Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Apr 2013

Vol. 800 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Undocumented Irish in the USA

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Tánaiste for taking time out of his busy schedule to come to the House to address this important issue.

The Tánaiste will be aware from activity in the consular section of his Department and from international media reports that there seems to be an increased level of activity by the immigration authorities, particularly in the Boston area, targeting the undocumented Irish. This appears to be orchestrated, a worrying development. There are a number of cases, including one of a man originally from my constituency who is entirely law abiding, albeit undocumented. This brings its own difficulties in procuring driving licences and other documentation needed to go about daily life. This gentleman was arrested at 6.30 a.m. when he got up to go out to work. He employs 11 people and is married with two children. He is law abiding in every other way. He has made a life for himself and his family in the Boston area.

It is disappointing that there has been this renewed level of activity in cities like Boston at a time when considerable progress appears to be emerging on Capitol Hill under proposals put forward by President Obama. The Tánaiste has been to the forefront of the campaign since before he assumed his current ministerial role and I have no doubt he has raised the matter in Washington.

Could the Tánaiste make contact with the Office of the President of the United States and others on Capitol Hill to see if something can be done to find a level of amnesty for these people prior to the passage of the legislation so they are not being rounded up in advance of the solution they have been waiting for? This gentleman is now in a federal prison and it is not clear when he will get out. There was a time when undocumented immigrants were put on the first flight home and at least people knew where they stood. In this instance, my contacts tell me this person could be in prison for two months or more. That is huge uncertainty for him, his wife and his family. They are at their wits' end and do not know what to do.

We must have a two-pronged approach to this. We must deal with the immediate issue for this individual and then see if we can get some assistance from the federal administration to calm down what seems to be overzealous activity in light of the fact that, at long last, a solution is in sight.

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Eamon Gilmore)

The plight of the undocumented remains a top priority for the Government and in this regard, the publication yesterday of a bipartisan Bill in the US Senate is a very positive development which, if adopted, would help to end the great hardship and uncertainty faced by undocumented Irish in the US and their families here in Ireland. The legislation was drafted over several months by a bipartisan group of eight Senators and includes provisions that would help to resolve the plight of thousands of undocumented Irish people living illegally in the United States. It is also provides for future flows of legal migration between Ireland and the United States.

I am conscious that the overall issues involved are complex and sensitive ones within the US political system and that much further debate is likely to be required before the final shape of any overall legislation becomes clear. The Taoiseach and I have had numerous discussions with proponents of this Bill over many recent months and in particular during the St. Patrick's Day period. I want to acknowledge the supportive role played by Irish organisations in the US in bringing the matter this far. I do not doubt that there is much work and many uncertainties ahead as we strive to bring this work to a conclusion but the determination of this Government to support the inclusion of a new provision to allow several thousand Irish citizens to legally avail of employment opportunities in the US every year, and to address the issues facing the undocumented, should not be in doubt.

I am aware that from time to time concerns are expressed concerning the detention of Irish citizens in the United States prior to deportation. While the official figures available to us indicate that the numbers of undocumented Irish being detained and deported have not increased significantly in recent years, and we have not received any recent indications to suggest that detention conditions for Irish people in such situations have been problematic of late, I am aware that the anxiety and stress which detention and deportation cause is very real. This is why it remains the Government position to strongly discourage anyone considering moving to the US without legal status.

I am aware of a report in the Irish ethnic media in the US suggesting that US Immigration and Customs Enforcement has engaged in a sweep of undocumented Irish in Boston. The ICE, however, has confirmed that it does not engage in indiscriminate raids against potential undocumented communities. Our missions in the United States have not recorded any recent significant increase in numbers. The Deputy has outlined a particular case and if he gives me the details of that case, I will have the Department and relevant consulate investigate further. In March 2013, there were nine Irish people in detention for immigration violations, while in February 2013 there were seven. Our missions in the United States provide consular assistance to Irish nationals who have been detained and are awaiting deportation. We seek to minimise the detention period, and have also assisted in expediting the deportation process where there have been particular medical or other humanitarian issues.

