Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Dec 2012

Vol. 787 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Inter-Country Adoptions

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I am pleased to have the opportunity before the end of the term to raise the issue and I thank the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs for her attendance. I am concerned about both the cost and the delay involved in the assessment for those involved in inter-country adoption. I recognise the need to have the most rigorous of procedures in place, particularly with regard to vetting, home studies, HSE approval and approval of the Adoption Authority of Ireland, as well as suitability of applicants and those wishing to provide home and shelter for underprivileged children on a long-term permanent basis. Notwithstanding this, there are a number of issues that must be addressed, and I refer particularly to the case of inter-country adoption with Bulgaria.

Prospective parents who have completed the legal documentation and home study and signed up for an inter-country adoption find themselves in a somewhat precarious position consequent to the completion of the Hague Convention. They include couples who signed an agreement clearly setting out a payment and cost schedule which has since changed because the State has delegated certain functions to private companies. I am anxious that the State satisfy itself as to the financial affairs of the private agencies or companies in question. What is the position regarding the guarantee of funds and bonding, having regard to the fact that money for services is required to be paid in full and up front, which is a somewhat unusual practice in respect of the provision of services in both the private and public sectors?

I am also concerned about duplication in respect of the assessments carried out prior to the ratification of the Hague Convention. I understand that €3,700 is required for 11 hours of social work that is done prior to referral. This is a sizeable sum and I am anxious to be assured that it is considered in order by the authorities. I also require assurances that private agencies do not have the power to refuse a referral and that such power is vested in the Adoption Authority of Ireland.

I am concerned at the period for which a declaration remains valid. As the Minister will be aware by dint of correspondence earlier in the year, I am most concerned about the fee schedule involved for professional and translation fees, overheads and direct costs. I understand from the Adoption Authority of Ireland that its accountants have been examining these schedules for some time. I raise this matter because replies to correspondence I have submitted since the early summer have been unsatisfactory.

I am pleased the Minister is present and anxious that the issue be addressed. Full accountability and transparency are required and the costs associated with inter-country adoptions must remain reasonable.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

I thank Deputy Charles Flanagan for raising this issue and appreciate the reasons he has done so. I assure the Deputy I am addressing this issue.

The Hague Convention and Adoption Act 2010 are designed to provide a framework to ensure all adoptions are effected in the best interests of the child and to the highest possible standard. The interests of the child must be paramount throughout the adoption process. This is best achieved through the full implementation of the highest national and international standards governing adoption practice. The Hague Convention provides a set of minimum standards which are designed to ensure good practice based on the principles of subsidiarity and consent and a requirement that no money should change hands. Inter-country adoption is not without risk. It is for this reason that the principles, as set out in the Hague Convention, were developed.

Currently, the costs related to inter-country adoption have mainly been charged by agencies, both state and private, in the sending country. The Adoption Act 2010 envisages a model which incorporates the use of accredited agencies in both the sending and receiving country. In some instances, however, this may be the same agency in both countries. The Adoption Authority of Ireland, AAI, has accredited three agencies for the purposes of inter-country adoption. These agencies intend operating in a range of countries.

With the signing of the Hague Convention, the position as regards inter-country adoption changed dramatically and extremely difficult transition issues have arisen, particularly for prospective adoptive parents in this country. It is written into our legislation that we cannot have inter-country adoption with countries that have not signed the Hague Convention, except where we have a bilateral or an administrative agreement with the country in question. Serious difficulties, including constitutional issues, arise in respect of many of the countries with which we are seeking to develop bilateral agreements and administrative arrangements. I am addressing these and other issues arising from the sudden transition caused by the signing of the Hague Convention. I am advised that Ireland is one of only a few countries which wrote the convention into their adoption legislation. This decision has made for considerable difficulties.

