Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Dec 2012

Vol. 787 No. 4

Topical Issue Debate

Broadband Services Provision

Deputy Noel Harrington

I thank the office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this topic. It is one of those debates that comes to this House and its committees quite often - the idea of providing adequate broadband to the country. It is parallel in importance to railway, road or other infrastructure in terms of driving economic activity. Broadband, literally, is vital in this day and age, not just for home use but to generate economic activity, be that in an urban or rural area. I know the Department has recognised this through the announcement of various schemes recently, such as the national broadband scheme, the schools 100 megabyte project, the metropolitan area networks and the rural broadband scheme.

The concern I wish to raise is the adequacy of the provision of broadband to certain parts of the country, which is proving very challenging. This country subscribes to the EU challenge to provide a minimum service of 30 megabytes per second to every household in the country by 2020. I am concerned this target is becoming unreachable or very difficult to attain. I can tell of an instance that happened recently in Bantry in south west Cork which shows the impact this service can have. It came about through the endeavours of a local councillor, Mary Hegarty, who met representatives of Amazon and gave them a proposition for jobs they could provide in the area if the technology and infrastructure were in place. They made the commitment and delivered on it, offering 26 jobs with Amazon, servicing technological aspects of that company. Regrettably, however, because we could not provide five megabyte per second service in certain areas, some of those jobs had to go. The impact of 26 jobs in a place like Bantry is a terrific good news story. Happily, the majority of people were able to take up the offer because the necessary five megabyte service was available. I reiterate the great impact this can have in a place like west Cork. It is as significant as some of the recent job announcements in more urban areas.

We need to move on. There are many parts of the country, rural areas in particular, that are not adequately provided for. The figure given, for example, of 97% broadband coverage in the country is fine if one is talking about basic broadband service of one or two megabytes per second but that is not enough for economic activity. In this Chamber in the past 12 months or more we have had some intense debates on the closure of small schools. Such schools do not close because of lack of commitment by the Minister for Education and Skills or lack of finance provided by the Minister for Finance. Small schools close because there is an insufficient number of children. Garda stations and banks close for similar reasons. The banks show a different dynamic in that nine out of ten bank transactions are now done online. However, it is fruitless to point the many people who have a one-megabyte or minimum broadband service towards online access. Many of the policies we are implementing through budget cuts or corrections could be easily supplemented by investment in an adequate broadband service. People like James Whelton, for example, who recently figured in the Forbes Under 30 list, understand this. He has spoken about establishing the CoderDojo classes about which we have heard. Such people realise the potential for every citizen in the State to use digital technology and what this can bring about.

I appeal to the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, and his Department to push forward and apply 30 megabyte per second technology to every household. There is no need to bring fibre optic networks to every house. They can be brought to an area and the technology exists to bounce the connection into every household. I look forward to the Minister's response and acknowledge his commitment in this area. This is an issue that needs to be highlighted.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte)

Deputy Harrington is absolutely right about the potential of broadband for economic dispersal and job creation in a region such as the one he represents, which I visited very recently for an engagement with David Puttnam, who, I am happy to tell the House, has accepted the appointment as digital champion for Ireland. Living in Skibbereen as he has for the past 26 years, he has arranged a facility where, for example, he can conduct lectures, as he does every week with students in Sunderland, Brisbane and Manchester from his video conferencing facility in Skibbereen. Without doubt, Deputy Harrington is right about the significance of this technology.

In terms of the architecture being put in place by the national broadband plan, I reiterate for the House that the timetabled plan targets will put in place 100 megabyte service for 50% of the population by 2015. A further 20% at least will have 40 megabytes or better. It is principally in the third tier, which will have 30 megabytes or better, that State intervention will be necessary because the private sector will not supply the necessary quality bandwidth to the less densely populated areas of the country. The prospectus we will draw up will require the successful bidders to deliver 30 megabytes, or better. I assure Deputy Harrington that will be more than ten times better than what is available in his area at present. There is no country in the western world - known to me, at any rate - where there is not a difference between the high-speed bandwidth available to densely populated urban areas and what is available in very poorly populated regions. Holland may be an exception but that is a tiny area that is densely populated throughout. There are entire tracts of the United States that have no broadband.

