Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

I beg your indulgence, a Cheann Comhairle, to sympathise briefly with all the families of those who lost their lives at the Boston marathon and all those who were injured by the barbaric terrorist atrocity yesterday. We heard on the news this morning how an eight year old boy lost his life just after hugging his father who had successfully completed the marathon, and whose sister lost a limb. Nothing illustrates more clearly the barbaric and inhumane nature of this act than that alone. We wish the United States authorities every speed in bringing those responsible for this heinous crime to justice as soon as possible. We have a deep cultural link with the United States and I am sure we would all agree with the sentiment in this House.

To return to matters on the home front, I say to the Taoiseach that we should understand that we are in the midst of an unprecedented, unseemly and nasty row between two arms of government, namely, the Judiciary and the Government itself which goes to the very heart of the democratic system and society that we have and that we have cherished since the foundation of the State. There is an onus and obligation on the Government to reflect on the unprecedented nature of the comments that have been made by members of the Judiciary on the breakdown of any form of communication, be it formal or informal, between the Government, the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Judiciary itself.

Quite a number of senior justices have sincerely articulated their deep concerns about trends and initiatives that have been undertaken by the Minister. I put it to the Taoiseach that it is unacceptable to attempt to demonise the members of the Judiciary, to undermine them, their status and their role and to do so on a false basis, which has occurred in recent days.

A wide range of issues has given rise to the row that has broken out, to the breakdown of relations between the Minister, the Government and the Judiciary. At the heart of it is a strong belief among members of the Judiciary that, brick by brick, its independence is being torn down. That is something which should give cause for reflection to every Member of this House. It puts a particular onus on the Government to reflect on that and to change course. As we are aware, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has great self-belief.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Deputy Martin had it once upon a time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He has a sense that he is right on all occasions. While we might grant him that on 99% of occasions, on this one he is wrong. He should step back and stop playing populist politics with the Judiciary. This is not just about pay and perks, as he and other Ministers have attempted to characterise this particular outbreak between the Judiciary and the Government. Is it the Taoiseach’s intention to intervene in this row, to reach out to the Judiciary and to create a forum that would facilitate a meaningful articulation of issues and perspectives from the point of view of the Judiciary, and also the Government and other perspectives as well to bring the row to an end?

The Taoiseach

Yesterday, I joined the President and the Tánaiste in issuing to Mayor Menino and Governor Patrick, both of whom I met last year, a statement of condemnation of the atrocity in Boston. This morning, the Government considered the matter and sent its message to President Obama in the White House on behalf of the people of America and, in particular, those in Boston, based on the very strong links between this country and Boston. I share the view of Deputy Martin and others that those who planned and carried out this act of insanity should be brought to justice as quickly as possible. Our thoughts and our prayers are with the bereaved, those who have been seriously injured and with everyone concerned.

On the point raised by Deputy Martin, Article 35.2 of Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Constitution, sets out clearly that all judges shall be independent in the exercise of their judicial functions and subject only to the Constitution and to the law. That is the position, a Cheann Comhairle. It is the firm view of the Government that the effective operation of the judicial system, of which independence in the exercise of its duty is fundamental and central to this democracy, is of critical importance and one that clearly continues. The Minister for Justice and Equality has articulated that on a number of occasions.

I want people to understand that the connections between Executive and the Judiciary are and always have been entirely appropriate on issues of concern or anxiety that members of the Judiciary have to raise. These channels have always operated through the Office of the Attorney General and continue to do so. I have met members of the Judiciary on a number of occasions on the functioning of the work carried out by it. It is clear that a number of proposed referenda have implications for the Judiciary and it is only right and proper that there would be consultation about those matters, for instance, on the Seanad or the court of civil appeal. Those are matters that affect the Judiciary and, in so far as the formation of the decisions by the people in a referendum, it is only appropriate that there would be proper consultation.

I do not accept Deputy Martin’s assertion of the demonisation of the Judiciary. I have absolute respect for the work it does and the independence with which it carries out its duties. That has always been the case and that will continue to be the case under this Administration.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Senior judges are not saying that. Mr. Justice Adrian Hardiman has made reasoned statements in the media today.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, it is practice that we do not mention the names of judges in the course of debates.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I accept that, a Cheann Comhairle, but we are in unprecedented territory.

