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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 31 Jan 2013

Vol. 790 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Seirbhísí Farantóireactha

Ba mhaith liom leithscéal a ghabháil leis an gcathaoirleach agus leis an Aire Stáit as bheith mall. Mar is eol don Aire Stáit, ó thráthnóna anocht ar aghaidh, ní bheidh aon chonradh ag na báid atá ag freastal ar Inis Mór, nó ar Oileáin Árann. Ciallaíonn sé sin, in ionad a bheith ag íoc €8 fillte, nó €10 mar atá á íoc ar Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr, go mbeidh oileánaigh Inis Mór fágtha ag íoc €15 ar an turas fillte. Beidh méadú mór ar an gcostas do mhic léinn freisin. Chomh maith le sin, nuair atá conradh ann, tá smacht ag an Roinn ar rudaí ar nós caighdeán na seirbhíse, amchlár na seirbhíse agus an mbeidh an tseirbhís ann ar chor ar bith nó nach mbeidh. Tá praghas, caighdeán, clár ama agus cinnteacht faoi sheirbhis i gceist le na conarthaí seo.

Ó mhaidin amárach amach, ní bheidh aon chinnteacht faoi aon cheann den cheithre rud seo. Is ceist an-mhór í seo do mhuintir Inis Mór, mar gan seirbhís rialta bád agus eitleán go dtí an mórthír, níl muintir an oileáin in ann a gcuid gnóthaí a dhéanamh ná na seirbhísí a theastaíonn uathu a fháil curtha ar fáil. Ní thuigim cén chaoi ar éirigh an fhadhb seo, mar dá dtiocfar chuig conradh nó tairiscint sách luath, bheadh dóthain ama le plé agus margáintíocht a dhéanamh le na daoine a chur isteach tairiscint le teacht ar chomhréiteach na ceiste seo.

Chomh maith le sin, dá nglacfaí le comhairle na n-oileán, ó tharla nach raibh ach duine amháin ag obair nó a raibh bád aige le tamall anuas ag cur seirbhíse ar fáil ó Ros a'Mhíl go dtí na hoileáin, bhí seans ann nach mbeadh ann ach tairiscint amháin. Sa chomhthéacs sin, bhí sé neamhchosúil leis an uair dheireanach a chuatas chun taireasceana, am a raibh cúpla bád ag tabhairt seirbhíse go dtí Oileán Árann. An t-am seo, b'é comhairle na noileánaigh go mba cheart conradh Inis Mór a cheangail le conradh Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr, mar a bhí déanta i dtosach báire nuair nach mbíodh ann cheana ach bád farantóireachta amháin ag tabhairt seirbhise rialta go hÁrainn.

Anois, an rud a rinne an tAire Stáit ná muintir Árann a fhágáil gan seirbhís faoi chonradh, gan aon chinnteacht ar chéard a tharlóidh ó sheachtain go seachtain i dtaobh seirbhísí bád go dtí an t-oileán seo. Tá sé riachtanach go dtiocfaidh an tAire Stáit ar réiteach na ceiste seo láithreach agus go mbeidh muintir Árann i dteideal na seirbhísí céanna atá ar fáil do dhaoine ar fud na tíre – seirbhís fhóirdheonaithe faoi chonradh ag an Stát.

Go deimhin féin, tá blianta fada ann ó chuir muid an tseirbhís seo in áit. Bhí an tseirbhís faoi chonradh in áit go dtí na hOileáin Árann i bhfad sula raibh sí ar fáil ag oileáin eile. Ach is léir go bhfuil an bun struchtúr seirbhísí a chuir an Rialtas deiridh ar fáil do na hoileáin á scriosadh agus á mhilleadh de réir a chéile agus á chur ar neamhní.

Faoi láthair tá 25 conradh ag an Roinn chuig 21 oileán. Clúdaíonn na conarthaí farantóireachta seo, paisinéirí, lastas, bus agus seirbhísí aeir agus tá soláthar €5.9m ag mo Roinn le haghaidh na cúrsaí sin. Leis na gealltanais atá ann inniu, táimid ag íoc thart ar 60% den soláthar seo ar na trí oileán Árann amháin, áit a bhfuil 43% de dhaonra na n-oileán de réir an daonáireamh. Ar ndóigh, tá an tsoláthar atá ar fáil do mo Roinnse ciorraithe go mór le cúpla bliain anuas - ar nós go leor Ranna eile - agus caithfidh mise a chinntiú go bhfuil gach oileán ag fáil cothrom na féinne agus go bhfuil mise ag fáil luach airgid ar an gcaiteachas atá i gceist anseo.

