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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Feb 2013

Vol. 791 No. 1

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Diplomatic Representation Expenditure

Gerry Adams

Question:

1. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach when he next plans to meet political leaders in Northern Ireland. [53789/12]

Gerry Adams

Question:

2. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach his plans to meet the First Minister Peter Robinson or Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness. [53790/12]

Gerry Adams

Question:

3. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent attendance at the British-Irish Council in Cardiff on 26 November 2012. [53847/12]

Micheál Martin

Question:

4. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has discussed a reduction in rate of the corporation tax in Northern Ireland with Prime Minister Cameron recently; his views on the matter; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55217/12]

Micheál Martin

Question:

5. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach when the next North-South Ministerial Council is to take place; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2309/13]

Micheál Martin

Question:

6. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has spoken to Prime Minister Cameron recently; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2318/13]

Gerry Adams

Question:

7. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if he has been in contact with the British Prime Minister in relation to the implementation of outstanding elements of the Good Friday Agreement. [2327/13]

Joe Higgins

Question:

8. Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on any recent meetings with the political leaders in Northern Ireland. [2343/13]

Joe Higgins

Question:

9. Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the British Irish Council in Cardiff on 26 November. [2344/13]

Joe Higgins

Question:

10. Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on any recent meetings with British Prime Minister, David Cameron. [2345/13]

Micheál Martin

Question:

11. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has been asked to meet Mr. William Frazer recently; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2394/13]

Micheál Martin

Question:

12. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he intends to visit Belfast in the near future; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2395/13]

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

13. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when he will next meet Northern Ireland leaders in view of recent events; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2760/13]

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

14. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he has recently discussed corporation tax in Northern Ireland with Prime Minister Cameron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2762/13]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 14, inclusive, together.

I spoke with British Prime Minister Cameron last week in advance of his speech on the EU and UK relations. I also saw him and spoke to him briefly at the World Economic Forum in Davos. Outside of the European Council meetings, I expect to meet bilaterally with him, probably in March, for the first of our annual summits to review progress on the relationship between Britain and Ireland following the joint statement that we concluded together last March.

Although I welcome the fact that the level of public disorder has significantly diminished over the past number of days, this does nothing to lessen the urgent requirement for political solutions to the current situation. I remain deeply concerned at the street violence in parts of Belfast since late last year, the attacks on members of the PSNI, including the attempted murder of police officers, and the widespread attempts to intimidate public representatives and their families. The Tánaiste spoke in detail about the situation during a topical debate three weeks ago in the House and I know it is one that concerns many Deputies.

On Friday, 18 January, I met David Ford, MLA, Northern Ireland Minister for Justice and leader of the Alliance Party, some of whose members were targeted by loyalist groups in the aftermath of the decision by Belfast City Council. Let me emphasise that security and co-operation on the island has never been stronger. The Minister was in Dublin at our invitation to attend an EU informal Council of Ministers meeting on justice and home affairs, which illustrates the strength of our relationship with the Northern Ireland Executive. Other Ministers have been invited to further EU informal meetings and Presidency events. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister last Thursday at a PEACE programme conference in Brussels hosted by European Commissioner Johannes Hahn. I also plan to meet the SDLP next week.

We will continue to work closely with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the British Government and with all political representatives to help identify ways to address not just the current unrest but its underlying causes. In this regard the Tánaiste is in regular contact with political leaders in the North and travelled to Belfast on Thursday, 17 January, to meet the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. The meeting provided an opportunity to discuss the flag protests and violence in Belfast and to review developments towards calming the situation. The Tánaiste made clear that the Government will provide all support necessary for Executive Ministers and local politicians to help find solutions to the current crisis and to work closely together to identify ways to address not just the current crisis but its underlying causes.

I attended the 19th summit meeting of the British-Irish Council, BIC, in Cardiff on 26 November last, which was chaired by the First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. The council discussed the current economic situation in the different member Administrations, with a particular focus on the important role of investment in capital infrastructure to support recovery and growth. The council also noted the latest figures on youth unemployment and requested all BIC work sectors to consider the issue of generating employment opportunities for young people in their work programmes where appropriate. The next BIC summit takes place in Derry on 21 June. The next North-South Ministerial Council plenary session, which I will host, will take place in Dublin on 5 July, after our EU Presidency has concluded.

I have not been asked recently to meet Mr. William Frazer, although I did meet him as part of a delegation led by Northern Minister Danny Kennedy, MLA, and the Kingsmill families when I met them in Dublin in September.

I have not discussed the reduction in the rate of corporation tax with Prime Minister Cameron. This is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the British Treasury.

