It is proposed to take No. a16, motion re withdrawal of Civil Registration (Amendment) Bill 2011 [Seanad]; No. 30, statements on pre-European Council meeting of 13 and 14 December 2012; and No. 5, Social Welfare Bill 2012 - Second and Remaining Stages (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn not later than 11.15 p.m.; No. a16 shall be decided without debate; No. 30 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 65 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the resumed Second Stage of No. 5 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 9.45 p.m. tonight. Private Members’ business, which shall be No. 94, motion re confidence in the Government (resumed), shall conclude at 9 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.
Order of Business
There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn not later than 11.15 p.m. agreed to?
It is not agreed.
I call Deputy Martin.
I want to oppose the Order of Business because of our overall unhappiness and dissatisfaction with the way the business of the House has been ordered today and, in particular, the guillotining of the debate on the Social Welfare Bill, which is absolutely unacceptable. Yesterday I thought about 13 minutes would be provided for the discussion on each amendment, which is ridiculously low, and that was to be only for the spokespersons. The time has now been reduced to eight minutes per amendment under the revised schedule. We estimate that eight minutes is all the time that will be allowed on Committee Stage to discuss the respite grant cut about which people all over the country have written, complained and spoken to their Deputies.
It is disgraceful.
This is supposed to be the golden era of Dáil reform when the guillotining of debates on legislation was supposed to be a thing of the past, if we were to believe the Chief Whip. If the Taoiseach organised to get the Whips together, there is a way to address this. The Civil Registration (Amendment) Bill, which is to be taken in the House next week, could be deferred and in that way more time could be allocated to the Social Welfare Bill.
Thank you, Deputy.
We would work with the Taoiseach by agreeing to take out some items on today's agenda with a view to giving more time for the Social Welfare Bill and the property tax Bill on Friday. What is happening this week in the House is an absolute disgrace and flies in the face of any agenda to give the Parliament a greater say on budgetary matters or on legislation. It is absolutely appalling what is going on.
This Bill is extremely controversial. The Government Deputies must have the opportunity to come in here and argue for it and we certainly want to argue against it. We have tabled a series of amendments to it and the Minister has even tabled amendments to it. I acknowledge some extra time has been allocated but we need days to be allocated for this. We are cutting the jobseeker's benefit, increasing PRSI, cutting the respite grant and rushing it through. Where are all the election promises about a new transparency, reforming the system, a new way of doing things and a government which is accountable? It is a case of just push it through. We will be particularly opposing the fourth proposal, which allows the debate on the Bill to collapse and does not give us an opportunity to speak on some of the amendments to it.
I also want to add my appeal to the Taoiseach to remove the guillotine on the debate on the Social Welfare Bill. These issues are too important and touch too many lives to truncate the debate on the Bill in the way he intends to. There is a way out of this that is reasonable and fair which is to defer the debate on the property tax Bill until after Christmas. There is no rush with it as it is not to be introduced until July. Why can the Taoiseach not agree to defer the debate on that Bill and allow more time for the debate on the Social Welfare Bill?
A little extra time, which is inadequate, has been granted for the debate on the Bill but the Technical Group will not have any extra time because of the rotation system. We number a third of the Opposition and we will not be given any extra time in the extra that has been given. That is completely unfair.
Thank you, Deputy.
I appeal to the Taoiseach to lift the guillotine on the debate for those specific reasons but also, more generally, because we need adequate time to debate the Bill and discuss amendments to it.
Thank you, Deputy. I call the Taoiseach to reply.
The details of this week's session were set out by the Whip at the Whips' meeting last week. The Social Welfare Bill has to go to the Seanad next week in order for continued payments to be made on 1 January.
I point out that when people make their case about speaking slots here that there was a good deal of argument about the requirement-----
That is misleading the Dáil.
-----to speak on the publication of the report of the expert group on the A, B and C v. Ireland case.
The Taoiseach has just thrown that into the middle of this discussion.
Last Friday only two Opposition speakers were made available----
I was here.
-----and Monday's sitting had to be cancelled because of a lack of speakers-----
That is not the issue.
-----so I do not accept this argument.
There were not too many of the Taoiseach's colleagues here either.
The Taoiseach should satisfy his backbenchers-----
Tá
- Barry, Tom.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burton, Joan.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lyons, John.
- Mathews, Peter.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McHugh, Joe.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- McNamara, Michael.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Mahony, John.
- Penrose, Willie.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Joan.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Brien, Jonathan.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Is the proposal for dealing with No. a16 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 30 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed to?
It is not agreed. The reply we got to our opposition to proposal No. 1 was not satisfactory. The Taoiseach needs to direct the answers to the questions asked. We have seen the inadequacy and the appalling manner in which the Social Welfare Bill is being rammed through the House to suppress dissent, maintain cohesion within Government ranks and facilitate Government Deputies in order that they can go home at the weekend with the Social Welfare Bill having been put through the House. I have offered the Taoiseach the suggestion that our Whip, along with the other Whips, would be willing to meet and, if necessary, put aside some items for today and tomorrow to give more time to the Social Welfare Bill. It is absolutely farcical by any yardstick to provide eight minutes per amendment.
