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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jan 2013

Vol. 789 No. 3

Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I wish to share time with Deputies Paul Connaughton and Anthony Lawlor.

I am glad to have an opportunity to contribute to the debate. As practitioners of politics, we are most interested in many ways in the dynamics of constituencies, the number of seats and so on. I represent Galway West and there was a great deal of concern that the constituency could change dramatically, especially given Oranmore to the east of Galway has become a large suburb of the city and it has been integrated into the economic corridor between Claregalway and the city. I am glad this area, which was considered to be under threat of transfer to Galway East, has remained as part of the city constituency because it is an important contiguous area, which shares a strong dynamic with the eastern side of the city.

Galway West has been a five-seat constituency for a number of years. It has always returned a diverse representation of political parties, with Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, and Labour Party seats and a Progressive Democrats seat, which was unusual for the west. That diversity will continue as it remains a five-seater. It is a large constituency and I was surprised that part of south Mayo was transferred in. Nobody was expecting that, as it seemed more appropriate to transfer the Headford area in Galway East into the constituency but the Constituency Commission in its wisdom decided otherwise. I am glad I will be taking over from the careful hands of the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, who looked after this part of Mayo well. I know the area well because I have spent a great deal of time in Ballinrobe, Shrule and on the lake near Cong. The people of south Mayo were particularly surprised by the change but I will try to represent them as best I can. I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív that an amendment to the title of the constituency to include Mayo would be appropriate. The Minister must recognise that this is a significant area with a significant population and they deserve to he recognised as being in the constituency, if only to focus the minds of those who will represent them in the future that this is an important area.

This is one element of political reform. While reducing the number of Members from 166 to 158 may be seen as a significant reform, I do not see it as an end in itself. We must examine many other issues. A number of previous speakers referred to the importance of Deputies being in touch with their communities and the important relationship between Deputies and their constituencies, particularly in rural areas but let us never forget that the best turnout achieved in an election is approximately 70%. This means approximately 30% of the population does not vote and we are falling down in this regard. We are not engaging with those people because they feel the electoral system does not matter to them, is not relevant to them or fails to deliver for them.

I recently had the opportunity to speak to a colleague who lives in Australia, which has adopted compulsory voting. It is considered a controversial topic. However, this measure means that everybody has a stake in the electoral system and must think about it. In other words, being a citizen not only vests rights in a person, it also carries responsibilities, one of which is to participate in the electoral system. By doing so, people have a stake and there is a consequence to their vote. The thought process even of being involved makes them consider where they are in life and where the country is. If we are to embrace electoral reform, our thinking must extend much further than costs and numbers to considering participation and getting citizens involved. Much of what has happened in our country, which is the reason there is such demand for reform, happened because people became detached from politics. They were in tune with the economy rather than the system of governance and where we were going as a country, whether the model in place was correct and whether it was serving them. There was no link between the phenomenon of sky-rocketing property prices and the inability of people to buy a home and the fact that the political system and the Government were responsible for that.

The legislation is one step on the road but I am not sure whether it is a particularly good step. It will happen but the discussion on politics, the electoral system and engaging citizens needs to go much further.

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It is important to declare that I am one of the Members most affected by the redrawing of the constituency boundaries. As Deputy Nolan suggested, I do not believe we can look on this as reform.

It is a cost-cutting exercise. It is not real reform of how we do our business in this Chamber or outside. It should not be sold as reform. It is simply a way of reducing the cost of running the Oireachtas, not reform of how it works.

I am disappointed that the current review has recommended a reduction of the number of Deputies by only eight. A much deeper reform will be needed in the coming years. We are a small workforce. The country's governing bodies will need to be as lean as possible. The reduction in the number of Deputies by eight does not go far enough.

The commission report states that one of the tasks facing it was to avoid, as far as possible, breaches of county boundaries. In Galway East, it has not achieved that goal. A huge area of east Galway has been removed for electoral purposes and placed with Roscommon. The social and cultural ties needed to ensure a cohesive constituency are now not present. People in Dunmore north, Caltra or Kilmore will not be aware of the major political issues of the day in Roscommon and will continue to identify with east Galway, adding to confusion.

Only nine out of the 33 electoral divisions moved into County Roscommon were ever previously part of the Roscommon-East Galway constituency. The newly created Roscommon-East Galway constituency has ensured that a huge portion of east Galway will be cut off from what has always been its natural place in east Galway. For example, placing Castleblakeney or Clontuskert with areas such as Ballyfarnon or Ballaghaderreen simply makes no sense. A number of towns, such as Dunmore, Clonburn, Kilcurran and my own home town of Mountbellew, have also been carved up by the review. Someone will have to explain to me how it makes sense to halve villages the size of these. More than 20,000 voters have been moved into a constituency with which they have little natural affinity. There is a very real threat that, after the next election, those 20,000 people will be left without a representative from this area, as its three current Deputies are from Boyle, Castlerea and Drum, in south Roscommon. A portion of east Galway now finds itself at the very limit of the constituency and out on a limb. Places like Clonfert, Eyrecourt, Kiltormer and Garrafrauns, as their communities are now split between two constituencies, will have two sets of representatives, reducing their capacity to be heard as they lobby for local services. It appears that a wish to reunite Leitrim for electoral purposes has resulted in the carving up of Galway East. While there are politicians in the newly created Roscommon-East Galway who will welcome this move, few householders in Galway East will want to be joined, in political terms, with Roscommon.

