It is proposed to take No. a15, motion re referral of the general scheme of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2012 to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the sub-Committee on Privileges; No.19, Credit Union Bill 2012 - Second Stage (resumed); and No. 5, Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2012 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; that No. a15 shall be decided without debate; and that the resumed Second Stage debate on No. 19 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. Topical Issues shall be taken at 3.45 p.m. and followed by oral questions which shall be brought to a conclusion after 75 minutes. Private Members’ business shall be No. 73, motion re education funding (resumed), to conclude at 9 p.m., if not previously concluded.
Order of Business
There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a15 agreed to?
Not agreed.
I am sorry, but I am in an unfortunate position. As the Deputy is not representing a party, in accordance with Standing Orders, I am prevented from allowing her to speak. It is only leaders of parties who can raise such issues.
Can the Ceann Comhairle not use his discretion?
I am not agreeing to this proposal because the general scheme will be referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is legislation-----
The Deputy will appreciate that she is now out of order.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges meets in private session. It is inappropriate for legislation to be referred to a committee which meets in private session.
Will the Deputy, please, resume her seat?
The proposal lacks the transparency required.
I ask for the Deputy's microphone to be switched off.
The proposal lacks the required transparency.
I ask the Deputy to resume her seat.
I am objecting to the proposal on the grounds of transparency and openness.
Will the Deputy, please, resume her seat? She knows the rules as well as I do.
The rules are a joke.
Well then, have them changed. I have to apply them.
The Ceann Comhairle will not engage with us on that issue.
It is up to the Members of the House to change the rules. It is not up to me.
We cannot play hurling if there is no ball on the pitch.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges does not meet in public.
Is Deputy Gerry Adams objecting?
I have no issue with the point in question, but, in deference to Teachta Catherine Murphy, her point has to be ventilated.
If the Deputy is not disagreeing with this proposal, then-----
As a party leader-----
I am sorry, Deputy, but this is not the place-----
Gabh mo leithscéal, a Cheann Comhairle.
Please, Deputy, do not put me in an awkward and embarrassing position. The Deputy knows the rules. I am not trying to prevent anybody from speaking. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat, please.
I have the right to object, as a party leader.
The Deputy is entitled to speak if he is objecting to the proposal.
I am objecting to it. I am making the point that I am objecting-----
To the proposal.
I am objecting on behalf of Teachta Catherine Murphy and the point she made that this process should not be conducted in private session.
Does the Deputy not have his own view on the matter?
The Technical Group is in disarray.
The heads of the Bill were approved by the Government on 31 October. In line with a commitment already given to provide for more effective scrutiny of legislation by the Oireachtas, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has referred the heads of the Bill to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform which will conduct pre-legislative scrutiny. The process will involve a full, open and transparent examination of the heads of the Bill. The Government, separately, will refer the heads of the Bill to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in each House to allow them to examine the elements of the Bill within their remit. The general scheme of the Bill has already been referred to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform for a full, open and transparent examination in public session.
Can the Committee on Procedure and Privileges not meet in public session when it is examining the heads of a Bill?
I am informed that this is purely a technical issue. There is nothing to stop other committees from discussing the heads of the Bill openly and in public. There is nothing to stop any committee of the House from discussing the issue.
Tá
- Breen, Pat.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Browne, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burton, Joan.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Cannon, Ciarán.
- Carey, Joe.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Collins, Niall.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deasy, John.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Enda
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Mathews, Peter.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McHugh, Joe.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- McNamara, Michael.
- Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Mahony, John.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Troy, Robert.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Collins, Joan.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Ross, Shane.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Wallace, Mick.
I ask for silence for the Order of Business, please. I give Members notice that every minute is taken away from the time available for the Order of Business. We now have only ten minutes left because of the vote and the longer the delay, the worse it gets.
Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19 agreed to?
It is not agreed.
It is not agreed.
I call Deputy Adams.