Mar is eol don Teach, tá deireadh ag teacht le conradh farantóireachta Árann inniu. D'fhógair mo Roinn léiriú spéise sa chonradh seo ar chóras e-tenders agus seoladh na cáipéisí tairisceana amach le dáta dúnta de 21 Nollaig 2012. Níor tháinig aon tairiscint ar ais chuig mo Roinn, sé sin le rá nár chuir aon chomhlacht nó aon ghnó isteach air. Bhí plé ina dhiaidh sin ag mo Roinn leis an bhfarantóir a chuireann an tseirbhís farantóireachta ar fáil d'Árainn faoi láthair, féachaint an bhféadfaí an conradh reatha a athnuachan ar na téarmaí céanna a bhí ann go dtí seo. Níor éirigh leis na cainteanna sin mar ní fhéadfadh mo Roinn glacadh le héileamh an fharantóra ardú ollmhór a cheadú sa fóirdheontas i gcás seirbhís atá, de réir cosúlachta, brabúsach cheana féin. Fiú dá mbeadh na cainteanna sin ar siúl i bhfad roimhe sin, ní fhéadfadh mo Roinn teacht ar shocrú ar na téarmaí a bhí ar fáil - mar sin, ní ghlacaim leis ar chor ar bith go raibh sé fágtha ró-dheireanach. Tuigim go mbeidh sé ar chumas an fharantóra leanúint leis an seirbhís céanna gan chúnamh Stáit, mar go bhfuil inmharthanacht tráchtála ann, agus go bhfuil i gceist aige é sin a dhéanamh.

Maidir le cumarsáid idir muintir Árann agus mo Roinn, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil mo Roinn i gcónaí sásta bualadh le hionadaithe na n-oileán chun comhairle a ghlacadh agus eolas a roinnt. Ar ndóigh, ní féidir mianta an phobail a shásamh i gcónaí mar bíonn cúinsí éagsúla le cur san áireamh. Go deimhin bhí cruinniú ag oifígigh mo Roinne le hionadaithe phobail Árann Dé hAoine seo caite chun an scéal a mhíniú dóibh agus tuigim go raibh plé oscailte ag an gcruinniú sin faoi na dúshláin atá i gceist.

Agus mé ag caint anseo, ba mhaith liom a rá freisin go bhfuil conradh nua aontaithe idir mo Roinn agus Aran Ferries Teo chun seirbhís farantóireachta paisinéara a chur ar fáil idir Inis Meáin/Inis Oírr agus an mórthír don tréimhse 1 Samhain 2012 go dtí 31 Deireadh Fómhair 2017. Aontaíodh an conradh seo mar thoradh ar phróiseas tairisceana. Ar éileamh ó na hoileánaigh, rinneadh iarracht na trí oileán Árann a chur le chéile ach níor éirigh leis sin mar arís ní fhéadfadh mo Roinn glacadh le hardú ollmhór ar an gcuid sin den tseirbhís a bhain le hÁrainn amháin - ardú os cionn 300% a bheadh i gceist i gcás seirbhís atá brabúsach gan aon fhóirdheontas, mar a dúirt mé cheana. Ar an dóigh céanna, tá conradh nua aontaithe mar thoradh ar phróiseas tairisceana idir mo Roinn agus an comhlacht Lasta Mara chun seirbhís lastais a chur ar fáil idir na hOileáin Árann agus an mórthír don tréimhse 1 Eanáir 2013 go 31 Nollaig 2017.

Sa tábla, a leanas, mar eolas don Teach, tá achoimre ar na costais a thitfidh ar mo Roinnse i 2013 i ndáil leis na seirbhísí paisinéara go hÁrainn.

Tá súil agam go soiléiríonn an méid sin an staid reatha maidir le Árainn. Tá mo Roinn go hiomlán oscailte faoi na céad céimeanna eile. Mar shampla, bheifí breá sásta labhairt arís leis an bhfarantóir maidir leis an gconradh atá ag críochnú inniu ach i gcomhthéacs na srianta atá ráite agam cheana féin. Chomh maith céanna, beifear sásta tairiscintí a lorg arís má cheaptar go mbeidh athrú ar an scéal an babhta seo. Táimid oscailte; níl aon rud dúnta. Ar ndóigh, táimid leis an fhadhb seo a réiteach ar mhaithe leis na hoileánaigh.

Oileán

Comhlacht

2013

Inis Meáin/Oírr

Aran Ferries

733,333.33 (go deireadh na bliana)

Oileáin Árann

Lasta Mara Teo

752,701.16 (go deireadh na bliana)

Árainn

Island Ferries Teo

7,900.90 (go 31.1.13)

PSO

Aer Arann Islands

1,125,000.00 (go 31.8.13)

Bainistíocht Aerphoirt Teoranta

228,110.00 (go 31.8.13)

lomlán do 2013

€2,847,045.39

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ó na figiúirí a thug an tAire Stáit, is léir nach bhfuil i gceist anois ach €560,000 sa bhliain ar na seirbhísí seo ar fad. Tá cuma mhór ar na figiúirí mar tá cúig bliana i gceist. In aghaidh na bliana, áfach, tá ciorrú mór i gceist anseo.