Real reform of the political system is what is needed to create a much leaner system of government suited to the needs of Ireland in the current financial climate. The reduction by eight Deputies is a small step in the right direction but the cuts and, most important, the reform must go much deeper if real reform is to be achieved. Government at every level needs to be examined, from the number of Deputies to the cost of each sitting. The role of the Seanad is currently under review. This examination must extend to every level of government, national and local, to ensure this nation of just 4.5 million people is governed in the leanest way possible and to ensure the viability of the nation's finances in the future.

The issue of gender equality in the Oireachtas deserves consideration. There are measures that can and should be taken to ensure greater gender equality in the Dáil, but gender quotas are not the way forward. Jobs should be awarded on merit and that should apply across the board. Women should be encouraged to enter politics by ensuring that the proper supports are available and that barriers to women entering the political arena are removed. The imposition of gender quotas will not further the cause of women entering politics. It will simply improve the optics by having a greater number of women candidates. The real test will be the number of women elected. Thus, the imposition of gender quotas will only serve to undermine much of the progress that has been made on this issue.

This is a small step in the right direction. Huge work remains to be done to ensure that Ireland has the type and extent of government that befits a nation of 4.5 million people while ensuring that those people are listened to by their public representatives and given a legislature and legislation that reflects Ireland in the 21st century.

I, too, am pleased to speak on the Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012. I wonder, however, if the Bill is premature. One of the key elements of the recently established Constitutional Convention is to look at the electoral system and possibly change the way we vote and elect our Deputies. We are probably premature in looking at this issue. As a result, counties will be split all over the place. The Constitution stipulates that each constituency must have at least three and no more than five Deputies. This put constraints on what the Constituency Commission could do. As a result, we have a hotchpotch of constituency boundary changes made to soup up the population and meet a Government target of reducing the number of Deputies from 166 to 158.

Is this simply cosmetic? In other countries with similar populations to our own, such as Denmark, Sweden and Finland, Members of Parliament represent roughly the same number of constituents as we do. People compare Ireland to the United Kingdom, our neighbour across the water, where there is one Member of Parliament for every 100,000 people. We see what is happening in the United Kingdom at present, where they do not know whether they want to be in or out of Europe. Our people are properly represented, with one Deputy for every 30,000 people.

I would have preferred to delay the Bill until the Constitutional Convention had made its recommendations. We could then have kept the identity of each individual county, which is most important. We would not, then, have had the hotchpotch that is Roscommon. Over the years, Roscommon has been in Mayo, Galway, Leitrim and Longford. All those counties rejected Roscommon and threw it out again. Maybe Roscommon could be set out with an identity of its own, following the report of the Constitutional Convention.

That is not the official Government line.

Almost 50% of the submissions to the Constituency Commission came from the Swords area. As a result, Swords has been realigned as a single entity. Deputy Connaughton spoke about towns in Galway East being split. If all those towns had made submissions to the Constituency Commission, would they have been split? I do not think they would.

We talk about Oireachtas reform. Our Friday sittings are very disappointing. They are a waste of time. If we are to be here on Fridays, let us be here for something meaningful. Let us listen to debates and actually vote on them.

It is a totally cosmetic exercise. I hope to have a Bill of my own debated at a Friday sitting but I would like it to be voted on following a meaningful discussion on it. If we are to have Friday sessions, they should be meaningful.

When I canvassed during the general election campaign, people I met on their doorsteps said they wanted me to be elected so that I could represent them in Dáil Éireann. When I was elected, the same people came to me to get their street lights fixed or potholes filled. There is a contradiction between what the people want at election time and what they want afterwards.

It is the Charlie O'Connor syndrome.

Or the Finian McGrath syndrome.

Look what happened to poor Charlie.

Deputy Connaughton stole my thunder with regard to quotas. I am a sheep farmer and I know all about quotas which were held back in the late 1990s and early 2000s when a quota determined how much money a farmer got.

The other night, I watched a satirical television programme from the 1980s called "Yes, Minister". The Minister, Jim Hacker, was trying to promote a woman within the civil service. There was a fight about quotas within the civil service. When he had secured the decision that the woman would be promoted, she decided she would not take the promotion but would go to work in the private sector. He said he had worked hard for her promotion, but her reason for refusing it was that she wanted to succeed on merit. My mother fought for many years to get into Dáil Éireann and she spent a short time here. She would not like to see women as token representatives in this arena. She would like to see women here purely on merit, standing here as equals with men and not as token gestures. I find it difficult to believe we should demean women by classifying them as a quota group. We should not demean women by placing them in a quota category.

While I welcome parts of the Bill, we should have waited until the Constitutional Convention to get a clear recommendation from it on the number of Deputies per constituency. We could have had Roscommon on its own with one or two Deputies instead of being cast aside. In Kildare, there are people in Monasterevin and the south of the county who have no affiliation with Laois whatsoever. If I talk to someone about football, Kildare and Laois are like Manchester United and Manchester City, we hate one another in that neck of the woods. It would be much better that we would be split in two and with the county clearly identified so people would know they were voting for a Kildare person. I know people who have moved to Laois and who have transferred their votes to Kildare so they can vote there.

I welcome parts of the Bill, although it does not go far enough. I hope the Minister takes on board some of my suggestions.

During the last general election campaign, I promised the electorate of Sligo-North Leitrim that it would be a priority for me to restore County Leitrim as a single political unit. In my maiden speech, I described the damage done to the county and its people by dividing the county in two. The generally easy-going people of Leitrim felt a great deal of hopelessness, neglect and annoyance by having the county split in two. I am delighted the commission allowed me to achieve one of my priorities.