The idea is that tiers 1 and 2 are to be implemented by the end of 2015. The intention in respect of tier 3 is to implement service by the end of the lifetime of this Government. The reason for the date being as late as 2016 is that we have no choice but to go through the State aids procedure because we envisage the investment of State money. The procedure is painstakingly slow and I do not know of any short way around it. We must do a detailed mapping exercise and have just begun preparations for implementing this next year. The idea is that by the end of the lifetime of the Government the successful bidders will deliver a 30 megabyte service.

Deputy Harrington unwittingly stated the target date was 2020 but that is the European digital agenda. Ours is more ambitious if we can deliver on it, as I believe we can. There has been some €300 million of Exchequer investment in the past decade. In the past five years alone private investment in the broadband infrastructure across all platforms amounts to €2.5 billion. There is very significant private investment going on and there is fierce competition. Deputy Harrington is absolutely right. There are parts of the country where provision is very basic and that is not good enough. Broadband offers possibilities of doing business in the regions that was unthinkable before. It has tremendous capacity to keep people in their own areas.

We have connected some 297 second level schools with 100 megabyte service, which transforms the educational environment. We are about to announce the next 200 second level schools in the second tranche and by 2014 we will have connected every second level school in Ireland to this service. Progress is being made.

There are in contemplation a few other very innovative initiatives in respect of the area in which the Deputy is interested. I am not in a position to deal with those, but the House will have noticed that the State has received more than €850 million from telecommunications companies recently as result of the spectrum auction, and in turn the four successful companies are engaged in preparation for the roll-out of next generation access. There is considerable progress and I thank the Deputy for raising the issue.

Deputy Noel Harrington

I thank the Minister for his reply and for his commitment to delivering what he regards as vital infrastructure. I join him in welcoming the appointment of Lord David Puttnam as our digital champion. It is a brilliant appointment and I believe his passion and knowledge will bear fruit. I was in his home and I have seen what he can do, which is quite remarkable. While I do not want to pour cold water on it, he can deliver learning and lectures to people across the globe but the problem is in many places he cannot do so five or ten miles out the road. That is the challenge and I know the Minister accepts it. The time might come eventually when we will spend four days in committee in our own homes and spend one day in plenary in Dublin. The technology is not that far away and is something that could be considered. Similarly, university students could study from their own homes for the majority of the time. We have not even contemplated the economic and social advantages that could bring to a student's home life, especially to one from a rural area. We need to consider the economic, social and communications activity this could generate.

The globe has become a fairly small marble in terms of communications, as the Minister has recognised. I am very glad my dates are wrong and that the Minister has corrected me. It is far more advanced than I had thought. I look forward to the delivery of the programmes as they come on stream. I look forward to a greater quality of life for those people who have been challenged by a poor service to date.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I agree with everything the Deputy has said about the potential and the importance of this in terms of priority policy decision making at Government level. A few weeks ago, colleagues from my Department visited a secondary school in what can only properly be termed a socially disadvantaged area of the city. They were amazed to find five young women studying honours mathematics remotely with a teacher in Coláiste Bríde in Clondalkin. Honours mathematics was not available in the school previously. The prospect of specialist teachers being accessed remotely has immense implications and it really changes the classroom, as we know it. It is worth visiting that school to see how it functions.

Mental Health Services Provision

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise the issue and I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to deal with it. I am inquiring about the transfer of 18 residents from Toghermore House to other centres. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, opened part of the centre at Toghermore House in autumn 2011. It is a very fine facility and there has been great praise for the work that has been done there. Much money has been spent on Toghermore House and it would not take much more to address the fire and safety standards that have been highlighted as a problem.

