Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 2013

Vol. 793 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government is in negotiations to extend the Croke Park agreement. I am sure the Taoiseach will agree with me that a fair and just outcome to the talks is essential. There is growing concern that the new agreement will target and impose a disproportionate burden on front-line workers who are rostered to work on a 24/7 basis. Approximately 80,000 workers are involved. They include gardaí, nurses, prison officers and emergency medical technicians - people who work through the night to protect their communities and streets and provide emergency and essential services. This is done in a 24-hour basis for 365 days per year.

The proposals at the talks suggest the workers face a pay cut of 10% plus, including through changes in their premium pay. In plain euro, this means a Garda with ten years' service will lose €200 per month, which is €50 per week. This is a very significant hit. A nurse on an average salary of €40,000 per year will face a cut of €320 per month. These amounts are excessive. One group will be taking an excessive hit by comparison with any another.

Coupled with this, morale is very low in the services. It is very low in the Garda, for example, and is at a tipping point. It is not I who is saying this; rather, the gardaí are saying it to every Deputy who bothers to meet them to talk. We are in dangerous territory here and the Taoiseach needs to be aware of that.

The health sector depends on 24/7 rosters, frameworks and structures. It cannot operate without such a framework. There are alternatives that should be pursued. A cut of €320 per month is too high for an individual, as is a cut of €200 per month. I appeal to the Taoiseach and those engaged in the talks not to sacrifice the health sector or the health service workers to get a deal over the line. Will the Taoiseach ensure that the outcome of the talks will not be the targeting of, or imposition of a disproportionate burden on those on the front line who are rostered on a 24/7 basis?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform was mandated by the Government to become involved in the process of negotiating the new Croke Park arrangement. It is a wage negotiation process that is currently under way. It is wrong of anybody to assume he can state what the outcome of the negotiations will be. What the Government wants is a fair and balanced outcome across the board in respect of its target for a reduction in pay this year, leading to an extra saving of €1 billion by 2015. This is a challenging position for every public servant. I regard every public servant as being a front-line person in his own way.

I have seen the various statements from the representatives of the trade unions, and the Deputy will have seen the statements of trade unions in regard to front-line workers. The Deputy should understand, however, that the negotiations are ongoing and in a critical and intensive stage. Everybody who has a concern or issue he wants to have discussed and negotiated should get back in where the discussions actually take place, that is, around the table. It is not correct for anybody to state now what the outcome of the negotiations will be.

Reference was made to gardaí yesterday during Question Time. We have absolute respect for the work that gardaí must do. I know from having spoken to gardaí in various stations that morale is very low. This is partly attributable to the fact that, in the years 2009, 2010 and 2011, there were 200 Garda vehicles purchased. In 2012, some 213 new vehicles were purchased. This year, there is an allocation of €5 million, and I expect 250 new vehicles to be purchased. The gardaí – the officers – do need the best facilities to do their job. The pay discussions are ongoing and they involve all the public servants. I regard the job they do as absolutely critical to the provision of the best public services for our people, including taxpayers.

Rather than attempt to predetermine the outcome of the negotiations, I suggest that everybody focus on what is at stake. We must make reductions to get to the required point on the path to which we are committed, and that involves lowering our deficit to 3% by 2015. This is challenging for all public servants. The place to work it out is at the table where discussion takes place.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The figures that have been presented to me are from people who are at the table.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Bits of them.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am not making them up. It is the people at the table who are providing the figures. This is what has been tabled.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Government is already breaching the current Croke Park agreement.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would Members mind allowing the Deputy to make his point without adding to it?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is people on the front line who believe they are being targeted and that the hit they will suffer will be disproportionate.

All public servants are not the same.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputies please allow Deputy Martin to contribute? He has one minute in which to make his case.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Consider those who must drive through the night in pursuit of dangerous criminals, for example. As the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and Equality and I know, this happens up and down and across the Border on many occasions in the middle of the night, and the officers in question put their lives at risk. They are in a different category. Let us not pretend they are not and that they are somehow similar to others. They are not, and that is why there was premium pay for people in such circumstances from day one. What about officers on the streets at 3 a.m. trying to deal with antisocial behaviour? They are different.

Consider the role of paramedics and emergency medical technicians who must perform emergency services at 2 a.m. or 6 a.m. That has to be done. They are not all the same and we need to acknowledge that. That is the fundamental point we need to acknowledge. I do not buy the divide and conquer approach and the attempt to single out and target emergency workers for what is an unfair and a disproportionate hit on their incomes. That is the core point here.

