Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 May 2013

Vol. 802 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Timmy Dooley

On Sunday, public transport users are facing industrial action by hard-pressed Bus Éireann workers. As the Tánaiste knows, this action has arisen after 11 long months of deliberations, negotiations and protracted discussions between management, the Labour Court and workers. An impasse has now been reached. State subvention is down by about 15% of the company's turnover, cut dramatically under the Tánaiste's stewardship. It is the lowest level of subvention of any major national public bus company in Europe.

Workers should not be expected to subsidise the cut to the Bus Éireann subvention, and I and most people would have thought Labour in government would ensure this did not happen. The Tánaiste knows that strike action will cause considerable inconvenience to the travelling public who depend on Bus Éireann to get to work, to school and to college. The public is shocked at the apparent approval by the Minister of Bus Éireann's intention to unilaterally impose severe cuts in the pay and conditions of its workforce from Sunday next. Bus Éireann has outlined that it intends to target some €9 million of its €20 million savings target from the pay and conditions of its workforce. While Bus Éireann needs to make savings, the savings sought weigh far too heavily on the workers, who earn on average €33,000 a year. They have families and mortgages, and, like many in society, they are struggling. The Labour Court has stated that the very viability of the transport operator is under threat if something is not done, and that is accepted on this side of the House.

We know Fine Gael wants to privatise our public transport service, of which Bus Éireann is a constituent part. Where does the Labour Party stand on the privatisation of Bus Éireann?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

What about Eircom and Aer Lingus?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is estimated that approximately 114,000 secondary and college-going students will be affected if the dispute spreads to the school transport network. That should bring into stark focus for the Government the seriousness of this issue and demonstrates that action needs to be taken by the Government. Where do the Tánaiste and the Government stand on this issue? Does the Government have a strategy to ensure the public transport network will not let down those who cannot afford private transportation during this impasse? Does the Government intend to intervene between management and staff to try to avoid a strike in the first instance?

The Tánaiste

Bus Éireann is in a very difficult financial position. It has incurred accumulated losses of €27 million in the past five years, a position which is unsustainable and which places the viability of the company at risk.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Timmy was not looking after them well enough.

The Tánaiste

According to the Labour Court and the trade unions' own independent financial assessors, Bus Éireann is in a precarious financial situation with the very viability of the company under threat. According to the Labour Court, significant reductions in the company's cost base, including payroll costs, are essential to ensure its future and protect employment within the company. The issues involved have been the subject of deliberations for 11 months and have been the subject of a Labour Court adjudication. Following this adjudication, there was further engagement with the Labour Relations Commission.

The future of the company needs to be secured for the public who depend on its services and for the benefit of its employees. Bus Éireann runs commercial expressway services, which are currently loss-making, and, legally, the State cannot support these services. The viability of these services can only be secured if these savings are achieved. Bus Éireann has confirmed to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, that the company remains open to engaging with the unions. I very much hope the management and the unions use the period between now and Sunday to engage in further dialogue which can ensure the necessary savings are introduced and the provision of bus services for the public is protected.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Tánaiste. He has set out the company position. One would have thought the Labour Party in government would have looked at the workers' situation.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy has a brass neck.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is all right to talk about the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission but, effectively, what is being unilaterally imposed on the workers, who are on an average of €33,000 a year, is a hit of €3,000. That is a phenomenal amount from the pay packets of these individuals and their families. It is not bonus pay. It is all right to talk about core pay, overtime, time and a half and all that goes with it. However, a €3,000 cut to the core pay of these individuals is not sustainable. Does the Tánaiste want to put more people into hock by saying "We have to protect the company"? He should go back and fight the case at Government for increased subvention, if the Labour Party believes in the public service obligation and in the principle of an appropriate transport network.

Deputy Eric Byrne

It is Fianna Fáil that put the country into hock.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

They did it at Aer Lingus.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We know where Fine Gael stands. It looks after the people over €100,000.

A Deputy

We know where Fianna Fáil stands.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is Fianna Fáil that ruined the country.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I would have thought the Labour Party in government would look after those on €30,000 a year but the Tánaiste seems to have just bought the company line, and he is prepared to come in here and trot it out, with no reference whatsoever to the workers.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I look across the line of Labour people here. Many of them have worked as trade union officials-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please put his question?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

They have turned their back on the workers and on the trade union movement. It is a disgrace they are not prepared to fight for a greater level of investment for the company to ensure it can continue to provide a public transport service.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eric Byrne

They put the country into hock.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the House settle down and listen to the reply?