I want to underline the Government's commitment to sustaining support for our emigrants overseas and for the many young Irish people who have left in recent years. There is no more tangible expression of this support than the emigrant support programme, which has sustained support for frontline organisations working to address the needs of emigrants, notwithstanding the current budgetary pressures.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Tánaiste for the way he has outlined his position on the progress that has been made and I will provide the Tánaiste with the details of the case I raised. The consular staff in Boston are involved in this case and familiar with it.

It does not take from the fact that here is a family - I understand there are a number of others - who would have expected to benefit from this legislation and who find themselves in a precarious position. The husband is detained in prison, there is no clear sign of when he will be released, whether he will be returned to Ireland or how quickly that might take place.

It will need guidance from those who are supporting and driving this legislation on Capitol Hill that they would start to filter information down to ICE and others that this is on the way. I accept that until such time as the legislation has passed, it will not be possible to find a workaround for it, but I ask if interim arrangements could be considered for those who are under investigation for being undocumented or who find themselves in a state or federal prison. Assistance could be provided to them so that they would be allowed to remain and that they would be released on licence.

It is not for me to comment on how other countries seek to deal with immigration. We have our own issues here and have been slow and perhaps tardy as a country in dealing with them, but it is unnecessary to have this individual in jail. His wife and family are in the country, so he is not going anywhere. I would hope that there could be some softening and a recognition that at long last we hope the end is in sight in a way that would see this undocumented issue sorted out once and for all, and in so doing, that the small number who are on the fringes at present do not find themselves outside the loop.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

First, I need to know the details of the particular case and again I invite Deputy Dooley to let me have them. My Department and the consulate concerned will address it and no doubt will provide assistance to the individual concerned.

This is a problem that has gone on for a very long time. The undocumented Irish in the United States live in a kind of a shadowed existence. As Deputy Dooley stated, they cannot get a driving licence or come back home for a funeral. They are caught in a difficult situation.

As the Deputy will be aware, we have been working for some time to try to get that resolved. We now have a big break on that in the form of the legislation that was published yesterday. We have been working with this group of eight Senators, four Democrats and four Republicans - it is most important that this is a bipartisan approach - who have brought forward legislation on immigration. They have included in that legislation measures that will address the problem of the undocumented Irish in the United States but also allow for a flow of legal migration at this level between Ireland and the United States for the first time since the 1960s. This is a significant development. We need to be mindful that the issue of immigration in the Unites States is a controversial one. It has its own political dimension, as immigration has in this country. We must work with the Senators concerned, the House of Representatives and President Obama's Administration to get this legislation through, and we will do that.

In the meantime, as regards the situation as it affects individuals, I can identify entirely with a person who, just as the legislation is published, finds himself arrested, detained and in a difficult situation. As I stated, if Deputy Dooley lets us have the details, we will deal with the particular case, but I do not want to get into calls for amnesties, which could be unhelpful in the context of getting the legislation advanced.

Beef Technology Adoption Programme

Deputy Paul J. Connaughton

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for the opportunity to raise this issue. This is a relatively new scheme that has been running for only two years. It is a welcome development from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and from the Minister, Deputy Coveney. If we are to meet our Harvest 2020 production targets, it is important that all farmers are on the same plain and continue to work with each other and advise each other on best ways of carrying out such work.

There is an issue with the scheme at present in that quite a number of farmers, in particular in County Galway, have not received any payment for it. The reason I raise this today is that the issues in a number of these cases seem to be very small. They seem to be issues that should be easy to fix and the punishment for the issues raised seems over the top. For example, one elderly man missed due to health reasons one of the five meetings that he was supposed to attend and his penalty was 100%. It seems excessive that a man who would miss one of these five meetings for health reasons is then thrown out of the scheme or not paid. Certainly, it has been communicated to him that he will not be paid.

