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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jan 2013

Vol. 789 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Yesterday, Oireachtas Members across all parties were briefed by the nursing unions on the cynical and over-spun announcement of the 1,000 jobs, which will be two year contracts, for newly qualified graduates at 20% below the normal wage rate for nurses. What emerged during that briefing yesterday was interesting. First, those present were adamant that, contrary to what the Taoiseach said yesterday, no new jobs are being created and that 1,000 agency jobs will be lost as a result of the creation of these so-called new jobs. Second, the deal was done with no discussion with the unions and, third, no alternatives in terms of where savings could be more effectively made have been examined by the Government, Minister or HSE. It was suggested that more than double the savings achieved as a result of this measure could be realised via alternative routes, in particular in terms of VAT and agency fees.

Nurses throughout the country view this initiative as a downgrading of their profession, which explains why so few have applied for the posts. We were told that up to last week only 30 applications had been received, hence the decision to extend the initiative to 2010 and 2011 graduates. Interestingly, the unions also told us yesterday that the management side of Government had been told, in the context of the extension of the Croke Park agreement talks, that this was a game breaker and that there would be no successful outcome to those talks if this issue was not revisited.

Intervention in this matter by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, has added fuel to the fire. The Minister said that nurses and midwives who are not happy with this initiative can emigrate or opt to work in fast food outlets, which was an appalling intervention by the Minister, who was characteristically dismissive and arrogant.

A question, please.

Does the Tánaiste agree with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, that they would be better off emigrating or working in fast food outlets? Will the Tánaiste confirm also if, as stated by the Minister, this initiative is to be extended to physiotherapists and occupational therapists? We were told yesterday that HSE management and Department of Finance officials had categorically told the unions it would not be extended to physiotherapists and occupational therapists.

Thank you, Deputy.

Can the Tánaiste confirm this morning on behalf of Government whether it is planned to broaden this scheme out to allied health professionals in the system? Will he also clarify whether the Government has considered the alternatives, which could realise more than double the savings proposed to be made as a result of this particular initiative?

Let us be clear, this is about new jobs. There are many people in this country who are out of work.

Yellow pack, cheap labour.

This is Leaders' Questions. I do not want any interruptions, please.

Deputy Higgins is not a Leader.

Neither is Deputy Durkan.

The Government has made it clear that putting people into employment is its top priority. If a multinational company came into this country and announced 1,000 new jobs for graduates, everybody in this House would welcome it. An additional 1,000 jobs are being created in the nursing sector. There are currently approximately 35,000 employed in the health service. These 1,000 posts for graduate nurses are additional jobs. It is not intended to extend the initiative beyond graduate nurses.

It is 1,000 jobs lost for agency nurses.

That is the intention and is what is being done. This is about providing employment. As a result of this initiative, there will be 1,000 additional nurses in the health service.

Even the Tánaiste's party members do not believe him.

It is better for graduate nurses to be in employment. It also benefits the health service.

(Interruptions).

I must ask Members to show some respect to the people asking questions and those replying.

It is important we have clarity and the facts in this House. The union representatives were adamant yesterday that these posts do not represent additional jobs as an instruction has been given to cut the number of agency nurses by 1,000. What this represents is the replacement of 1,000 agency nurses with 1,000 newly qualified nurses at a reduced rate. That is what is on the table. These are not new additional posts. That is the position. There is no point trying to confuse or mislead people on that fundamental point.

Thank you, Deputy.

I also asked the Tánaiste to comment on the intervention by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, that young nurses who are not prepared to take up these jobs should emigrate or go work in fast food outlets. Does the Tánaiste believe that this response - which is a let them eat cake type approach - from the Minister is appropriate? I also asked the Tánaiste if he would confirm if the initiative is to be extended to other allied health professionals. Perhaps he would do so this morning.

Deputy Kelleher tabled a question on this matter yesterday-----

Deputy Martin is way over time.

-----in which he asked how many people had applied for these posts. In a new farcical high, in terms of transparency from this Government, the reply was: "It is not considered appropriate to disclose the number of applications received while a public service recruitment competition is in progress." Has anyone ever heard the likes of it? That was the response given in reply to a parliamentary question from Deputy Kelleher.