Was that a gerrymander?

The Deputy ended the partition of Leitrim.

I am delighted on behalf of the people of Leitrim that the county has once again been restored and that Leitrim has been reunited for electoral purposes.

The wrong has been righted for Leitrim but that wrong has now been visited on other counties. It is wrong that any county should be divided for electoral purposes. East Galway was mentioned and I fully empathise with the people there. We love the people of west Cavan and south Donegal, except when we meet them on the football field, and we love to see them doing well in football if we are not doing well. I have no doubt, however, that the new constituency that takes in Sligo, Leitrim, south Donegal and west Cavan will need a lot of new official documentation because that is a very long constituency name - Sligo-Leitrim-West Cavan-South Donegal.

We will just call it Leitrim.

Whoever is elected to represent the constituency will do his or her utmost to represent the people of west Cavan and south Donegal as well as the people of Sligo and Leitrim but people in those parts of the new constituency will feel the same wrong has been done to them as was done to Leitrim and they will be right. They will suffer the same disadvantage that people in Leitrim suffered when the county was divided.

The report on which the Bill is based recommended there be a reduction from 166 seats to 158 seats. The perceived wisdom is that this is a good thing; reducing is the same as reforming. I argue, however, that this is not the case. Since the last census, the population of Ireland has increased steadily, with a rise of 8.2% over the five years from 2006 to 2011. The report of the commission was based on the population census of 2011 so it does not reflect the current reality.

This is the first time a commission had a predetermined outcome where it would reduce the number of Deputies. Simply reducing the number of Deputies does not constitute political reform and it will not lead to any significant savings. Reducing the number of Deputies weakens democratic representation. There are many ways to streamline and create better ways of working in the Oireachtas without reducing democratic representation.

It makes no sense that local authority administrative areas are different from Dáil constituency boundaries. I cannot think of any other business or industry where there would be a mismatch between the building blocks like that between democracy at local authority level and the Dáil constituencies. It does not work for the management of county councils or the Deputies who represent the areas. It leads to inevitable duplication, inefficiency and gaps in service planning, delivery and evaluation. It does not make sense. Research by political scientists indicates there are real problems for the people involved in the counties where boundaries are breached for electoral purposes. There is an alienation among voters that leads to low turnout in elections.

Additionally, five constituencies are now in breach of the Constitution. Article 16.2.3° states the total number of Members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one Member for each 30,000 of the population or at more than one Member for each 20,000 of the population. Cavan-Monaghan, Donegal, Dublin North-West, Galway West and Mayo each have more than 30,000 per Deputy. Something must be done to address that.

Sinn Féin would like a review of the terms of reference of the commission. It should be possible to have set electoral areas but a flexible number of representatives, particularly if we are open to the notion of five, six, seven or even eight seat constituencies. As far as possible, we should fix electoral areas along county boundaries. It is farcical if, before every election, people do not know if their county will be split or not. There is a way to achieve this if we have the will to do it.

I wish to share time with Deputy Deering and I think Deputy John Paul Phelan might be-----

I can only deal with who is here at present.

I will share time with Deputy Deering. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important matter. It was interesting to hear the contributions of some of the previous speakers on this matter.

Obviously, the constituency boundary review is necessary because of changes and movements in population, and I acknowledge the work that has been done in putting the review in place. Certainly, a review is not easy to do. There are so many permutations and possibilities that it is difficult to settle on one final outcome and I acknowledge the work that went into it. It is far from perfect. Members described how they see many failings in it but one will never satisfy everyone.

While I welcome the reduction in numbers from 166 to 158, this is far short of the reform that we really need in this country. My view is that being in a situation that has the IMF here in the country, and in which we are borrowing from the ECB and the EU to run the country on a day-to-day basis, means our political system has failed. It is quite simple - the political system in the State has failed. If it had not, we would not have the IMF here lending money to the country and helping us to run our affairs. That political failure is something we need to address because, quite simply, the system we have at present has not worked. We need to put in place proper reform. The reform must start here and it must trickle the whole way down to local government.

The electoral system in this country, the PR-STV system with multi-seat constituencies, is one area that we need to look at. Recently, I introduced a Bill here, the Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Dáil Éireann) Bill 2012, which proposes that we would set the number of Deputies in Dáil Éireann at 101, including the Chairman, to be elected from 100 single-seat constituencies throughout the country. We would maintain the transferable vote system. As such, it would be an alternative vote, AV, system electing one per constituency. That is one of the fundamental shifts we need in terms of having a properly functioning Parliament where the Members can focus more on legislation, national issues and policy areas.

What we have at present is a system which has competition at its heart. Whereas competition is very healthy in most cases, our multi-seat constituency competition flies in the face of taking a more proactive parliamentary approach to our work, and we really need to look at that. It was mentioned here earlier by Deputy Lawlor that, even though we are parliamentarians and legislators, if someone comes to us to have a pothole filled or a drain cleared, one cannot say "No". One cannot even delegate because it might give the impression that one does not want to get one's hands dirty with that sort of work. That is the danger a public representative fears and a big problem. If one does not do it, people merely go to the next Deputy who will do it. That is a problem and it is not right. In a single-seat scenario, however, constituents would go to the appropriate person to do the job, who, in that particular example, would be the local county councillor or even the local authority staff. That system would work so much better because it would free up time for the national parliamentarians to look at the issues of the day, to look at policy areas and to devise policy on creating jobs and what the country needs, allowing local county councillors to do what is more appropriate to their job. That is something we really need to look at.