There are other issues related to the BVD eradication scheme announced by the Department last year. Whereas last year it was not compulsory to take part in it and it was up to the farmer, this year that has changed. The vast majority of farmers did not know that going into the scheme this year. They now have been disqualified from it.

There are other issues where a great deal of this information is to be submitted online. If one ticked one box wrongly, there was no second chance. There was no way around it and the penalty was that one would receive no payment for it.

This, as we all will be aware, is against the backdrop of agriculture being in terrible crisis due to the bad weather. The issue of the fodder crisis has been raised in the past week already. The Department might consider these figures quite small, but for the individual farmer this is extremely serious. I call on the Minister today to ensure whatever can be done is done in order that these farmers are paid as soon as possible.

There is another issue with the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS, another farm payment. This problem arose last year and the Department does not seem to be able to get on top of it. Farmers have carried out the work they were expected to do. The Department is based in Johnstown Castle in Wexford from where it seems nearly impossible to get information. Over recent months I have become aware of farmers who have still to receive payment for this work and on telephoning the Department, one is told to come back to them in two weeks, three weeks or a month. Today, I telephoned to find out the position in the cases of two farmers and was told there are penalties on their applications. The farmers concerned do not know that.

As I stated, all of this is against the backdrop of a fodder crisis in the sector where farmers literally cannot afford to feed their cattle, and that will cause significant issues. The Minister cannot be blamed for the weather but he must understand where we are. I now hear talk of the Government encouraging the banks, the credit unions and co-operatives to be more lenient with farmers, but does it not understand that these are the ones with whom the farmers have the issue? The farmer needs the money to pay back the co-operative and the bank. Why would they be any easier in lending to these farmers in a situation where they are the ones to whom the farmers are supposed to be giving the money?

What I want to get across to the Minister is that there are issues with this scheme that are not being resolved. Farmers have still not been paid on their AEOS payments. It is impossible to get information out of Johnstown Castle as to why there is a problem on a farmer's application. If there is an issue, let us fix it. Allow the farmer the chance to fix that problem. These farmers need help and they are not getting it. We need to get it to them as soon as possible.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dinny McGinley)

I wish to convey the apologies of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, that he could not be in the House to discuss this important issue.

To set the context, in February last year, the Minister announced the launch of a beef technology adoption programme, BTAP, as a key element in driving the ambitious targets for the beef sector in Food Harvest 2020. Based on the discussion group model, the programme is intended to provide participants with the knowledge and the skills necessary to reduce costs and increase profit margins on their beef farms for which there is significant potential. While engaging in the discussion groups, participating farmers develop business plans which will enable them to set targets and track progress over the three years of the programme. Annually, participants also undertake two tasks, from a menu of eight, to assist them in improving performance in a number of areas at farm level.

The beef sector is a critically important part of the economy from an employment and export earnings point of view. It is playing an important role in Ireland's economic recovery, as is the food and agrifood sector generally. Mindful of this, the Minister made €5 million per annum available to fund BTAP, which is designed to run for three years, from 2012 to 2014.

The Minister believes that for the sector to reach its development potential, farmers must take steps to improve profitability. This means focusing on better management at farm level, improving breed quality, reducing the negative impact that poor animal health can have on efficiency, and ensuring they produce the kind of animal that the market requires.

The Minister is confident that this programme can provide an important stimulus to standardise on Irish farms the kind of focus on profit that is necessary to make a success of any business enterprise.

The beef sector, which had an excellent year in 2011, with a 15% increase bringing the value of exports to €1.8 billion, again grew significantly in 2012 when the value of exports increased to €1.9 billion. However, there continue to be challenges to be faced, particularly given the financial pressure on consumers arising from an extremely difficult global economic environment. It is for this reason that a continued focus on producing high-quality beef while maintaining competitiveness is critical for the sector. It is self-evident that the industry can only grow and develop if that growth is profitable for the primary producer and this programme can play an important role in ensuring that is the case.