The Tánaiste

This Government is committed to the public transport service.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Privatised or public.

The Tánaiste

Public. That is why we want to keep Bus Éireann in existence. Does the Deputy understand that?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I do, but who does the Tánaiste expect to drive the buses?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Deputy Dooley should come down off his soap box.

The Tánaiste

The viability of the company is at risk-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What about the viability of the workers?

The Tánaiste

The Deputy should listen to the answer.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Deputy Dooley should fall off his soap box.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies quieten down? I would like to hear the answer as well as everybody else. We have just one minute for the reply.

The Tánaiste

The viability of Bus Éireann is at risk. It is losing money. It has lost €27 million in the past five years and that cannot continue.

If Bus Éireann does not continue to exist, the people who work in it will not have jobs. We want to protect the company, the services it provides and the employment it provides to those who work in it. In order to achieve that, the company must be secured. This has been the subject of discussion and negotiation for 11 months and is now the subject of a Labour Court recommendation. What the company is doing is implementing the Labour Court recommendation, which has been the subject of discussion over a long period of time. This is now about the viability of the company. The question of the viability of the company is itself accepted by the assessors engaged by the trade unions to look at this.

We have a period of time between now and the weekend in which further discussions can take place. The company has made it clear that it is available to have those discussions either directly with the unions or with the assistance of the Labour Court or the Labour Relations Commission. I hope such discussions will take place and that industrial action can be averted, but we all need to understand that what is at stake here is the continued existence of Bus Éireann. Deputy Dooley coming in here and crying crocodile tears will be no use to anybody if this company fails and the people in it lose their jobs.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This morning I wish to raise the issue of access to resource teaching hours for children with Down's syndrome. Down's syndrome is by its nature complex and affects intellectual ability, speech, language, hearing, memory, vision, motor skills and general health. As I am sure the Tánaiste understands, Down's syndrome seriously affects a child's ability to engage with the school curriculum. The rate in Ireland is one in every 546 births. That means that about 120 children are born with Down's syndrome each year, and approximately 80 begin mainstream primary education.

Down's syndrome is by definition a complex low-incidence disorder, yet, remarkably, it is not one of the 11 low-incidence disabilities that qualify for resource teaching hours. Prior to 2005, all children with Down's syndrome received resource teaching hours, but since then children with Down's syndrome who have IQ scores in the mild range of learning disability have not qualified for specifically allocated resource teaching hours.

This is an important issue that affects no more than about 24 to 30 children each year. It could be easily resolved by simply adding Down's syndrome to the list of low-incidence disabilities. It is a small number of children but the kind of support that would be afforded to those children could literally transform their lives and learning experiences. What does the Tánaiste plan to do to address this issue? Will he speak with the Minister for Education and Skills and is he prepared to come back to the Dáil with a proposal to address unfair discrimination against a group of children with Down's syndrome?

The Tánaiste

I know that Down Syndrome Ireland organised a briefing in Leinster House earlier this week for Members at which it made the case that Down's syndrome should be regarded as a disability in its own right and that children with Down's syndrome should qualify automatically for additional resource hours and assistance in the education system. I was unable to attend the briefing but have received a report on it. The Minister for Education and Skills is already addressing the issues that were raised in the briefing. He has asked the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to provide expert independent and evidence-informed policy on the education of children and others with disabilities. This will include the issue of whether Down's syndrome should be reclassified as a low-incidence disability in all instances regardless of assessed cognitive ability.

This advice from the NCSE on how the education system can best support children with special educational needs is expected to be published in the coming weeks. I do not think we should pre-empt what that expert advice will be because the NCSE is an organisation with the greatest expertise in this area and has been asked to consider this policy issue. I assure the Deputy and the House that the Government is very conscious that meeting students' educational needs is a paramount consideration and must be kept at the centre of any proposals and recommendations. As the Deputy is aware, the Government continues to spend €1.3 billion each year supporting the education of children with special needs. We are committed to continuing to explore how best to improve their experiences and educational outcomes. We have heard the case that has been made by Down Syndrome Ireland and, as I have said, the Minister is already addressing the issues that have been raised.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am sure the central concern for all of us is to ensure that all our children have the best educational opportunities and supports. I am sure the Tánaiste will agree with me that in the case of a child with a disability - for these purposes, Down's syndrome - our duty is all the greater because the need of the child is greater. I am glad to hear that the Minister will have a report on the general issue of children with disabilities and how supports for them are provided, but this is a very specific instance. Until 2005, each child with Down's syndrome was in receipt of teaching resource supports. Since then, a group of those children with Down's syndrome has been denied that very basic support.