So much for transparency.

So much for transparency, Tánaiste.

(Interruptions).

Please allow the Tánaiste to reply.

The bottom line is that this is annoying people. I put it to the Tánaiste, as a former SIPTU official, that he knows this is not the route to go.

Deputy, please co-operate with the Chair.

There are sensible alternatives to this. It now seems that the cause has become greater than pragmatism, cop-on or common sense.

It is a case that we will get this through no matter what because we have put so much into the initiative, whereas alternatives are there to be explored which could realise the savings. The Tánaiste should revisit this and ensure he can implement the alternatives being offered by the unions.

St. Francis of Assisi.

At a time of very high unemployment, when many graduates are unable to find employment on leaving college, the priority must be providing employment opportunities. This will provide employment opportunities for 1,000 graduate nurses. The current complement of nurses in the health service is approximately 35,000. This additional 1,000 will bring the number to 36,000. Additional posts are being created in the health service. With respect to the issue of graduates emigrating, what this is all about is providing employment for graduate nurses at home-----

It was the Minister, Deputy Reilly, who made that comment.

-----in this country in our health service, which I think is better from the point of view of the graduate nurses themselves. It is also better from the point of view of the health service. We need to be reasonable about this.

I am being reasonable.

This means looking at a situation where there has been a restriction on recruitment throughout the public service, as we know. There is an employment control framework. These additional jobs are being created outside of this employment control framework. There is no question, as the Deputy alleged, of downgrading the nursing profession. This is not being done.

That is what is happening. The health service plan will reduce the number of jobs by 3,500.

I have the height of regard, as does the Government, for nurses and what they do and for their profession.

How can the Tánaiste speak about additionality when the plan itself involves a reduction of 3,500 jobs?

This is 1,000 additional jobs.

The jobs are not jobs at the proper rate.

As for the point on the parliamentary question, it is not unreasonable to wait until the closing date for applications before one states how many people have applied.

The closing date has passed.

The Tánaiste never answered the question.

It can be reasonably stated the closing date has passed and had to be extended because the young graduate nurses and midwives, who along with their union leaders briefed Members of the Oireachtas yesterday, made it absolutely clear they will boycott this scam. It is not a scheme; it is a scam. This was imposed without consultation. For all the Tánaiste's talk of the necessity for agreement and Croke Park nua, he is setting out in a very deliberate way to slash the wages of graduate midwives and nurses by 20%. These are not new jobs. It is very clear that 1,000 existing posts in the system will be displaced to bring in graduates and exploit them at 20% less than the rate to which they are entitled. The Tánaiste's claim that this will somehow stem the tide of emigration is farcical when one considers across the water in London a graduate nurse will earn £33,000. If one of our very qualified graduates decides to go further afield, he or she will earn the equivalent of €40,000 and more. Let us not play games.

I understood that whatever about Fine Gael's disposition, the Labour Party would be committed to a concept of equal pay for work of equal value. I understood this because the Tánaiste keeps telling us he respects the public service and the profession of nursing, but all of the evidence stands to the contrary. The Government is cynically engineering a situation where young highly qualified graduates will earn €22,000 a year. I need not say the contrast this makes with the Tánaiste's pay packet and that of many others throughout the public service and Civil Service.

Deputies

Including yours.

Will the Tánaiste, who is the leader of the Labour Party, see that this scam is ended? Will he tell us about the status of this issue in respect of the Croke Park talks? We were told, as the previous speaker indicated, that this matter is on the table and that it will prove to be a game changer or game breaker for the unions and, crucially, for the young graduate nurses.

I repeat that we have an unacceptably high level of unemployment in this country. This level of unemployment is particularly severe among young people. One in four young people between the ages of 16 and 25 in this country are out of work. There are far too many graduates in different professions coming out of college who are unable to find employment in this country. Many of these young people are, unfortunately, emigrating. What this is about is providing employment opportunities for 1,000 graduates, in this case in the nursing profession. The idea of a graduate entry recruitment scale or salary is nothing new. It is done in the private sector and public sector. It has been done often in the past. This is about providing and creating an additional 1,000 jobs for graduates who will go into the nursing profession.