The credit union movement is one of the great national social movements on the island and many people and families depend on it. The Government is introducing banking regulations which are not appropriate to deal with a voluntary organisation such as the credit union movement and under which many smaller credit unions will not be able to function. Therefore, every Teachta Dála must have the opportunity to speak on this issue, if he or so wishes. The use of the guillotine will not allow them to do this.
The Irish League of Credit Unions which represents 3 million members asked specifically in its submission on this legislation that there be no attempt to foreclose debate on the Credit Union Bill in the House. It has expressed extreme concern about the potential damage that may be done to the fundamental, voluntary and democratic ethos of credit unions. It is also deeply concerned that the imposition of legislation dealing with banks that wrecked the economy will have a detrimental effect on credit unions which bear no responsibility for the current economic crisis. Is it the case that the guillotine is being imposed in order to suit the timetable being demanded by the troika? If that is the case, it is unacceptable. I ask the Taoiseach to lift the guillotine and allow for a full debate on this important legislation which will affects millions of citizens.
The content of the Bill is the subject matter of the debate. As a member of a credit union since my earliest years, I am very conscious of the different tradition that has evolved over time in the credit union movement. That said, it is important we strike a balance between protecting the members of credit unions and having proper prudential provisions and preserving the ethos of the credit union movement. In that context, will the Taoiseach confirm there will be ample time provided and additional time, if necessary, for the debate on Second Stage in order that the views of Members can be fully articulated? There should be no great difficulty in agreeing to this, as I suspect there are no unnecessary demands in terms of time made by external bodies.
I do not want to cause a row. At the Whips' meeting last week all of the Opposition Whips requested that the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill dealing with the issue of risk equalisation be debated all day in the House today and tomorrow. However, because of the level of interest in the Credit Union Bill, it was decided to include the Bill in the agenda for today. Members may sit an hour longer tonight if they want to, or perhaps they might prefer to have a discussion with the Whips after the Order of Business. The Credit Union Bill must pass through by Christmas. There is a lot of backed-up material that has to pass through the House. The Bills must also pass through the Seanad. I do not wish to guillotine the debate, as Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett consistently suggests.
That is what has been proposed on the Order of Business.
The Deputy's group was anxious that the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill be taken all day today and tomorrow.
We objected to the use of the guillotine.
The Deputies object to everything. That is the nature of what happens here. I am not objecting to extra time being given to debate the Bill, if the time can be found. I suggest to Deputies Micheál Martin and Gerry Adams that the Whips discuss the matter with the Government Whip to try to find an extra hour today or see if it would be possible to fit it in at some other time. I am not opposed to this happening.
Does that mean the guillotine will be lifted?
Is the motion that the debate, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. being pursued?
Subject to agreement between the Whips in accordance with the spirit of what the Taoiseach said.
I am sorry, but I have a motion before the House that I must deal with. Has it been withdrawn? Yes, it has. Is the proposal for dealing with oral questions today agreed to? Agreed.
With a deficit of over €400 million in the health service, people were very concerned to read that a substantial amount of money had been hidden under the mattress in the Department of Health in the past few months, both for capital expenditure and the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Many of the people who depend on home help hours must be wondering why the number of home help hours was cut when €8 million could have been transferred from the National Treatment Purchase Fund to the home help servcie some months ago. In the context of the Health Information Bill, this all points to a complete absence of transparency in the budgeting and financing of the health service and how they are conducted within the Department. Obviously, large sums of money remained unspent for most of the year. We cut the number of home help hours and disability payments and now people will ask why did that happen if €8 million was available. When will the health information Bill be published?
The Bill will not be published until next year. Tomorrow the Minister for Health and his Ministers of State will publish the health strategy for the next period of years. It will deal with the requirement for transparency and accountability. As the Deputy will be aware from his previous experience in the Department, it is often very difficult to follow the allocated moneys to see where they are being spent. I do not suggest money was misappropriated, but it may have been diverted from where it was intended to be spent initially.
Maidir le reachtaíocht atá forógraithe and the review of paying pensions in banks that receive State support, I understand from answers to parliamentary questions that the review has been ongoing for over one year. Last night's revelations that the golden circle presided over by Fianna Fáil was still alive and well under the Taoiseach's tutelage bring urgency to this issue of the salary and pension arrangements of the CEO of Irish Life and 57 employees who receive in excess of €150,000, which is outrageous.