We met representatives of the Human Rights Consortium in the North to discuss the outstanding elements of the Good Friday Agreement, in particular, the need for a bill of rights for the North. The consortium is very concerned that the British Government is deliberately long-fingering this issue because of Tory objections to the idea of a bill of rights and because elements of political Unionism are not in favour of a bill of rights for the North. As the Taoiseach is aware, the British Government used the work of the Commission on a Bill of Rights in the UK as an excuse for not delivering the bill of rights for the North that was agreed and outlined in the Good Friday Agreement. The final report of the British commission, which was released in December, accepts the importance of a bill of rights to the peace process. It states the commission does "not wish to interfere in that process in any way nor for any of the conclusions that we reach to be interpreted or used in such a way as to interfere in, or delay, the Northern Ireland Bill of Rights process."

When the leader of my party, Deputy Gerry Adams, raised this issue with the Taoiseach on the Order of Business on 19 December, the Taoiseach indicated he would read the report and gave a commitment to follow up on the matter with the Northern Executive and British authorities. Has the Taoiseach read the report? Did the Government raise the issue with the British in recent meetings? Will the Taoiseach outline how he intends to secure progress on a bill of rights for the North? As he will be aware, this is an ongoing issue and a cause of frustration for those who seek progressive change in the North.

In respect of the protests related to the union flag controversy and unrest on the streets of Belfast, it is important to repeat, as the Taoiseach acknowledged, that the decision on the flying of the union flag was democratically taken by the elected representatives of Belfast. He will also be aware from his visits to the North that Belfast is very much a changed city. It is, if one likes, no longer a haven of Unionist strength but very much a shared city. The manner in which flags and emblems are to be treated under the equality provisions of the Good Friday Agreement is to give life and affirmation to the notion of shared spaces and nowhere more so than in the city of Belfast.

I share the concern expressed by the Taoiseach for public representatives and refer specifically to Naomi Long, MP, of the Alliance Party, as well as others who have been threatened. I also share his concern for PSNI officers. There is, however, one particular community in the east of Belfast that is being placed under particular pressure during the illegal loyalist demonstrations and parades. I visited the Short Strand a couple of weeks ago and sat in homes, many belonging to elderly people, which are being routinely stoned and petrol bombed at a time when peace and reconciliation are the order of the day. I note the Tánaiste was in Belfast recently but did not, unfortunately, visit the Short Strand. It was not lost on the residents of the area that the Secretary of State and many other people paid visits to the area, while they still await a visit from a member of the Dublin Government. Although officials have visited, it is important that the Tánaiste or Taoiseach or, ideally, both of them, pay a visit to the Short Strand.

Deputies will notice that we have broken with a long tradition of answering 100 questions together and have grouped them in a way that will allow for better questioning, if one likes, from Opposition Deputies and, I hope, more appropriate and succinct replies from the Government. We have tried to group together questions on Northern Ireland, the British Prime Minister, European issues and so forth, which was not the case previously, as far as I can recall. Deputies were anxious that we do this.

In so far as a bill of rights is concerned, the Government is a co-guarantor, with the British Government, in respect of the Good Friday Agreement and we would like the agreement to be implemented in full, including its provisions on a bill of rights. As the Deputy correctly noted, the Westminster Commission on a Bill of Rights, which was established to report on a United Kingdom wide bill of rights, stated it did not want to interfere in the process in Northern Ireland. While I do not know what are the differences of opinion among the parties in Northern Ireland, the Government is anxious to move ahead with the provision of a bill of rights. However, some discussion is needed on the issue with the parties and I will do this. I do not have any difficulty visiting places in Belfast such as that to which the Deputy referred.

The Government will continue to work with the other co-guarantor - the British Government - and the Northern Ireland Executive. I would like to hear from the parties in Northern Ireland as to what are their views about moving on with this issue. Deputy McDonald does not want to impose her views on parties that have been democratically elected to the Executive. As a part of the Good Friday Agreement, of which the Government is a co-guarantor, we would like a bill of rights to be implemented.

On the issue of flags, it would be simplistic to state that the level of violence was consequent on the democratic decision taken by Belfast City Council on the flags issue. Dealing with the past and other current contentious issues, which are, if one likes, manifestations of the same legacy, presents challenges for us all. This issue must be at the core of the work of Northern Ireland leaders and the Executive and Assembly for some time. The Government will engage with all of them in as positive and constructive a manner as possible. Just this week, I raised the issue of the peace dividend at European level and I hope to do so again during the forthcoming discussions on the multi-annual financial framework, which are to be held on Thursday and Friday. The First and Deputy First Ministers were in Brussels last week where they had a good engagement with personnel in the different parties and sectors on maintaining a peace dividend in the European Union budget.

