Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 May 2013

Vol. 803 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

Commercial Rates Calculations

Deputy John Deasy

I tabled this matter due to the level of uncertainty regarding the setting of commercial rates following the announcement of the abolition of town councils and the amalgamation of certain local authorities. I started by submitting a parliamentary question, in which I asked the Department to list all of the country's annual rates on valuations, ARVs. There are extraordinary differences between some commercial rate levels, even within the same county. For example, Donegal County Council's ARV is almost €70 whereas Buncrana Town Council's is approximately €44. Can businesses in Buncrana expect their commercial rate levels to increase to county council levels? The same situation obtains in my home town, in that Dungarvan has an ARV of €60 whereas Waterford County Council has an ARV of €70. The administration in Dungarvan is well-run and efficient and has been able to keep commercial rates at a reasonable level for many years. Businesses in my home town are asking me whether they will be penalised for that efficiency.

I have also raised this matter at the Committee of Public Accounts. The response I received was that the rates would be harmonised at the lower level where possible. That is fair enough, but we need clarity. The Minister has indicated his intention to move towards the lower rate.

Businesses are generally facing trouble, in what I would call a triple whammy. There may be an increase in commercial rates due to local government reform; many businesses pay commercial variable rates, which seemingly increase every few months and are reaching dangerous levels; and the Valuation Office is revaluing businesses and commercial premises. It has done so in Dublin and Limerick and is now doing so in Waterford. Many businesses will have different valuation rates applied to their properties. If they have extended, some will find themselves facing larger bills.

Before the last election, Fine Gael's policy was not to increase commercial rates. We also instructed councillors on various authorities to freeze commercial rates in order to restore competitiveness and help businesses through the recession. We must be conscious of our policy and acknowledge what has happened since, that is, the worsening of the recession.

Generally speaking, it comes down to, for example, the cost to a business in a town council area such as Dungarvan. If the businesses lose the town council, they will therefore lose representation. Given that they are losing, it would not be proper to ask them to pay anything extra. The slogan in America in the 1750s and 1760s was “No taxation without representation”. We must be careful. If we are taking representation from people, we cannot ask them for more money for the privilege. That might be a mistake. I hope the Minister will provide clarity on the issue. My question to him is simple. Will businesses in town council areas such as Dungarvan or businesses in local authority areas that are to be amalgamated see an increase in their commercial rates due to local government reform?

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank Deputy Deasy for the opportunity to set out the position on local government reform in the context of rates and the difficulties small businesses currently endure, and also the need to provide clarity on the matters raised.

The action programme for effective local government, Putting People First, which was published on 16 October 2012, sets out Government decisions on a range of measures relating to local government structures, functions, funding, governance and operational matters. Chapter 6 of the programme sets out policy decisions to replace town councils with a new comprehensive model of municipal governance based around principal towns to strengthen local government within counties and address weaknesses and anomalies in the current system. Key features of the new arrangements are also detailed, including governance, civic roles and an indicative listing of reserved functions of elected members at municipal district level.

Implementation of the reform programme is proceeding on a number of fronts. The local electoral area boundary committee has been reviewing local electoral boundaries, having regard to the results of census 2011 and the policy decisions announced in the action programme. The committee is to report no later than 31 May 2013 and its recommendations will provide the basis for the configuration and membership of the new municipal districts. The action programme for effective local government indicates that in the context of reorganisation of local governance structures, the proposed new municipal districts will provide an opportunity to achieve a more coherent approach to rates and charges on a county-wide basis, having regard to funding requirements and the need to support employment and business competitiveness.

The programme proposes rates harmonisation to cater for differences between annual rates on valuation, ARV, of towns and counties. My approach to rates harmonisation will seek to ensure harmonisation does not lead to any increase in commercial rates in any county. Accordingly, I assure Deputy Deasy that the purpose of savings that will arise from the merger of the two local authorities in Waterford is to reduce the cost of providing services to businesses and consumers. The levying of commercial rates, which Deputy Deasy is aware will be a matter for councillors elected after the next local elections, is a reserved function of councils. There should be no increase in commercial rates in Dungarvan arising from the merger of both local authorities. If it is the will of the councillors to do otherwise, that will run contrary to my policy.