In the first year of the programme, while a total of 6,563 applicants had initially been accepted into the programme having been confirmed as satisfying the programme eligibility criteria, by the end of 2012, a total of 4,809 farmers involved in 440 discussion groups had successfully completed the first year, with €4.5 million paid to participants. The balance of 1,754 were found not to have to have attended the requisite number of discussion group meetings and-or had not satisfactorily completed the required two tasks. Appeals were subsequently lodged in respect of 600 of those who had not been paid and these are in the process of being examined. Some 101 have been confirmed as being eligible on the basis of the additional data submitted in support of the appeals.

The Minister remains ambitious for the beef sector and is confident that with a positive and collaborative approach from stakeholders the sector can build on its already excellent reputation. The sector is a key element in the Food Harvest 2020 Strategy and the BTAP is a vital tool in realising its great potential.

Deputy Paul J. Connaughton

I thank the Minister of State for his response. My issue is not with the scheme, which is doing what it should do. I regret that the Minister cannot be here - I understand he is extremely busy as all Ministers are at the moment. I believe it is important for the Government to appoint a new Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine owing to the workload the Minister is facing and the importance of the sector.

I cannot complain about much in the Minister of State's reply. I understand the merits of the scheme and that is not the problem. The issue is with the farmers yet to be paid. In order to drive the sector forward, if people sign up to complete a scheme, they should be paid when they expect to be paid. The problem is that the appeals are taking considerably longer than they should take. The issue with AEOS is getting the information from the Department to individual farmers to explain what needs to be done. The Minister of State mentioned that some of them had not attended discussion group meetings. As I said, one farmer did not attend owing to health reasons and did not get his payment. That is completely over the top and that should not be the case.

I understand the scheme and welcome it. If anything we want to see it extended. However, individual farmers, particularly those in Galway, who have not been paid, need to be paid. The Department needs to work with them through the beef discussion groups or elsewhere as soon as possible. These farmers are on their knees at the moment. They cannot go to the banks or to the co-operatives. Instead of forcing them to these places, they should be given the money they deserve and for which they signed up. It needs to be expedited in any way possible. The resources need to be allocated to help these people out. That help must come over the next two to three weeks. There is no point in it coming in the next couple of months - we need delivery on this now. These farmers are in a very tough situation with massive debts. Let us get them the money they deserve so that they are not forced to go to the banks. They should be given an opportunity to do what they do well. Only then can the sector drive on from there.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I appreciate the Deputy's concern. Coming from a similar area, I understand the importance of this. I am sure the Deputy would agree it was an imaginative and creative scheme as proven by the number of applicants. Of 6,563 applicants, 4,809 have successfully completed and €4.5 million of the allocated €5 million has already been paid out. Based on what the Deputy has said, some of the payments appear to have been delayed. His concerns, and mine, will be brought to the Minister's attention. Given that the Minister has a great understanding of agriculture, I am sure he will do everything possible to expedite any payment that is due and is not yet processed. Some 600 appeals are in process of which more than 100 have already been assessed successfully. Taking everything into consideration, significant progress is being made on the matter. I know farmers want to get whatever is owing to them as soon as possible.

Property Valuations

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am glad to have the opportunity to raise this matter. It is unfortunate that no Minister from the Department of Finance has come to the House to respond. While I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, given that the issue affects virtually everybody in the country, it is a pity that nobody from the Department of Finance was prepared to attend.

There is a very real risk that many thousands of homeowners face being considerably overcharged for the new property tax. The local property tax is anti-urban, anti-jobs and above all takes no account of people's ability to pay. Contrary to the promises we were given, it is not a site-valuation tax. For all those reasons it is an unfair tax. However, the administration of the tax makes that unfairness even worse. The Revenue Commissioners used a complex statistical model to arrive at its estimate for each property throughout the State. However, obvious determinants of property price, such as size, number of bedrooms, condition, extension or garden size, were either imputed from area averages or did not form part of the model used.