It is clear that the parties in Northern Ireland need to resolve a number of issues around flags and symbols in a respectful and agreed fashion as we work towards having a society that understands that more issues unite us than divide us. As we have all stated previously, it is important to have recognition of difference and tolerance for traditions.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I have been saying for well over 12 months that there has been a lack of proactivity by both Governments, particularly the Irish Government, in respect of events in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement should be more than just the absence of violence. What we are beginning to witness are underlying factors coming to the boil, as has been the case in the type of outbreak we are having. While I acknowledge that various factors are involved, addressing health and educational inequalities in the North will be fundamental to moving on. I do not believe these issues have been adequately addressed by all concerned in recent years. One in two children in west Belfast is born into poverty and the area has one of the highest rates of poverty in this country or Britain. Early school-leaving rates are high in loyalist areas where school completion is not as strong as elsewhere.

These issues create medium to long-term problems on both sides of the community divide.

A far greater scale of input is required in terms of anti-sectarian initiatives, the reconciliation projects and building cross-community relationships. During the past decade or so, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has consistently provided money to community and sporting groups that have as part of their remits bridging community divides and working in interface areas.

The Northern Ireland Executive and both Governments need to work together to develop a more comprehensive plan, somewhat on the scale of our RAPID initiative and the drugs task force initiative that predated it. The plan should require all agencies of the state to integrate and co-ordinate their work and resources to reduce educational disadvantage and health inequalities. This is a painstaking, but more effective way of dealing with the emerging issues.

For many onlookers, it is frustrating to see more parading, flags and emblems. Is this the sum total of what politics is about in the North? Parading has been an issue for some time. We believed that it was being resolved and that, following agreement on the devolution of justice powers, the main players would fundamentally move forward. Alas, this has not occurred. One almost feels that it sometimes suits the Executive's key players to play to their electoral bases as opposed to stepping beyond those to forge a shared agenda and a shared future within the North.

The Short Strand's residents have a strong case as regards protection from attacks and illegal marching. The PSNI must be robust, objective and fair in protecting residents from such attacks. However, this cuts both ways. Political parties or groups cannot dictate to the PSNI who should or should not be arrested. Doing so would send wrong signals to the other side. When the PSNI recently arrested an individual, Sinn Féin picketed its headquarters. What signal does this send to communities when one is also asking them to support the PSNI in its endeavours to find the murderers of prison officer Black, for example? Within the same week, Sinn Féin protested because it did not like the PSNI's action.

The reform of policing under the Patten report and so on has been an essential element to emerge from the peace process. The Governments, the Executive and the parties of the Executive must be careful to protect it. Criticisms can be made, but there are forums for doing so.

I tabled five questions. I appreciate that the Taoiseach has answered 14 questions together as opposed to the potential 38 questions that I feared he would lump in altogether. Whereas the bulk relate to the North, I beg the Ceann Comhairle's indulgence to allow me to revert on the question relating to Prime Minister David Cameron, which was not tabled in the context of the North.

There is another question on that.

On the broader issue of health inequalities and educational disadvantage, the time has come for the Irish and British Governments, with the Northern Ireland Executive, to develop jointly a comprehensive plan of action similar to initiatives undertaken in the Republic to deal with these specific issues. I would appreciate the Taoiseach's opinions on this matter. May I revert on questions relating to David Cameron?

Deputy Martin raised quite a number of issues. I do not think that there is any major disagreement about anything that he has said. Clearly, in vulnerable communities the issues of inequality, opportunity and education are absolutely critical, no more so than has been demonstrated in so many places around the world.

In the last 12 months, there have been 50 different meetings between myself, the Tánaiste and different Ministers and our counterparts in Northern Ireland about issues arising there. That has been more than ever since the establishment of the North-South Ministerial Council. We have had some success and progress following the signing of the strategic partnership agreement with Prime Minister Cameron last year, which I hope to build on when I have the opportunity to speak to him again in that context early in March.

I have to say that I was astonished. As Deputy Martin well knows, in this House we have no hierarchy of victims. Yet I noticed that, in whatever context, Deputy McDonald's party, Sinn Féin, seems to have a difference of view between a member of the Garda Síochána and a member of the PSNI-----

-----the RUC-----

-----being murdered. As I will be at pains to explain to the survivors of Kingsmill, Fermanagh and Ballymurphy when I meet them, we do not have any hierarchy when somebody is shot, blown up or killed. There is no discrimination in the sense of loss for whoever that might apply to.

It is necessary as well that we show and have a respectful approach to commemorations. The Tánaiste launched this initiative on the decade of commemorations when he invited First Minister Robinson last year to speak at Iveagh House. I had the privilege of attending the remembrance ceremony in Enniskillen in November. I have also met recently with other political representatives who represent people, like Northern Ireland Executive members Danny Kennedy and Arlene Foster. I have referred to that in the House before.

Deputy Martin quite rightly referred to the community groups. This is important. I see a value in engagement with vulnerable communities and cross-peace line initiatives. The reconciliation and anti-sectarianism funds awarded grants to 130 organisations. They are important.

A great deal of practical assistance and co-operation is going on between the Department of Health, different agencies and the Department of Education and Skills. There has been quite extensive engagement between the Ministers, Deputies Reilly and Quinn, and their counterparts on this.