As I stated recently in response to parliamentary questions on issues related to the level of fees, I am aware that a number of prospective adoptive parents have recently been asked to pay substantial fees to an accredited body within a short timeframe. I met the individuals in question some weeks ago and discussed with them the issues the Deputy raises. I have asked the Adoption Authority of Ireland to address with the relevant adoption agency the issue of requiring fees to be paid up front. It should be possible to pay fees over a longer period. The authority, with the assistance of its auditors, is examining a number of issues related to accredited bodies, including an examination of levels of fees being charged by Irish agencies vis-à-vis international norms. The auditors will also report to the Adoption Authority of Ireland on the proposed payment schedules by accredited bodies.

I am aware that a number of couples have been caught, so to speak, in the transition phase as they paid money previously, for example, in Bulgaria, and are now being asked to pay here. I have asked the Adoption Authority of Ireland specifically to examine the position of these couples to ascertain whether arrangements can be made to facilitate them. They entered the adoption process in the expectation of incurring a certain level of costs. They did not anticipate that costs would reach the level required of them, which is creating a significant difficulty. I will examine this matter.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I am pleased with the Minister's statement that auditors will examine the fees schedule. Has the State satisfied itself as to the financial standing of the agencies or bodies involved in the inter-country adoption process? Are prospective adoptive parents who have been in the system since before the Hague Convention was signed legally obliged to deal with the designated authority, notwithstanding that the adoption process in their cases has long since commenced?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Yes, such adoptive parents are expected to deal with the agency. We can, however, examine the terms and conditions, as it were, under which they are entering the arrangement to ascertain whether we can facilitate them to a greater degree than has been the case thus far. Given the slow pace of inter-country adoption, I am highly conscious of the issue of sustainability of accredited bodies. I have asked the Adoption Authority of Ireland to maintain close contacts with the agencies in question to monitor the current position and to examine the sustainability issue in the coming months and years. It is important that such bodies are in place but their financing is difficult given the delays in inter-country adoptions. There is a complex relationship between the number of adopters, the fees applied and the sustainability of the agencies. As I noted, however, the issue the Deputy raises is on my agenda. I have had meetings on the matter recently and I have asked the Adoption Authority of Ireland to examine it most seriously and revert to me with a full report.

Garda Investigations

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this topical and important story, which was broken this morning by Barry Duggan and Tom Brady of the Irish Independent. I regret that we are discussing again another unseemly incident connected to gangland criminality, this time in Limerick. I congratulate gardaí in Limerick on foiling a planned murder attempt on an Irish citizen from the city who happens to be pursuing a career in the British defence forces. This incident comes against the backdrop of some very good police work in Limerick in recent years which has resulted in gun crime in the area declining from one third of all gun crime in the country to a minor statistic in the overall scheme.

We can also point to other positives. For example, there has been only one murder in Limerick this year. This is against a backdrop of years of multiple gangland murders. It is important that we commend the Garda in this respect.

It goes without saying that what we read about in this morning's Irish Independent could have had devastating consequences had it succeeded. Those consequences would not only have been for the individual or his family. We must bear in mind that he needed to leave this country and chose to pursue a career with the British defence forces. That this action was planned for his return at Christmas is a chilling thought.

As I stated in respect of other issues I have raised with the Minister, we must consider the extreme reputational damage that such an event would have visited upon the Limerick and mid-west areas as well as the country. It would have affected business, foreign direct investment and tourism. The people involved have no political ideology whatsoever. They are criminals, plain and simple, and cannot look beyond their next criminal endeavour. It has been well noted on the public record that they are not republicans. Among other forms of crime, they are involved in pimping, illegal tobacco, fuel laundering, digital piracy and counterfeit goods and medicines. This activity costs the Exchequer almost €860 million and is now threatening lives.

Where is it all going? Many times, the Minister and I have debated in the House the issues of the recruitment embargo and the ability drain due to retirements from the Garda. The Garda Commissioner has informed the justice committee that up to 25 organised crime gangs are operating in this jurisdiction. Have we a handle on this and will the Minister assure the House that we are on top of the issue?

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. He was doing very well until the last three sentences, which were really a contradiction of everything that preceded them. The reality is that the Garda has had an extraordinarily successful year in counteracting organised crime and in dealing with criminal subversion. As the Deputy rightly stated, even one murder is one murder too many, but there has been only one murder this year in Limerick, an area in which there were very substantial difficulties and a large number of homicides in preceding years. The success of the Garda is illustrated by the fact that there are more than 60 members of Limerick gangs currently held by our Prison Service.