It would be very harsh to move 18 people from Toghermore House coming up to Christmas with no centres as yet identified for those residents. We need a better response from the HSE on this issue. I understand the engineer's report, which has just come in, refers to fire doors that are urgently needed, and I hope they will be installed. Effectively, there is no need to close Toghermore House if we can address the issue of fire safety. We have been advised that the service and training will continue at Toghermore House. It is an example of decisions being made at short notice with very serious implications for the users of health services in County Galway. In the past year, nursing home centres at Woodford and Oughterard, to name but two, were closed without warning. Indeed the facility at Woodford closed over a weekend. I would like the Minister of State to reconsider this question. If improvements need to be carried out, what does the improvement work entail and how much will it cost? I would like to see a more complete statement from the HSE than the one I saw.

I have referred to 18 residents, but there is considerably more activity in the centre. The training places and day places mean that up to 50 or 60 people use the services there. Given the availability of this centre, no rented properties are used in Tuam and these 18 people have rights like everybody else.

I am sure the Minister of State knows the history of Toghermore House. The house was donated to the State by the late former Labour Senator, Bobby Burke, and it is now the headquarters for mental health services in Tuam and Headford. The family of the late Bobby Burke are held in very high regard in the north County Galway area. The facility has proven very cost-effective when compared with the alternative of using rented property. It is also helping to cast away the stigma associated with psychological illnesses by encouraging people to seek treatment and help, just as they would for any other health complaint. The staff have told me having people at Toghermore House has prevented admission to hospital, or where there is admission to hospital it has meant a shorter stay for people in hospital.

The historic Toghermore House is the headquarters for this area and plans are under way to locate other health services there such as speech and language therapy and physiotherapy. The campus might also be used in the future by some local voluntary organisations. Extensive renovation and refurbishment works have been carried out on the main house, while vacant dilapidated warehouses and stores have been transformed into modern clinic rooms, offices and recreational areas. It is a very fine facility and I would not like to see it undermined in any way from the point of view of the residents or the staff. I believe we have a very good centre and I hope the Minister of State can give us some information on the engineer's report. I hope we can assure the people who use the service that the residential centre will continue in operation.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Alex White)

I thank Deputy Kitt for raising this issue for discussion today which I am taking on behalf the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

Tuam mental health services cater for the Tuam and Headford catchment areas with a population of approximately 35,000 and a caseload in excess of 800 individuals. Traditionally the service was provided at St. Brigid's Hospital in east Galway, but gradually over the years, community mental health services in Tuam and Headford have been developed, as the Deputy indicated. Among the services provided by Tuam community mental health services are a day hospital which operates five days per week as a community mental health centre; a day centre which provides a seven-day service for approximately 30 patients; one high-support, three medium-support and five low-support residences, accommodating 40 service users; and Toghermore House, an 18-bed residence providing high support to a mixed service-user group, including elderly, those with a learning disability, those in need of continuing care and respite accommodation.

The HSE makes every effort to ensure the quality and safety of all services delivered to patients and staff by keeping such matters under review. As such, an independent fire and safety review on Toghermore House was undertaken in September last and its final report was submitted to the HSE last week. The report shows that the current facility does not meet the minimum fire safety standards for this type of building, which needs to be addressed immediately.

The HSE has formed a local steering group to assess the challenges outlined in the report with a view to closing the facility as a matter of urgency.

The group consists of a cross-section of senior local mental health services personnel, as well as patient representatives. The HSE will also be liaising with the residents and their families as part of the process. The measures on how best to address the fire and safety issues are being discussed at a meeting of the steering group scheduled to take place today to progress the matter in a controlled and safe manner. The steering group is also considering the relocation of the current residents to the most appropriate clinical settings according to their individual needs while the safety issues are addressed.

Toghermore House remains operational during this process but has ceased any new admissions since last Monday. It is also important to stress, however, that all other mental health services in the Toghermore complex to which Deputy Kitt referred and which include the day hospital, the day centre, the training centre workshop, primary care and child and adolescent mental health services will continue to operate as normal. The Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality and mental health asked that she and the Department be kept informed of developments in respect of Toghermore House arising from the steering group's findings. Obviously, the situation is somewhat fluid but I hope this at least provides some clarification on the issue.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He concluded his reply by saying that the situation is fluid and I certainly hope so. I understand that report is just in. If it is a question of the fire doors, and fire safety was mentioned by the Minister of State, I hope he would agree with me that it make more economic sense to carry out those necessary repairs and deal with fire safety issues rather than move people who are very used to that area out of Toghermore House to a centre that does not exist in the sense that it is true to say that the HSE would not have places available at short notice for the 18 people involved.