It is hoped we will secure expenditure for the peace initiative if a budget is agreed on Thursday or Friday and have it in place for the next seven years. We should, as is happening with a number of the groups in Northern Ireland, particularly in Belfast areas, look at what has been successful in other vulnerable communities to see what might give the best impact. I saw some of them when I had the opportunity to be up there on the last occasion. They do practical work with young boys and young girls in a sense of understanding, that they might be different in many ways in terms of their upbringing and beliefs than other boys and girls across the line, but that there is no reason for them not to grow up understanding that and yet having an understanding of the environment and the areas in which they grow up in Northern Ireland.

There is a great deal of co-operation between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána. I hope that that bears fruit in the sense of apprehending those who murdered Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe recently.

From that point of view and in so far as the peace process is concerned, economic, political and security co-operation are very strong and at a very high level. There is absolutely no room for any complacency, as the Deputy well knows, nor will there be. I intend to travel up there in the not too distant future. I am waiting to meet with the people from Ballymurphy. They have actually requested a meeting with officials again before I do that. We will have that opportunity. We would like, as a co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, to see if we can follow it through to its implementation, but clearly it is not only in our hands.

The fact that the protests over the restrictions on the flying of the Union Jack at Belfast City Hall have receded, at least for the moment, should not prevent an analysis of what transpired or lessons from being learned. The Taoiseach referred to the protests and used the words “underlying causes”, which suggest that while there were reactionary loyalist hard-liners stirring up sectarian divisions many young, working-class Protestants were involved and there was support initially from a wider strata of the Protestant population. Is the real underlying cause that the peace process has not delivered a transformation of life for working class people whether Protestant or Catholic? We have a considerable economic crisis and suffering as a result of that among working class people right across the spectrum.

Is the institutionalisation of sectarian division that is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement not glaringly obvious in the flags issue? When Sinn Féin and the SDLP raised the flag issue, there was no groundswell of pressure coming from within the Catholic community, yet the Unionist bloc embraced with gusto what it saw as the challenge from an opposite perspective and went with 40,000 leaflets to stir it up among the Protestant people. What we had was establishment politicians on both sides in the Executive and the Assembly stirring up divisive issues on a sectarian basis and cynically diverting attention from their failure to address the real issues confronting working class people, namely, unemployment, the housing crisis, poverty and the grim future for young people which affects both Protestants and Catholics. It also diverts from the Welfare Reform Bill – a vicious attack on social welfare recipients - which was not vetoed by a single party in the Executive when it was passed last autumn. Is it not reckless for political parties to manipulate issues in this way and to stir up sectarian divisions, which is the reality, to divert attention from their own failures and shortcomings?

Equally, is it not in the interests of working class people and working class youths – Protestant and Catholic – not to be divided but to come together to address the real issue, but also to oppose the austerity that is decimating society in Northern Ireland, as the Government's austerity is decimating society in the Republic by continuing such a programme? Working-class people should come together across the divide to address these issues with radical solutions rather than be divided by manipulating politicians.

I agree that there should be a convergence of view and a sharing of the objective of growing the economy of Northern Ireland in order that jobs could be created and that the inherent, underlying contributory causes of what has happened could be addressed. As Deputy Martin pointed out, a number of successful programmes have operated in this jurisdiction in difficult areas with assistance from Europe. What Deputy Higgins said is true. It should not be any factor involving political parties for political reasons. Politics is always about people and the focus must be on making changes that impact to the benefit of people's lives.

The protests by loyalists at the removal of the Union Jack began on 3 December when Belfast City Council voted that the flag would fly from City Hall on designated days throughout the year, and it continued through January except for a lull over the Christmas period. While the majority of demonstrations passed off without incident, some resulted in serious rioting and approximately 130 police officers suffered injuries. The impact, which went around the world instantly, did damage community relations. It severely curtailed economic activity in the pre-Christmas period. It conveyed a deeply negative impression of Northern Ireland to international audiences, which I very much regret. That countered the positive campaigns to promote tourism and to attract investment.

I understand the cost of policing the protests was of the order of £7 million and the loss of trade is estimated to have cost £15 million. Other areas will have gained as a consequence of that unfortunate position. The Belfast Telegraph has launched a "Backing Belfast" campaign to attract business to the city. Reports indicate that restaurants and businesses were returning to normal levels of activity over the previous weekend. I support that strongly.

A total of 130 police were injured up to 30 January. It was indicated that 158 arrests took place - 50 of them were of people aged under 18 and the youngest was aged 11 - and 128 people were charged. I do not want a society where 11 year olds are being arrested for activities on the streets. That means investment in communities and even greater efforts to engage with communities, young people and their parents. The arrests that have taken place involve people who blocked roads. It is clear that the PSNI has identified participants through the use of CCTV.