In the context of the issue the Deputy raises, the House will of course understand the sensitivity that is in the very nature of operations carried out by the Garda Síochána in the course of countering the activities of paramilitary gangs and that, as a consequence and particularly when such Garda actions are ongoing, Members of the House and I should exercise the utmost caution in respect of what we say in regard to them.

The House will appreciate that the Garda, in counteracting the threat posed by paramilitary groups, succeeds time and time again in preventing them from carrying out planned acts. Of their nature, the detail of a lot of these successes cannot be appropriately put in the public domain. A great many of them never appear in the public domain. However, what I can say is that the Garda Commissioner has advised me that there is an ongoing Garda operation in Limerick aimed at the activities of a certain group and that it would not be helpful for me to make any public comment on it and, in particular, on a specific case.

I thank the Deputy for his full support for the efforts of the Garda Síochána in counteracting the threat that these groups pose and he will appreciate that it would not be helpful to those efforts to go into the detail of Garda operational matters across the floor of this House. Indeed, it would be gracious of the Deputy to acknowledge, as he did at the start of his speech, the extraordinary success of the Garda in these areas and to acknowledge and accept that it has the operational capacity and capability to address these issues with the utmost efficiency.

The Garda remains very active in its efforts to counteract these paramilitary gangs. It continues to monitor them closely and to bear down on all of their criminal activities. A number of recent arrests, charges and convictions in respect of subversive activity are testament to the work of the Garda in combating the activities of these terrorist gangs, and the force is to be congratulated for its continued efforts in this regard.

I have made the point in this House previously - it bears repeating - that to refer to these gangs as some people do as "dissident republicans" affords them an historical respectability that they do not and cannot merit. The fact is these groups are no more than groups of criminals who masquerade as republicans to seek to legitimise their inherent criminality. These are simply criminal terrorists and I do not believe the words "dissident" or "republican" should be associated with them. These gangs are inextricably involved in organised crime, as Deputy Niall Collins said - drug smuggling, fuel laundering, extortion and armed robbery - and there is nothing "republican" whatsoever about organised crime.

I would say also that we all should exercise a degree of caution in discussing these gangs of criminals. They crave publicity and they court notoriety in order to present the appearance of being more important and worthy than in fact they are. Although we cannot ignore that these criminal terrorists present a real and manifest threat, we should always remember that they are in a very tiny minority on this island. They represent nobody but themselves and their own selfish ends; they offer nothing but a return to the dark days of the past.

Countering the threat from terrorists has been always a priority for the Garda Síochána. Nothing has changed in that regard. It should not be suggested that anything has changed, nor should it be in any way suggested that the Garda lacks the capacity to continue with the very important work it is doing in countering the threat that these groups pose. Despite the positive developments of recent years in the North, the Garda has never let up in its efforts to counteract these groups and will continue to target them. I assure the House that this is the case.

The threat faced on this island from these criminal terrorists is a shared threat and I assure the House that the Garda continues to co-operate seamlessly with the PSNI in actively pursuing them. That co-operation has been instrumental in preventing attacks, in combating criminality and, in particular, in saving lives, and I assure the Deputy and the House that the Government is committed to maintaining that high level of co-operation between the Garda and the PSNI and to providing to the Garda the supports it needs to continue with the extraordinary work in which it is engaged and to ensure that these groups are targeted and, where evidence is available, individuals are brought before the courts and properly prosecuted.

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Minister. He and I differ as regards the Government's policy on Garda recruitment. We have had many a disagreement in the House on this matter, but this event demonstrates the need for the Minister to give the public some direction as to when the Government will recommence the recruitment and training of new members of the Garda Síochána. We must bear in mind the fact that it takes two years to train new members and that up to 1,200 members could retire during the next 12 months. The force's numbers are dwindling.

It is also worth noting that Limerick has the highest ratio of gardaí to population. That decision has been borne out by the successes. If one could increase the ratio across the rest of the country, including Dublin, the same kind of results would be yielded.