The Minister of State mentioned that new admissions ceased since last Monday. Again, it is disappointing when he talks about Toghermore House remaining operational. We pay rent in many cases in the HSE west area but pay no rent in Tuam because we have an excellent centre donated by the late Senator Bobby Burke which has meant so much to the community of Tuam. The staff told me that this centre prevents admission to hospital, leads to shorter hospital stays and, in particular, removes any stigma of mental illness. If this is true, it is well worth looking at and I hope the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality and mental health would take an interest in this. She opened part of that facility a year ago and unveiled a plaque to commemorate the development of a new integrated mental health campus at Toghermore so it would be very disappointing if we now say we cannot continue with the residential centre there. When she visited Toghermore on that day in the autumn of 2011, the Minister of State promoted A Vision for Change, which she has endorsed very strongly, and spoke positively about her commitment to a patient-centred service. I hope the Minister of State gives my views to her and we can hold on to the residential centre for the sake of the 18 people. This is coming up to Christmas and removing these people to another centre will be very harsh. I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me.

Deputy Alex White

The Deputy makes the case very well. There is no doubt that it is extremely upsetting for people, particularly at this time of the year, when they are discommoded when an event like this occurs and there is a requirement for them to be moved out of a facility with which they are familiar. If that could be avoided, I am sure it would be. I am sure the Deputy will agree that the HSE and those involved must balance the risk of upsetting and discommoding people against the important requirement to ensure the safety of people where a risk is identified and needs to be assessed and acted upon if it is found to be real. There is a balancing exercise involved.

I cannot say any more than what I have said by way of reply to the Deputy. I was not aware of the background or historical significance of the house and how it had been donated by the former Labour Senator Bobby Burke. I am quite sure the facility is as fine as described by Deputy Kitt, with services such as primary care, in which I am very interested and of which I am supportive, as indeed is the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality and mental health and the rest of the Government. I will conclude by reiterating that the situation is somewhat fluid. The meeting to which I referred was held today and I am sure the right decision will be made in the circumstances.

Carer's Allowance Eligibility

Deputy Gerald Nash

As the Minister of State is aware, it can cost up to €2,000 per week to provide care to an older person in a residential nursing home in the public sector. It costs the State about €200 per week for a carer, who is, more often than not, an immediate relative, to provide around-the-clock care for a parent, aunt or uncle in his or her home through the provision of the carer's allowance. This State officially denies that basic level of support to emigrants who return home in a parent's time of need to look after the people who took care of them when they were growing up. Many returning emigrants, because they do not satisfy the Department's habitual residency clause, are not officially entitled to receive any recognition or financial support from the State to provide the care they feel duty bound to undertake. The Minister of State is aware that they do not qualify for a carer's payment if they have not been resident in the State in the previous two years. The local community welfare officer also appears to be prevented from providing any support to help a family make ends meet and to recognise the role of the carer under such circumstances.

The habitual residency clause, as the House will be aware, was introduced for very good reasons in May 2004. Nobody wants to see opportunistic exploitation of the social welfare system. This week, I came across the case of a woman who does not meet the habitual residency requirements and who is returning to Drogheda to look after her mother who is awaiting an organ transplant. This demands a review of this system and that we insist on a process that takes into account the reality of life and the need for the social protection system to respond in a humane manner that respects the dignity of the carer and the people for whom care is provided. We should identify a better way. There may be no more than 100 such people and perhaps even fewer who experience this issue in any given year. At a small cost, we could and should provide urgent assistance to families who most need help in a time of crisis and emotional strain. Where specific sets of circumstances apply and where the returning emigrant is in some cases the carer of last resort for an ill or infirm relative, I urge the Department to take a less dogmatic and more sympathetic view of the plight of carers who are emigrants returning to care for an aged, ill or infirm relative.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan)

I thank Deputy Nash for raising this issue which, as he noted, affects a relatively small number of people but is very important. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister for Social Protection who is in the Seanad. The Department of Social Protection is committed to delivering the best possible service to its customers and continuously strives to achieve the highest standard of customer service possible. Carer's allowance is a means-tested income support payment to people providing full-time care to a person who needs that care because of age, physical or learning disability or illness, including mental illness.