There were accusations that loyalist paramilitary organisations orchestrated the protests, but the protests were portrayed as being spontaneous and were organised on social media platforms such as Facebook. Some criticism was levelled at the PSNI for not taking action against those using social media to encourage people to break the law and for posting sectarian remarks. There has been one arrest for remarks made on a website associated with the flag protest. A man was arrested on 2 February in north Belfast over comments he made on social media. He was subsequently released on bail.

The most significant development in the reduction in rioting was the intervention of loyalist leaders in east Belfast two weeks ago, calling for an end to the violence, although not to the protests. Following the statement, as Deputy Higgins is aware, 5,000 leaflets were delivered to homes in the east Belfast area calling on those involved in current rioting to stop. That was endorsed by church leaders, community representatives and paramilitary organisations including the UVF, the UDA and the Red Hand Commando.

Members referred to the Short Strand, which emerged as a flash-point for protestors returning to east Belfast from City Hall. Serious incidents occurred there on Saturday, 12 January. A nationalist resident was granted leave to seek a judicial review over claims that the police had allowed illegal marches every week from east Belfast to the city centre. The resident has brought a challenge against the PSNI and the Secretary of State, Ms Villiers. The Parades Commission is seeking to clarify the legal options on flag protest marches to Belfast City Hall. It indicated in a statement that it had been notified of 14 flag protest parades but not about any of the Saturday protests in Belfast. The commission said the situation raised questions about implementing the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998.

The first meeting of the new Unionist Forum, which was organised before Christmas, was proposed by the DUP and the UUP, and took place on 10 January. The forum set up a task force to engage with the wider community and also set up eight working groups on subjects across the Unionist spectrum. The Sinn Féin Party called for an all-party, cross-community response to the protest at the violence. The Tánaiste spoke to the Secretary of State, Ms Villiers, on the matter on 17 January. The quad met at principal levels only, including the Minister of State, Mr. Penning. The Tánaiste and the Secretary of State emphasised the need for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to work together to address the current crisis and building a shared society.

A group called the Ulster People's Forum was set up at a meeting on 3 January to co-ordinate the protests. This group is seen as the alternative to the DUP-UUP forum. A contributory factor to the falling support for the protests is the obvious apparent disunity among those organisers.

I share Deputy Higgins's view that what is needed is real involvement at community level in order that young people can understand there is a better way than having to organise, or be involved in, riotous behaviour, which does no good for anybody and which does down the national and international perception of the people of Northern Ireland and their efforts, and they are many, to build an inclusive and a shared society where differences are understood and at the same time where the objectives of greater economic development for everybody can be achieved. In so far as we can assist in this, the Government and its agencies will work with our counterparts in Northern Ireland for the development of those kinds of programmes that have been proven to be beneficial in very sensitive areas not only in this country but in other places abroad.

It is fine to say we are concerned about the underlying causes and the problems faced by young people and less well-off communities in the North but fine words and noble aspirations must be matched with deeds and a serious analysis of why young working class people in the North, particularly in Protestant areas although there are very significant problems for young working class, less well-off people right across the North, feel so alienated and that alienation manifests itself in the way that it did in the explosion of sectarian violence. There will have to be a bit of soul searching by the political establishment in the North and by the political establishment generally as to why that happened.

The Taoiseach said that the protests were largely spontaneous but there was some element of stoking it up by loyalist parliamentary groups initially. I suggest there was another significant factor, which the Taoiseach has not acknowledged but he should acknowledge, and our comrades in Sinn Féin should also acknowledge this. The Deputy First Minister's party, the DUP, and the Official Unionist Party put 40,000 leaflets around east Belfast and Protestant areas, stoking up the issue. This was a major contributory factor to an explosion of violence and anger among young people.

I certainly do not believe it was a coincidence that was done at the same time when, for example, the Minister, Nelson McCausland, announced the plan to effectively privatise the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. That is pretty telling. If we remember back to the history of the most recent phase of violence in the late 1960s and early 1970s in the North, how did it begin? It began on the issue of housing, housing allocation and discrimination in the allocation of insufficient housing for the least well-off. Housing remains a massive problem in the North and now the Northern Ireland Executive is planning to privatise social housing, to outsource it, not in a dissimilar fashion to the way the Government is doing here with leases to property developers, except in the North it will be to housing associations and rents are likely to increase. In addition, there is a massive 25% youth unemployment and cuts have been imposed in hospital services and so on. These factors and deliberate stoking up of these issues along tribal lines helped focus youth alienation and anger felt by the less well-off sectors of society in the North along sectarian lines.

In addition, the structures of the Northern Ireland political set up are a form of institutionalised sectarianism which guarantee that politics tends to be expressed in a sectarian fashion. The arrangements and quota systems in terms of balancing Nationalist and Unionist in the North are almost exactly the same as those that were set up by the French in the Lebanon in 1920s which led to decades of sectarian conflict there-----

The Deputy might return to what we are discussing.