In my case, in Kerry, the review will bring about reunification of the county. Previously, for many decades, there was a north-south split. We also had a ludicrous situation where a little bit of west Limerick was thrown in with north Kerry. Many in that part of Limerick were not happy with that arrangement and now they have gone back in with Limerick county. There are positives with Kerry being a single constituency in that for years politics in Kerry was too local. Fellows were looking after their own patch and not looking at the greater good of the county. A positive from this will be that the larger area, the county as a whole, will be focused on.

One of the difficulties will be that Kerry is a very large county. Geographically, it has three peninsulas, mountains and vast areas of difficult terrain for us to drive through and get about in. If, for example, one must attend a meeting in Tarbert which is right up in the north of the county and after that one needs to go down to Ballinskelligs which is down in the very south-western part of the county, one could be travelling for two and a half hours. One could reach the outskirts of Dublin as quickly as one would get down to Ballinskelligs. Personally, I am quite fortunate in that Castlemaine, my home base, is located in a central part of the county. If I go west I am on the Dingle Peninsula and if I go south, I am on the Iveragh Peninsula. I am not too far from anywhere. For other Deputies, however, it could present a major difficulty in terms of travel times and the logistics of getting around. No doubt that is a major issue. In my proposal, there would be 100 constituencies and no constituency would be too big geographically. It would be a step in the right direction that there would not be Deputies spending three or four hours driving around in their constituencies, merely getting from A to B and home again.

We need to get serious about reform. As I stated, the system clearly has not worked. Let us not deny that. We are only fooling ourselves if we think it has. No country that must bring in the IMF has a properly functioning parliament. The political system here has failed and we need to fix it, and we need to get serious about fixing it. Reducing the numbers from 166 to 158 without putting in proper structural reforms will not fix the problem.

Those are my proposals. I am sure every other Member in this House has ideas on reform and what would work, but we need to get serious about having a debate on this. We are not really debating political reform here in the Dáil Chamber. It is all well and good for issues to be discussed at the Constitutional Convention, but this is the Dáil. This is the Chamber to which Members from all over the country are elected to represent their people and this is where we should be discussing this, and it has not happened. It is disheartening and disillusioning that two years in we still have not discussed that fundamental issue.

I hope there will be an opportunity to discuss my Bill on a Friday. In that regard, I would like to see a continuation of the situation that pertained last week where two Bills were taken on such a day. There is room for that to be done. At least, it would give back bench and Opposition Deputies a greater chance to have their Bills considered. I cannot see why we would not do that, and vote on them on the day as well. That way there would be a little more participation and debate on the Bill.

Revolution on the way.

I would like to see that happening. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on this. We owe it to the people we represent and to the future generations of this country to fix our problems. The country was born out of revolution and over the decades had many high and low times, but this is probably the lowest time the country has every had. If that is not a call for reform, what are we waiting for? How bad does it need to get before we step back and look at how we got here? We are only fooling ourselves and it will be to the detriment of our children and grandchildren if we do not fix this.

I am delighted to get the opportunity to speak on the Bill. I agree with the previous speaker that the Bill represents a missed opportunity for overall reform. We have seen some reform with the abolition of State cars for some Ministers, the proposed reduction in the number of Deputies and the change to ministerial pensions in the future. However, overall reform should have been within the Dáil itself.

I wish to concentrate on an area mentioned by previous speakers, the breach of county boundaries. In his contribution, Deputy Colreavy said he campaigned at the last general election to have County Leitrim reunited in one constituency, and I compliment him on his success in that regard. In Carlow I campaigned on a similar strategy to reunite County Carlow in one constituency. It is the second smallest county in the country with a population of 55,000 people. Unfortunately 5,000 of those people live in the constituency of Wicklow-East Carlow as it is now called. Those people feel alienated because they cannot participate in their own county. Deputy Ó Cuív mentioned how passionate Mayo and Galway people were. The people of Carlow are as proud and passionate about the county jersey as those of any other county and deserve to be part of the one county.

The counties of Carlow and Kilkenny are in the southern area from a HSE point of view and are in the same VEC area. However, at the same time the people of east Carlow have to be part of a constituency that is in the Dublin area from a HSE point of view and in the midland area from a VEC point of view, and they feel totally alienated in that regard. When people are alienated they opt out of the political system, which is very dangerous. It is important to involve people as much as possible in the political system because if we do not, we create a vacuum, which is very dangerous. In the last general election we had one of the highest turnouts for some time. The voter turnout in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency was 70.7% and the turnout in Wicklow-East Carlow was 74.8%. However, the voter turnout in Wicklow, excluding east Carlow, was 75%. The voter turnout in east Carlow, which is now alienated, was only 63.8%, a damning statistic in itself. People who are alienated do not want to involve themselves in the political system. If that dangerous situation is not addressed, that figure will continue to drop. Some 9% of the population are left out and not consulted on all matters.

We are continually compared with the UK where the Members of Parliament, once they are elected, are probably not seen for the following three, four or five years. In Ireland the Deputy or Senator is very much on the ground with his or her constituents, which is very important. If a Deputy or Senator loses touch with his or her constituents, it would be very regressive, and it is important we ensure that does not happen.

County boundaries should be maintained, if at all possible. Deputy Griffin mentioned the Bill he recently introduced whereby the county boundary would not be breached and there would be a number of constituencies. That is an important step and should be considered. The present constituency boundary review is based on figures alone, but as we know there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Nothing else was taken into consideration, including the geographic location and county boundaries. At the end of the day one cannot even appeal what the commission has decided. It is important that we have an independent review commission, but every aspect of the county and constituency should be taken into consideration.