An bhféadfadh an tAire Stáit a rá liom ar chuir sé an conradh le haghaidh an triall in Árann amach mar thairiscint amháin nach bhféadfaí a fháil mura mbeadh an conraitheoir sásta seirbhís a thabhairt don trí oileán? Má chuir sé sin isteach mar fhoráil, nach gciallódh sin nach bhféadfadh an farantóir conradh a fháil d’Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr gan phraghas a thabhairt don trí oileán in éineacht? Sin mar a bhíodh sé á dhéanamh agam agus chinntigh sin go mbeadh margadh maith le fáil.

Bréagnaíonn an tAire Stáit é féin nuair a deir sé sa fhreagra nach ndéanfaidh sé aon difríocht an dtiocfadh an tairiscint níos túisce mar ag deireadh an fhreagra deir sé gur féidir tuilleadh plé a dhéanamh agus más gá is féidir dul chun tairisceana arís. An fhadhb atá ann ná nach ndéanfar roimh mhaidin amárach é mar tá an conradh thuas anocht. Dá mba rud é go raibh a fhios ag an Aire Stáit é seo ceithre mhí ó shin, d’fhéadfaí é sin a dhéanamh agus dul ar an margadh arís agus fós bheadh seirbhís ann.

Deir an tAire Stáit go bhfuil an tseirbhís go hÁrainn inmharthanach gan aon fhóirdheontas. Cad é an costas do na hoileánaigh? Tá an tAire Stáit ag gearradh €15 fillte ar oileánaigh le hais an €8 a bhíodh ann. Tá aon rud inmharthanach má chuirtear an táille suas sách-ard mar níl aon bhealach isteach nó amach as na hoileáin ach dul ar an mbád. An smaoineamh atá taobh thiar d’fhóirdheontais le haghaidh iompair phoiblí ná go ndéanfar cinnte go bhfuil an tseirbhís ar fáil ar phraghas réasúnach. Níl an praghas seo réasúnach, agus tá a fhios ag na hoifigigh atá in éineacht leis an Aire Stáit an obair a rinne muid ag cruthú go bhfuil costas maireachtála níos airde ar na hoileáin ná mar atá ar an mhórthír. Tá an tAire Stáit ag cur leis seo agus ag déanamh faillí iomlán ina chuid dualgas mar Aire Stáit ar a bhfuil freagracht na n-oileán.

Ní aontaím ar chor ar bith leis an Teachta faoi sin. Bhí sé ina Aire fada go leor agus tá a fhios agam agus léiríonn na comhaid atá fágtha sa Roinn go raibh conarthaí á síniú ag an uair dheiridh.

We have gone way over time on this matter.

Bhí na tairiscintí le bheith istigh ar an 21 Nollaig, sé seachtain beagnach, sula raibh an conradh rite. Táim cinnte nach bhfuil an Teachta ag súil go mbeidh achainí den teorainn chun é seo a shocrú. Tá €5.9 milliún chun é a dhéanamh.

Maidir le tairiscint a chur amach leis an trí oileán le chéile, tuigim go raibh sé mar sin ag uair amháin, go raibh an trí oileán le chéile, go raibh pacáiste ann. Níl a fhios agam an raibh an Teachta féin sa Roinn ag an am nó Aire éigin eile nuair a cuireadh deireadh leis an nós sin agus nuair a briseadh síos na hoileáin agus sin an fáth go bhfuil Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr leo féin agus oileán Árann leis féin.

Nílimid ag déanamh neamhaird do na hoileán. Tá an t-airgead céanna ar fáil i mbliana agus a bhí ar fáil anuraidh - €5.9 milliún. Tá mé ag déanamh mo dhíchill na seirbhísí a choinneáil chomh maith agus is féidir, na seirbhísí aeir san áireamh. Tá trí eitilt in aghaidh an lae ag dul isteach go hÁrainn, dhá eitilt in aghaidh an lae ag dul go hInis Meáin, dhá eitilt in aghaidh an lae ag dul go hInis Oírr. Tá fonn orm mar Aire Stáit na seirbhísí cuimsitheacha sin a choinneáil. Mar a dúirt mé, áfach, caithfidh mé gníomhú taobh istigh de na laincisí airgid atá orm. Tá an oiread eolais ar an Teachta ar na laincisí airgid sin. An fáth go bhfuil na laincisí airgid orm, bhí sé féin ansin nuair a cruthaíodh an fhadhb. Tá súil agam go dtuigeann sé sin.

Mar fhocal scoir, tá an doras oscailte agus tá oifigigh sa Roinn ag a bhfuil taithí, eolas agus cleachtadh acu ag plé leis na cúrsaí seo ar son na n-oileánach. Tá an Roinn ar fáil agus déanfaimid ár ndícheall chomh réasúnta agus is féidir an fhadhb seo a réiteach. Ní féidir linn míorúilt a dhéanamh. Caithfimid uilig a bheith réasúnta ar an dá thaobh. Tá dá thaobh ar gach scéal.

