Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Mar 2013

Vol. 798 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

On Sunday last the Sunday Business Post revealed the draft guidelines for the personal insolvency service and outlined that debt deals might force mothers to stay at home and how women could be forced to give up their jobs. The article quoted the draft guidelines and stated: "Where a person is working and paying for child care as a consequence of his or her employment the cost of child care should not exceed the income of employment". When asked about this on Monday, the Taoiseach said he would find it incredible that somebody would say a person was required to give up work to meet these changes. That is what is outlined in the draft guidelines. Did the Taoiseach know what was going on and was he aware of the draft guidelines when he commented? Had he read the draft guidelines? He may in his comments have been trying to dampen the understandable anger at such a proposal.

What we are witnessing is a degree of incoherence in the Government in that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, has confirmed the guidelines in his comments to The Irish Times and Irish Examiner and his understanding of the rationale behind them and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, stated on "Newstalk" this morning that the guidelines might have been drawn up by a man and that that was the cause of it all. This incoherence adds to the anger and disbelief. I put it to the Taoiseach that what this represents is micro-management and nanny statism as it affects the personal insolvency service. This highlights the fundamental flaw that there is no independent oversight of the banks and how they propose to deal with customers and those in mortgage arrears. We are all hearing this from people across the country in their daily dealings with the banks.

The guidelines are anti-women, anti-family and anti-employment. In the first instance, child care programmes are essential for the development of children, while work is an essential part of people's lives. Under the personal insolvency framework, they should not be forced out of work. The sustainability of family income and careers will depend on security of tenure in employment in the medium to longer term. Will the Taoiseach confirm that people who earn less than their child care costs will not be forced to give up their jobs and that what is proposed in the draft guidelines will not be included in the guidelines when published?

The Taoiseach

I so confirm. The Government is probably the most open Administration in the past 50 years-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We will take what the Taoiseach said with a pinch of salt.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies, please, settle down?

The Taoiseach

-----in its focus on trying to sort out of the public finances, getting people back to work and providing opportunities for everybody.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Look at the Labour Party's leaflet.

The Taoiseach

I understand the extent of the challenge for hundreds of thousands, particularly women, every day in balancing child care costs with income, careers and determining household budgets. We all know the extent of the pressure on so many.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Government cut child benefit.

The Taoiseach

I would like to clarify the position for the benefit of the people. As a result of the situation that has arisen which was inflicted on every household in the country owing to incompetence in the past-----

Deputy Willie O'Dea

History, again.

The Taoiseach

-----people in mortgage distress must sit down with their lender - individually in the first instance. They may also decide to go to the personal insolvency agency to discuss their circumstances with an insolvency practitioner. However, the guidelines referred to by Deputy Micheál Martin have not yet been published. I want to make it clear to every man and woman in the county but particularly women that no guideline laid down by the personal insolvency agency will be mandatory or conditional for any person in having to give up his or her job in determining his or her position.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

You are going to change the guidelines.

The Taoiseach

I want to make it perfectly clear that the guidelines will not impose conditions on anybody. No woman or man will be forced to give up his or her job, irrespective of the reality of his or her current income position, as distinct from the child care costs involved. I know young people, women in particular, including teachers and nurses, who are not earning as much as their current child care costs. It is a feature of the Government and the Ministers for Social Protection and Education and Skills to provide as much child care assistance and support as they can in the preschool year, after-school provision and so on. It is a fact of life that these challenges apply for a relatively short period. I again confirm for Deputy Micheál Martin and the House that the guidelines referred to which have not yet been published will not include as a condition that anybody, woman or man, will be required to give up a position, regardless of his or her circumstances.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I welcome the Taoiseach's confirmation that the guidelines will be changed.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

They have not been published.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They have been published.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

They have not.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If the Minister is splitting hairs, not in official form but they are available, which nobody is denying. They were revealed in the Sunday Business Post and no one has contradicted the fact that they are available. I welcome the Taoiseach's confirmation that the banks will be told to change the guidelines. However, what this speaks to is the fundamental flaw in the Government's approach to dealing with the issue of mortgage arrears. People need independent oversight of the banks which cannot be trusted to deal properly and in a reasonable manner with those in mortgage arrears.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

When did the Deputy learn that?

Deputy Dara Calleary

When did the Minister of State learn it?

Deputy Micheál Martin

You should have learned it a long time ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on, please

Deputy Micheál Martin

In addition, we are meeting people-----

Deputy Niall Collins

We do not take fake notes either.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have some quiet? Thank you.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Already, the mortgage subsidy has been cut by Government.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The people of the country are supporting the banks.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister, Deputy Howlin, cut child benefit, which many mothers in this country did not appreciate. I would appreciate if he allowed me the opportunity to speak.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister please to refrain from commenting.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The bottom line is that last July we put forward a very constructive proposal in the Dáil, and the Government accepted the principle of what we said on Second Stage-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy please put his question? He is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----when we put a Bill before the House to have an independent mortgage resolution process in place to mediate between the banks and the customers. We put that forward in the past 12 months in a constructive way, and the Taoiseach has ignored it and decided not to vote for that particular proposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The draft guidelines illustrate the degree to which-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time. Will he please put his supplementary question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----the banks are fundamentally going to ignore the Taoiseach's best intentions in terms of this issue, and they will proceed to look after their position first and not the people in mortgage arrears who are coming under increasing pressure from the banks on a daily basis.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption please.