-----and we are seeing the same process in the North. Should we not point to those factors, that there is a problem with institutionalised sectarianism and that some of the so-called respectable political forces in the North encouraged and stoked up sectarianism and tribalism in order to deflect attention away from cuts and austerity they are imposing on the people of the North?

I do not think that the 11 year old who was arrested was seriously concerned about the privatisation of houses.

There were many young people involved.

There is an indication that there is a period of relative calmness there now following the riots and the rioting that took place before and after Christmas and there has been the involvement of the political leaders, the community activists and those who were on the fringes of organising demonstrations which in a number of cases turned into riots where serious injuries occurred.

What about the DUP's leaflets?

We need more involvement here so that there is not just a political response but an understanding by the community that it is in everybody's interests to work for the development of those communities. This Government in making its case to Europe for continued assistance for areas like this will continue to work with the Executive and the agencies at cross-Border level with particular reference, as I have often said in this House, to vulnerable communities where this kind of approach and assistance needs to be given.

It is the case that there is a period of relative calm there now and no time should be lost or no complacency shown in redoubling efforts to work with communities in their own interests. I find there is a great sense among numbers of people to work at that because they see the value of it, and we should never lose sight of that. Nobody wants to see riots anywhere. Obviously, this involves the entire community, political leaders, organisations, communities and community leaders continuously striving to build on what has been a fragile peace. As the Deputy well knows, during the past 30 years many people have given extraordinary amounts of time to work within their communities to build that and we have to ensure that is continued and resourced where that can be done.

I have talked to numbers of people in those communities where they can see the benefit and the results in the young people because they see the benefit of education, of opportunity, of involvement and of taking a different road. There should not be a situation where 11 year olds are out on riots in the streets of Belfast. We have to focus on the future of community involvement with state support to ensure those communities can develop and thrive.

Certainly nobody wants to see any 11 year old or children of any age involved in riots and getting arrested. Without trying to take for a second from the very deep social problems in many areas across the Six Counties, statistics reflect that while the indices of poverty and deprivation are found in loyalist areas, they are predominantly within what would be termed Nationalist or republican areas.

Poverty is poverty, want is want and there is no doubt we need a strategy to deal with that. However, the issue of the flags exposed in quite a dramatic way a failure within political unionism - the DUP has been mentioned - to really grasp the notion of equality. The flags issue did not just come out of nowhere on 3 December. These are issues that we have debated long and hard, they are sensitive but we have an agreed approach now and it is about parity of esteem and sharing.
Undoubtedly the DUP and other forces within unionism, for their own ends, stoked up the kind of reaction that was seen on the ground. It would be entirely wrong for it to be left unchallenged in this Dáil that somehow there was a stoking up on both sides of the community divide. That did not happen. People in the North, of the Unionist tradition have a perfect entitlement and right that their emblems and flag are respected. I say that out loud because it is entirely reasonable. Equally, people who are not of a Unionist persuasion, Nationalists and republicans in the city of Belfast, in their city, have a right to have a sense of a shared space as well. The proposal coming from the council was modest and in fact is reflected in other areas, some of them Unionist, across the six counties, with the flying of the Union flag on designated days. We agreed to that compromise because it was the right thing to do.
I wish to encourage the Taoiseach again on the bill of rights. I know he wants to hear other people's views and opinions but, in his own words, he is the "co-guarantor" of the Good Friday Agreement. The bill of rights is not an optional extra. Like the concept of equality, a bill of rights will serve the rights, entitlements and opportunities of all.
Finally, I wish to say in response to one of the Taoiseach's remarks that I would acknowledge absolutely the trauma for any family and every family, irrespective of who they were, arising from the loss of life in the course of the conflict, be they a police officer, a soldier, an IRA volunteer, a UVF volunteer. Whoever they were, the loss of human life and the scale of it was an immense tragedy and failure of politics. However, I would remind the Taoiseach that the RUC was disbanded and it was disbanded for a good reason. In fact, this State and the Good Friday Agreement to which we are signatories and to which the Government is a signatory, recognised that fact and was the vehicle for disbanding it. Can I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should not insult An Garda Síochána by saying that it is an equivalent of the RUC. It simply was not and that is not to take for a moment from the human tragedy of any loss of life. The RUC was disbanded, discredited, swept away and a new policing dispensation, on which we are still working, was introduced. The Taoiseach knows that as well as I do so I ask him not to use that matter to have a cheap jibe at me. If he is going to have a go at me, he should make it more substantive.

Thank you Deputy McDonald. Let us stick to Question Time.

I think for the Deputy to try to turn on that spit is a bit Irish. Deputy McDonald is the deputy leader of a party which has a view that there was a difference between the murder of a Garda and the murder of an RUC officer-----

The RUC were combatants in a conflict.