Syrian Conflict

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to speak on this vitally important matter. Deputy Smith and I have raised the conflict in Syria on numerous occasions. I sometimes think I am wasting my breath but at least all I can be accused of in that regard is being consistent in trying to keep the matter on the agenda.

Earlier this week a further 65 to 70 people were slaughtered in Aleppo. This is just another grisly detail on a long list of horrific examples of the genocide being carried out there. Among those slaughtered in Aleppo were teenage boys. This seems to be a theme in Syria at present. It appears that children are being used as weapons of war in a conflict that is occurring in what was once a very highly developed society. Not only are brutal killings taking place but there appears to be a kind of perversion involved whereby the Syrian authorities seek to demonstrate, to both the outside world and their own people, just how cruel they can really be.

We have all heard the reports from the UN with regard to the horrors to which children have been subjected. I will not go into the details here but suffice it to say that all of the mechanisms of a normal society are being eroded on a daily basis in Syria. To date, almost 1,500 children have been killed in the conflict there. If action is not taken, there will be nothing left to fight for and the entire country will have been destroyed. What makes this matter more infuriating is that the world powers seem to have washed their hands of this conflict and are paying mere lip service in respect of the massacres which are taking place.

The UN-Arab League mediator, Lakhdar Brahimi, has outlined the crisis in no uncertain terms to the United Nations Security Council. The latter must take responsibility for its part in this crisis. It is the Security Council's intransigence on the question of taking action in respect of the conflict that has exacerbated matters. Mr. Brahimi stated in recent days that "unprecedented levels of horror" have been perpetrated by both sides in the conflict and that "atrocious crimes" have been committed. He has been highly critical of the Security Council and has told it to get its house in order. In addition, he has stated that only the international community can now help. Was it not for the purpose of dealing with crises of this precise type that the United Nations was established in the first instance? Mr. Brahimi has urged those at the UN to set aside their differences, break the deadlock and take action to prevent the meltdown of Syrian society. The situation in Syria at present is quite similar to that which obtained in the Balkans in the 1990s.

There is now a real danger that surrounding nations will use Syria as a battlefield. Earlier today, there were reports of Israeli attacks on a Syrian truck convoy. Mr. Brahimi has stated that it will take real leadership on the part of world powers to broker a solution. He has warned that there will be dire consequences, not just for Syria but also for the entire Middle East region, if such a solution is not found.

I agree with the points made by Deputy Ann Phelan. The escalating conflict in Syria has cost more than 60,000 lives, has driven hundreds of thousands of people out of both their homes and their country and has destroyed the livelihoods of innumerable citizens. I understand that 2 million Syrians have been displaced internally and a further 2 million require urgent humanitarian assistance. These figures alone attest to the awfulness of this situation.

The appalling human cost of the conflict has horrified Irish people in recent months. We have witnessed barbaric scenes of bombings and executions on our television screens. It is all too clear that the regime of President Assad has lost its legitimacy and is utterly bankrupt. The exploitation of the conflict as a proxy war by Saudi Arabia and Iran in their efforts to control the Middle East, and, at a higher level, the utter intransigence of certain UN Security Council powers - namely, Russia and China - in the context of ensuring that this problem will be addressed present a serious diplomatic difficulty.

There are three issues that need to be addressed from an Irish perspective. The first of these is the provision of immediate aid to address the humanitarian and refugee crisis in surrounding countries. I warmly welcome the Government's pledge of almost €5 million, in addition to the provision of humanitarian aid, to address the deepening crisis. It is vital that we continue to ensure our aid is targeted at those areas where it is most needed. The second issue that must be addressed relates to the need to identify the support we can provide to the rebel groups. This should be done at EU level. I appreciate that we must tread carefully in pledging support to unknown rebel groups. The Arab Spring has riled the Middle East and we have witnessed the whiplash of armed extremism in Libya. The third issue relates to the diplomatic efforts at UN level to arrive at a feasible plan to bring the civil war in Syria to a close and ensure the transition of power to democratic institutions. The European Union should use its clout to pressurise Russia and China to abandon their zero-sum approach to the awful conflict. There is too much at stake in respect of this extremely serious issue for anyone to be allowed to play politics with it.

I thank Deputies Ann Phelan and Smith for raising this issue. I agree that this is one of the most serious issues facing the entire world at present. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Tánaiste and I have all been trying to engage in respect of it as much as possible. I am pleased to be able to respond to this debate, having only just returned to Ireland a few hours ago following my attendance at the major UN pledging conference on Syria which took place in Kuwait yesterday.