The former American politician, Tip O'Neill, said that all politics is local. There is nothing wrong with Deputies being asked to fill a pothole or fix a light. I accept their primary role is to legislate and that is what they are elected to do. If we lose track of what is happening on the ground, we will leave a dangerous vacuum in society which will not be addressed in the political system.

I have concerns that a number of county boundaries are being breached. We have heard a great deal about County Leitrim in the past. Apparently on this occasion, because there were so many submissions from that area of the country, they eventually got what they wanted, and fair play to them. In County Carlow, 700 or 800 people signed a petition seeking to be reunited with the rest of County Carlow, but unfortunately their views were not heard on this occasion. Do they need to put in 5,000 submissions on the next occasion in order to get what they want? Is it he who shouts the loudest gets the most? We are creating a dangerous situation in that regard.

Overall we are moving in a certain direction, reducing the number of Deputies. There will be considerable reform at local level. Democracy will be on a smaller scale in the future, which is of some concern. I know we need to scale back somewhat, but we cannot do away with democracy at all costs just because it is the popular thing to say or do. We need democracy and it is a cost that is worth bearing. I hope the Minister will take on board some of my views, particularly those on county boundaries. Even though on this occasion the people of Carlow will still feel very disappointed, perhaps on future occasions their voices may be heard.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Electoral (Amendment)(Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012. I know it is trendy and popular to have a go at Deputies, or to suggest reducing the number of Members of the Dáil or closing down the Seanad. However, I wish to point out the dangers of this type of cynicism as a potential threat to real democracy, creating a disconnect from the citizens of the State. I want to build a real republic that is inclusive and democratic. I want reform, inclusion and more democracy, not less. The Bill before us will give us less, which is my major concern. It is not reform, as some Deputies have said, but a cost-cutting exercise. I commend the Deputies on the far side of the House, particularly the newer ones, on some of their bright new ideas and their urgent call for change and reform.

One good aspect of the Bill is the name of the new constituency of Dublin Bay North. It is a good name because of the great amenity that is Dublin Bay. At this point I pay tribute to the late great Seán Dublin Bay Rockall Loftus, who represented my constituency in the past. I am sure he would be delighted to see the new constituency named Dublin Bay North. However, that is also a wake-up call for all of us to ensure we protect this beautiful amenity which spreads right across our city and which belongs not only to the people of Dublin Bay North but also to the people of Dublin and the people of Ireland.

The Bill proposes to implement the recommendations of the 2012 Constituency Commission report, which means in reality reducing the number of Deputies from 166 to 158, reducing the number of Dáil constituencies from 43 to 40 and redrawing many constituency boundaries. That is the essence of the legislation. At this point I wish to welcome those from Howth, Donaghmede, Clonshaugh, Darndale, Baldoyle, Sutton and the residents of Priory Hall into the new Dublin Bay North constituency. I give a commitment that I will do my best to represent the interests of these people, particularly those in the newer areas. However, I will also continue look after the people of Marino, Clontarf, Donnycarney, Artane and Beaumont.

The Deputy should not forget anybody.

I hope I did not leave out any area, having said that. I heard some excellent contributions from Government Deputies. It is very important that we listen to the views of newer Members of the Dáil because they were elected on a mandate of change and reform. Following the disastrous consequences of what happened to the country, people told us on the doorsteps that they wanted ideas on reform and wanted change, which is important in this debate. During the general election campaign I had a leaflet on Dáil reform and I got a mandate from the people of the constituency of Dublin North Central, now called Dublin Bay North, to introduce such reform.

Among the proposals I put on the table was the creation of real democracy with accountability at every level, transformation of the Seanad, within 12 months, into a genuine forum for civil society or abolition of it and the introduction of a system of vouched expenses for politicians. I welcome those proposals recently adopted.

We also need to make Parliament and this House work. We should cease use of the guillotine system to pass legislation not properly scrutinised, give Dáil committees the power to examine proposals on spending and to hold real inquiries by giving them the power to compel witnesses and documents and make senior public servants responsible for their decisions and actions. We need to bring real transparency to the funding of political parties and compel parties to publish annual accounts. We need to register and control lobbyists, to protect whistleblowers and to ensure all appointments to State and public bodies and the Judiciary are open to public competition and Dáil scrutiny. We also need to ban any individual from being a director of more than three major companies or public bodies. There should also be an urgent review of company law to ensure white collar criminals are brought to justice. We also need to revert to use of the provisions in the original freedom of information legislation. They are the proposals which I put on the table during the last general election in respect of which I received the mandate of people in my constituency. We need to make progress on reform. There is no limit to what can be achieved by a community working together. There is no limit to what can be achieved by a Dáil that is in touch with people and does what it was elected to do.

On the legislation, the reduction in the number of Deputies to 158 is a cost saving measure. There is a need to review the representative role of Deputies, their legislative work and the formation of the Government. Other issues of concern are the breaching of county boundaries, equality of representation, female candidacy and local election areas. I accept that reducing the number of Deputies is a commitment of the programme for Government, the objective of which is to reduce the cost and size of government. Savings in this regard are predicted to be in the region €2.2 million, an amount I question. This could also result in cost savings in running elections with fewer constituencies and seats. While I support the need for reform the Minister, whom I welcome to the House, must ensure there is not less democracy. We already have a problem with that in this State and need to do something about it.

On the quotas issue, while I believe in equality for all sectors of society, I have a major concern around this issue. We must ensure that a person gets a job or is elected based on his or her ability and not because a particular amount of seats are reserved for that purpose.