Where is the Deputy going with this?
When will the review be concluded and presented to the Dáil for debate? When will the Government bring forward the legislation promised?
This process was started by the Department of Finance in June 2011 and the Mercer Group is now reviewing other information. I hope the review will be produced for the Minister for Finance before the end of the year. In fact, I would like to see the review concluded before the budget, but I cannot confirm that will happen. The Government process does not just involve looking at the pay structure for bankers but doing so with a view to taking action.
On promised legislation, the Moriarty and Mahon tribunal reports were presented to the House in the past 18 months and the Government promised legislation to implement their recommendations. Some of the legislation has been produced, for example, that dealing with political donations. However, has further legislation been promised? A commitment was given to the House that the recommendations made in both reports would be implemented and brought to the House for debate. Is further legislation required? If so, when will it be processed and what can we expect to see happen? Again, we see reports in the press that those who were the subject of the reports continue-----
I am sorry, but we have only one minute left. Has legislation been promised on this issue?
No, but the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has a number of proposals in this regard. I will arrange for him to contact the Deputy directly.
On the issue of car clamping which is widespread around the country, have the heads of the Bill on the regulation of vehicle immobilisation been approved yet?
No, the heads of that Bill have not yet come before the Government.
The Taoiseach has confirmed that the expert group, chaired by Mr. Justice Seán Ryan, reported to the Department of Health last night and that that the Minister had not yet read the report. When does the Government expect to publish the report? Does the Taoiseach see a merit in publishing it in order that we can all have an input before the Cabinet takes a position on it?
We have run out of time.
As the Deputy is well aware from his experience, as with any other report, the Minister will read the report, reflect on it and bring it to the Government. It will be published when the Government decides what view it should take on what is contained in it.
Does the Taoiseach see merit in publishing it?
The Deputy need not worry; he will have plenty of time to consider the report which will be published. There will be plenty of time to discuss it and I am sure there will be plenty to discuss.
We want to help the Government.
When can we expect to see the alcohol pricing Bill before the Dáil?
It will be early next year.
I would like to know whether the heads of the offshore gas storage Bill, which will provide a legislative framework for the storage of gas at depleted sites under the seabed, has been discussed by the Cabinet. Has the mediation Bill, which will implement the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission, been discussed by the Cabinet? Is it likely to come before the House shortly? What stage is it at?
The heads of the mediation Bill were approved in February. It will probably be the middle of next year before it is actually published. The heads of the offshore gas storage Bill have not yet come before the Government. It will be next year before it is published.
Almost eight months have passed since we received the report of the taxi review group. The rules that have been introduced across the board in the taxi industry since then are affecting the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people.
Would you please put your question?
I refer, for example, to the rules relating to the national car test, the three-year rule that has to be observed by new people entering the industry, the nine-year rule and the rules relating to signage on cars.
What are you looking for, Deputy?
He is calling for a taxi.
I am asking when we will get a chance to debate this.
Would you ask your Whip?
Can the Taoiseach tell us when the taxi regulation Bill is due? Is there no way of fast-forwarding it?
The Joint Committee on Transport and Communications is dealing with it.
This delay is affecting the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people.
I am aware of that. It will be published in this session. Deputies will have plenty of opportunities to have comprehensive discussions on it.
The Taoiseach said yesterday that legislation providing for the establishment of the new child and family support agency will come before the Dáil in the new year. Is it not necessary for that legislation to be in place before the agency can be established? The Minister has given a commitment that the agency will be established in January. Can the agency be established prior to the commencement of the legislation?
I think I said it will be published this year. I do not think I said it will be published in the new year. I think I said it will be-----
I can go back through the record of the Dáil if the Taoiseach likes.
Perhaps my recall is not as sharp as it should be.
Can the Taoiseach not recall what he said 24 hours ago?
My understanding is that the Bill will be published in this session. Obviously, it will be debated after that.