The human cost of the brutal civil war now being waged in Syria has reached truly alarming proportions. More than 60,000 have been killed in 22 months, 2 million people have been internally displaced, a further 2 million are in need of urgent assistance and more than 700,000 refugees have fled to neighbouring countries. Given that 200,000 of the latter fled in the past two months, there is no doubt that there has been a rapid escalation in the number of people fleeing the country.

The sheer savagery and inhumanity of the conflict has been well underlined in recent days, with the latest reported massacre in Aleppo.

Against this background, it is at least encouraging to note the generosity and also what Secretary General Ban Ki-moon described as the global solidarity, which was evident at yesterday's meeting where more than $1.5 billion, in excess of what the UN requested, was pledged to meet the urgent humanitarian requirements over the next six months. Ireland was pleased to join in this effort with the Government pledging an additional €4.7 million towards the humanitarian response in Syria and neighbouring countries. This brings our total contribution of humanitarian aid to Syria over the past year to more than €7.1 million. Ireland and its EU partners have been to the forefront in responding to the humanitarian crisis. Additional assistance announced yesterday by the European Commission and EU member states combined came to $370 million, bringing total EU assistance to date to some $830 million.

There is no doubt that the overall situation on the ground is deteriorating and the dangers which the conflict in Syria poses to the wider region are becoming greater. The UN and Arab League Joint Special Representative, Lakhdar Brahimi, was characteristically candid when briefing the UN Security Council on Tuesday. He underlined the clear threat of Syria being progressively destroyed bit by bit unless the violence ends and some form of political process is initiated. The Tánaiste is attending the Foreign Affairs Council in Brussels today. It will also address the situation and consider what further steps the EU can take to promote a political settlement.

The reality remains, however, that the only viable prospect of achieving a ceasefire and initiating some form of political process leading to transition, lies in the efforts of the special representative Mr. Brahimi. It remains incumbent on all sides within Syria and indeed all countries concerned with this conflict to extend the fullest co-operation and support to Mr. Brahimi's efforts. Any other option, including further militarisation or external intervention, will simply spell total disaster for the country, at a human cost which cannot be contemplated.

The brutal violence and repression which the Syrian regime has inflicted upon its own people must end. We must also continue to encourage the Syrian National Coalition to develop its structures and to co-operate fully with Mr. Brahimi's efforts. The Tánaiste has already extended an invitation to the leader of the SNC, Dr. al-Khatib, to visit Dublin for discussions and to hear their plans for promoting a political settlement within Syria.

The conflict in Syria undoubtedly represents the most serious crisis confronting the international community at present. Ireland will continue to work with EU and international partners. We will use our influence during our current EU Presidency to ensure efforts to end the violence and to promote a political settlement receive all possible support.

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. Ireland is dealing with the humanitarian issue for which I congratulate the Minister of State. I thank him for the increased aid to Syria. The second issue is the lack of action by the international powers. I am reminded of the saying, that the world is a dangerous place, not because of the evil that men do but because of those who stand idly by and do nothing.

I thank the Minister of State for participating in the conference yesterday and for attending today to reply on this very important question. I trust the Tánaiste will ensure at the EU Foreign Affairs Council meeting today that the EU sanctions will at least be extended beyond the end of March. It is hoped that additional sanctions will be applied. The EU high representative, Baroness Ashton, chairs the Council of Foreign Ministers. It is very important that the Tánaiste, the Minister of State and the Government ensure that some better effort is made at UN level to bring about the necessary political support. It is not acceptable that the two major powers can be so intransigent when faced with the appalling loss of human life in Syria. I hope the Government will use every available forum during the Irish Presidency to ensure that this issue is given the attention it deserves in an effort to prevent the wholesale loss of life.

I thank the Deputies for those remarks. Yesterday I also met with the director general of UNICEF, the director general of the UN World Food Programme and with Commissioner Georgieva, to discuss how aid can be delivered and the role of non-governmental organisations. It is now easier to get essential aid into Syria. I also met Dr. al-Khatib at the Friends of Syria conference in December. He is the leader of the Syrian National Coalition. The Tánaiste and I invited him to Dublin to discuss these issues during the Irish Presidency. We hope to receive a positive response in this regard. As the Deputies said, the UN Security Council resolution is extremely important. That is the context in which the Arab League and the United Nations are moving forward with Mr. Brahimi. It is imperative for the members of the Security Council to recognise the seriousness of the situation and to cease the stand-off. I have no doubt that the sanctions will remain while the current situation continues.

Health Services Staff Issues

When I was a Member of the other House I had cause to lament when a Minister for the relevant Department was not in attendance to deal with my Adjournment matters. I have no argument with the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, but there are enough Ministers of State in the Department of Health to allow one of them to deal with the response to my matter which is particularly important.