An Ceann Comhairle

We do not want to quote anyone.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Deputy Martin wants to set a precedent.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I do not. I did not create this row.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is tradition that we do not name judges in this Chamber.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I did not create this row and I am making a constructive contribution so that we can resolve the issue.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That would be a first.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The problem is that there is too much of a majority on the Government side and Government Members think they can do what they like with the fundamental institutions of the State. That is at the heart of the issue.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Yes, it is.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I put it to the Taoiseach-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Dearbhail McDonald summed it up well in the Irish Independent today when she wrote that "a demonised, demoralised judiciary at war-----

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Deputy Martin should quote Fionnan Sheahan.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----with the State is a sad, bad day for Irish democracy".

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Fionnan Sheahan does not agree with Deputy Martin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is a range of other commentary. The Taoiseach is correct.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputies should not name him in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second. This is our first day back. Would Deputies please behave themselves and allow the Deputy to ask his question? Deputy Martin has one minute and the Taoiseach will then reply. The Taoiseach will do all of the talking for the rest of the Government Deputies.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach is correct that there are a wide range of issues involved here, not least the manner in which the Minister has given himself power under the Personal Insolvency Act to create a new cadre of judges from the Civil Service, for example. A limited number of people need only apply, up to 2014, namely County Registrars. As one senior counsel today said, this is-----

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----an enormous change to the system of nominating and appointing judges.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Yellow pack judges.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The judges are saying that communications have broken down between the Government and the Judiciary.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The pension changes, in terms of the length of service for superior judges, is an issue on which there was no consultation. The three referendums that are coming forward all have implications for judicial independence.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you Deputy Martin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The proposal for an overarching commission to adjudicate, not just on judicial appointments but on all judicial issues, particularly in the aftermath of the recent referendum, was too arbitrarily dismissed by the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy please to respect the Chair.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach confirm that he will intervene and create a reasonable forum where these issues can be thrashed out? I welcome the Taoiseach's comment to the effect that he acknowledges the importance of consultation on very fundamental issues of this kind.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is the first comment we have had from the Government today that points in a constructive direction. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, tried earlier to reduce this to a populist argument to court popular support.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I will not ask you a second time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his indulgence.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice and Equality referred to the capacity of a number of County Registrars whose long service as legal practitioners enables them to be eligible to be considered for dealing with elements of the insolvency legislation.

Regarding consultation, there was a conference on 2 March last, organised by the Law Society, regarding the consultations necessary in respect of the proposal for the setting up of a court of civil appeal. That conference was addressed by the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Chief Justice, the head of the Bar Council and representatives of the Law Society of Ireland and dealt with various ideas on the parameters, structures and strategies in respect of a court of civil appeal. Such a court has been referred to by members of the Judiciary on many occasions. Deputy Martin is well aware that the opportunity to have cases heard before the Supreme Court has been seriously extended in recent years and this is an issue that must be dealt with. As the Deputy knows, these Bills have not been published yet. Clearly, when they are published, there will be an opportunity for proper and full consultation.

It is not a question of intervention, Deputy Martin. I am happy to continue with the informal and formal engagement which takes place between the Judiciary and the Executive, facilitated through the Office of the Attorney General. That has always been the practice, is the practice now and will continue to be the practice. In that context, I repeat that the independence of the Judiciary in the carrying out of its judicial functions is enshrined in Article 35.2 of our Constitution and is central to the democratic system of this country. The report on judicial independence for 2012-13, published by the World Economic Forum in Davos, ranked Ireland fourth out of the 144 countries that were assessed, in terms of the degree of independence.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That was before this Government got hold of it.

The Taoiseach

This is something that is very important to the people of this country. We want to ensure that the absolute independence of the Judiciary is maintained.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I wish to extend from these benches a message of solidarity to the people of Boston and the United States.

There is no doubt that the row between the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, and the judges is unprecedented and unnecessary but the Taoiseach seems to be choosing to look the other way. Despite what the Taoiseach has said here this afternoon, the judges say that communication has broken down and they attribute this very directly to the Minister, Deputy Shatter's way of doing business. Not alone has he alienated An Garda Síochána, but he has added to his list the judges, the Bar Council and the Law Society of Ireland.

Some of the reforms being pursued by the Minister are good but others are questionable. However, the issue here is the manner in which the Minister pursues his business. It is not acceptable for the Minister to try to railroad through key changes without adequate consultation with relevant stakeholders. Nor is it helpful or advisable for the Minister just to reject arrogantly any criticism of his approach to reform. No stakeholders, judges included, should have a veto on any change but they do have a right to be listened to and any sensible Minister for Justice and Equality would make it his business to have a listening ear.

We have a situation now where morale among gardaí is at an all-time low and this seems to be now infecting other arms of the legal and judicial system. I hope the Taoiseach will agree that he cannot allow this situation to continue. Does the Taoiseach intend to intervene? Does he accept that there is a problem in the manner of engagement between the Minister and the Judiciary? Is he going to do anything about this? Would he consider, for instance, appointing an independent mediator to examine the issues involved and to try to come to some resolution between the Minister and the Judiciary?