People are generally not aware of this fact. It means that smaller homes can end up in a valuation band that is higher than the true value of that home. By its own admission, the Revenue estimate is up to €50,000 out in a large number of cases and up to €100,000 or more out in approximately 10% of cases. The guidance and background documentation provided makes this clear. The valuation band prediction is accurate in less than 50% of cases by Revenue's own admission, which is unacceptable in terms of providing guidance to the public on the matter. People are not aware that the guidance being presented to them by Revenue is so inaccurate in a majority of cases. Instead Revenue has used the model to provide highly crude valuation guidance based on area averages within each electoral division. However, because it is based on averages, in many cases this guidance is utterly meaningless.

I recently crosschecked last year's house sale prices in one electoral division in my constituency with the guidance provided by Revenue. Of the ten properties sold last year, seven did not correspond to the area valuation identified by Revenue. What practical use is this to people in that area? There is a real risk that many people will be overcharged because they are unaware of how unreliable Revenue's approach has been and they do not want to run the risk of second-guessing Revenue. To add insult to injury the reply I received this week to a parliamentary question confirmed that if a person pays more than is due and that becomes obvious later there is no mechanism for that person to get a refund. People are generally not aware of this either. What responsibility is the Minister taking for this? Does he accept that the system operating at the moment is very inaccurate and that steps need to be taken to provide much clearer guidance to the public to avoid people being overcharged?

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. Unfortunately the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State at the Department are unavailable as they are outside the country. The Finance (Local Property Tax) Act 2012 sets out in detail how the tax is to be administered and provides how a residential property is to be valued for local property tax, LPT, purposes.

LPT is a self-assessed tax and as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has advised the House on many occasions, it is a matter for the property owner in the first instance to calculate the tax due based on his or her assessment of the market value of the property. For the purposes of LPT, values for properties under €1 million are organised into valuation bands, with an initial band up to €100,000 followed by bands of €50,000 between €100,001 and €1,000,000, so owners will not be required to provide a precise value for their property.

The Revenue Commissioners have prepared valuation guidance which, together with the owner's knowledge of a property, will assist him or her in assessing its value. This guidance should be used together with other sources of information including the Property Services Regulatory Authority's property price register, property sections of newspapers, information from local estate agents and property websites. When using Revenue's valuation guidance, property owners should consider the specifics of their property and if they feel that the guidance does not indicate a reasonable valuation, they should make their own assessment.

In the absence of a national residential property valuation system, the valuation guidance developed by Revenue is designed to help property owners in self-assessing the market value of their property by giving them average indicative values for their area. The guidance is based on sales in the past three years and provides a benchmark to help people consider whether their property is more or less valuable than the average in an area. This guidance will be helpful in the majority of cases, but there are always properties in an area which differ from the average.

Surprise has been expressed in some quarters at the fact that the valuation guidance does not accurately reflect the market value of a specific unique property. However, the valuation guidance explicitly states, "This service provides a guide to average market values of properties in a given locality and offers an indicative valuation band for properties depending on type, age and location. It does not provide market values for individual properties".

Revenue has made the guidance as simple as possible, and users need only know their property's type, age and location. The Revenue valuation guidance website combines two aspects. These are a simple point and click option to get an average valuation for an electoral district, and an interactive map showing relative valuations across electoral districts.

I will take this opportunity to explain briefly how property owners should use the Revenue guidance. The Revenue guidance may show the average valuation band for a semi-detached property in a particular location is between €350,000 and €400,000. If an owner of a two bedroom semi-detached property knows the majority of semi-detached houses in the area have three bedrooms, then the owner can reasonably expect the Revenue guidance to reflect the value of a three-bedroom property. This could offer a basis to adjust the valuation of the property downwards from the guidance average.

It is important to re-iterate that the Revenue guidance does not claim to value every house. Using the guidance requires a property owner to make an assessment based on his or her knowledge of the house, the neighbourhood, the house types and any factors he or she feels are relevant, as well as combining the Revenue guidance with the property price register and any other appropriate sources of information available.