I fully appreciate that policy must be based on evidence and expertise but I put it to the Tánaiste that Down Syndrome Ireland has considerable expertise in this area and that until 2005, the State recognised that each child with Down's syndrome required resource support. It was wrong for the previous Administration to withdraw that and it is essential for this Administration to put things right. It affects a very small number of children but should the Government do the right thing, it would make a significant difference to those children and families. Will the Tánaiste let us know at what stage he or the Minister for Education and Skills proposes to deal with this specific issue and to reassure all of us in the Dáil that these resource hours will be afforded to every child with Down's syndrome?

The Tánaiste

As I said earlier, we have heard the case made by Down Syndrome Ireland. As the Deputy said, this organisation does know what it is talking about from experience, and we take that very seriously. I was unable to attend the briefing but received a report from my parliamentary colleagues who did attend. We are addressing it. I repeat that the assessment being carried out by the NCSE will include the issue of whether Down's syndrome should be reclassified as a low-incidence disability in all instances regardless of assessed cognitive ability. The case made by Down Syndrome Ireland is being addressed by the Minister. He expects to be in a position to publish the policy advice in the coming weeks, so we are not talking about a prolonged period of time. We have heard the case that has been made and it is being addressed. There is a process through which the Minister is looking at it. The issue of Down's syndrome is very much part of that process and we should wait to see what is that expert advice.

He will publish it in a matter of weeks. We heard the case made by Down Syndrome Ireland to the all-party group at a meeting earlier this week.

Deputy Clare Daly

There is a certain tragic irony in the situation that as we sit here this morning, homeowners in Priory Hall are before the courts down the road, as Dublin City Council seeks to get out of the responsibility of paying temporary accommodation for families who had the misfortune of purchasing a home in Priory hell. These families have lived on the knife-edge for hundreds of days in insecure accommodation while continuing to pay a mortgage on buildings that are only fit to be knocked down. It is ironic that 100 years ago in this city, James Connolly, the former leader of the Tánaiste's party, fought against tenement buildings. Now, on his watch, homeowners are being treated like evacuees, paying money for properties that are death traps and a health hazard. Is it not ironic that James Connolly campaigned against William Martin Murphy and Independent Newspapers, as the mouthpiece of the employers? On the Tánaiste's watch, the new William Martin O'Brien and Independent News and Media, get a bailout of €60 million at the taxpayers' expense. It is a real case of history repeating itself but this time around, the Tánaiste, who claims to stand in the legacy of Connolly, is on the wrong side of the barricades.

It must have been pretty nauseating to take a lecture from Fianna Fáil about workers' rights and bus workers' rights but it was even more nauseating to hear his response. He could have been Bus Éireann management; he could have been Fianna Fáil when they were on his side of the House. I ask the Tánaiste to explain the journey he has made onto the side of IBEC. The nation was treated to the views of IBEC earlier in the week when that organisation told us it wanted an end to austerity because it had gone far enough. This sounded good until one read the small print. What IBEC was actually talking about was making sure there would be no austerity for its members. IBEC said, "By all means, continue with the austerity on hard-pressed homeowners, fleece them for a home tax, go after them for a water tax." When low and middle-income earners had nothing else to give, IBEC said: "Do not go after the high-earners." Instead, it argued that the Government should go after public sector workers once again. It was ably assisted in that argument by his party colleague, Deputy Howlin, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

On what planet is the Tánaiste living? Maybe it is the one where people like David Begg, who is on €140,000, put forward the prospect for the unions to be realistic.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please put your question, Deputy Daly, as we are over time.

Deputy Clare Daly

Is it realistic for low-paid public sector workers, who have already had their salaries reduced by 22%, to see them reduced further? Does he think it realistic for unions to go into a process where their members will come out worse off? Would it not be more realistic for the Tánaiste to target the increased number of millionaires who have got richer on his watch by progressively taxing them as he said he would? Would that not be something that a party that says it represents workers should do?