Deputy John Deasy

The Minister has answered the question. Clarity was required on the issue and the Minister has provided it. He has made it clear what will happen in the case of Dungarvan or any town council. This is a also big issue in Cork and throughout the country. Because of local government reform, the abolition of town councils and the amalgamation of various local authorities, the rumour mill has led to suggestions that the commercial rates of businesses will increase because of the local government reform initiative. The Minister has made it very clear that will not be the case and that the reform initiative will not lead to a commercial rates hike. That is good news. I appreciate the Minister’s response.

Deputy Phil Hogan

As Deputy Deasy is aware, as Opposition spokesperson on the environment in 2009 – sometimes queried by members of my own party – I initiated a process to persuade local councillors to freeze or reduce commercial rates. That is the rationale behind the local government reform initiative. At a time when small businesses and commercial ratepayers generally are carrying the can, in particular in rural constituencies, in terms of providing the necessary funding for the provision of services, it is not acceptable in the context of the difficulties SMEs are going through and given the Government’s policy to promote employment opportunities through SMEs, that we would implement a policy that would place an additional rates burden on businesses. That is not what is intended by local government reform.

Even though variations exist in the annual rates on valuation within counties – Dungarvan and Waterford are a case in point – what is intended in the merger of the two authorities in Waterford as part of the new municipal district concept is that there would be harmonisation of rates to the lower level within each county. That is the pro-employment, pro-efficiency agenda I wish to pursue with local government reform. Already we are in the process of saving €500 million. That money is now available within the local government system due to shared services, better procurement and a reduction of 8,000 employed in the local government sector. The savings must be passed on to consumers and businesses alike to ensure they are competitive and that they are assisted in these difficult times, when the disposable income of individuals is not as great as it should be, to provide the necessary footfall for businesses on high streets and main streets and also to provide disposable income for purchases that are necessary for those SMEs. I agree with Deputy Deasy’s sentiments. I also agree with what he said about Dungarvan specifically. I will work to achieve that objective.

Deputy John Deasy

I thank the Minister.

Food Safety Standards Regulation

Deputy Michael McNamara

Small food businesses have assumed a new importance at a time when the creation and maintenance of one or two jobs might be the difference between a family staying in this country or emigrating. That was recognised by the Government in that one of its first initiatives was to reduce VAT paid by people in small food businesses to enable them to become more competitive. It was a relatively modest jobs proposal but it has shown benefit already. We have an increase in employment, albeit small. While it is not of the scale we wish to see, nevertheless, this sector is providing an increased number of jobs.

The issue I raise is whether we require the level of regulation, inspection and enforcement in respect of small, household, family-run food businesses, or if a less strict regime is possible without compromising public health. There is now a trend across Europe towards simplifying legislation under the banner of “smarter rules for safer food”. Earlier this month, Tonio Borg, the European Commissioner for Health and Consumer Policy announced a legislative package which aims to prevent the spread of communicable, animal-based diseases and foreign pests to European crops, and to simplify the large number of measures governing food safety in the European Union, a package that would reduce food safety legislation from the current 70 laws to five to ease compliance. In this regard I suggest that the Government should examine existing legislation, both national and EU-derived, to see whether we could introduce a new statutory instrument to bring all the legislation together and codify the various strands of legislation involving numerous State agencies.

Undoubtedly, significant and overly cumbersome demands are placed on small food businesses. Farmers’ markets operate throughout the country in which people sell produce from their own kitchen. Are they to be subjected to this level of registration? Surely there is a labelling mechanism by which people could be told that a product was produced in the home and that one would not expect it to be produced in compliance with the same standards that apply, for example, to McDonalds, which operates across continents. It is a question of labelling. The European Commission is beginning to acknowledge that what we need is better labelling. There must be an element of caveat emptor – let the buyer beware.

I will give the Minister an example.

Deputy Dooley would know the food business to which I am referring because it is located in the part of the county that he and I are from. I will not name the business because it would be improper of me to do so. A review of that business on TripAdvisor, written by a visitor from Caledonia in New York, reads: "Even though busy when we arrived we were given prompt, friendly service and a very good, reasonably priced meal." Another review, posted in February 2013 by a visitor from Yuma, Arizona, reads: "I only had a small sampling of their food, but it was enough for me to go again if I'm ever in the area." That particular business employes numerous students in east Clare. Indeed, it is a very valuable source of employment in the area. Fast forward several months and the same business receives an order from the HSE, under the European Communities (Official Control of Foodstuffs) Regulations 2010, SI 117 of 2010, ordering that the vegetable store and the fuel store only be closed. For the love of God, the fuel store, that is, the place where the fuel is stored, is closed by the HSE. Has it nothing better to do? Has this Government any intention to simplify the regulations that apply to such small businesses?