It is not. It is about replacing 1,000 agency nurses. Tell the truth.

Playing with figures.

In respect of the discussions on the Croke Park agreement, these discussions are best conducted by those involved in them. The discussions are being led by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. They are ongoing and it is a matter for the participants in these discussions on the trade union and the employer sides to put whatever issues they wish to put on the table.

The graduate nurses were always going to be afforded an opportunity in the system, for the very simple reason that already our health services and hospitals are understaffed and under pressure. The Tánaiste knows this. The difference the Government has made here is that it has cut their entry rate by 20%. The real irony in all of this is that it is not actually about cost savings because if the Government was serious about cost savings, it would move entirely away from agency nursing and directly employ people in the system.

We all know this is much more cost effective. However, people would be employed at the proper and full rate. So Members understand, the graduate nurses and midwives are people who have families Many of them have children. They have rent and mortgages to pay like everybody else. They are telling us very clearly that they cannot and will not carry out these duties at yellow pack rates. It is as simple as this. It is very depressing to hear the leader of the Labour Party support so fulsomely a scheme - or scam - which is not about new jobs or any concern for young graduates or stopping emigration but which is all about driving down the wages of the nursing profession. It is nurses today. Who will it be next? Is this the blueprint for the health services? Is the Government intent on expanding this throughout the professions?

It is not about driving down wages. There is no reduction in the pay of nurses. The pay for nurses is not being-----

A two-tier system.

Allow the answer, please.

Sinn Féin comes here week after week and whatever the issue is, it makes some allegation that adds more and more to it.

There is no allegation. It is the truth.

The Tánaiste wrote the book on that.

There is no reduction. Get the facts.

There is a 20% reduction.

Let us stick with the facts. There is no reduction in the pay of nurses.

Nurses' pay is not being reduced. What is being proposed-----

Let us hear the reply.

The Tánaiste should go back to first class and do his maths again.

Please allow an answer. We all want to hear the answer. The Deputies may not like the answer but let us hear it anyway.

What is proposed here is the creation of an additional 1,000 jobs in the nursing profession for graduate nurses.

That is what is being proposed and it is over and above the existing complement of nurses who are employed in the health service.

The Tánaiste has been re-reading Animal Farm.

I would appreciate it if the Tánaiste could ignore interruptions because I will try to control those who are interrupting.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. Sinn Féin cannot come in here one day moaning about unemployment, yet come in the next day lashing any proposal to get people into employment. This is about providing jobs for graduates and addressing the serious issue we have of the numbers of people who cannot find employment at all, particularly graduates. In this case, in the nursing profession there are 1,000-----

They will emigrate and go where they are paid properly.

Please. There are 1,000 additional jobs being created for nurses. Opposition Members may try to say that there is some other agenda, but it is simply about providing employment opportunities for people who do not currently have them.

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Where will the 1,000 agency nurses go when they lose their jobs?

Deputy Mattie McGrath is representing your group, Deputy Higgins, so give him a chance.

On behalf of the Technical Group, I want to follow up on the two previous speakers who questioned the Tánaiste. Quite frankly, I know by the Tánaiste's body language that his heart is not in the replies he is giving here today. I can remember the Deputy Eamon Gilmore whom I sat behind on the Opposition benches for four years. He demonstrated righteous indignation with all things that were or were not happening. We were going to see Labour's way or Frankfurt's way. Is this Labour's way, to tell deliberate untruths and be mischievous about creating 1,000 new jobs? Nothing could be further from the truth. No new jobs are being created.

These are our health care professionals to whom, on a daily basis - literally from womb to tomb - we entrust our families and our lives. They have a vocation and are highly skilled. Whether they work in labour wards, intensive care, accident and emergency units or palliative care, they look after us with professionalism and dignity. These people deserve respect from all of us, but above all from the Minister for Health. They should not be abused, as he was quoted as doing in the Sunday Business Post last week, by telling them that if they do not like it they can lump it and do yellow pack jobs packing supermarket shelves. This an outrageous attack by the Government on the caring professions. I need not even mention the plight of junior doctors who are being forced to do slave labour, in spite of an EU directive that we have to honour. It is Labour's way all right - they ignore the EU directive when they want to. It is Frankfurt's way, however, when we pay the bondholders that the Tánaiste said he was going to burn.