Even by Deputy Martin's standards.
There are only eight minutes for each amendment in the Social Welfare Bill and that is only for the spokespersons.
Hold on.
That does not allow any Deputy aside from the spokespersons to speak.
How many Bills did Deputy Martin guillotine in his time?
What I am anxious to do-----
Would you please allow the Deputy to make his point with a short statement? Thank you.
I am anxious to allow time to speak for many Deputies in the House, particularly Labour Party and Fine Gael Deputies who have voiced significant opposition to child benefit cuts and the respite care grant cuts.
They are wrestling with their conscience.
Not only will they not have an opportunity to vote against it, they will not even have an opportunity to voice their concerns or reservations about elements of the Social Welfare Bill.
How can he keep a straight face when saying that?
They have agreed to go along with it through voting. They are hoping there will be silent acquiescence and that those in government will then be out the gap. However, they will not be out the gap because the people concerned are watching them. This gives a bad message to the public to the effect that there is no such thing as Dáil reform.
That is pathetic.
There is no such thing as meaningful debate on fundamental Bills, including the Social Welfare Bill and the property tax Bill, which is due on Friday.
They are silencing Deputy McNamara and Deputy Colm Keaveney.
Fianna Fáil destroyed the economy.
Minister, please.
Does Deputy Kelleher want to come down to discuss it?
Minister, you will be taking an early bath if you are not careful - and you too, Deputy Dooley. The two of you are shouting at each other while I am calling on Deputy Adams. Will you settle down, please? Settle down. Thank you. Deputy Adams without interruption.
We are trying to defend the people's right to hear the views of elected representatives.
You will be getting your holidays next week, so cool down.
In every part of the State citizens are discussing this legislation at length, except in this institution, which is responsible for bringing in the legislation. The Taoiseach offered several reasons for rushing it through. He said that we had to get our business done because this had to go to the Seanad. It is up to this Chamber to order our own business. The Taoiseach does not even want the Seanad to be there. It is up to this Chamber to order our own business and for the Seanad to fit into our timetable.
The Taoiseach said there were no takers for the debate time provided for the X case and the A, B and C v. Ireland case. We gave formal notice that none of our Teachtaí Dála wanted to talk on that issue and that we had talked on that issue but we wanted to see the legislation. We gave notice and we asked for a debate on the Social Welfare Bill and particularly on the budget.
Finally, the Taoiseach said this had to be passed to allow social welfare payments to continue. That is not true. There is legislation to allow social welfare payments to continue. I call on the Taoiseach to withdraw that remark. We need to have a debate that reflects the seriousness of what the Government is doing, which is in direct opposition to what it was mandated to do. Those who want to vote for this should be able to stand up and argue why they want to take money off carers and reduce child benefit, why they want to tax maternity benefit, why they want to take money from children through cuts to the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance and why the Government wants to put a tax on the family home as opposed to on the wealthy.
I put it to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice and Equality that Fianna Fáil's miraculous conversion on the road to righteousness and political transparency is not the issue.
Can Deputies stay quiet for one minute?
Those double standards are not the issue. The Government promised no less than a democratic revolution in how we do business in the House.
He is breaking promises made.
The Taoiseach is not only betraying promises he made to the families of those with disabilities and promises made by the Labour Party on child benefit; he is now betraying the promise to have a new kind of politics. Will the Taoiseach please allow a debate on the Social Welfare Bill? It will seriously affect the lives of hundreds of thousands of families in the State. He should allow us to debate whether there might be some alternatives that could lift this terrible burden off those families. Will the Taoiseach please allow that debate and discuss it with the Whips or whatever needs to be done? There are ways to find more time for this discussion. The Taoiseach should have the courage and show a commitment to his own pre-election promises to allow for that debate to take place.
The have been significant changes in the way politics are conducted in here and there will be more changes to come.
A Deputy
What are they?
We have now spent two hours at this; we have been here since 10.30 a.m. These matters were raised on Leaders' Questions. We have a good deal of business to conduct.
That is nonsense. Deputies everywhere want to speak on this issue.
The Whips gave notice last week of the arrangements for this week. It is time now to get on with it and move it through.
Those Deputies should speak up now. They had a good deal to say during the weekend.
I am now putting the question.
The Government is laying down the law of what is on the agenda. There is no discussion.
Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed to?
At least I was willing to stand up and defend it, unlike others who are running away.
Please, Deputy.
The sheep are back in the pens.
Tá
- Bannon, James.
- Barry, Tom.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burton, Joan.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lyons, John.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McHugh, Joe.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- McNamara, Michael.
- Mathews, Peter.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Mahony, John.
- Penrose, Willie.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Brien, Jonathan.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
On the Order of Business-----
There is no Order of Business now.
We need to-----
Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?
On a point of order, the Standing Order which eliminates the opportunity to have an Order of Business because of the calling of votes is reprehensible. It was slipped in by way of Dáil reform measures and needs to be reviewed and changed, as it is anti-democratic and does not give Members of the House a fair opportunity on a Wednesday morning to raise issues of importance. It is bringing the House into disrepute. Its only purpose is to serve the Government parties and prevent issues from being aired and articulated.