How many candidates will run in the Deputy's constituency?

That is always the subject of debate in my constituency. The Minister would know many of them very well. It is important a consultative process is established. I am concerned when I hear people worrying about consulting citizens and reacting to polls.

Local election areas may need to be revised once the Dáil constituencies have been changed. The Minister in response to a parliamentary question said that any change required to local election boundaries on foot of changes to Dáil constituencies would be in place before the 2014 elections, which I welcome. Significant reform of local government has been promised by the current Government. While I believe there is strong support for reform, we need to ensure that in doing so we do not shaft councillors. I was previously a councillor on Dublin City Council, which experience I found enriching and helpful when I was elected to the Dáil. It is important we remain conscious of the good work being done by councillors.

Another important issue in the context of Dáil reform is that of democracy. I do not go along with the modern view that Deputies who help their constituents on particular issues are out of touch or not doing the job for which they were elected. In my view, while I am a legislator, I am also a messenger of the people to the Dáil. We should make no apologies for prioritising the interests of our constituents as part of our job. It is an important part of our work. Many of the people who come to the clinics of all Members are people experiencing real problems and no person outside of politics should say that we should not try to help them, be it in getting a medical card or making representations on their behalf to the HSE or on a housing or anti-social matter. I make no apology for helping such people as part of my work in representing them. The cynicism of some people towards politicians galls me. What these people are doing is in fact having a go at democracy.

Some 30% to 35% of people in this State do not vote, which concerns me. I believe this is the result of some of the damage done to the political system. Those who do not vote are often people on the margins or people who, despite having a great deal, do not bother. Given there are a number of countries around the world where people do not have the right to vote, they need to cop on. It is their democratic right, if they do not like a particular Deputy or councillor, to vote against that person and ensure he or she does not get elected. That is how politics and democracy works.

On Dublin Bay North, I note there are 146,512 registered voters in that constituency. This means there are 29,302 per representative as it is a five-seat constituency. I am concerned about the physical size of this constituency. I have worked for many years in a three-seat constituency. I have been able to get to know my constituents and service the constituency adequately. I understand the point that personal contact with constituents could become an issue in a large constituency. It is important, in the context of this legislation, that representatives are allowed to continue their close relationships with constituents. I do not go along with the spin that representatives in the UK, other European countries or the USA spend only one day a week in their clinics. I disagree with that. How can one help one's constituents in that way?

It galls me when I hear some commentators say that politicians who do large amounts of constituency work are ignoring the real issues in the country. As far as I am concerned, the real issues in this country are those of concern to people on the ground. They are the people I want to represent. I will do my best in this House to represent unemployed people and small businesses in Donaghmede, Howth, Sutton or Darndale and make no apologies for doing so.

This legislation provides for 11 five-seat constituencies, 16 four-seat constituencies and 13 three-seat constituencies. The legislation also contains further details on these issues. On Dublin Bay North, it is important that as public representatives we ensure the different sections of society throughout that constituency are properly represented. I referred earlier to the late Seán Dublin Bay Rockall Loftus. I will, as he did, work hard to protect Dublin Bay. Thousands of people use that bay every day. I will be a watchdog for Dublin bay. I will also be the watchdog for the small businesses in Darndale, Coolock, Donaghmede and Howth and for the fishermen and fishing industry in Howth. Perhaps the Minister would address the issue of parking facilities in Howth with Fingal County Council. I was in Howth last Sunday, where there is car park next to where the boats come in, which is used by people visiting the area and going to have lunch in the local pubs and restaurants. The proposed introduction of parking charges in Howth by Fingal County Council has the local businesses, restaurants, shops, supermarkets and so on up in arms.

That is devolution of responsibility. That is what local government is all about.

Along with some of the Minister's colleagues, I will be speaking at a public meeting on Monday night.

I hope the Minister, Deputy Bruton, turns up. I will be there representing the people of Howth on the issue. It is very important that we deal with these matters.

I welcome the debate on the Bill. However, I will be voting against it as it is not about real reform, democracy, accountability or, above all, the best interests of Irish citizens. It is certainly not about the most disadvantaged in society.

It is about boundaries for the next election.

If Deputies are removed, democracy will be damaged, as will inclusion and the vulnerable people in Irish society. I know it is very trendy and I accept it is very popular to be against Members of the Oireachtas and want to close the Seanad. I would reform the Seanad and keep it going. I must say some of its Members did not help their case by not opening up the House last week, but that is another debate. We need more democracy, accountability and reform. The Bill does not step up to the mark and I will challenge people on this issue. I will continue to represent the people of my new constituency of Dublin Bay North and the people there will have my total support. I will do my best in the interests of democracy and in the interests of reform, change and accountability.

I thought Deputy McGrath was a Deputy for Dublin North Central.

He is for the moment.

I did not realise the constituency boundaries had already been changed. I am pleased he is eagerly adapting to his new surroundings and that he will be a watchdog for the devil and all on the north side of the city. I know he will put his best efforts into it.

I have a dodgy seat now.

I welcome the fact, which was obvious before the boundary commission produced its report, that the constituencies in the south east would not be greatly affected by any changes because they are already at the upper population limits. I was interested to hear Deputy Finian McGrath state his constituency has 146,000 registered voters, which makes it by far the biggest in the country. I thought there would be 146,000 people, seeing as the Constitution refers to population and not registered voters.

I thank the Deputy for the point of information.

I wish him the best in trying to garner as much support as possible.