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin did well down in Castlebar at the weekend although people said that the party's economic policies were utter fantasy - pay for nothing at all and have endless perceptions of wealth.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Thousands are emigrating every year because of this Government's economic policies.

The Taoiseach

Deputy McDonald was welcomed across the Shannon anyway.

As I said to Deputy Martin, as Taoiseach I am very happy to continue to facilitate the engagements, both formal and informal, as appropriate, between the Government, the Executive, and members of the Judiciary. I would point out that this has always been facilitated through the Office of the Attorney General. In fact, a meeting took place on 7 March between the Chief Justice, the Attorney General and representatives of the Department of Justice and Equality. This was followed by a letter, written by the Attorney General with my consent, to the Chief Justice about these matters, in terms of keeping the lines of communication open and keeping the relationship between the Judiciary and the Government as it should be. I am happy to facilitate that continuing engagement.

I do not accept that the arrangements for communication, both formal and informal, have been withdrawn, suspended or have ceased. They are ongoing and will continue, in the interests of good communications. As I said earlier, the absolute independence of the Judiciary in this country has been accepted by everybody and will be maintained by this Government.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Given that the Taoiseach mentioned Castlebar, a taxi driver I spoke to there put it very well when he said-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Sinn Féin had friends in that business, I believe.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

A Castlebar native himself, he said that Sinn Féin had done more for the economy in Castlebar in one weekend than the Taoiseach had done in two years.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that Deputy McDonald's supplementary?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach clearly occupies a different reality to other people. He is clearly now saying to the judges that not alone does he not acknowledge that there are issues at play here and a difficulty with the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, he is also saying to them that they are simply wrong. They say, very clearly, that communication has broken down. They are on the public record as having said that but the Taoiseach will not take that on board. It is no wonder the Minister is carrying on the way he is. Why would he not?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy McDonald.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach is not going to call the Minister to account and is not going to straighten this out. He talks about the independence of the Judiciary and in that context, I have a suggestion to make to him. My party colleague, Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, brought forward legislation to end the system of political appointments to the Bench.

We should have an independent process to appoint judges and if the Government is that committed to its independence, with the Judiciary the cornerstone of our democracy, why does it not bring forward that legislation? It would make it truly independent. When something is clearly going wrong, why does the Taoiseach not intervene with the line Minister and insist that matters be sorted out? He seems to prefer to turn a blind eye or look the other way while hoping for the best.

The Taoiseach

Deputy McDonald is wrong. As I said, the arrangements for communication with the Judiciary, including informal and appropriate and formal and appropriate measures, will continue.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

They have not been happening.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is one-sided.

The Taoiseach

I am very happy to facilitate that through the Office of the Attorney General. As I stated in a letter to the Chief Justice on 8 March, following a meeting between the Chief Justice and Attorney General, the effective operation of the judicial system - in which independence is a cornerstone - is recognised as being indispensable to the State and its citizens. I am very happy to maintain that. I also recognise that there are legitimate concerns that must be discussed and communicated as appropriate with the Judiciary and Executive. As Deputy McDonald is aware, many of these result from a radical programme of change in the generality of the legal system. Some of the proposed amendments to the Constitution are two cases in point that I have referred to, as they relate to the Seanad and the court of civil appeal. The Attorney General facilitates through her office communications between the Judiciary and Executive and that position will continue. It is easy for the Deputy to shake her head as she comes from a party that not so long ago did not recognise the courts in this land.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

What was the point? They were political appointees.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Does the Deputy recognise the Special Criminal Court?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I express sympathy on behalf of Independents to the people of Boston, where many of the Irish diaspora live. I condemn what happened yesterday and I know no effort will be spared in bringing the perpetrators of that heinous crime to justice. A joyous occasion of sport should always escape warfare.

I am sure Deputy Tom Hayes will not mind if I say that we welcome any political party to Tipperary for an Ard-Fheis.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Hear, hear.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Is the Deputy going back to Fianna Fáil?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Last week, a former IMF mission chief to Ireland, Mr. Ashoka Mody, stated that complete reliance on austerity was not reasonable and the construct for Ireland's rescue was wrong. These are plain and simple words, used in a moment of unusual honesty and humility and confirming what many observers have come to recognise. Austerity works, but only at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs and livelihoods, leaving families destroyed.