At the end of October 2012, 51,550 customers were in receipt of carer's allowance, approximately 23,000 of whom are on half-rate carer's allowance along with another primary social welfare payment.

In 2011, the amount spent on carer's allowance was €507 million. Expenditure on carer's allowance over the past ten years to the end of 2011 has increased by almost 320% and the number of claimants in receipt of carer's allowance increased by almost 250% over the same period. The habitual residence condition applies to all social assistance payments including carer's allowance. The determination of a person's habitual residence is made in accordance with five factors which are set out in legislation. These are the length and continuity of residence in the State or in any other particular country; the length and purpose of any absence from the State; the nature and pattern of the person's employment; the person's main centre of interest; and the future intentions of the person concerned as they appear from all the circumstances.

These five factors have been derived from European Court of Justice case law. EU rules prevent discrimination on nationality grounds with regard to social security, so it is not possible to exempt a particular category of Irish citizens such as returning emigrants from the habitual residence condition either in general or for carer's allowance without extending the same treatment to all EU nationals. However, the guidelines regarding determination of habitual residence address the issue of returning emigrants very specifically. The guidelines state, "A person who had previously been habitually resident in the State and who moved to live and work in another country and then resumes his-her long-term residence in the State may be regarded as being habitually resident immediately on his-her return to the State". I hope this is of help to Deputy Nash.

In determining the main centre of interest in the case of returning emigrants, deciding officers take account of the purpose of return; the applicant's stated current and future intentions; verified arrangements which have been made with regard to returning on a long-term basis such as the transfer of financial accounts and any other assets; the termination of residence-based entitlements in the other country or assistance from Safe Home or a similar programme to enable Irish emigrants to return permanently; the length and continuity of the previous residence in the State; the record of employment or self employment in another State; and whether he or she has maintained links with the previous residence and can be regarded as resuming his or her previous residence rather than starting a new period of residence.

This is generally sufficient to enable the deciding officer to determine whether an applicant's present circumstances in Ireland indicate a temporary visit or habitual residence. Relatively few returning Irish emigrants are refused social welfare payments on grounds of habitual residence. In 2011, 13,888 applications for carer's allowance were processed. Of these, 223, or approximately 1.6%, were refused on the basis of habitual residency, of which 42 were Irish nationals.

It is acknowledged that the time taken to process carer's allowance claims generally at present is unacceptable. The Department of Social Protection has implemented measures to improve the processing time for carer's allowance applications including the allocation of additional temporary resources. Following the completion of a major modernisation project, an in-depth business process improvement project was completed for the carer's allowance scheme. This project focused on optimising output and customer service and the elimination of the current backlogs. The processing of claims has been divided into two streams. One concentrates on dealing with new claim intake and processes these without delay and the other focuses on the backlog, which is ring-fenced with a clear and targeted plan for its elimination. Since the implementation of the new process the Minister is happy to report that substantial inroads have been made to the current backlog and new applications are being processed on receipt.

Deputy Gerald Nash

I thank the Minister of State for her detailed response. Part of the problem is a lack of clarity among the public with regard to how claims may be handled in certain offices of the Department of Social Protection. I have detected a pattern in recent times whereby once the issue of habitual residency is put forward an official may - this is not always the case - suggest there is little point in making an application because it would not be considered. Will the Minister of State clarify this? What I discern from what she stated is that perhaps there is an amount of flexibility or misunderstanding with regard to how the process works.

The Minister of State mentioned that a person who had previously been habitually resident in the State and had moved to live and work in another country and then resumed his or her long-term residency in the State may be regarded as being habitually resident immediately on his or her return to the State. This is probably an acknowledgement that in the case of an application for carer's allowance by an Irish national, an amount of discretion may be applied by the Department of Social Protection in its consideration. It is important, and it is a stated objective of the Government, that we support carers at every level of society. The Minister of State outlined the approximately €500 million expended by the State on carer's allowance and half-rate carer's allowance. This is a very important support.