I can see in the Tánaiste's face and body language that he is not happy with this answer today. He knows it is untrue. He is trying to sell us porkies over here, but we are not going to buy it. Above all, he knows that the people, including these nurses, their families and their patients, are not buying it either. I have spoken about this matter to people in South Tipperary and in hospitals all over the country. The Tánaiste knows better than anybody else that this is playing games and massaging figures, which he is very good at.

What value does the Government put on young medical professionals? Will the Government investigate the working conditions of junior doctors to ensure they are not in breach of the EU directive, and report back to the Oireachtas as soon as possible? Will the Government reverse the disproportionate attack which has reduced these graduates' pay? These are our caring professions and we do not want them to emigrate; it would be worse than the Flight of the Earls. As Deputy Martin has pointed out, he received a misleading reply because he could not get the number who have applied. Who would apply? When the Tánaiste treats people with disdain, he will get the result he sought.

The priority for this Government is to get people into employment. We have an unemployment rate which is far too high. The biggest problem the country is currently facing is the issue of unemployment. People are finishing school and coming out of colleges but cannot get work. That is an enormous problem for the individuals concerned, their families and society. We must address it and are doing so at a number of levels. We are encouraging inward investment with the creation of jobs, and putting in place a range of measures that will provide employment opportunities and experience for people who would not otherwise get it. One of the ways of doing it is by the recruitment of 1,000 graduate nurses in our health service. It is about putting people into employment, nothing else. That is what is intended here.

It is slave labour.

It is over and above the existing complement of people who are employed in the health service, which includes 35,000 nurses. This brings the total to 36,000 nurses. They are additional nurses in our health system. It provides employment opportunities for young graduate nurses who would not otherwise get them.

What about the agency nurses?

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath, please. He is well able to speak for himself.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I am and I know that the Tánaiste is and always was, as well. The Labour Party was founded in Clonmel and I welcomed him there last year to commemorate the party's 100th anniversary. Given the proud tradition of the Labour Party, however, I am simply appalled that the Tánaiste would treat nurses, our caring profession, like that. I listened to his spiel about jobs, the five-point plan and his promises. Yes, it is vital that we create employment but above all we must also care for our young, elderly and other vulnerable people. We must treat our health care professionals with some modicum of respect and fair play, which they deserve. We are just displacing agency nurses. Fewer than 35 people have applied for the vacancies, so people are voting with their feet. They have no faith if they do not get respect. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, is telling them to eat cake or else pack supermarket shelves, but that is not the way to treat them. The Tánaiste knows that, as does the former Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, which is why she is not in the Department of Health any more. This is a con. Somebody called it a scam, but I would call it a sham. I am asking the Tánaiste to revisit it for the sake of all those working in the health care sector, including hospitals. People in the community are under pressure and need honest answers, not spin and massaged figures about job creation, which we are getting in all Departments. Nursing is the most caring profession. It is a vocation and we must respect nurses.

Plus 1,000 and minus 1,000 equals zero.

I do not want to interfere in the internal politics of the Technical Group but Deputy Mattie McGrath is their spokesman for today.

Of course, the Government respects those working in our health services. They are doing a fabulous job in very difficult circumstances, as there is increasing demand on our health services. They have to do that work with less resources and, in many cases, with fewer people. This proposal is about jobs. Our top priority is getting people into employment and thus getting work experience. There are currently 35,000 nurses in the system and this proposal will bring the number to 36,000. They are 1,000 additional posts for graduate nurses. At a time when there is so much unemployment and so many young graduates cannot get any work, I think Members of this House should be welcoming the creation of jobs, rather than coming in here and complaining about it.

What is there to welcome?

That completes Leaders' Questions. We now move on to the Order of Business.

We are back to the naíonáin beaga. Plus one and minus one equals zero.

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