Deputy Phil Hogan

I wish to apologise on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, who is unable to respond to this issue personally.

As Deputy McNamara has indicated, the success of Ireland's food sector can be attributed in no small part to our reputation as a provider of safe, high-quality food. This reputation has been copperfastened by the speed of our reaction to recent incidents involving equine contamination of meat and dioxin contamination of pork products. It is important, therefore, for us to ensure Irish products are checked regularly and any deficiencies addressed to maintain Ireland's reputation as a world-class provider of high-quality, safe food.

The contribution of small and medium enterprises, SMEs, is fundamental to the success of the Irish food industry. Over 90% of Irish food business operators fall into this category. With much of our food safety legislation developed at EU level, the Departments of Health, and Agriculture, Food and the Marine at all times look to ensure that the needs of SMEs are taken into account fully when discussing legislation at EU working group level. This has resulted in certain exemptions being set for smaller companies in such areas as labelling and food hygiene and reduced regulatory requirements applying to a range of small businesses, including butchers and retail caterers.

Detailed guidance notes for SMEs have also been developed and published by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland covering such matters as the implementation of hazard analysis and critical control point, HACCP, principles. In line with this Government's aim to substantially reduce the administrative burden on SMEs, the FSAI has also introduced as much as possible online facilities in respect of many of its services. The FSAI has developed guidance for agencies to reduce the number of cases where food businesses were supervised by more than one set of food safety inspectors. This cross-agency guidance has succeeded in clarifying supervision arrangements and reduced the regulatory burden directly. The FSAI has also developed a number of fora through which SMEs can provide feedback on issues such as regulation, including the food service forum, the retail forum and the artisan food producers forum. Perhaps the business to which Deputy McNamara referred might take the opportunity to link in to one or more of these fora. Regulatory issues are discussed at these fora and the options for flexibility in meeting legal requirements are explored. It is also worth pointing out that Ireland does not charge the food industry for the costs of official controls, except where such charges are mandatory.

I will bring the matter that Deputy McNamara has raised to the attention of the Minister for Health and of the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Perry, who has responsibility for small business and regulatory controls.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister for his very positive and constructive reply. Undoubtedly, good food, good hygiene and honest labelling are essential to consumer confidence and must be maintained. However, the complexity of the legislation and reporting which is required from very small businesses must be examined. I know of a person quite close to my home who was making home-made brown bread but the HSE closed the business down because the kitchen was too small. It was just a kitchen in a home but if it is home-made brown bread, where does the HSE think it is going to be made other than in a home?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael McNamara

This is a matter of labelling and clearly stating that something is home-produced, like eggs, for example. I remember, as a child, when too many eggs were produced on the farm in the summer, they were brought to the local co-op to be sold. Obviously, we were not subjected to the same degree of regulation or maybe we were but acted unlawfully in selling off those extra eggs. If we did, I do not think we did anything wrong. While I acknowledge that regulation is required, we cannot go too far without strangling small businesses. We need to allow food businesses, particularly small kitchen enterprises, to develop.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I subscribe to the sentiments expressed by Deputy McNamara. It is a constant battle to reduce the regulatory approach that some of our agencies take in respect of small businesses, particularly in the food sector. Deputies in the House from rural constituencies will share my view that it is often difficult to explain to small businesses why so many inspections take place in the food area. However, there is a price to be paid if we do not get things right vis-à-vis food and hygiene, as was shown in recent times. The fora to which I referred earlier can provide businesses with an ideal opportunity to bring these matters to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, and the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly.

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Staff

Deputy Timmy Dooley

As the Minister knows, there is serious concern regarding the delay in bringing forward amending legislation to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act to modernise the senior management structure in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service and, in particular, the method of appointment of staff. This concern is particularly acute in view of the fact that the most senior position, that of Clerk of the Dáil, essentially the Secretary General or CEO of this House, is due to become vacant this summer.