As the Minister of State outlined, a small number of people are affected. In 2011, 13,888 applications for carers allowance were processed and 1.6% of these were refused on the basis of habitual residency and only 42 were Irish nationals. A good job of work could be done to clarify the situation for returning emigrants who wish to apply for carer's allowance to take care of a mother, father, aunt or uncle. There appears to be an amount of confusion. This discussion has clarified it and I encourage returning emigrants who are here to support family members to go down the route of applying for a carer's allowance, provide all of the necessary evidence and have a discussion with Department of Social Protection staff to ensure the application is processed and progressed properly.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I agree with Deputy Nash that there appears to be quite a bit of flexibility with regard to the various elements the officers take into account and in my original contribution I referred to the fact a person can be regarded as being habitually resident immediately on his or her return. I will certainly convey to the Minister, Deputy Burton, the issues Deputy Nash has raised. If there is a need for clarification for those implementing these guidelines I am sure the Department would be happy to provide this clarification to ensure people who are entitled to it receive carer's allowance.

Homeless Persons Data

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

While some families will struggle and find Christmas difficult it will be business as usual for many and we will see spending in shops and bars and on travel. It is good that we do not lose sight of those who are homeless. There is a story behind every homeless person and nobody makes a career decision to end up homeless. I represent Dublin Central where it is a major issue but where there are also great organisations such as the Simon Communities, Focus Ireland, Depaul Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Salvation Army, the Capuchin day centre and Dublin City Council. They provide vital services such as emergency services and are trying to progress strategies such as The Way Home and Pathway to Home. I acknowledge the great generosity of Irish people. Other initiatives such as Safetynet also exist.

It is difficult to obtain accurate information on homelessness for many reasons. The concept is complex. When compiling figures on homelessness does one include those who are squatting, those on a sofa for a night, those moving from sofa to sofa and those coming out of hospital, rehabilitation services or prison with nowhere to go? We know what we see on the streets five minutes from here and we have information from the housing lists and statistics. The homeless service at Dublin City Council recently found 87 people were sleeping rough in the month of November, which was the same as the previous month. We know of the very sad death of a homeless person in Wicklow recently. There has been an increase in Cork. A very frightening statistic is that from the beginning to the end of the Celtic tiger, the number of homeless people in the country doubled.

Demands on the services are increasing but the services have the same or fewer resources. I wish to speak about those in addiction who are trying to stay clean and sober but end up in the same accommodation as those still using drugs or drinking. I am glad the Minister of State is present because if the property tax is applied to social housing associations and local authorities struggling as they are with accommodation it will set them back further. They are trying to progress this and I must give them credit.

While aspects of homelessness are complex, we know that one simple solution is to provide more housing with support. In that respect, I am glad the Minister of State is here to take this Topical Issue and I hope she will have some insight into it.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I thank Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan for raising this issue. I have just come from Blessington Street, in her own constituency, where the Simon Community was opening a homeless facility for 12 people with support. I agree with her that good work is certainly being done by a number of voluntary housing associations.

It is never acceptable to have people sleeping on the streets. At this time of the year, more than any other, we seem to recognise a problem that endures throughout the year, every year. My Department's role involves providing a national framework of policy, legislation and funding to underpin the role of housing authorities in addressing homelessness at local level. Statutory responsibility in regard to the provision of accommodation and related services for homeless people rests with the housing authorities. The implementation of the homeless strategy at local and regional level is being carried out through the framework of statutory homelessness action plans adopted by housing authorities.

The stubbornly high number of rough sleepers in Dublin, as reported by Dublin City Council recently, reflects the gravity of the challenge facing the Government, the voluntary sector and other agencies in tackling the homelessness problem. I have sought to put in place real solutions for people who find themselves without a home. Investment of almost €50 million has been provided by central and local government in the provision of homeless services in 2012.

