath also talked about the P60 that is issued annually, as did the Minister for Finance. Combining the P60 with what I am trying to achieve with the Bill is a good idea. Deputy McGrath talked about the level of detail we would go down to. That would be an interesting debate on Committee Stage. What level of detail would be given under each sub-head? How far down would we drill into the numbers and give the information back to the citizen?
Deputy McGrath raised concerns about the Bill being divisive and he referred to those not paying tax. This was also raised by a couple of other Deputies. This is where the second component of the Bill, regarding the VAT and excise calculator, comes in. Not everyone pays income tax but everyone pays taxes. Our VAT rates are quite high and people make a significant contribution to the public purse through VAT on goods and services. The second component of the Bill aims to bridge the perception that it could be divisive. People could make an estimation of what they might have spent on goods and services in the course of a year, take the VAT from it, put it into a calculator and get the exact same breakdown as an income tax payer would get.
He also mentioned the difference between attitudes to increases in VAT and to the introduction of the household charge, and how difficult it is for the Government to bring people with it in this regard. He is right. It cuts to the core of the purpose of the Bill. We want to keep people on board and to tell them what we are doing, because we need them to support the Government and to be a part of the difficult process that is currently under way. I welcome Deputy McGrath's contribution and his support for the Bill.
Deputy Pearse Doherty talked about a more participatory government. That is exactly what the Bill is about.
It is about increasing participation for Members of this Chamber both in the reforms the Chief Whip has brought in and Friday sittings but also feeding the debate into the process the Minister has in his own Department through Committee Stage debate and by other ways. That is what one hopes to achieve with these Friday sittings and why they are so important. I take the point about the need to examine the cost if we issue a statement to everyone at their home.
Deputy Doherty questioned the need for legislation in this area. The White House website has a tax calculator where people can input an amount of income and get a breakdown of the tax they pay and see where it is spent, for instance, how much goes on the United States nuclear weapons budget. As for the need for the legislation, it is about being proactive. No one has done this before. The British are moving towards this but they have not done it yet. If we put it on a legislative footing, it is not solely at the discretion of the Minister. That might be important in years to come. It is also important to have legislation originating from a Member of the Dáil rather than a member of the Government. That is unique and can show an expression of support from the Dáil itself, as distinct from the Government, which is an important difference.
Deputy Doherty said this was a strange priority for my first Bill but it is in fact my third Bill. My first Bill was the Smarter Transport Bill, which dealt with new measures for urban transport that would make it cheaper for people. Transport costs can be expensive. My other Bill was to put in place an ethical investment policy for the National Pensions Reserve Fund. That would be an important statement about who we are as a society. This Tax Transparency Bill is important because people face difficulties. Taxes and charges are increasing and the cost of living is going up. New elements are coming in and people are struggling under the new burdens being imposed on them. It is only right that they should be able to have full confidence in how we are spending their money and that there is full transparency in what the Government is doing so when they see these new charges coming in they can support them and can see how that money is being spent. That is why it is so important. In a way, it is fundamental to everything we are trying to do, it underpins the whole transparency debate, not just this Bill, but the greater transparency the Government is trying to introduce. It is a basis for everything we are trying to achieve in making this fiscal correction.
I thank Deputy Doherty for his and his party's support. He mentioned including the cost of politicians' pensions, and that would be in the indicative breakdown I gave for "Jane Duffy". Of the €10,000 plus she would pay in income tax per year, €13 was the price she would pay for the Oireachtas and its Members. That is an important point.
Deputy Boyd Barrett spoke about making comparisons on a year-on-year basis. That is important and if we issued a statement, people would be able to do that. People would keep the statement because there is a Government harp on it and it would be considered an important document. They could then make comparisons year on year. I am not sure that would be possible with an online solution; we must look at that.
Deputy Boyd Barrett also mentioned our debt as a country. There is a line in the statement that covers the contribution that each person makes to the debt but I note that 75% of our debt is general Government debt, the cost of running the country over a number of years, and it is not banking related. Every time we talk about debt it is important to make that distinction. The Deputy also raised the idea of the creation of a new privileged class of those who pay tax and, therefore, pay for everything while others are excluded. It is an important point but I have already mentioned that the VAT and excise calculator would capture that because everyone pays taxes and they would be included there.
Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned the possibility of providing more information. The more information, the better as far as I am concerned. He gave the example of a pie chart to give a breakdown of the tax structure between corporation tax, income tax and everything else. That is important. If we were to give a breakdown, however, of the different taxpayers at different rates, and what percentage they made up, it could be divisive.
The tax system is complicated, as are Government finances, and hopefully this will shed some light on it. It will make our expenses and priorities as a Government more accessible to people. We should not be afraid of transparency, including the sort of information outlined by Deputy Boyd Barrett on tax reliefs or taxes forgone. We should not be afraid of the debate that would arise from providing that information because it could only ultimately help the Government. This is about oversight and accountability and I thank the Deputy for the points he raised.
Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan spoke about the debate on fairness and said this contributed to that debate. She wanted a reasoned debate on taxation that could continue. That is very important and I hope if this Bill is adopted and the measure comes through, even as an on-line calculator, it will contribute to an informed debate and help us understand what we mean when we talk about fairness and what it means to the people represented by each Deputy. Not everyone is computer literate - I take that point - and their rights must be recognised. We must have some statements for corporations, and going back to Deputy Boyd Barrett's point, why not provide a breakdown of that information? It is an interesting idea. I welcome the comments on positive discrimination for businesses working in the domestic economy and doing what we can in terms of job retention.