The Taoiseach

I want to award Deputy Martin first prize for the hindsight statement of the century - "you cannot trust the banks". Well done, Deputy Martin.

Deputy Niall Collins

The Taoiseach is trusting them.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

He is saying that he can do so.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Micheál Martin says we cannot trust the banks.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Your bestest pal, Seanie.

The Taoiseach

I want to put an end to the phantom debate-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Phantom Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

----- the Deputy has been trying to engineer here about guidelines imposing mandatory conditions upon people being required to give up their job.

A Deputy

Is Leo a phantom?

The Taoiseach

Let us put an end to that debate now. It does not apply. It will not apply and it cannot apply in any circumstance.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Is the Taoiseach going to change the regulations?

The Taoiseach

This Government understands exactly the scale of the balance and the challenge that hundreds of thousands of people face every day. The vast majority in the House here have gone through that in their own way, and we understand the difficulties so many, in particular women, have in balancing budgets to run households, pay their bills and meet their requirements. That debate is a phantom debate, Deputy. Let us end it now.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Tell the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, that. He said that it must be taken into account. That is what he said to The Irish Times.

The Taoiseach

I am telling him now-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, said that it must be taken into account.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, I will not ask you a third time to stay quiet please.

The Taoiseach

-----and the people of the country, and the women of the country, the position is that no guidelines, published or unpublished-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

That are published.

The Taoiseach

-----will require as a condition that somebody give up a job.

If those in mortgage distress in dealing with their lender are unable to work out a position or a resolution to their particular problem - we hope it could be worked out - and if they decide to go the personal insolvency agency, it is at that point that the practitioners will sit down with the person or persons involved and work out the range of what their living expenses should be but it is entirely a matter for the married couple, as the case might, to decide what it is that they wish to do.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Subject to the banks' veto.

The Taoiseach

Of course, there is recourse afterwards to the courts if they wish to do that. Let us put an end to any assertion-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not up to the people. The banks are going to call it. The Taoiseach should not be disingenuous.

The Taoiseach

-----allegation or perception that somebody is going to be forced or required to give up a job in respect of a resolution.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to settle down and to stop muttering. I cannot hear.

The Taoiseach

This Government is focused on getting people back to work.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

How many people has the Government got back to work?

Deputy Niall Collins

Those are phantom jobs.

The Taoiseach

Why in heaven's name would we be supportive of some phantom debate that says that people are going to be forced to give up employment? Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to put an end to that now and finish it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams. Before the Deputy speaks, would you please-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kelleher, will you settle down, please? This is Leaders' Questions. Deputy Adams will put a question, which he is entitled to do, and the Taoiseach will answer it.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Will the Taoiseach answer the questions?

Deputy Niall Collins

These are leaderless questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies cut out the side shows, please?

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach said a moment ago that he understands the problems facing women balancing household budgets; that is why he cut children's benefits, is it? He has also cut the fuel allowance period by six weeks so that it does not extend beyond 5 April which is next week. He also cut the gas and the electricity allowance to those on the household benefits package and he allowed gas and electricity prices to increase. Last year he deducted one week's fuel allowance from more than 60,000 citizens because of an error. Many people in receipt of fuel allowance cannot afford to heat their homes. As I am sure the Taoiseach is aware, during this particular period people have to wear their overcoats indoors because they cannot afford to turn on the heating. This is particularly the case with pensioners who are very susceptible to hypothermia in these freezing conditions. We are told the cold snap could last for another four weeks.

It is a matter of record that the Taoiseach's Government is imposing savage cuts on the most vulnerable citizens while protecting the rich and the elites. It is an absolute shame. I am sure the Taoiseach would agree that people are suffering as a result of being cold in their own homes, but he can rectify this. Will he make an emergency order to extend the payment of the fuel allowance while these severe weather conditions prevail?

The Taoiseach

I am very conscious of the difficulties some people have in this regard. This is a particularly cold spell which is causing hardship on a number of fronts. The Government considered this yesterday and the Minister for Social Protection has announced that the scheme will be extended for a week-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

A week?

The Taoiseach

-----and obviously the position will be kept under review.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

A week is a long time in politics.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Listen.

The Taoiseach

Yes, a week.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Would Deputy Adams rather the Minister did not extend it?

The Taoiseach

It will affect 410,000 people and, clearly, the position in so far as the weather is concerned will be kept under review.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The cause of Labour is safe in the hand of Teachta Byrne. Of course, I welcome the announcement that this has been extended.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

Of course I do so, but it does not go far enough. The Government cut the payment period by six weeks. We welcome any morsel coming from the Government's table to help those people who are in difficulties. Between 1,500 and 2,000 more citizens die during the winter than during the summer on this island and most of those are elderly people. I welcome what the Taoiseach has said, but I ask him to reflect that when one week has passed-----

A Deputy

When the by-election is over.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Deputy made the point I was going to make. If after one week has passed and the cold weather unfortunately continues, will the Taoiseach then extend the payment of the allowance by another week and then by another week and so on? Why not put the payment period back to what it was? What not return to that position? It is not exorbitant. The salaries of Government Ministers and of banking executives-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

And of those in private medicine.