The Minister stated that the community needed to support the Garda. I could not agree more. Nine individuals were arrested in Limerick at the time of the Alan Ryan funeral. These arrests apparently led to the information that foiled the attempt in question. Sinn Féin's spokesperson in Limerick stated at the time it seemed to be an overreaction and that it was disgraceful if people were being arrested for attending a funeral. It is disgraceful that Sinn Féin is sitting in this Parliament and sitting in government in the North at a time when some of its MLAs are protesting outside the PSNI headquarters because a member of that party, Mr. Padraic Wilson, had been brought in for interrogation. It is conducting a two-faced strategy.

We must have some political honesty on the question of why certain people within the Sinn Féin leadership and the Sinn Féin movement, in Limerick and throughout the country, are affording a degree of political respectability to these criminals.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Niall Collins

That is exactly what is going on. I have been accused of political opportunism on this issue.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I am calling the Minister to reply.

Deputy Niall Collins

However, when I read into the record what people have said publicly on radio stations and to other media, I am merely stating the facts.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I remind the Deputy that he is cutting into other speakers' time. I ask him to resume his seat and allow the Minister to respond.

Deputy Niall Collins

We must have an honest political debate about the role of all political parties in supporting the Garda Síochána.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

Deputy, please.

Deputy Niall Collins

The actions of the Garda in Limerick were in no way an overreaction. In fact, they ultimately prevented an attempt on a man's life in the city, for which the gardaí involved deserve to be commended.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy must understand that I will not comment on what action the Garda did or did not take with regard to the possibility that it did or did not foil a particular attempt on the life of any individual. I will not comment on any arrests that took place because it is not appropriate to do so.

It is unfortunate that the Deputy cannot confine himself to expressing support for the Garda but instead feels the need to engage in a false battle with me for public relations purposes. I remind him yet again that it was his party which signed a document with the troika requiring a substantial reduction in public spending, one of the measures in this regard being to reduce the membership of the Garda by the end of 2013 to 13,000.

Deputy Niall Collins

The numbers are dropping below that.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

Deputy Collins had his chance to speak and should allow the Minister to reply.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I remind the Deputy that the current numbers within the Garda Síochána are 13,450. On average, some 300 to 350 gardaí retire every year. It is always the case that the number of gardaí in a given year who have completed 30 years of service and for whom the option is available to retire is larger than the number who actually retire in that year. The Deputy is hawking around the fact that 1,200 members of the force are eligible to retire next year without any acknowledgement that while there was probably a similar number eligible to retire in preceding years, the number who did in fact retire was nowhere near that number. A considerable portion of the 1,200 gardaí eligible for retirement next year enjoy their work and want to remain in the force. I have no doubt they will still be in the Garda Síochána in 2014, never mind 2013. The Deputy should not seek to mislead people in this regard.

An issue on which he and I are agreed is that the Garda Síochána is doing an extraordinary job in targeting people engaged in subversion. Tragically, there is still a number of groups on this island intent on murder and mayhem. Some of them are masquerading as political groupings while engaged in substantial criminality. I assure the Deputy that the Garda will continue to target such groups and, where appropriate, to arrest individuals. Moreover, where there is evidence, individuals will be taken before the courts and prosecutions will ensue as appropriate. There should be no doubt that these matters will be dealt with properly before the courts.

Forestry Sector

Deputy Michael McNamara

Various organisations have written to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to express their concern that the proposed sale of the Coillte Teoranta forest crop will impact negatively on public access to and recreational usage of State forests. These organisations include Mountaineering Ireland, BirdWatch Ireland, An Óige, An Taisce, the Irish Wildlife Trust, and CELT, an environmental education organisation based in Scariff in east Clare which the Minister of State, Deputy Shane McEntee, visited earlier this year. These concerned bodies have pointed out that the Coillte estate covers more than 7% of Ireland's landmass and includes 11 forest parks and more than 150 recreation sites. It is estimated that 18 million individual visits are made to the Coillte estate each year, making it one of the most significant recreational and environmental resources in the State. The forests are used by orienteerers, hill walkers, runners and bird watchers as well as local people and family groups. The public can access miles of walking, hiking and long-distance trails as well as the new cycle trails that are being developed by Coillte. This is a particularly important resource at a time when we are promoting good health, fighting obesity and striving to keep people out of hospital. Indeed, at a time when people have less disposable income to holiday abroad, it is even more important to protect our tourism resources.