To date in this crisis, no individual has been asked to take a hit of €320 per month. Every individual, irrespective of where he or she is on the scale, has obligations, mortgages and so on. On previous occasions, it was across the board and no one was asked to take a hit of €320 per month or, for that matter, €200 per month. That is the point I am making.

The Minister for Justice and Equality is very clear that there is not low morale in the Garda but I am glad the Taoiseach acknowledged that there is. We are just listening to people on the ground and I put it to the Taoiseach that there is a problem with emergency workers. I am not making this up. I have been meeting all of them in the context of these talks.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to respect the person asking the question and the person replying. Neither of them needs help from the backbenches or anywhere else. Could we have silence, please? I call the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I am not at all taken by the mock anger of Deputy Martin on this matter. Everything he says these days goes back on what he signed off on. There is actually €90 million more available for the Garda Síochána because the Minister for Justice and Equality was able to recalibrate what the Government, of which he was a member, signed off on for the Garda Síochána for 2012 to 2014, inclusive. The reason we have to make all of these challenging decisions is because of the mess created by the Government of which Deputy Martin was a member.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach has choices.

The Taoiseach

I respect the work every public servant does and this is not an easy position for a great number of people, but I trust those negotiating these talks to sit around the table, at which these wage discussions are taking place, and to work out a fair and balanced situation across the board so that we will not have a situation where anyone feels he or she has been deliberately discriminated against or targeted in these discussions.

Deputy Martin knows one cannot judge the outcome of any of these discussions by taking bits and pieces of comments, allegations and speculation and by throwing figures around here and there. These are intensive and serious wage negotiations and they are being conducted by professional people between the unions and management. I hope everybody who has an issue, a concern or an anxiety will sit down at that table and negotiate, in a professional way, a fair and balanced outcome for everybody, so that we can get on with dealing with the problem in our country - a €12 billion deficit this year, a €9 billion deficit in 2014 and a €5 billion deficit in 2015. That is the unholy mess we must clean up. We are set on this course and that is what we will do. I would urge everybody involved in these talks to sit down professionally and work things out in a way that we can have a future for all those coming behind us.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should settle down. A cup of coffee might help. I call Deputy Adams.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest Deputies go for a cup of coffee while we get on with the business.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yesterday, the women of the Magdalen laundries heard the words they needed to hear. It is now crucial they are properly compensated for what was done to them. Tá a fhios ag an Taoiseach gur tús maith, leath na hoibre. Chuir na mná fáilte roimh an óráid an-mhaith agus na focail an-fhlaithiúil a labhair sé inné. Today, I want to tease out with the Taoiseach some of the details of Mr. Justice Quirke's terms of reference. An ex gratia scheme is to be established which is essentially a payment without an admission of liability. Is this not at odds with the sentiments of the Taoiseach's remarks last night and with the McAleese report, both of which accepted that the State is liable for what happened to these women? Will Mr. Justice Quirke be given statutory powers? Will there be an independent appeals mechanism for the women? I note the terms of reference include the laundry at Stanhope Street but there is no reference to Summerhill in Wexford. Will Summerhill be included as well?

No one wants runaway legal fees but I presume some consideration will be given to allowing some form of legal representation to those women who feel they may need it, such as women who want to remain anonymous. The advocacy groups only represent a minority of women. As the Taoiseach knows, the vast majority of the women do not want to be known. I say all of this in a good spirit. Again I commend the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Government for their remarks last night.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Adams for his remarks on this matter. One of the really strong points coming from the groups of Magdalen women was that they wanted the State to apologise but they also wanted a system which was effective, clear, fair, non-adversarial and non-legalistic. The terms of reference presented by the Minister for Justice and Equality to Cabinet, and adopted by it for Mr. Justice Quirke, are to work out a scheme and a strategy that will give recognition to those principles. That is why the judge has been asked to report back within three months and to put in place a set of recommendations for Government to consider in regard to the fund, how it should be dispensed and taking into account those principles of not being adversarial and not being a gravy train for those who might assume so from a legalistic or an administrative point of view. That was the very strong wish expressed by the women who were in the Magdalen laundries and is what we want to try to achieve.

The president of the Law Reform Commission, Mr. Justice Quirke, is an exceptional choice to do this and I am quite prepared to let him start his work with his team to address those principles so that we can deal with this as comprehensively, as sensitively and as compassionately as possible, taking into account the fact some women have never told their story and some want complete anonymity. We do not want this bandied about in a way that would have a further devastating impact on them.