I refer to the provision of psychological services across the country, in particular, the hiring practices used by the HSE for the recruitment of psychologists. The Minister of State may have to correct me but since 2009 the HSE has imposed a block on the hiring of counselling and educational psychologists to fill positions which are filled only by clinical psychologists. This is despite the fact that the same primary degree qualification applies to all and despite the fact that everywhere in the western world both counselling and educational psychologists are hired to fill vacancies in health services. The policy of the HSE is strange given that so many psychology posts remain unfilled across the country, not least in my own part of the world. Approximately 20 posts remain unfilled. This means that the HSE is recruiting specifically clinical psychologists from other jurisdictions - from the UK in particular - while qualified psychologists with an educational or counselling background have to leave here and are hired by the NHS to do the same job in the health service of our nearest neighbour. In earlier business today the House discussed reform of the health service and new governance for the HSE. This very strange practice of recruitment is like no other in any country that I know of, and should be discontinued.

Sixty counselling psychologists passed a HSE interview between 2009 and 2012 and have been placed on a panel for employment, yet because of the bar that exists, they cannot be hired. Crazily, despite the fact that students on placement from college who are not fully qualified either as educational or counselling psychologists can work alongside students of clinical psychology, only clinical psychologists can be hired by the HSE because of the existing practice in the Republic. Effectively, all counselling psychologists must travel to other jurisdictions to get work. Many are working in the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, and in Australia, Canada and other countries. While this is happening, we are advertising overseas. We cannot get enough graduates from overseas to fill the vacancies that exist here.

Only approximately 70 clinical psychologists qualify annually in Ireland. Last year, there were more than 90 vacancies to be filled. As a consequence, approximately 20 vacancies remain unfilled despite the fact that the HSE held a further recruitment drive in the United Kingdom in November. We have been unable to get more than two suitably qualified people to fill the vacancies. I ask that the Department and HSE change the recruitment policy with regard to psychologists.

I thank the Deputy for raising this Topical Issue. I apologise on behalf of the Minister, who cannot be present.

Psychologists perform a wide variety of roles across the health and social care services and provide a very important service to service users across a wide spectrum of need. A working group was, therefore, established within the HSE to agree appropriate eligibility criteria for the recruitment of both staff and senior psychologists to best meet the needs of service users across all areas of the public health and social care services. This working group involved principal psychologists from all parts of the HSE together with service managers and it was supported by human resource professionals. The group examined the broad spectrum of clients that the HSE serves and made a determination on which type of qualification would be appropriate for different service areas.

The working group decided that educational psychologists would be appropriate to work only in disability services for children. Their qualifications equip them to deal with a broad spectrum of clients within that group. They are qualified to provide services to children of all ages with an intellectual, physical or sensory disability. The HSE has established on the basis of the service requirements of different client groups and areas across the health service that the qualification of counselling psychologist equips the holder with the necessary skills to provide services to adults in the primary care and community care settings. The working group determined that clinical psychologists were eligible to work with all client groups across the health service.

There has been recruitment for clinical psychology posts in the mental health service recently. These posts are restricted to clinical psychologists in line with the recommendations of A Vision for Change. A Vision for Change sets out in great detail the role of clinical psychologist within the community mental health teams which deal with a wide range of mental health problems among adults, children and adolescents. They also form an integral part of specialist mental health teams. Since the publication of A Vision for Change in 2006, the mental health service has invested an additional €1 million per annum and dedicated 50 whole-time equivalent posts to clinical psychology training at four third-level colleges, namely, TCD, UCD, NUIG and the University of Limerick.

Thirty-four clinical psychologists graduated in 2011. The graduates are being employed to complete the community mental health teams as set out in the HSE's national service plan. In 2012, the €35 million dedicated from within the programme for Government commitment has been allocated to employ 72 clinical psychologists for general adult mental health teams, with a further 23 clinical psychologists for child and adolescent teams. Detailed plans are currently being prepared to determine how the additional €35 million for community-based mental health services will be utilised in 2013. It is expected that further clinical psychology posts will be required in 2013, as indicated in the policy in A Vision for Change.

The Minister is committed to the ongoing development, subject to overall resource constraints, of mental health services and to the recruitment of the most appropriate mix of health professionals to meet the varied needs of service users across the health and personal social services.

I agree with large parts of the Minister of State's response, including in regard to the need to retain the €35 million provided under the programme for Government for mental health services in general. Perhaps I would be able to get more information on the decision of the working group if a Minister from the Department of Health were present. Why has the HSE working group on the hiring of psychologists adopted a completely different policy from the one that exists in health services everywhere else in Europe and farther afield? There are 20 psychologist vacancies, although the 60 counselling psychologists on a panel will never be allowed to fill them as a result of the criteria drawn up by the HSE working group. No similar criteria exist anywhere else. The Minister of State's answer is wholly inadequate from that perspective.

I have dealt with an individual who was hired by the HSE as a counselling psychologist in the area of child protection prior to 2009. Now he can never even apply for vacancies that arise in that area because of the mistaken guidelines published by the HSE's working group. Vacancies remain around the country and much-needed psychological services are not provided, yet qualified psychologists must travel around the world to get work. We must advertise positions in other jurisdictions because we maintain a strict interpretation resulting in the decision that only clinical psychologists can be hired. I really do not understand how we can justify this position.