Revenue's valuation guidance has been peer-reviewed and favourably endorsed by commentators who are very familiar with the property market. Those who are sowing seeds of confusion regarding the valuation process are not being helpful to the generality of taxpayers, who as Revenue point out, are tax compliant. Revenue's view is that its guidance will provide the correct valuation band for nearly half of all properties in an area and will be within one band either way for a further 40% to 45% of properties.

It is also clear that a substantial number of people disagree with misinformed claims about the Revenue online guidance, as it is being used extensively by the public. Up to Tuesday this week, in excess of 868,100 hits were recorded on the site and more than 188,400 users either opened the valuation guidance from the Revenue website or saved it to their computer.

Revenue has also provided for those who do not use the Internet by preparing paper copies of the indicative valuation band for each property type in every electoral district in the country. These are available from Revenue public offices and the major Citizens' Information Centre offices. Copies were also made available at briefing sessions held by the Revenue Commissioners in Leinster House for Oireachtas Members and their staff.

I agree people should not automatically pay the Revenue estimate. The estimate, as Revenue has consistently stated, including in newspaper advertising this week, is only relevant if the property owner does not file and return. Credit should be given to the owner's knowledge of the property market and his or her ability to work out a reasonable valuation for the property, certainly within €50,000 bands. The level of public debate on property valuation suggests that most people are engaging with the local property tax, have a good general sense of the value of their property, and are carrying out research to enable them to do their self-assessed return. I welcome this.

Revenue's press release on Tuesday, 16 April, stated 130,802 LPT returns have already been filed by property owners who, in the majority of cases, have made their own assessment of the valuation band for their property. This clearly shows people are following the self-assessment principles and making their best assessment of the value of their property.

Revenue's website cites additional sources to help in the valuation process, such as other property websites and information from local estate agents and newspapers. While the latter sources quote asking prices which tend to be higher than final prices, these should nonetheless help the property owner get a general idea of property values in their locality which can be used in conjunction with the other sources of information available.

In the context of a self-assessed tax, I am completely satisfied that Revenue's online valuation guidance is fit for purpose, that Revenue has been very clear about its scope and purpose, and that it performs at least equally well, if not better, than other sources of valuation guidance available. I am confident the valuation guidance will be useful for the majority of property owners in assisting them to value their homes, and that using this source and the other sources to which Revenue points, as well as the property owner's knowledge of his or her property, provides the basis for this self-assessment to be honest and reasonable.

I have no difficulty with opposition to this tax, or indeed to any other tax, but I am concerned some media commentators, some professionals in property-related businesses and, unfortunately, some politicians are creating confusion by making claims that are simply not true. I remind the House the local property tax is provided for in legislation passed by the Oireachtas, and I encourage Members to assist constituents in meeting their legal obligations.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

At the beginning of his contribution the Minister of State said the average price in an electoral division is accurate in most cases. This is not actually true. I have already given an example where seven out of ten cases were inaccurate in one electoral division, and I can provide the information to support this. I call on the Minister of State to provide clearer guidance to people on how they can go about self-assessment in an honest way. Will the Minister of State consider making it clear to people that the correspondence they receive from Revenue is not a bill but merely an estimate, which is likely to be inaccurate in the majority of cases?

I also call on the Minister of State to be more forthcoming about the inaccuracies in the approach of the Revenue Commissioners. Will he consider updating the property price register to provide more detail on house size and bedrooms? Will he give guidance on the percentage reductions which should be applied on house prices achieved in 2011 and 2012 given the changes in the market since then? In many cases sale prices are only available for previous years. Will he remove Revenue's recommendation to base house valuation on local asking prices? We know that very often they are way off the mark. I call on the Minister of State to request the Minister for Finance to allow for a refund where a property is mistakenly overvalued and where it subsequently emerges a person has paid too much.

They should be entitled to a refund in those circumstances.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

The points raised by the Deputy will be brought to the attention of the relevant Minister and Department. I welcome the fact that the Deputy has had an opportunity to raise those matters here. I have repeatedly said that it is almost impossible to be accurate concerning house prices. Many efforts have been made and many sources have been employed to obtain guidance that is as accurate as possible, but at the end of the day it is up to people themselves to ascertain what the property is worth. We have used newspaper advertisements and many other sources to indicate that as accurately as possible.