Deputy Gerry Adams

-----are exorbitant. We cannot afford that. While welcoming what is a small step in the right direction, I ask the Taoiseach to bring this payment period back to exactly what it was previously and to extend the payment while the severe weather prevails.

Deputy Frank Feighan

On a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat? I ask the Taoiseach to reply to Deputy Adams's question.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I would like to remind Deputy Adams-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat.

Deputy Frank Feighan

-----that people in the North have received the UK fuel allowance------

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Feighan does that again, he will find himself outside this Chamber. He is totally out of order.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is too cold in the snow.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am serious. No play-acting in this Chamber for television, please.

The Taoiseach

This is causing particular hardship for people in various locations in the country. The people in the North of Ireland in particular are suffering very badly at the moment. Deputy Adams will note the Government's offer of assistance in respect of the agri-sector in the North.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome that too.

The Taoiseach

I understand the free fuel payment in Northern Ireland for the entire winter is sterling £110. Perhaps the Deputy might use his influence up there to get that extended because it is infinitely a poorer position than applies here.

A Deputy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach will note that the Executive did that last winter and I am sure it will consider it again this winter.

The Taoiseach

The free fuel scheme here runs for six months covering what are normally the coldest months of the year. The Government considered this yesterday. This is a particularly bitter spell of weather. Therefore, the scheme is being extended by a week and obviously next week the Government will reflect on the continuing degree of temperatures that apply and on the weather.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Clare Daly on behalf of the Technical Group.

Deputy Clare Daly

Is the Taoiseach aware that the foremost authority on road traffic legislation in Ireland has stated that there is nothing in legislation to allow senior gardaí to cancel any penalty points? Superintendents are making what he calls secret decisions behind closed doors with no authority in road traffic legislation to allow them to do so. This is a frightening situation, an affront to the premise that the law should be conducted in public. That is not only his informed opinion but is supported by Deputies on this side of the House who have repeatedly asked the Minister for Justice and Equality to specify the legislation that he believes gives power to senior gardaí to terminate penalty points. He has not yet answered those repeated questions.

Does the Taoiseach share our surprise that the Minister for Justice and Equality, whom we believe has not yet seen the report of his own internal inquiry, has concluded that one of its key recommendations is that PULSE access must be restricted to rank and file gardaí? In other words, the conclusion of a report initiated on foot of evidence that rank and file gardaí had of malpractice by senior gardaí is that no rank and file gardaí will ever again have access to that information. In other words, the only people who can see what senior officers are doing will be senior officers. One could not make this up.

Will the Taoiseach tell us whether the Minister is deliberately trying to make sure that there will never again be a Garda whistleblower? Where is the protection for people who put their necks on the line to unearth malpractice, as the Minister encouraged them to do when he initiated his whistleblowing system? How can we have any confidence in an internal inquiry conducted by the Garda into its own activities when before it started the Commissioner said there was no basis to the allegations and before it concluded the Minister said that the solution should be to gag the whistleblowers? Will the Taoiseach tell us what legislative basis there is for gardaí to terminate penalty points? Is it not time to launch an internal inquiry? If not, who is guarding the gardaí?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Daly has raised two points. First, in respect of whistleblower legislation, a comprehensive Bill covering the entire range of whistleblowing and passing of information will be published and passed in the House later in the year. The report the Deputy mentioned has been prepared by the Garda Commissioner for the Minister for Justice and Equality. As I speak I cannot tell the Deputy whether the Minister has actually received the report. If he has not, he is due to receive it shortly. The report will be published in full. It will be debated here and I will not comment on reports that the Deputy has of what might be in the report. When the Minister has the report he will publish it and it will be debated here and everybody will have an opportunity to have their say on it.

Deputy Clare Daly

I did not make any comment about a report that has not yet been published. That would be entirely inappropriate. The questions I raised related to comments and speeches made by the Minister and points that he has already ascertained. I would like the Taoiseach to deal with the question I asked. Does he think it is appropriate that the Minister, who commissioned this report that allegedly nobody has seen, has already concluded that some access to PULSE should be removed? He did not answer my question about the legislative basis for gardaí to have the power to terminate fixed-charge penalty points. When he answers that question he might refer to the Road Traffic Act 2010, which removed the right from judges to use the Probation of Offenders Act precisely because it would mean that penalty points could be terminated, which should not happen. Why and on what legislative basis does the Taoiseach maintain that gardaí have this mythical power?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is quite well aware that it is not a function of the Taoiseach or any Minister to interpret the law. The report to which she refers was prepared by the Garda Commissioner for the Minister for Justice and Equality. When it is in the hands of the Minister it will be published and debated here and the questions that the Deputy raises about points of law, legislation on penalty points or any other matter connected with PULSE and other areas will be discussed in open session in the House.