My understanding is that the Government, at the behest of the troika and as part of the agreed programme for Government, has undertaken to sell the Coillte forest crop but not the land on which the trees grow. It is important to bear in mind that much of the Coillte crop was sown to be harvested as a commercial venture. However, ownership in itself will not protect the recreational use of forests. It is the management of the estate that will determine how public access will be maintained and amenities developed in the public interest. The use of State forests by the people of Ireland has been made possible by an open access policy by Coillte. It is very important that the recreational facility the crop provides is ring-fenced into the future if the crop is sold.

Deputy Clare Daly

We are discussing this issue against the backdrop of Coillte's decision to sell 1,000 acres of public forestry with the approval of the Minister, which is in addition to the 40,000 acres of public forest lands that have already been transferred into private ownership by Coillte. It is time for a rigorous public inquiry into the activities of this organisation. In the past three years it has amassed profits of more than €400 million, paid virtually no dividends to the State and paid its own chief executive officer a salary of just short of €500,000 despite the cap on semi-State salaries. Furthermore, more than €1 million of the moneys accruing to the body from the privatisation of public lands was used to plug a pension fund deficit in the organisation.

What is the Government doing to protect this vital amenity and asset belonging to the people of this country? A geological survey has been commissioned to analyse the mineral wealth that exists under these lands. Will that survey be published and who will have access to that wealth in the event of the lands or crop being sold off? What will the Government do to protect the jobs in that industry and, crucially, to develop other jobs in the sector? We compare very poorly with other European countries in this regard, many of which use forestry as a resource for job creation. In this country, on the other hand, Coillte has apparently been given carte blanche to sell these assets off for a quick buck in contravention of the best interests of the State and its taxpayers.

Deputy Martin Ferris

During the general election campaign, spokespeople from both Fine Gael and the Labour Party vehemently denied there would be any sale of Coillte forestry under their watch. That, however, is exactly what is happening. We are all aware of the latest statement regarding the privatisation by stealth of lands in Donegal. Since 2009, Coillte has sold off publicly owned lands worth €108 million without any public accountability or scrutiny and without any dividends being returned to the State. I have tabled countless parliamentary questions over the years on this issue, the response in each case being to point out that Coillte is a private company. Nothing could be further from the truth. Coillte is owned by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Finance, both of which are shareholders, but we cannot get any answers regarding the company's activities.

Only Coillte lands that are viable for forestry will interest prospective foreign investors. We were told at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine that a sizeable portion of lands under Coillte control are not viable. What will happen to these non-viable, unsaleable lands when the profitable ones have been sold off? Regarding mineral rights, I was told that Coillte has compiled a detailed account of the mineral deposits that may exist on the lands under its control. What happens to those rights when land is sold to private interests? One of those interested international businesses is chaired by a former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern. What happens in the case of a 100 year lease, for example?

Will the mineral rights be protected?

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Shane McEntee)

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. As Deputy Ferris said, he might not get many more answers from me on this, but I will provide an update on the matter.

Further to the Government decision that a concession for the harvesting rights to Coillte's forests be considered for sale, Coillte's board and management have been actively engaged in recent months with NewERA, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and my Department to examine the financial and other implications of developing the potential of Coillte's forest assets. As the Minister advised last week, it is the sale of the harvesting rights to commercial Coillte forests that is being investigated. Consultants have been engaged to do specific work around valuations and managing the way in which the sales process may proceed, with the aim of maximising the value to the State, if value is to be found, as well as taking account of issues that have been identified during the overall process. Some of the issues so identified include the possible impact to the timber industry, public access to recreational land, environmental and social impacts and consequential implications for the company and levels of employment. These issues and the measures, if necessary, to address them require detailed consideration.