We have taken step one and the process is now in train for persons to contact the Department of Justice and Equality. On the instructions of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Mr. Justice Quirke will start his work in devising a set of recommendations for Government to deal with and, as I said, taking those principles into account. As this work proceeds, we will take the advice, as the case may be, of Members of the House, who were very supportive yesterday.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I thank the Taoiseach. I accept that Mr. Justice Quirke is a very good person to head up this but he will be bound by his terms of reference and will not be able to act outside them, so all of the questions I have raised are very pertinent and, indeed, some of them have been raised by advocacy groups for the Magdalen women. We need to ensure no one is unjustly excluded from compensation.

A number of us brought in the women sufferers of symphysiotomy and we gave them a standing ovation. Until last night, that was the best occasion I spent in this Dáil. The symphysiotomy sufferers are still waiting for justice. The survivors of the Bethany Home were failed by the State but are not part of this scheme. Will the Government take up their cases as a matter of urgency? The Taoiseach did not answer the question on Summerhill.

I trust that we will have the opportunity to tease out the detail of the terms of reference. The terms of reference refer to "women who are now resident in Britain" but do not say anything about women who are resident in the United States of America and elsewhere. I welcome the Tánaiste's remarks on the question of whether the religious orders will be asked to contribute to compensating the women. This is an attempt to get prompt, transparent delivery on what the Taoiseach said yesterday evening. I stress that this is a non-party political issue. The questions I ask are very valid and we need answers to them.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice and Equality is considering the question of Bethany Home which was not a laundry but dealt with the health and welfare of young women and their children. The terms of reference set out for Mr. Justice Quirke are designed to give expression to simplicity, effectiveness, compassion and comprehensive dealings. The report, as Deputy Gerry Adams is aware, is very complex and covers a large range of individual circumstances and stories. That is why the women in particular want this done in a non-adversarial, non-tortuous and non-litigious way. It is for that reason that Mr. Justice Quirke will look at the question of identifying the criteria and factors to be taken into account to facilitate the early establishment and effective conduct of a scheme for the benefit of those women who were admitted to and worked in the Magdalen and Stanhope Street laundries. Deputy Gerry Adams will also be aware that because of the exceptional work done by the Step by Step centre in Britain with substantial numbers of people who were in Magdalen laundries, the Government has decided to allocate €250,000 to the organisation once the relevant paperwork on its charitable status is dealt with.

Mr. Justice Quirke has also been asked to examine how best to operate a fund of a sum sufficient to meet the requirements he sets out. That will take into account the engagement he has with the Magdalen people over the next 12 weeks. He will also look at the supports some of these people need, be it counselling, medical cards, mental health services and other welfare provision. The Minister for Social Protection made the point that we must make sure there is a disregard in place so that any allocation does not impact on a person's social welfare payments. The same should apply in the case of those who are in England because if one makes a direct payment, it will have an impact on the social welfare payments they receive.

The women I met strongly insisted that they did not want a repeat of the redress board process. Under no circumstances do they want that. What we want in these terms of reference is to be simple, effective, non-adversarial, non-litigious and, at the same time, as fair and balanced as possible.

Deputy Gerry Adams

On Summerhill, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Summerhill is an issue the Government can consider in due course. I know it is the institution in County Wexford. It is a matter for Cabinet to consider in due course.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is not excluded.

The Taoiseach

As the work proceeds, every Member will want it to be done in the best way possible. That is where we should be.

Deputy John Halligan

I take the opportunity to compliment the Taoiseach on the remarks he made in the presence of the Magdalen women here yesterday. Every word he said was sincere. I pay tribute to the bravery of the women who came to the House.

Last week, the Children's Rights Alliance report card for 2013 awarded Ireland a grade "A" for strengthening children's constitutional rights but an "F" on the levels of child poverty in the State. That grade reflects the devastating impact which successive austerity budgets have had on children. Current proposals to target child benefit as a mechanism for the redistribution of wealth will have a serious and disproportionate effect on mothers and children. Any attack on child benefit is an attack on women. It is as simple as that. Does the Taoiseach agree that mothers have a special position in our Constitution? Credit must be paid to the women who in the 1970s lobbied successfully for child benefit to be paid to mothers rather than to fathers. It was for a very good reason. Does the Taoiseach agree that in following that proposal, the State recognises the work of women in the home and that we should uphold that recognition by leaving universal child benefit untouched?