-----and given her association with that kind of comment, I cannot understand from what perspective she comes. We had long and very hard discussions here about the death of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe in Adare and we had Sinn Féin, at the time, making the case for holding up the peace agreement until the killers of Detective Garda McCabe were released. Deputy McDonald cannot have it both ways. She should not try to turn the argument on its head to say that An Garda Síochána was in any way like the RUC.

It was not. That is exactly my point. No more than the Taoiseach would advocate on behalf of the Black and Tans, I trust.

Deputy McDonald, there are other Deputies waiting to ask questions.

There is no difference in the hierarchy of victims. The Deputy made a comment a number of weeks ago which I do not understand. To try to equate the argument she is now making is nonsensical. The Deputy should be forthright enough to say that the death of anybody, the murder of anybody, the blowing up of anybody, the assassination of anybody deprives families of loved ones ---

The Deputy has a difference of opinion about the uniform they wear-----

I have said that but I made the clear distinction between the RUC and An Garda Síochána.

As far as the bill of rights is concerned, the main parties in the North have got to agree, themselves, on it. We will work with them and co-operate with them but it is not a case of imposing a bill of rights on the parties or the people of Northern Ireland. We would like to see this happen and to see the Good Friday Agreement being implemented in full.

As the Deputy rightly pointed out, the Government is a co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement with the British Government. I hope that it can be progressed and that those discussions and talks take place to make this become a reality in due course.

In response to Deputy Boyd Barrett regarding the period of relative calm in Belfast now following the protests by groups regarding the flags, I hope that matter can be put to rest. I hope that the situation can be improved and that we can continue to be involved for the benefit of those communities in growing an understanding that there is a better way than what has happened previously.

I accept the Taoiseach's proposition that there is no hierarchy of victims. Will the Taoiseach confirm that it is his view that the murder of RUC officers was completely unacceptable and not justified? I say that because we need honesty and transparency in the current era.

Was it justified when it was RIC men?

I have met former members of Sinn Féin, some of whom were combatants, who would acknowledge that what went on was wrong, in hindsight, and who would say that the greatest problem that the Sinn Féin leadership has is that it will not acknowledge that what went on was wrong, for too long. Many RUC officers were murdered in appalling circumstances, in very cowardly circumstances-----

As were many civilians.

-----in terms of booby trap bombs, in terms of no capacity to defend themselves and so forth. If we are to have any chance of reconciliation into the future, that acknowledgement needs to happen. The idea that, as happened last week, one would try to distinguish between the murder of a garda on this island and the murder of an RUC person on this island was incredible and basically, it was wrong. We are on an island. We want to try to develop a shared future. Part of that is the need to own up and be honest that the war of terror was, without question, not justified. The murder of RUC officers was not justified and Deputy McDonald's public statement last week to the effect that it was different because it was "in the course of the conflict" is an unacceptable position to adopt. It can also be provocative, in the context of what we have been discussing today, about rioting and the outbursts from different parts of the community.

It has been put to us that we should join the call for a Border poll.

This is the leader from rebel Cork.

Sinn Féin cannot, on the one hand, justify the murder of RUC officers and ---

Did the Deputy say RIC officers?

-----in the same week-----

Please allow the Deputy, without interruption.

Sorry, I thought he said RIC officers. I thought he was getting mixed up there.

-----ask for a Border poll. If we want unity between people on the island-----

Are Deputy Martin's questions to the Taoiseach or to me?

I have spoken to people who are relatives of RUC officers and they do not make the distinction between the uniforms, or their uncles and aunts.

That is also true of Northern Nationalists and well the Deputy knows it.

I must remind the Deputies that this is Question Time and I ask them to put questions to the Taoiseach.

In terms of the Taoiseach's meetings with Prime Minister Cameron, I am surprised that he did not discuss corporation tax with him, which is an important issue for the island of Ireland. Overall, it would enhance the attractiveness of the island for inward investment. Some people might have concerns about North or South of the Border but I believe, overall, it could be a positive in terms of the island and the marketing of the island from a foreign direct investment perspective.

When he met Prime Minister Cameron, did the Taoiseach raise the issue of the Prime Minister's proposed referendum on exiting the European Union? I warned the Taoiseach some time ago that Prime Minister Cameron would soon start talking about exiting the European Union and that has now come to pass. He is going to put the issue, an in-or-out question, to the British people. That brings to mind the need for this country to adopt a position on the British position on the European Union. It is not enough for the Government to say it is going to be damaging and so forth. We know that. What is our national position on the demands of the British Government regarding the European Union? What preparations are we making in case they go ahead with this vote in a number of years?

Are we preparing an Irish position on the future of the European Union itself?

Finally, I appreciate the efforts the Taoiseach is making with regard to peace money for special support programmes for the North. It would be helpful if the First Minister and Deputy First Minister adopted, for once, a pro-European stance in this regard. I remember negotiations some years ago when the advisers both to the DUP and Sinn Féin were delighted by the failure of the first Lisbon treaty referendum. It was the one thing they agreed on, despite the enormous sums of money that went to Northern Ireland.