I thank the Deputy for those additional remarks. The HSE working group comprises principal psychologists, service managers and human resource professionals. They concluded that educational psychologists would be able to operate solely in the area in which they have expertise. They agreed the same for counselling psychologists but stated clinical psychologists could work with client groups across the health service. Since the publication of the report, the Department has put in place the necessary training and educational measures for clinical psychologists to implement the policy in A Vision for Change. All the decisions that have been taken were in the context of the implementation of the current programme for Government.

Forestry Sector

The Government's plan to sell the rights to fell and sell trees in State-owned forests puts at risk 100 years of public forestry in the country. The industry is worth €2.2 billion per year. It was worth €286 million per year in exports in 2011 and it employs 12,000 people. Despite its being an Irish success story, there appears to be a drive and determination to sell off a vital public resource that is generating income for the State.

Has an economic impact assessment been done of the sell-off of Coillte trees? If not, why not? The international experience is that where privatisation has occurred in countries like New Zealand and states in Australia the impact has been very negative for the public and has resulted in more private ownership, less focus on public interest and a lack of accountability in developing their public forestry.

It is a disaster, not just for this generation of Irish citizens but for future generations, that we would sell off the harvesting rights of our trees. It makes us an outlier in Europe. Not even in the darkest days of Thatcher's Britain was she able to sell off that country's forests yet the Government proposal is to accept the troika agreement and not challenge it. There is no legal obligation on this country to sell off the harvesting rights of our forests. What economic assessment has been done on jobs, the economy and tourism? I urge the Minister to take this opportunity to say he will reconsider and reject this ludicrous proposal.

The plan to sell off the harvesting rights of 1.2 million acres of State forestry, the people's forests, to pay off the debts of bankers is an act of national sabotage and betrayal. Public ownership of the forests and the trees that stand on them is the birthright of Irish citizens.

I do not know if the word "treason" has its roots in the word "trees" but to sell off the State forestry is an act of treason. What the Minister is planning to do has been done by no other country in Europe. Only one country, Sweden, sold off some of its state forestry but a few years later quickly took it back into 100% public ownership. When it was proposed they would sell off the state forests in Cameron's Britain there was a public outcry and following widespread public consultation the plans were abandoned.

There has been no public consultation here. That is not surprising because if there was a public consultation with the stakeholders and the people who care about our forests they would tell the Minister that privatisation puts at risk thousands of jobs, both direct and indirect, in the forestry sector, that all the valuations done so far for the State forestry lands are gross undervaluations, which suggest we will be selling off the harvesting rights for approximately €500 or less per acre when agricultural land here sells for approximately €2,000 or €3,000 per acre, and that even under Coillte forest assets are being sold to prop up the hole in the pension fund. How much more of our national forests assets will we see stripped if private for profit and commercial interests take over the State forestry?

Consultation would also tell the Minister that because forests take 30 to 40 years to rotate inter-generational stable stewardship is needed of the sort that we cannot have when we are talking about speculators and profiteers running the forests. They will tell him that in New Zealand, where privatisation has taken place, there have been major problems with public access, job losses and outflow of profits from the country.

There is simply no justification to sell our forests, and the Minister should abandon this plan immediately. At the very least he should have a public consultation where the facts of Irish forestry and what the impact of its sale would mean for this country could be discussed.

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter and convey the apologies of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to the House. He is involved in European Union commitments.

The examination of the sale of Coillte does not have anything to do with a drive for privatisation, the influence of Margaret Thatcher or anything to do with ideology. The assets disposal programme is a requirement of the troika which is funding the State and the Government decided that a concession for the harvesting rights to Coillte's forests would be examined. Further to that Government decision the National Treasury Management Agency, through its NewERA Unit, has been actively engaged with Coillte, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in recent months to examine the financial and other implications of a potential transaction.

Substantial work has been undertaken to date on the identification of the forestry assets involved, the determination of their value and the consideration of a number of issues associated with the proposed sale of the harvesting rights. Some of the issues identified to date include public access to recreational land, the possible impact on the timber industry, environmental and social impacts and consequential implications for the company and levels of employment. These issues, and the measures, if necessary, to address them, require detailed consideration.

The Government is aware of the concerns expressed by a number of bodies and individuals regarding the proposed sale. Such bodies include the Timber Council of Ireland, the Coillte trade unions and environmental, sporting and recreational bodies. These concerns focus on the possible impact on the timber industry, employment levels, access to Coillte recreational forests and long-term consequences for the management of the forests, all of which form part of the ongoing consideration.

The Government is very much aware of the important contribution Coillte makes in regard to the supply of timber to the sawmills, in the provision of forest recreational activities and valuable tourism attractions and in the maintenance of the State's forest estate.