Before I ask a number of questions, I note that some startling statistics have been released over the past number of months. Women are the main victims of domestic violence and domestic violence cuts across all classes and levels of income. Workers in domestic violence shelters say that child benefit is often the only source of income to which a woman can turn to escape a violent household. They will also tell one that some men use money as a way to exert pressure and control in a relationship, that many women are denied access to family finances and that child benefit is often the only money they get to see.

Does the Taoiseach agree that universal child benefit is a financial recognition of Article 41.2 of the Constitution which recognises the valuable contribution to the State a woman makes through her work in the home? Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to the hundreds of thousands of women who are beginning to worry early in the year and before we even talk about next year's budget that they face a cut in child benefit? I disagree fundamentally with any cut to child benefit for any woman, irrespective of household income, on the basis of the statistic that many women, even those in households into which a reasonable salary comes, rely on child benefit only. I ask the Taoiseach to give a commitment to the women of Ireland that no matter what happens over the next year child benefit will not be interfered with.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy John Halligan for his comments and questions. The advisory group on tax and social welfare was established to deal with a number of specific issues relating to the interaction of the tax and social protection systems and to recommend cost-effective solutions to improve employment incentives and achieve better outcomes where poverty is concerned, particularly child poverty. For the information of the Deputy, I note that the report of the group has now been published and is available for everyone to discuss, which was the purpose of the consent given by the Government yesterday. The report will go before the joint committee for discussion in the next couple of weeks also.

It is important to note that in 2013 the Department of Social Protection will spend more than €2.8 billion on supports to families and children through child benefit payments amounting to €1.9 billion, family income supplement payments amounting to €220 million, qualified child increases in weekly social welfare payments amounting to €694 million, and back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance payments amounting to €49 million. Overall, this accounts for approximately 14% of expenditure through the social protection Vote. The group felt it necessary to examine how better to target support to low-income families to reduce poverty and improve work incentives. It considered two issues; the taxation of child benefit and a two-tier child income support payment proposal.

The advisory group is clear, however, that child benefit should continue to be paid on a universal basis. The committee will make known its views on this very good report produced by Ms Ita Mangan and it will come back to the Government in due course. In any event, Members will have plenty of discussion about it in this Chamber. However, there will be quite a lead-in time before there is any full implementation of whatever the decision might be in this regard. Basically, while the universal payment is fundamental, the questions around the advisory group's report were, first, to consider the question of taxation of child benefit and, second, to consider the question of a two-tier child income support whereby one would give a universal benefit across the board, which might be reduced for the higher paid and extended for lower-income families or translated into supports for families for child care, preschool and similar areas. This is an issue in which every Member will have an interest. It is a good report and I hope Members will read it. Members will have a discussion on it here but first at the Oireachtas committee before it comes back to the Government.

Deputy John Halligan

The worry is that when the Taoiseach speaks of income redistribution, everyone knows this means cuts. My request is quite simple, that is, those who need child benefit will not experience cuts. Ark Life Assurance has produced interesting statistics indicating that women working in the home spend an average of 150 hours per week on child care and housework. Were they to be paid the minimum wage of €8.65, they would earn €956 per week. They are receiving a very small income from the child benefit for the work they do. I reiterate the point that if the Taoiseach wishes to speak about redistribution and those with very high incomes, he should make a suggestion on taxing such income.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy John Halligan

However, the Government should not touch those on middle or low incomes or those who have been specifically affected by the recent austerity budgets, a group which in my estimation even includes people earning between €40,000 and €60,000. This matter must be considered carefully or Members will seriously risk driving more women and children into poverty.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Given the economic constraints on the country, there is a clear challenge in this regard for a great number of people. Obviously, with 430,000 people on the live register, we have an unemployment situation that is unacceptable. The answer to a great number of these problems obviously is to have the creation of employment and work. However, the issues Deputy Halligan raises are precisely those dealt with in the report. This is the reason the all-party committee of the Oireachtas should conduct a decent analysis of the report and give its recommendations to come back for discussions in this House. Eventually it will revert to the Government for a decision. However, I repeat the advisory group was clear on one fundamental issue, which is the importance of the universal payment. The issues the Deputy has raised are precisely those contained in that report and, consequently, Members will have the opportunity to hear the views of Deputy Halligan and others over the coming period.