I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath with regard to large constituencies. As somebody who, along with the Minister, represents the second largest constituency under the current regime, and which will probably remain the second or third largest after Donegal and Kerry when the new boundaries are introduced, I know there is a big difference between representing urban and rural five-seat constituencies. The distance from the bridge in Waterford to the town of Tullow is significant. It is my honour and privilege to represent the people of Carlow and Kilkenny and I will endeavour to keep it for the foreseeable future.

I echo what Deputy Griffin stated with regard to the number of Deputies. There is a strong argument to be made for further reform of our electoral system and a move towards single seat constituencies with a transferable vote and a further reduction in the number of Deputies. I would not regard this as an erosion of democracy. Deputy Finian McGrath outlined issues relating to parking in his constituency, which should rightfully be performed by local government. The Minister has made very positive steps and I fully support his announcements on reforming local government to give genuinely more power to local elected representatives to influence these decisions. I do not regard the reduction in the number of Deputies as an erosion. I do not believe Oireachtas Members should spend as much time as they do on local government matters, which should be the preserve of members of local authorities. Unfortunately, our local authority system, which has developed since the late 1800s, has seen many of the powers of local government vested in the management. The fact the Minister is in the process of giving back some of these powers to elected councillors is to be very much welcomed.

Perhaps in his comments the Minister might refer to some of the earlier remarks by previous speakers who spoke about the need for mayors to be retained in large towns throughout the country. It was my understanding that under the Department's new proposals on local government reform larger towns would keep their mayors. It is important the new municipal areas would have a mayor. The Minister is absolutely correct in his decision to abolish town councils. At present, a number of countries have five, six, seven, eight, nine or ten local authorities and more in some instances. Streamlining the number of local authorities is to be very welcomed. In some local authorities, one requires 50 or 60 votes to be elected and this is not a fair reflection on democracy, particularly when one considers that in parts of Dublin election quotas are 3,000 or 4,000 votes. The Minister's moves to bring a more uniform approach throughout the country in this regard are to be welcomed. I have some reservations about the fact that the terms of reference for the local boundary commission would see some very large electoral areas created in counties throughout the country, with some counties having two or three electoral areas, which would be difficult to cover for councillors who will still be in a part-time role.

I echo the calls and statements of other Deputies on the fact that throughout the country the electoral register is not kept up to date in the manner in which it used to be under the old system. Rate collectors kept electoral registers very much in order and I do not see them kept as efficiently at present. This leads to a situation whereby when elections are held, the turnout in some constituencies is considerably higher than stated because the electoral register is not in order. People who have been dead for many years are still on the electoral registers as are people who have left and moved from one constituency to another. It gives rise to a misleading figure.

With regard to future boundary changes to Dáil constituencies, I urge the Minister to match local authority electoral areas and Dáil constituencies. Deputy Finian McGrath mentioned his Dublin Bay North constituency, which sees the crossing of a local authority boundary between the city of Dublin and Fingal. There is a need to try to match these boundaries as much as possible.

I fully agree with the reforms on the vouched system of expenses for Members of the Oireachtas as announced in the budget and these are very much to be welcomed. I have supported a fully vouched system for a long time. The Minister's efforts to include more women in politics are appropriate. Our political system is particularly biased against younger women who have families. The Minister made necessary changes in this regard.

Regarding the activities of the Oireachtas itself, I welcome the fact that included on the A-list for Government legislation this term is a Bill that will give extra investigative powers to Oireachtas committees.

There is a need, from time to time, to allow a freer system of voting in the Oireachtas so that Members would not always be bound by party Whips on issues. In many parliaments around the world, not least at Westminster, a much freer system of allowing parliamentarians to vote currently exists, albeit excluding money Bills and the formation of a government.

I wish to make a couple of points concerning this Bill. I will start by looking back at the 14 election campaigns in which I was involved with the late Tony Gregory in Dublin Central. I was thinking of the various changes in that constituency at different times. The East Wall area where I live, which to me is very much Dublin Cental, was out of the constituency at one stage, whereas areas such as Ballyfermot and Inchicore were included. On another occasion, we had the Fairview and Marino areas in Dublin Central, which are now in Deputy Finian McGrath's constituency.

The Bill before us proposes changes to Dublin Central, so I wish to examine how and why this is so. Another electoral commission is suggesting radical changes to Dublin Central, both in the area and number of seats. The Bill is supposed to be part of the agenda for political reform but there are more matters to examine in terms of political reform, particularly the work of the House and how we can make it more relevant and efficient. It must also be more representative of the Ireland we live in, including community issues.

The first step was to examine the work of Deputies to see exactly what we do and are supposed to be doing. Reform of the Oireachtas, including the work of Deputies, should have determined the number of Deputies required. While I may be somewhat cynical, I am just wondering about a pre-election promise to reduce the number of Deputies without examining what is needed. Real research into political reform should have happened first, including the work of Deputies. That might have indicated that we need even fewer Deputies than the proposed reduction of eight seats. It might also have considered other aspects because I am not too sure if the needs of constituencies were taken into account. It seems that a situation demanded by the Government drove the process, rather than the reform process, including Deputies' work, leading to the solution. It is like putting the cart before the horse, so that the evidence will fit the required result. Some €2.2 million is being saved by reducing Dáil membership but that sum could have been saved in other ways. We could have examined expenses and allowances, including those for leaders and political parties. We could also have examined pensions, which should have been addressed first, rather than what is happening with this legislation.