Modernising legislation was promised as far back as 2009. Indeed, the then Minister for Finance, when moving the Second Stage of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill in 2009, teed up changes to the management structure of the House as set out in the Staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas Act of 1959. More recently, in December 2012, the Minister of State, Deputy Alex White, speaking on behalf of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, referred to the fact that the configuration in that Act, particularly in senior structures, needed to be modernised. He went on to say that "the Minister is committed to ensuring, in co-operation with the Commission, that the administrative structures of the Oireachtas do not become out of step with Civil Service norms in terms of adapting flexibly to the needs and demands of modern management practices". The Minister of State also said:

I also wish to advise Members that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform intends to bring forward legislation early in 2013 to ensure the modernisation of the senior management structures of the Oireachtas service. These are specifically recognised in the Staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas Act 1959. It is accepted that the configuration in that Act, particularly in terms of senior management structures, needs to be modernised.

The Minister of State also said that "while it is recognised that significant modernisation has taken place, the statutory framework in the 1959 Act does not reflect this and needs to be modernised".

That was put on the record of the House in December 2012. Time has gone by since then and it is quite clear that no legislation will be in place for the upcoming appointment, when the current Clerk of the Dáil retires later this year. The expectation was, based on the Minister's direction, that such amending legislation would have been brought forward by now.

As the Minister knows, the appointment of each officer of the Houses of the Oireachtas involves the Chairman of the House, having consulted the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, recommending a candidate for appointment by the Taoiseach. This process ensures there is little or no flexibility in assignments to any of these positions and such a person cannot be transferred within the Houses of the Oireachtas Service. In my view, this has proved to be a major stumbling block in achieving flexibility and reassignment of functions within the Houses of the Oireachtas management structure. While the problem is not as acute now, with the appointment of two assistant secretaries, neither of whom are officers of the House, it is necessary to remove the anomaly created. This should be done as quickly as possible. It is an outdated function. The Minister is well aware there is no obvious provision for somebody from outside the House to apply for the job in the first instance. The Ceann Comhairle, in consultation with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, must look within the staff of the Oireachtas at a particular time and has no capacity to seek external assistance, as is the norm for top level appointments in the Civil Service.

I ask the Minister to bring forward the amending legislation without delay so that the next appointment, that of a replacement for the outgoing Clerk of the Dáil, can be done under newer legislation, thereby broadening the capacity for others to apply for the job, in line with the appointment of other Secretaries General in various Departments.

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brendan Howlin)

I thank Deputy Dooley for his statement - much of which I agree with - on what is a very important issue for Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. As the Deputy has rightly said, during the passage of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2009, reference was made to the Government's commitment to ensuring, in co-operation with the commission, that the administrative structure of the Oireachtas does not become out of step with Civil Service norms in terms of adapting flexibly to the needs and demands of modern management systems.

As Deputy Dooley correctly noted, during the passage of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012, my colleague the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Alex White, advised Members that it was intended to bring forward legislation in 2013 to ensure the modernisation of the senior management structures of the Houses of the Oireachtas Service. The existing arrangements for the filling of officer of the House posts in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service, such as that of Clerk of the Dáil, means, as the Deputy has rightly pointed out, that an external candidate may only be appointed where no internal candidate is deemed suitable. This is completely out of kilter with the top level appointments committee, TLAC, system which incorporates nomination by boards comprising a majority of members from the private sector with specific skills in management and human resources. This format provides considerable opportunities for new blood to be introduced into organisations throughout the public service, and this has been mirrored by the introduction by the Government of a senior public service mobility programme throughout the public service. This has already been availed of in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service at assistant secretary level.

I believe the objective in filling top posts of the Houses of the Oireachtas service should be to employ professionally organised and independent competitive selection mechanisms such as those that exist throughout the wider Civil Service to ensure the best possible person is selected from as wide a pool of talent as possible to lead the parliamentary service in future. In fact, changes to the current system have been foreshadowed by recent appointments to assistant secretary positions in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service being made on the basis that the duties of the posts would subsume those of the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad once the incumbents have vacated their positions. It should be noted that the filling of two assistant secretary positions in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service in 2006 and 2010, respectively, were as a result of TLAC open competitions. Each of these posts was sanctioned by the then Minister for Finance on the basis of achieving a modernising programme in the Houses of the Oireachtas Service.