The Tánaiste

I get the impression that Deputy Daly does not think very highly of me.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Tánaiste should not take it personally.

The Tánaiste

I will deal first with the Deputy's specific question as to whether I support low-paid workers taking a further cut. I do not support that. That is why the agreement proposed to the trade unions did not propose a cut in pay for low-paid workers. The cuts in pay proposed are graduated above a certain level. It is also the reason this Government reinstated the cut in the national minimum wage which was imposed by the previous Government. It is also the reason we legislated to reintroduce the joint labour committee system after it was struck down by the High Court. We recognise that people who are in low-paid employment need to have a statutory framework within which their pay and conditions are protected. This Government has not reduced the basic rates of social welfare payment, something that was done by the previous Government. It is the reason this Government took more than 300,000 people out of the universal social charge. These are the people on the lowest level of pay. When it comes to protecting people who are on low pay, this Government has taken repeated action and shows exactly where it stands even in difficult circumstances.

Of course, the issue of pay only arises if one has a job. That is why the Government's priority is to ensure the protection of existing jobs. We have pursued policies which have not involved - as is the case in other countries - compulsory redundancies for those working in the public services. We want to protect those companies employing people in the public transport system, for example. We do not want to see Bus Éireann fail financially, which would result in the loss of jobs. It is also the reason we are pursuing an economic strategy which is aimed at encouraging investment in this country by companies who establish subsidiaries here and who employ Irish workers. I am very pleased to see that over the course of recent times we have been successful in this regard. Last week alone, for example, more than 2,000 new jobs have been announced and more than 1,000 additional jobs were created in the private sector over the past 12 months. There has been a turn in the numbers of people who are at work. However, it is not fast enough; we want to see a lot more done in terms of additional jobs. It is the reason we have put such an emphasis on youth unemployment. Young people who are leaving schools and colleges cannot get the jobs for which they are qualified. We obtained European Union agreement for the youth guarantee which is supported by a youth investment fund of €6 billion. It is all to do with ensuring that people have jobs, that those jobs are secure and are not put at risk and that the best possible pay and conditions apply to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

A supplementary question, please, Deputy Daly.

Deputy Clare Daly

Of course I have nothing against the Tánaiste personally. The point I was trying to make was that he appears to be considerably out of touch with the reality on the ground. His very reference to the idea of youth unemployment being dealt with by his Government is masked by the fact that more than 300,000 people have been driven from our shores over the past four years.

The fact that the Tánaiste is out of touch is revealed by the fact that workers in jobs in the public sector, who are glad to be in jobs, have said clearly, both in the public sector and in Bus Éireann, that they can give no more. The issue is that there is never only one way to deal with a problem. While workers' pay and conditions have been decimated, the number of billionaires in Ireland has almost doubled since the crisis. The number of millionaires has gone up to 751 and the number of people earning over €300,000 - very few of them are in the public service - has increased to almost 10,000 people. Is it not the case that a party that says it stands on the side of ordinary people should see its role as tackling inequality rather than accelerating it? Should the Tánaiste not be dealing with taxing wealth rather than decimating workers' conditions? That was my question.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Does that apply to the banks?

Deputy Eric Byrne

Not if people are not living in a reality.

Deputy Joan Collins

Those workers live in reality.

The Tánaiste

I have already dealt with one end of the equation, which is what this Government has done. It is very easy to say it. It is not a case of what we say; it is also a case of what we do. I have outlined to the Deputy and the House very clearly what this Government has done in order to protect the pay and conditions of people who are low-paid workers. The same applies to the issue of wealth. In the budget, this Government introduced the largest package of taxes on wealth that I can recall in my time in this House. We have introduced a property tax with an additional tax on properties over €1 million.

I drive past some of those properties and I see the posters that the Deputy's party has put up for their consideration. These posters advise them not to pay the property tax. It is very easy to come in here and bemoan and complain about millionaires and then put up a sign on their road telling them that they should not pay the property tax.

Deputy Joan Collins

It is a family home tax.

The Tánaiste

It is what one does. Saying something is one thing and doing it is another. That is the difference between what Deputy Daly represents and what the Labour Party represents in government. We act to resolve problems and make things better rather than to go on shouting about them forever.