The Constitution requires that constituency boundaries should be revised every 12 years, but does that mean that it has to bring about such a massive change as proposed by this Bill? We will lose eight Deputies and there are changes to approximately ten constituencies. This cannot be just a box-ticking exercise concerning the programme for Government, without due regard for what is really needed for political reform. It has been suggested that reducing the number of Deputies will mean more focus on their national legislative role. However, that presupposes that other work is being done concerning the role of local authorities, officials and councillors in local government. That should have occurred first before considering the Dáil.

What is happening will not bring that about in a significant way. Certain rural Deputies will now have to move through a wider area, including more counties. I am thinking of those in Kerry, Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Leitrim, Roscommon and Sligo. An important factor is the ability of Deputies to be in touch with their constituents. Despite social media and e-mail, constituents like to have personal contact with their local representatives, whether at meetings or clinics. While Deputies will face such difficulties in some rural areas, I do not face that physical geographical challenge in Dublin Central. In fact, the constituency is so reduced that it certainly makes canvassing and leafleting much more manageable. However, I have lost major areas and communities that I still represent. I do not have any new areas, but I am thinking of those areas that have been lost to Dublin West and Dublin North West. I do not envy the political aspirants there, or the Deputies in my own or other areas who are now taking this on. While there may be an existing constituency, Deputies obviously want to be re-elected so they will have extra work in order to make an impact in their new areas.

The proposed changes will mean marginalising certain sections of Dublin Central. The number of seats is being reduced to three, yet the two local authority wards have five and six councillors each. There is a suggestion that might be increased, but there is something awry if at the same time we are reducing the number of Deputies. These changes are going against population growth trends in Dublin Central. The readjustments are more reflective of the electoral register than the population.

Residential vacancy rates in Dublin Central are very high. At the last census, it was over 25% in many parts. These empty residencies, many in relatively new buildings, will be re-occupied so there will be changes. We also have an extremely high turnover in private rented accommodation in Dublin Central, so people are constantly moving off the electoral register. Equally, however, people are coming onto the register, sometimes in higher numbers than those leaving. There is a real danger that we will have disproportionate under-representation in the Dublin Central constituency, yet we will have to wait a decade or so before that can be redressed.

There are significant numbers of foreign national residents in Dublin Central. While a number of them are on the electoral register for local elections, many are not. They have issues and difficulties and are in touch with me and other Deputies. Sometimes those numbers are not taken into account. If the proposed changes for Dublin Central go ahead, there could even be a constitutional challenge, if required, to ensure fair representation.

There seems to be a contradiction about whether smaller or larger constituencies will favour more representation by women. My views on this matter are known; I am not in favour of quotas because I think women are quite capable of being elected on their own behalf. Obviously, I would like to see more women in the Dáil but, equally, I would like to see more representation for other groups. There is a certain age cohort that is not represented in the House and other groups are not represented either.

I cannot finish my contribution without mentioning that I represent the Independent seat that was held for 27 years by Tony Gregory, the longest serving Independent Deputy. Regardless of how people may feel about the late Mr. Gregory's politics or policies, I do not think there is any doubt about his integrity and the principled approach he took, based on fairness and social justice. What is happening in Dublin Central could be interpreted as a cute piece of social engineering to enable the sustainability of two other constituencies that do not have an Independent representation, at the potential cost of the longest held Independent seat in our history.

I am one of the Independent representatives on the Constitutional Convention, which is another example of putting the cart before the horse. That is another issue the convention could have taken on.

I wish to thank the Deputies who have made contributions on Second Stage. Based on those contributions, I think there is a general understanding of the need to respect the independence of the Constituency Commission and accept its recommendations.

Deputies Stanley, Ellis, Ó Caoláin and Colreavy suggested that five of the new constituencies specified are unconstitutional. This is not the case. The Deputies have not correctly interpreted the provisions of the Constitution. The requirement is for the total number of Members of Dáil Éireann to be no less than one Member for each 30,000 of the population, and no more than one Member for each 20,000. That is a national figure. No specific constituency limit is set. The constituency requirement is for the same ratio of representation in constituencies as far as practical. It is not correct, therefore, to say that five of the constituencies specified in the Bill would be in breach of the Constitution.

Many Deputies have raised concerns that relate to political reform in a wider and more general sense. I assure all Members of the Government's continuing commitment to implementation of its programme for political reform. While it is far from complete, much has been achieved in two years and the people of Ireland can look forward to further achievement in this regard over the next three years.

As I stated in my opening speech on 20 November 2012, the Bill continues a long established practice of implementing the recommendations of independent constituency commissions in full. This Bill will bring Dáil constituencies into line with the population as ascertained in census 2011 and in accordance with the constitutional imperatives and other legal requirements. All Members can recognise that it might have been possible for the commission to suggest solutions other than those recommended in the report and I appreciate fully the concerns that arise from some recommendations. However, were Members legislating for the maximum number of Deputies permissible under the Constitution, which would be 229 Members, there undoubtedly still would be some who would not be satisfied with some element or other of Dáil constituency arrangements. Lest Members are worried on that point, I assure them the Government is not going in that direction.

Some Deputies drew my attention to particular Dáil constituencies and made their pitches for the areas they represent, particularly in those areas in which there will be constituency changes. However, as I have stated previously, these are the swings and roundabouts of a constituency revision in the context of an independent commission. All I can do is ensure that the best arrangements, as far as practicable, will have regard to the Constitution and the statutory requirements. I again thank the Acting Chairman and Members for their input into this debate and I look forward to further consideration on Committee Stage of the specific conditions of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
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