Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 2013

Vol. 795 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a13, motion re by-election for Meath East, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 13, Finance Bill 2013 – allocation of time motion for select sub-committee; No. 14, Finance Bill 2013 – Financial Resolutions; No. 15, Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill 2013 – Financial Resolution; No. 16, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann that section 17A of the Diseases of Animals Act 1966 shall continue in force for the period ending on 8 March 2014, back from committee; and No. 27, Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill 2013 - Committee and Remaining Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and shall adjourn not later than 10.30 p.m.; the proceedings on No. a13 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 25 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the speeches shall be made by the Taoiseach, Tánaiste, and the leaders of Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and a representative of the Technical Group or a person nominated in their stead, and such Members may share their time; Nos. 13, 14, 15 and 16 shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 14, Financial Resolutions Nos. 1 to 42, inclusive, shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair; the Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 27 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; and in the event a division is in progress at the time fixed for taking Private Members' business, which shall be No. 97, motion re health insurance, Standing Order 121(3) shall not apply and Private Members’ business shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after 90 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, it is not agreed.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

No.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The programme for Government included a commitment to tackle the over-use of guillotines to ram through non-emergency legislation. What we have essentially today in the first item on the Order of Business is an attempt to do just that in the context of the Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill. A total of 67 amendments have been tabled to the Bill. However, only two and a half hours has been allocated for the entire Committee Stage. There is no emergency at issue. Approximately three minutes is provided for debate on each amendment. The vast majority of the Bill will not be debated because the Government is unnecessarily guillotining the debate, as it did with the original Bill before Christmas, when only three of the 88 amendments were discussed. The Government has had to bring forward an amending Bill because of the rushed nature of the Bill before Christmas. On this side of the House we are putting forward a range of amendments to provide exemptions or relief for certain categories. Notwithstanding our belief that this is the wrong tax at the wrong time, we wish to table an amendment that households in mortgage arrears would be exempt. I cannot understand how people who cannot pay their mortgage are being asked to pay the tax.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry but we cannot have a debate on the issue.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We tabled an amendment to the effect that people in negative equity would be exempt, in conformity with the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation. We also tabled an amendment on households in receipt of certain social protection payments and for pensioners. We further tabled an amendment to deal with people who paid large amounts of stamp duty in the past ten years. Finally, we tabled amendments on low-income households. We will not get an opportunity to debate those amendments. The same thing happened with the Social Welfare Bill and the Finance (Local Property Tax) Bill before Christmas and now it is going to happen again. The Government is ramming the Bill through, showing scant regard for Parliament, the Dáil and the people, who would like Members of the House to have an opportunity to give full vent to these issues, and to have adequate time to put arguments and counter-arguments, amendment by amendment. The Government is showing no regard; it just wants to ram the Bill through as fast as it possibly can regardless of commitments it made in the programme for Government.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I also oppose proposal No. 1. There are 67 amendments tabled to the Bill, which allows for less than two minutes for each amendment. We know we will not reach the vast majority of the amendments. I refer to the families who cannot afford to pay the tax for a range of reasons, in particular those in mortgage distress. We wish to debate, argue and discuss such matters. The Government is tearing up all the flowery words it used in talking about reforming politics, how the Oireachtas works and the people's revolution. Why does the Taoiseach not allow these issues to be fully debated?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach is making a mockery of this House and of the democratic process in the way he is guillotining these Bills. As I said to him last week, there is now an absolutely clear, deliberate and cynical policy on his part that where a Bill is not controversial and has all-party support, he lets it run on for days or weeks, but if a Bill is controversial, particularly if it inflicts further suffering on ordinary families in this country, working people and the unemployed - vulnerable sectors in society - he tries to ram it through without adequate time for debate, scrutiny or amendment. He is allowing just over two minutes each for 67 amendments. That is utterly unacceptable. He did exactly the same prior to Christmas when only three of 88 amendments were discussed. It is absolutely undermining and eroding the democratic process in the most cynical way. The Government Members smile like Cheshire cats when they do this because they think it is funny. However, undermining the democratic process is not funny. It is bad enough that the Government is doing this to the citizens of this country but to refuse to allow proper debate and scrutiny of the legislation by the public and the Dáil is outrageous beyond belief. What is the Taoiseach going to do? Is he going to honour the words in his programme for Government on the democratic revolution or is he going to shred democracy in order to impose the diktats of the troika?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

On Thursday, Deputy Boyd Barrett created consternation in the House. He refused to accept two extra hours of debate on Friday and to have the debate continue until 5.30 p.m.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We said we wanted more time for Committee Stage.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It was Second Stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

Quiet, please.

The Taoiseach

We had provided time from 10.30 a.m. until 3.30 p.m., and two extra hours were offered so that the nation could listen to Deputy Boyd Barrett's glorious incantations-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There is more cynicism. We asked for a vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should please allow the Taoiseach to speak.

The Taoiseach

-----but he turned it down. It is well known, as it has long been signalled, that the Revenue Commissioners, who will implement the mechanics of the implementation and collection of the property tax-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Like bloodhounds.