In the area I come from in west Donegal, the indicative value of every house is in the second band of €100,000 to €150,000. Perhaps there are some houses there that are worth more than that, while some may be worth less, but it is just a guide.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Revenue should make that clear then.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I am confident that they come within those guidelines, although I cannot speak for other people obviously. The Deputy believes that the vast majority of people would not come within the indicative guidelines at all.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will the Revenue say that?

Deputy Dinny McGinley

As far as I am concerned, and from what has been indicated, I am happy to come within the guidelines that have been indicated to me. Leaving that aside, what the Deputy has said will be brought to the attention of the Department.

Health Services

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have submitted this Topical Issue seven or eight times before now, so I am pleased that it was selected for today's debate. Like Deputy Shortall, I had hoped that the relevant Minister would have been here. Nonetheless, I hope that the points I wish to make will be brought to the attention of the Minister for Health.

I will cite the example of one child because there is a disproportionately young population in my constituency, as the Acting Chairman, Deputy Wall, will know. It may not be that the same situation pertains throughout the country. It may well be different elsewhere, but my experience is that parents seeking an ear, nose and throat specialist for their children are experiencing considerable delays.

The example concerns a child who is about to enter secondary school in September this year. She is routinely on antibiotics and painkillers because of a chronic problem with tonsils and her sleep has been badly affected. Given that her tonsils are enlarged there is a major restriction in her airways which is contributing to sleeplessness. She has lost weight and is very pale. I have met the youngster and it is appalling to talk to a 12 year old about such health problems. It is pretty grim to reach that stage.

In September 2012, this child was referred by the family's GP to an ear, nose and throat consultant in Tallaght hospital, but was told that it would be 18 months before she would get an appointment. Her GP was then asked to refer her to another hospital and, in January 2013, she was referred to Crumlin hospital. The latter hospital replied stating:

Thank you for your referral to the ENT department. Currently, the outpatients' waiting time is over two years for routine ENT appointments. [That is not for the operation but for a routine appointment]. Accordingly, we are not in a position to accept your referral at this time. We suggest that you consider referring the patient to an alternative service.

The doctor had obviously been ringing around to see if any service could provide that child with a speedier response. We have had much discussion about building a new national children's hospital, but what seems to have gone under the radar is the fact that children requiring fairly minor medical procedures, which impact badly on their health, are not even being seen at the moment.

Other parents have spoken to me about raising loans and trying to get treatment done privately because they find the delay unacceptable. Someone else told me that the size of the tonsils was impacting on a child's ability to form words and is, consequently, in a queue for speech therapy that they may not need.

I raised this matter in March by way of a parliamentary question. I have highlighted the case of one child but a lot more children are affected. I also raised the overuse of antibiotics. If tonsillitis is left untreated it can lead to serious complications, including heart problems in the most extreme circumstances. I am hoping to hear not only that there will be a move to reduce the delays for routine appointments, but also for the procedures to be carried out. It is unacceptable to see children awaiting fairly minor procedures to give them a better quality of life. I have experienced this problem in a number of hospitals, including Crumlin and Tallaght, which suggests that there is a serious difficulty with waiting lists for this particular discipline. I hope the Minister of State will provide me with some comfort in his response.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I am answering this matter on behalf of the Minister who is unavoidably absent. I thank the Deputy for raising the issue of waiting lists for ear, nose and throat specialist consultations.

As the Deputy is aware, improving access to outpatient services is a key priority for the Government. Tackling outpatient waiting lists is the next priority for the special delivery unit established by the Minister for Health in 2011 to unblock access to our acute hospitals.

In 2012, building on work already undertaken by the Health Service Executive and the National Treatment Purchase Fund a national project was initiated to compile, for the first time, an outpatient waiting list database based on patient-level information from individual hospitals.