A number of bodies have highlighted their concern that the current proposal to sell the forest assets owned by Coillte presents a threat to the use of these forests by the people of Ireland and by visitors to the country. The Government is highly conscious that Coillte, as part of its management of some 442,000 hectares of the national forest estate, plays a significant role in the provision of forest recreational activities. Coillte's forests provide a range of recreational opportunities for the general public, continuing a long tradition of open access to State owned forests. It was therefore determined that the process would not include the sale of land. The future management of the estate, the maintenance of the existing amenities and environmental issues are all being considered in the current analysis.

The Government intends to protect the State assets, including associated public goods, which encompasses public access. It should be noted that most of the forests to which there is public access are not commercial crops. I reiterate that the decision relates to standing commercial timber. The outcome of the overall analysis will be considered by the Government upon its conclusion, which is expected early in the new year. This is a very complex process but I assure Deputies that the Government will act with caution.

Finally, the Deputies were also inquiring about the recent proposed sale, by public tender, of forestry land in County Donegal. Coillte Teoranta was established as a private commercial company under the Forestry Act 1988 and day-to-day operational matters, such as the sale and acquisition of land which take place regularly, are the responsibility of the company. This transaction is an operational matter at the discretion of the company and is separate from the Government decision that a concession for the harvesting rights to Coillte's forests be put forward for sale. I trust this clarifies the matter for the Deputies.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister of State for acknowledging the importance of public access. I can give two examples of its importance from my constituency of Clare. The Violet Hill forest, which is located near Limerick, is a very popular amenity. Most notably, Cratloe Wood attracts between 60,000 and 80,000 visitors every year. The East Clare Way follows a 172 km circular route through some of east Clare's most spectacular and varied scenery across Slieve Aughty and Slieve Barna and passes through parts of the Coillte estate. At a national level, we must acknowledge that Avondale House in County Wicklow, the home of Charles Stewart Parnell, is in a forest park that is maintained to a high standard by Coillte.

However, there is a reasonable assumption among people that the sale of the forest tree crop will produce a more aggressive commercial environment. Concerned groups fear that the open access policy will be threatened and that recreational amenities will no longer be maintained as they should be. State forests, even those that comprise commercial plantations which were planted to be harvested in a commercial manner, are on publicly owned land and should be managed and maintained for the benefit of the Irish people, even after the crop is sold.

Deputy Clare Daly

There is a problem with the Minister's reply. He says the sale and acquisition of land takes place on a regular basis and is the responsibility of the company. The Irish people believe these forests are our land and our crop, to be managed on our behalf. Coillte is making decisions to sell our land behind closed doors. It is clearly necessary, even more so in view of the Minister's reply, to have a rigorous public inquiry into the actions of this organisation. It is a commercial semi-State company, not a private commercial one. It pays over the odds to its chief executive officer and sells off land belonging to the people. It is not accountable anywhere for that activity. There is outrage in Donegal at the proposal to sell another 1,000 acres. That the Minister would say it has nothing to do with the Government and that it is the company's decision is not acceptable. There must be scrutiny of where our money is going and why these lands have ended up in the ownership of the Irish Forestry Unit Trust, an amalgam with AIB and Bank of Ireland and in which Coillte is also involved. There are many unanswered questions about what is a fundamental State asset. Switzerland, which is half the size of Ireland, employs ten times as many people in its forestry as Ireland employs.

Deputy Martin Ferris

It is a retrograde step to sell Coillte lands or forestry to private investors. Inevitably, those investors will opt for the more lucrative side of Coillte's operations. The Minister is effectively giving away the goose that lays the golden egg. It is a mistake and the Government should reconsider it. The Government should exploit the resources, be they commercial timber or otherwise, for the benefit of the Irish people. I still cannot get an answer from anybody about what will happen the mineral rights. There are mineral rights, as we were told by the Coillte representatives when they appeared before a committee recently. If somebody takes a lease on the land and holds it for a period of years, what happens after they harvest the crop? Does it revert straight away or does it remain in the ownership of the privateers until the end of the lease?