Rough sleeping is monitored closely countrywide but particularly in Dublin where the problem is most prevalent. The Dublin region's outreach team works on an ongoing basis to engage with all individuals sleeping rough, with the specific goal of moving people into accommodation through the Dublin City Council central placement service. The problem of rough sleeping is limited outside Dublin, with Cork, Waterford, Limerick, and Galway city councils reporting sufficient bed capacity on a nightly basis and that no one is sleeping rough due to the lack of a bed. The rough sleeper count for Cork, as reported recently in the media, does not appear to be consistent with the figures supplied by the Cork region's outreach team. Those figures report two to three rough sleepers in Cork.

Unfortunately, housing authorities consistently report the existence of a small number of entrenched rough sleepers who are unwilling to avail of accommodation. I take the Deputy's point that sometimes the accommodation may not be appropriate, particularly if there is drug taking involved and they are trying to avoid certain behaviour. This group has been particularly difficult to engage with due to mental health issues and aggressive behaviour. Outreach teams continue to try to provide solutions for this group and to encourage these persons to avail of accommodation. Where they refuse to do so, outreach teams ensure that they have sufficient food and bedding.

Progress has been made in the area of homelessness but unfortunately that is not enough. The recent Dublin figures are a stark reminder of the complexity of the homelessness issue and the difficulties in finding answers to it. It is not tolerable that anyone should sleep on the streets. It is not good enough and we cannot sit idly by.

One of my priorities is to ensure that homeless people have access to secure, stable and appropriate accommodation. Short-term interventions are not a long-term solution to homelessness. We need to continue to focus on long-term solutions to homelessness. I acknowledge, however, that we do need a level of short-term accommodation for urgent situations.

The community and voluntary sector has a critical role to play in dealing with homelessness, especially so in these difficult times. I am especially pleased to see the agencies engaging in housing and resettlement solutions, in line with Government policy on housing-first and housing-led initiatives, rather than managing people in emergency accommodation. Fostering a resettlement culture that promotes independent living is the key to tackling homelessness.

It is important that any initiative dealing with homelessness should be progressed in collaboration with the relevant regional homeless consultative fora. They were specifically established to allow the community and voluntary sector to work in partnership with the State sector in progressing initiatives to overcome homelessness, and to ensure that such initiatives do not disadvantage other persons in need of housing. These fora consist of individuals with particular expertise relevant to the implementation of homeless initiatives.

The annual provision of current funding from the Department should provide for sufficient bed capacity to accommodate all those in need of emergency accommodation nationwide. I acknowledge that, sadly, there are still people on the streets.

Deputy O'Sullivan sought figures and, as she knows, the rough sleepers count takes place regularly. There are also figures on homelessness from the Central Statistics Office that arise from the census, but they do not always tally with some of the data we get from local authorities. There is therefore some work to do in determining exactly who is homeless and who should be counted in the figures. I acknowledge that we need to do some more work on that.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Homeless people say they get to a point where they feel they are almost invisible and are of absolutely no value. As a result, their self esteem and dignity disappear. That is where the services are vital and do such great work.

About a month ago, I visited Brother Kevin in the Capuchin Day Centre in Bow Street, Dublin. He told me that his food bill for the year is €1.9 million. On top of that he also has to pay water and waste charges. He gets €350,000 from Dublin City Council and €100,000 from the HSE, so those figures do not add up. There is an increasing demand for food parcels and other services provided at the centre.

I welcome the Minister of State's answer which admitted that while progress has been made, it is unfortunately not enough. Everybody knows what to do but it is a question of joining up the dots. The people to talk to are those who are providing such services. On a practical basis, we must examine how much the service is taking in and what it has to give out. If the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Department of Social Protection can bring any influence to bear on water and waste charges, it would give them so much more money that they can then spend on services for the homeless.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan and fully agree with her that we need to talk regularly to those who provide such services. I again pay tribute to the Capuchins, the Simon Community, Focus Ireland and all the other voluntary bodies that do tremendous work in this area. We must ensure that we are all working together in partnership to deliver the best possible result for those who need these services. One of the things I most admire about the voluntary sector is that, as well as emergency accommodation and soup runs, they are also supporting people who have moved into either local authority or private rented accommodation. They thus ensure that such people can maintain those homes, which is a crucial element of their work.