The reality is that there are two communities in the North and each feels various forms of alienation and the effects of the crisis. It is, however, wrong to give the impression that the predominance of suffering and poverty is on one side. For reasons of history and geography, and because of residues of sectarian discrimination, there are differences between the two communities. However, 19% of the Protestant population and 26% of the Catholic population live in poverty. In the years up to 2010, some 28% of working age Protestants were not in paid work, compared with 35% of Catholics. This is common misery. Neither community is privileged.

It is shameful that the establishment politicians, by whom I mean Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the DUP and UUP, have no address for these crises but to implement austerity dictated by the Liberal and Conservative Government and divert attention from it by dividing people further. Working class people need representation by an independent party that will challenge and resolve the crisis of this system, whether the capitalist austerity is North or South, and have a real transformation for their people. That is what is needed.

This series of questions has reopened the historical fault lines in Irish politics on the issue of the North. Notwithstanding those fault lines, the Taoiseach did not respond to the point that someone who is supposed to be on the respectable establishment wing of politics in the North, Peter Robinson's party and the Official Unionist Party, put out 40,000 leaflets stoking this crisis up and then panicked when chaos resulted with a damaging impact on business and tried to close it down again. They were responsible for whipping it up in the first place and they should be held accountable for that.

Deputy Boyd Barrett, will you please put your questions and not make statements?

Why does the Taoiseach not acknowledge that and address the issue in discussions on how we learn the lessons of this? I do not put the comrades of Sinn Féin in the same category with regard to doing that sort of thing. I am not suggesting they are doing that, but where the underlying problems are unemployment, youth alienation, housing, health and all the stuff that is being done to working class people in the North, is it a useful response to talk about parity of esteem between communities or about flags and emblems? I do not think it is. It fuels sectarianism. We need to fight tooth and nail against the austerity measures that are causing that level of alienation. There is not parity of esteem, but parity of lack of esteem-----

Deputy, please put your question.

-----and competition between communities over who takes the biggest burden of cuts. That is a recipe for constant flare-ups in sectarian violence.

I remind Deputies that this is Question Time. It is easy to forget that at times. These are all statements. In future, I will pull people up. Other Deputies are prevented from asking questions because we are struggling to get supplementaries from the four Deputies who have tabled questions.

There should be no difference between the murder of one police officer in uniform and another. It is astonishing that Sinn Féin would still hold that view. When Queen Elizabeth spoke in Dublin Castle, she said history teaches us many lessons and that, in hindsight, some things might have been done differently and some things might not have been done at all. We must learn the lessons of history and move on to the future.

I discussed the question of corporate tax rates with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the context of the island of Ireland. That is a matter for the United Kingdom Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. They will hold discussions in their own time. I am not sure when they might make that decision. In making such a decision, the government might take into account the fact that there is to be a referendum in Scotland in 2014.

The Prime Minister rang me the day before he made his speech on Europe in London and I also spoke to him briefly in Davos, where he was making a speech to an audience. I made it clear to him that we have a very close relationship with Britain. It is our largest trading partner, there has been considerable movement over and back for many years and we want that to continue. I made the point that Ireland voted 60:40 in favour of the fiscal stability treaty and of our link to the euro and the European Union with a clear path to the future. I also made the point that Britain has always been a driver of the Single Market and that the opportunity now presents itself, even during our Presidency, to get a mandate to start discussions on free trade between the EU and the US over the next number of years with potential to grow economies by at least 2% with 2 million jobs resulting in Europe, as an assessment, and to conclude trade agreements with Canada and countries in the Far East. It is important to have Great Britain involved in these developments and this is recognised by all other European leaders. I put those points very strongly to the Prime Minister. He also set out his stall.

Holding the Presidency, we have made the point that the leaders of Europe need to make decisions and build a sense of trust among ourselves about what we want to do. It is unacceptable that 26 million people are unemployed in the European Union. This must be addressed by implementing political decisions. Decisions are being implemented on the digital market, data protection and content, trade opportunities and opportunities to grow our economy even further, particularly our exports and services which recent figures show are going in the right direction.

The British Prime Minister speaks for the British Government, even though his junior partners have a different attitude to Europe.

Something like here.

I am not sure what the future holds. As far as Ireland is concerned, we want to keep movement in trade, investment and opportunities between here and Britain alive. I was glad to see the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources recently signed the memorandum of understanding on our capacity to sell energy directly to the British market. Europe without Britain would be very much weaker and no one wants that. I hope the time ahead will allow the European Union to address many of its own challenges by political decision and grow that union. It has 500 million people and enormous potential. Provided a decision is made this week to have a multiannual financial framework, MFF, I hope we can run an effective Presidency in the interests of the European Union that will also have benefits for our own country.

Written Answers follow Adjournment.
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