Deputy Shane McEntee

I do not know the answer to that until the report is produced and there is a full analysis. I agree with the Deputy about mineral rights. Everybody is worried about what will happen. In response to Deputy Daly, since 2003 Coillte has sold 4,700 hectares. I am aware it is a big issue in Donegal. Perhaps a little more clarity from Coillte is required. However, that is not related to the sale of our forest plantations. Every year Coillte makes its decisions; we cannot hold it by the hand. Perhaps clarity should be forthcoming on a more regular basis. It would be helpful to everybody.

I have taken account of what has been said. I will revert to Deputy Ferris. On the last occasion it took a long time to revert to him, but I will take up the questions with the Minister, Deputy Coveney. I am aware that John Jackson in Donegal is very concerned about the sale of 1,000 hectares. The people of Donegal require more clarity about the matter. Perhaps a letter should be sent to Coillte. It is not obliged to give us the information but nowadays it is crucial that people be as up-front and open as possible. I have no doubt a properly worded letter to Coillte will get those answers.

School Curriculum

Deputy Seán Kyne

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for facilitating this topical issue debate and welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Ciarán Cannon.

As the Minister is aware, recent surveys have found that Irish pupils are doing well generally but are finding certain subjects, such as mathematics and science, more challenging. It is clear we are seeing the early positive results of the national strategy to improve literacy and numeracy among children and young people. We know from numerous international studies that a solid foundation in numeracy and literacy is essential not only for further educational attainment but also for daily life. It is also essential that we focus on the skills required to meet the specific opportunities in the labour market.

With the recent concern about skill levels, mathematics and science, the Minister, Deputy Quinn's, attention has turned to the time allocated to various school subjects, notably Irish and religion. I will focus on the issue of Irish. Is í an Ghaeilge ár dteanga dhúchais agus léiríonn an daonáireamh go bhfuil sé ar chumas 1.7 milliún saoránach an teanga a labhairt. I mo chontae féin, Gaillimh, tá 21% sa chontae agus níos mó sa chathair ábalta an teanga a labhairt. Laistigh dár gcóras oideachais bíonn beagáinín faoi bhun 450,000 daoine óga ag labhairt Gaeilge gach lá.

Sin ráite, taobh amuigh den chóras oideachais bíonn beagnach 80,000 saoránach ag labhairt ár gcéad teanga gach lá. Tá sé soiléir ó seo, cé chomh tábhachtach agus atá an córas oideachais don Ghaeilge. Sin an fáth go bhfuil mé chomh imníoch maidir leis an ráiteas gur cóir an t-am atá leagtha amach don teanga a laghdú. Is gá dúinn a chinntiú go mbeidh dóthain ama á roinnt ar réimse leathan ábhar, ach bheadh sé gearr-radharcach breathnú ar laghdú ama don Ghaeilge mar réiteach chun an caighdeán a fheabhsú i réimse eile.

It would be shortsighted to view the curtailment of Irish as a solution to improving standards in areas highlighted by the Minister. We must have a serious national debate about the place of Irish in our society. In this debate, all shades of opinion must recognise a number of points. Untold damage has been done to the reputation of Irish among older generations on account of how the language was taught. Instead of an inspirational, student centred approach, based on imparting communication skills, Irish was taught in the same manner as English with poetry and prose drummed in at the expense of linguistic skills. In effect, we were directed to run before we could walk. The negativity that such an approach fostered lived on after one's education. Minds began to close and the problem was exacerbated by the grammar gardaí who highlighted mistakes in place of encouragement.

Outside the education system, things have changed, with Raidió na Gaeltachta, TG4, Gaelscoileanna and Foinse transforming the fortunes of Irish by adapting new approaches. The latest developments to revitalise and encourage include a new Irish language smart phone, an iPhone app, children's television programmes, innovative and stimulating television programmes, particularly documentaries, and new products such as BábógBaby.