Of the suggested alternatives, the first choice was to force senior bondholders to bear some of the sovereign debt costs. Is the Tánaiste still here, as we heard the mantra many times from his side of the House? We had the phrase of "Labour's way or Frankfurt's way" off by heart from listening to it. A second choice would have been an offer of concessional official financing, with a third choice of imposing austerity. We know which was taken. The Labour Party Tánaiste may be gone because he is fearful of the text messages he may be receiving about the Croke Park agreement. I will not give an opinion on it but if the unions approve the agreement, it will be by the slightest margin because austerity has not worked. Promises were broken.

Mr. Mody was very honest but the Taoiseach's dismissive reply when he was confronted by the media was to label him as an old fuddy-duddy who has retired. We all know what was the position. These political measures are not working so will the Taoiseach at this late stage change tack and accept that the price of austerity is too high? It is crippling our economy and our families so will the Taoiseach give some chink of hope or light to our young people, ordinary workers, the so-called middle class and business people? They are not being helped in any way and austerity is clearly crippling our economy.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Mattie McGrath is aware of the programme set out by the Government to factor in a €300 million saving for this year and €1 billion by 2015. The Deputy is also aware of the challenges faced by many people. The alternative, as Deputy Mattie McGrath is aware, would be to have to consider the implications of the issue for front-line services. For that reason, the Government set out its programme. The ballot results will be announced very shortly by the unions.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

It has been rejected.

Deputy Micheál Martin

SIPTU has rejected it.

The Taoiseach

The Government will reflect on the implications of that decision, with the bottom line being that the inclusion of €300 million this year stands. The Government will reflect on the outcome of the ballot as declared.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Will there be extra time?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply but, sadly, it reminds me of something I read during the week about how getting worse more slowly is not the same as getting better. It is time for the Taoiseach to learn that message. He saw the books before the last election and knew the situation but he has heaped austerity upon austerity. People cannot take any more and when more is taken from people's pockets, they have less to spend or contribute via taxation. The economy is slowing as a result. There is no point in dismissing the views of those who tell us the obvious conclusion that austerity has failed, as it has in other countries.

I welcome the extension given in repaying our debt but the bottom line is that the gross sum is morally wrong and crippling. The senior bondholders emerged from the process scot free and, to make it worse, I learned recently that all those people had their reckless investments insured, so they would have been safe anyway. We are being held up as the poster boys of Europe and a model for other countries but the price is too high. When will the Taoiseach realise that? Must there be another couple of dozen Labour Party backbenchers on this side of the House before he listens and changes his ways in the interest of saving our country?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is well aware that given the circumstances inherited by the Government when it entered office-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The old mantra.

The Taoiseach

-----the negotiations which have taken place at a European level have resulted in the acceptance by the European Central Bank of Ireland's programme, which will save the country €20 billion in borrowing over the next ten years. The negotiations at European level have also resulted in the drop in interest rates for the country from over 14% to less than 4%. We have also seen the ending of the bank guarantee and the sale of Irish Life. The international economy is seeing Ireland as having credibility and integrity.

The problem and challenge for everybody is that although growth figures are positive this year compared to many other European countries, they still do not have the impact I would like to see on the local economy. The private sector is now returning 1,000 new jobs every month but the Government has taken a range of decisions to help small and medium enterprises by changing the structures of the banks and requiring new lending targets for each of the pillar banks of €4 billion this year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is a fiction.

The Taoiseach

We have introduced a micro-finance agency for very small operators and a partial loan credit guarantee. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform announced a €2.5 billion stimulus fund last year for a range of infrastructure, such as the facilities at Grangegorman, some road developments, schools, primary care centres, legal buildings and so on. The Government this morning decided to establish NewERA on a statutory basis, allowing the transfer of the National Pensions Reserve Fund facilities and providing an opportunity for the Government to discuss how best to create employment.

We had a specific Cabinet meeting on jobs and 17 particular actions were identified at it that will make an impact on the live register quickly. We will follow those through assiduously and promptly.

We all want to see opportunities for people to have employment. The challenge for this Oireachtas and this Government is to deal with a restoration of confidence in our indigenous economy. The international economy is growing strongly, exports are thriving and the corporate tax rate is stable and being retained at 12.5%. The IDA will have its best year in over a decade this year. The challenge for us all is to be creative and imaginative in the way we can impact on the creation of jobs all over the country in the context of developing the local economy. That is why the Government continues to make a range of opportunities available for access to credit for small and medium enterprises and for opportunities like the JobBridge scheme and the VAT reduction, so people can have that opportunity to get out to work and contribute in their own personal lives and the local economy. Clearly the other element of that is the insolvency agency coming on board to deal with those in mortgage distress to allow them to contribute to their local economy.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 16 Apr 2013

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Apr 2013