The comprehensive examination process carried out to date has included engagement with potential acquirers of harvesting rights when requested by them in accordance with the published Government protocol. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and NewERA have also met with interested stakeholders to discuss their position on the sale of the harvesting rights.

As part of that, representatives of the two Departments and NewERA met with the Coillte group of unions last Friday where they outlined the process involved and received the view of those unions and copies of the report commissioned on the unions' behalf by Peter Bacon. It was agreed that the Bacon report titled Assessment of the Consequences of the proposed Sale of Coillte's Timber Harvesting Rights - 10 January 2013 would be analysed and a further meeting would be held. NewERA also met with representatives of the Irish Timber Council on 4 July last year to discuss the implications of any sale of Coillte felling rights on the Irish saw-milling sector.

The input of the various bodies such as the joint press statement of the environmental and sporting bodies, the document by the Irish Timber Council outlining its views on the proposal, the Save our Forests document published by IMPACT'S Coillte branch in November, and the Bacon report commissioned by IMPACT is appreciated as they make a valuable contribution to the consideration process.

I must interrupt the Minister.

I will read the last sentence, which is relevant, before the Deputies respond.

The outcome of the overall analysis will be considered by the Government upon its conclusion. The Deputies will be aware that this entire process is a very complex one and it is not possible at this stage to pre-empt the outcome of the analysis and its possible consequences for the future of Coillte. As the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has stressed in his replies to parliamentary questions, the Government will proceed with caution in regard to this matter and no final decision has been taken as yet.

I thank the Minister for his response. Coillte is a profitable, successful company. If the decision to sell off a company that is an Irish success story which is integral to this island's economic development is not an ideological decision, I do not what is because if we were serious we would develop Coillte as a publicly owned company relying on its successful past and the resources available to us as a country. It is untrue to say that this country is required to sell off the public harvesting rights on our forests.

That is not a truthful statement. It is a public policy choice. Like me, the Minister knows this is the wrong move for this country.

First, the idea we might be required to dispose of State assets because the troika tells us to do so makes the whole matter obscene and outrageous. That we might sell off our State forestry - our national heritage - to pay off the debts of gamblers is nothing short of obscene. The Government is not specifically required to sell off Coillte. It could find this money elsewhere by taxing the wealthy or those earning over €100,000. There are many other options but selling off the State forestry is an outrage.

Instead, this is an area in which we should be investing, expanding and developing to create employment. The Minister knows, as well as anyone who knows about forestry, jobs can be created just by planting more trees. Doing so would also create a sink for carbon which helps tackle climate change. It would also have a knock-on effect for other industries, services and rural areas. It is absolute madness to divest ourselves of State forestry to speculators such as Helvetica Wealth. They see our public forestry as nothing more than an opportunity to turn a quick buck, not giving a damn about public access, future investment, employment or the State's best interests.

The Minister must abandon these plans and we must have a serious discussion with all stakeholders about how we can develop our forestry to the benefit of all citizens and create much badly needed jobs.

I have some sympathy with the Deputies' proposition that State forests should be retained in public ownership, but not for the overly emotive reasons they advanced. I am interested in exploring the possibilities of synergies between Coillte and Bord na Móna in creating a bioenergy company, for example. It has nothing to do, however, with the fact that Coillte is profitable. Bord Gáis Éireann's energy division is profitable and will be put on the market as a result of the requirements of the programme with the troika which are very explicit that there must be an asset disposal programme. If the Deputies want to exclude the harvesting rights in Coillte, perhaps then they will list for me which companies they would like to see included in the asset disposal programme.

It is a fact that such a programme is required by the only lender that the State has. It is not a question of ideology, privatisation or lust on someone's part in government to want to sell the harvesting rights. It is an attempt to comply with strictures laid down by the troika. We have made some progress in respect of these because 50% of the proceeds of whatever is sold will be made available for re-investment and job creation.

We could give them Anglo Irish Bank and all its debts.

The problem is that neither of the Deputies accepts that the country was bankrupted under the previous Government and what-----

That is not correct.

Who said it is not correct?

I said that is not correct. Of course, we accept the country is bankrupt.

The Deputy accepts then that the country is bankrupt.

Yes, but we should not sell off valuable resources.

We are agreed at least that the country was bankrupted and the Government is trying to bring it back to economic health. I was talking to my Greek counterpart recently about the scale of the disposal of state assets imposed on Greece. She is of the opinion that they do not have the assets stipulated in their programme unless they sell islands.

There is not any acceptance on the part of both Deputies of the state of the disaster into which we have been plunged. I do not disagree with them on the principle involved. I quoted the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which they chose to ignore, when I stated this examination is going on, the reports will be adduced and no decision has been taken yet.

Can we have public hearings on the matter?

I hope the two Deputies will jump up and down with the same vigour if it turns out that they are not to be sold.

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