The Taoiseach

-----want to send out their notices to liable persons next week. That is the reason we want the Bill to be dealt with all day today and to go through the Seanad tomorrow.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is blood lust.

The Taoiseach

Members are aware that elements in the Bill are important for people such as those with pyrite-affected homes, deferrals for personal representatives, a range of other deferrals and exemptions, relief for disabled persons-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Give it another week, Taoiseach, and it will be closer to the by-election.

The Taoiseach

-----local adjustment factors, sale of property between liability and payment dates, deliberate under-declaration of chargeable value, liable person definitions and approved housing bodies and local authorities. A number of technical amendments are required. It is time for Deputy Boyd Barrett to move on. He had his rant on Thursday. He refused to agree to two extra hours of debate.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is awful. It is disgraceful.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is outrageous.

The Taoiseach

We want to move the issue on and deal with it. Deputy Boyd Barrett will have his say.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is not a rant, Taoiseach.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is not a rant.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am now putting the question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach is absolutely trampling on the democratic process.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, would you please resume your seat?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I apologise to you, a Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, resume your seat.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----but the Taoiseach is absolutely trampling on the democratic process.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Boyd Barrett, will you resume your seat, please?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

He is trampling on the democratic process.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Boyd Barrett, you will be walking if you do not listen to me.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

You refuse to allow debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do you hear me?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

You know quite well. I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle

An Ceann Comhairle

I am issuing a last warning to you.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is absolutely unacceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will you resume your seat?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach is trampling on the democratic process.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am suspending the sitting of the House for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5 p.m. and resumed at 5.05 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is that Dáil Éireann shall sit later than 9.30 p.m. and shall adjourn not later than 10.30 p.m. Is that agreed?

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 46.

Tá

• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Creed, Michael.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Keating, Derek.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Wall, Jack.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lowry, Michael.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Brien, Jonathan.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a13, motion re by-election for Meath East, agreed to?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

On a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I cannot-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Listen.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

It is very obvious that the Deputy is seeking to be thrown out so I am not going to give him the satisfaction. If he does not resume his seat, I will adjourn the Dáil, this time for 15 minutes. Is the Deputy going to resume his seat?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Government is bringing this House into disrepute in the way it is dealing with this legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and show some respect for the House.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Hundreds of thousands of families-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Dáil is adjourned for 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5.20 p.m. and resumed at 5.35 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a13, motion re by-election for Meath East agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 13, allocation of time motion for select sub-committee on the Finance Bill 2013, No. 14, Finance Bill - Financial Resolutions; No. 15, Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill 2013 - Financial Resolution, and No. 16, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann concerning section 17A the Diseases of Animals Act 1966, without debate, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 27, Committee and Remaining Stages of the Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill 2013 agreed to?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We are not agreeing to this for the same reasons we articulated before.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I ask the Taoiseach to reflect on this. We have tabled 34 amendments. Government Deputies voted earlier to stop us from debating the 23 amendments we had put forward. The Taoiseach was on these benches for a very long time and knows how frustrating it is when we go to the trouble of scrutinising the Bill, parsing it and tabling thoughtful amendments but are then denied the chance to discuss them.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition has wasted an hour even though St. Michael's beat Roscrea.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach can carry on with his cynicism but a line must be drawn on his manipulation of the processes in this House and the democratic process. What he is doing is a disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy please speak to the motion?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Government, yet again, is trying to impose a guillotine to foreclose and prevent debate on probably the most important issue this House will deal with this year and maybe in the lifetime of this Government. Hundreds of thousands of families, people who are already struggling, will be driven into an impossible situation as a result of the measure the Government is proposing, and it will not even allow proper debate and scrutiny of that Bill. It is an absolute disgrace. It is the final betrayal of what this Government promised in terms of a democratic revolution and a new way to do politics. It is doing it in the old way but even more cynically and dishonestly than the last Government. Is the Taoiseach going to relent on this dismantling of serious democratic debate in this country and in this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is only allowed to make a brief statement. He must resume his seat.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach is making a mockery of this House.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Boyd Barrett was offered two extra hours last Friday and he refused to take them.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Come on. The Taoiseach should be serious for a change. This is Committee Stage we are talking about and there are 67 amendments.

The Taoiseach

He has already wasted a further hour with his ranting here. As the Minister for Education and Skills pointed out, he might be a bit excited because St. Michael's beat Roscrea but now the school faces Blackrock so he should get ready for that. This must go through today, I have already given reasons to the House for that.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

This is going from the bizarre to the ridiculous. The Taoiseach should not be allowed to answer serious points in this way. He is making a joke out of this House.

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 32.

Tá

• Burton, Joan.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Creed, Michael.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keating, Derek.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Wall, Jack.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Collins, Joan.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lowry, Michael.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Brien, Jonathan.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The fifth and final proposal is-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

A Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

-----the proposal for dealing with the Private Members' business. Is that agreed to? Agreed.