A similar new approach is needed in our classrooms and we need to focus on imparting communication skills to stimulate an interest in, and encourage the use of, Irish. It is not acceptable that, after 14 years of Irish classes, and less than half on a foreign language, a person may graduate with a much greater command of a foreign language. We must remember citizens who left school with a poor command of Irish, tarnished by negative memories. I acknowledge the opportunities before us, including the reform of the junior certificate, bliain na Gaeilge in 2013 and the different features of the 20 year strategy for the Irish language. Time is against us and we must transform how we teach Irish in our schools and within the education system before we reach the point of no return.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I am taking this issue on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn. It is agreed that reform is needed not only in how Irish is taught but how other languages are taught in schools. As Deputy Kyne points out, we need a greater emphasis on spoken language and oral fluency. Irish is in the vanguard of these reforms.

Reform is being considered in the context of the 20 year strategy for the Irish language, mindful of current resource constraints. The strategy contains commitments that a high standard of all-Irish education will be provided to school students whose parents or guardians so wish; that Gaelscoileanna will continue to be supported at primary level and all-Irish provision at post-primary level will be developed to meet follow-on demand; and that Irish language pre-school education will continue to be supported and third level education through Irish will be further developed. One of the key curriculum initiatives is the national strategy, Literacy and Numeracy for Learning and Life, which the Minister published in July 2011. The strategy acknowledges that learners in Irish schools experience language learning in both English and Irish throughout their school careers. We also have a range of linguistic settings in our schools - English-medium schools, Gaelscoileanna, Gaelcholáistí and Gaeltacht schools.

Early childhood education is also available in both Irish medium and English medium settings. This diversity is part of the richness and strength of the Irish education system. However, it is also important to recognise that diversity brings particular challenges for the teaching and learning of literacy. As part of the strategy, the NCCA is currently developing an integrated language curriculum for primary schools that will include Irish and English and be available by 2014 for infant classes. Over subsequent years, the language curriculum for senior classes will also be revised.

At post-primary level, the framework for the junior cycle sets out the Minister's position. The framework will be implemented from September 2014. In line with the literacy and numeracy strategy, the Irish language syllabus will be revised for implementation in schools from 2015. Without wishing to pre­empt the work of the NCCA, it is likely that the revised curriculum will have a much greater emphasis on oral Irish. One of the 24 statements of learning that forms part of the framework for the junior cycle is that the student should reach a level of proficiency in a second language, which is Irish for most students, in reading, writing, speaking and listening. In addition, the junior cycle framework allows for the development of short courses. I encourage schools to develop short courses in Irish, which can help to develop additional fluency and support literacy.

At senior cycle, there has also been a focus on the development of students' oral Irish competency as seen in the increased allocation of marks, up to 40%, in the oral examination in the leaving certificate. The approach to the teaching of Irish is being considered across the curriculum with a view to achieving fluency for our students.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome some of the initiatives enacted and the increase in the percentage for oral Irish in the leaving certificate. The Minister stated that, without wanting to pre-empt the NCCA report, it is likely the revised curriculum will have a greater emphasis on oral Irish. My concern is the comment of the Minister, as reported, about the amount of time we spend teaching Irish. The Minister referred to Irish and religion but I am addressing Irish today. I represent the largest Gaeltacht area and there is concern that this will lead to denigration of the Irish language. Focusing on mathematics and science by reducing the time spent on Irish will not necessarily improve the situation and may have a detrimental effect on Irish. We must be conscious of the 20 year strategy for the Irish language. In year 19 of the strategy, there is no point in saying that things are not going as well in the primary and secondary education system as had been hoped. We must ensure we continue and improve the system of spoken Irish and the way it is taught in our primary schools. Reducing the number of hours, without a clear strategy or a statement of how we will protect the language, is a concern.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Deputy Kyne should not have any concern about the commitment of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to the Irish language and its teaching in our schools. The curriculum reforms being undertaken in respect of the Irish language are extensive. The way Irish is being taught should change and is changing. There will be greater emphasis on spoken and communicative Irish.

Our young people spend 12 or 13 years of their lives studying the Irish language and the vast majority do not leave school with a serious degree of competency or fluency in the spoken language. Our emphasis should be on addressing this and the change being implemented across the system will lead to greater fluency and competency in the spoken language.