I thank the Minister for being present in the Dáil Chamber today. I am privileged he is here to debate the Bill and I thank him for his contribution. I note and welcome the transparency moves he and the Government have made to date. I welcome his outlining his practical concerns and I believe they could be addressed on Committee Stage. We do not want to duplicate resources. We would need to amend the Bill so the statement would show the tax a person paid in the last year and how it was spent rather than using it is as a forecasting tool around budget time. I take that point. As for the online calculator interface, I am not sure if it would require a secure portal. The White House example allows people to input their own information to get the results, there is no security or password system but people who are more technically inclined than I am could look at that.
I welcome the proposal that the P60 might direct recipients to such a resource, informing them if they want more detail on how spending their taxes has been prioritised, they can visit the website, input the information and receive a breakdown. I welcome the Minister's support and thank him for his willingness to see the Bill proceed to Committee Stage.
Deputy Griffin drew attention to the VAT calculator on the website and the way to calculate excise duty, and how that would include all taxpayers. It is an important point, we are not trying to be divisive, we want to give everyone a fair idea of how we prioritise the money they are paying into the public purse and how we are spending it on their behalf.
Deputy Kyne drew a correlation between the budget each year and how it might affect people's pay packets. It is an important point because people could see how each budget directly affects them and the contribution they make to the public purse. They could see that trend over a period of time. When an election is coming up, they could look at the Government's priorities.
Deputy Lawlor said it was great to see a former Naas player getting the distinction of the Irish captaincy tomorrow. It is important to note that he is now a resident of Dublin South East so we are claiming him as one of our own. The Deputy pointed out that people might ask why they should pay if they saw this information. People ask that question because they do not know what the money is being spent on. The greater the transparency, the better we can answer that question. It is right for people to ask, as Deputy Phelan said, and we should not fear their questions and should not be afraid to give the answers either. At local level, we should draw a greater correlation between what is being paid and what is being delivered and if we give local authorities proper revenue raising powers we can hold them to account with this information.
When I talk about tax transparency when I meet people canvassing or in my clinic, local spending is often the issue they raise. They ask why graffiti is not being cleaned up or why there are potholes in the road. Tax transparency is more meaningful for them in their day-to-day lives when we can put these figures before them. If, however, we think keeping people ignorant about what the Government is doing with their money will help us in what we are trying to achieve, we would be mistaken. We should always favour information over ignorance.
I thank Deputy Finian McGrath for his support and for participating in the debate today. Deputy Deering supported the idea of issuing a letter and the Minister mentioned the possibility of doing something with the P60. That is welcome. Deputy Deering spoke about the buy-in from the public through this measure and he is right, this is about involving people, including in the corrections we are making in the budget, in our priorities. Going back to the "Jane Duffy" statement, it is right we are spending more money on primary education than on third level, that is our priority and people can see it in their tax transparency statements. If they want us to spend more in another area, they are basing that opinion on a tangible element relevant to what they contribute.
Deputy O'Donovan spoke about social cohesion and exclusion and again I would point out that everyone pays tax and the VAT calculator would work out that contribution for people online. He mentioned the role of the Committee of Public Accounts and the work it does. I thank him for raising that because this information is complex and detailed and every week, week in, week out, the Public Accounts Committee is trying to drill down into the detail of how public money is being spent to ensure it is spent appropriately and efficiently. While not everyone pays as much attention as we would like, this will bring it in a proactive way back to the people. The Comptroller and Auditor General, however, and the Committee of Public Accounts could do with more resources. In the tax transparency statement, where "Jane Duffy" will see that only €13 of her €10,000 is going to the Oireachtas, she might welcome an extra 20 cent if that meant the committee would have those extra resources. I thank Deputy O'Donovan for his contribution and for taking time to be here today.
Deputy Harris spoke about the benefits this could raise at election time and I thank him for highlighting that aspect. It would be very important if we could put proposals by parties into this formula and be able to outline what it would mean for how a party proposes to spend people's contribution to the tax spend. That would bring an extra level to debate at election time that we have not previously seen and I would like to see that introduced.
Deputy Hannigan talked about the costs and the online element. I believe he made the point that we might not need a secure portal, with which I agree. He also spoke about extending the system to local authorities and he is right in that regard. That is an area of great importance for the taxpayer.
Deputy Heydon spoke about how people could twist this information. While I accept they could, he gave an excellent example of how to twist it back. We must not be afraid of the tough questions, nor about giving the answers we need to give. I thank Deputy Kevin Humphreys for being here. He talked about involving people more in the budget. He gave a very good example of how he was doing that and I hope the provision in the Bill for a statement could help in some way. It is right that we should also cover local expenses and give a proper breakdown. I welcome the Deputy's constructive contribution and his ideas, especially regarding the incremental change through introducing this Bill. We could start with a tax calculator online and perhaps in three years proceed to issuing a statement. We could start with €20,000 as we have, move to €15,000 and down from there.
I thank Deputy Durkan for making the link between tax transparency and election pledges. I thank Deputy John Paul Phelan for his support and his considered contribution. I thank Deputy Neville for the important point he made. Deputy John Paul Phelan spoke about how this is about how we are spending taxpayers' money and it is important to show to people that is our priority as a Government.
I again thank the Minister, Deputy Noonan. I note the great strides in transparency being made by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin. It is important to note all the good work the Government is doing. All today's contributions mentioned that and referred to helping in what the Government is doing and helping in the debate about tax, the budget and transparency. This is an issue we need to pursue. Open government is good government and we should not fear greater transparency because greater transparency in public affairs delivers greater accountability and with it better performance. It will make Government spending more visible and more acceptable to the individual. It will generate greater buy-in from people and strengthen the social contract. I again thank everyone who contributed today.