For the first time, clear data on the OPD waiting list is now being reported. The waiting list for outpatients is updated monthly and is available on www.ntpt.ie. The data show numbers waiting over the various time bands for a first appointment at a consultant-led clinic. In a further enhancement of the reporting, future updates will, for the first time, include numbers reported by specialty, including ENT, in addition to the breakdown by hospital. However, that data is not yet available.

The outpatient waiting list number currently reported, as of 28 March 2013, is 384,632 - slightly lower than the January figure. The data also show that more than half of people on the list are waiting less than six months and almost 75% are waiting less than 12 months.

For 2013, a maximum waiting time target has been set of 12 months for a first-time outpatient appointment and this is reflected in the HSE service plan. This will apply to all patients, including those waiting for ear, nose and throat consultations.

The collation and analysis of outpatient waiting time data in a standardised format, allow resources to be targeted towards those patients who are waiting longest and ensure that they are seen and assessed. Currently, the focus is on hospitals continuing the validation of waiting lists. All hospitals have been engaged in this process which is anticipated to be complete by mid-May 2013. At that point, the SDU will have a better view of the profile of long waiters in terms of their numbers, geographical and specialty distribution.

In parallel with reducing the numbers of longest waiters, an outpatient reform programme is under way with the special delivery unit, the HSE outpatient reform team and the HSE clinical programmes. This overarching programme is examining the structure and operation of outpatient clinics to ensure the right patient is seen and assessed by the right health professional at the right time. Implementation of this programme will ensure a sustainable low-wait environment for outpatient services and prevent the build-up of long waiters. As stated in the strategic framework document, Future Health, one of the key goals of hospital reform is to deliver more responsive and equitable access to vital services for all patients and a key action is the reduction of waiting times. The Government is determined to deliver on this goal.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I would like to meet the person who replied in that way. I will not give that reply to the parents of that 12-year-old child or a few others who have approached me about their children because, to be perfectly honest, this is an academic response. I seek a strategic response and do not simply wish to raise the issue of a single child.

I have been approached by several parents whose children are seeking ear, nose and throat, ENT, appointments and I used one child to portray the predominant picture. The Minister of State informed me that a certain number are waiting less than six months and 75% are waiting less than 12 months. However, I read out a letter to him and informed him this child has been told by Our Lady's Children's Hospital, Crumlin, to go somewhere else because it has a two-year waiting list for an ENT appointment. There is no point in telling me about the special delivery unit or the National Treatment Purchase Fund because, essentially, this child cannot even be seen in order to get onto a list. Can the Minister of State express my dissatisfaction to the Minister with regard to this response, which really does not address the issue at all with regard to ENT?

There is a crisis here for youngsters who cannot get even an appointment and cannot get a fairly minor procedure that would give them a better quality of life, such as having their tonsils removed. I have to hand a letter from Crumlin hospital stating the child cannot get even an appointment because there is a two-year waiting list and telling the general practitioner to find another hospital that might put the child on its list. This simply is not acceptable and that response is just Civil Service-speak, because it does not match the reality of the topic on which I have asked this question. I am deeply unhappy with the response. I will forward to the Minister for Health the letter that was sent to the parent because it outlines very well the deficiency.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I appreciate the Deputy's concern for her constituent and any Member would be concerned for such a case. In this case, I ask the Deputy to furnish the details of the case to the Minister in order that it can be investigated. However, I can only go on the information that has been collected and presented to me, which indicates that more than half the people now are on waiting lists for less than six months and that almost 75% are waiting for less than 12 months. I do not suggest there is not an exception to the case and if what the Deputy has outlined is accurate, there may be an exception to the case. Were she to furnish the details, I certainly would have the matter investigated, no problem.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I raised this as a general issue. While I used that child as a specific example, this is a general issue. She has been turned down and cannot be seen for two years but she is not the only one on the waiting list. I will provide the information to the Minister of State.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

If the Deputy gives me the details, I will see what can be done.