I am on record as being committed to ensuring, in co-operation with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, that the administrative structures of the Oireachtas do not become out of step with Civil Service norms in terms of adopting flexibly to the needs and demands of modern management practices. Legislation which would change the management structure at the Houses of the Oireachtas Service and have the chief executive of the service selected from as wide a pool as possible in line with top level appointments in the Civil Service generally is being considered in my Department. I hope to have discussions soon with the Ceann Comhairle and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, as appropriate, and I will be bringing in legislation to Government immediately thereafter.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome the Minister's clarification and the reaffirmation of his desire to modernise the way in which appointments are made here. The Clerk of the Dáil will retire over the summer. Will the Minister's legislation be in place to ensure the broadest number of candidates will be in a position to apply for this position? Is it the expectation of the Minister that the position will be filled under the 1959 Act? Let us be clear how the 1959 Act applies. The appointment is effectively done by the Ceann Comhairle with reference to the commission and with confirmation by the Taoiseach. The Minister has accepted and identified that it is an outdated practice, and I welcome that. Will the Minister give the House a clear commitment that the Government will not utilise or allow the utilisation of the 1959 Act for the filling of the vacancy due to arise during the summer? Will the Minister give a commitment that the legislation will be in place to remove any doubt in respect of the way in which the position is filled?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I cannot pre-empt the decisions of Government or the Oireachtas in that regard but that is my ambition. The legislation is drafted. However, as a matter of courtesy, I have held preliminary discussions with the Ceann Comhairle on this matter but I wish to have further discussions with him and with the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad on the legislation generally. I am keen to do that soon but, unfortunately, I have been preoccupied by several other issues in recent weeks. I am keen to see that legislation before the Houses as soon as possible.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome that confirmation but I wonder about the necessity to enter into a dialogue.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is a matter of courtesy.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I accept it is a courtesy but surely the Minister will accept and agree that the decision has been taken in principle. The Government has committed to it. Surely the offices of Cathaoirleach and Ceann Comhairle must accept the direction in that regard. While I understand the need for courtesies, we are on a tight timeline. Over and above the courtesies, there is a requirement to ensure the best available pool of people are in a position to apply for this job. Therefore, I call on the Minister to ensure, at least, that the timeline is in place to allow it to happen.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I am old-fashioned in these matters. As a matter of courtesy I believe I should explain my position. It has been the subject of discussions between services in the Department of Finance, as was, and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as is, and the official services here. I have held preliminary discussions with the Ceann Comhairle. I wish to conclude that process and then bring legislation to Government and, I hope, to the Houses speedily. I imagine it will not be challenging legislation. We may have all-party agreement to have it enacted quickly once we introduce it.

FÁS Local Training Initiatives Expenditure

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this important issue. I feel I am repeating my words because on 27 September 2012, I raised the same questions. There may have been a different context because it related to workers getting paid proper redundancy, but I referred to the ongoing scandal of the abandoned hostel project in Tipperary town. I gather Pobal, FÁS and the Garda Síochána are conducting investigations, but this has been going on for three and a half years. I was informed on 27 September, eight months ago, that we could expect some results soon. At the time, we were promised the FÁS report by April 2013, but now we have been told it will not be available until the summer. This beggars belief in a modern-day democracy with accountability.

I am pleased the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Cannon, is here today. This was a fantastic project which was the brainchild of and organised by a committee. Exemplary work had been carried out by FÁS participants under a community initiative scheme in Tipperary town. Tremendous work was carried out and this project was nine tenths finished. Unfortunately, greed or whatever got involved and questions were raised over moneys. These are not my words but the words of an official from FÁS, whose report stated that an estimated €150,000 in grant money was incorrectly drawn down. That was the phrase used. Incorrectly drawn down could mean many things. I have seen cases throughout the country where small sums of money have been misappropriated. I have seen former Members of the House being arrested and hauled into court for small sums of money, perhaps only several hundred euro, and rightly so if there was any wrongdoing. However, it is remarkable that a case of misappropriation of funding to the tune of €150,000 could drag on for three and a half years. I raised this with Ministers in the previous Government who were carrying out investigations.

I salute Pobal and FÁS for the amount of funding they put into many valued and inspiring projects in Tipperary town and county. We want this to continue because we have a great reserve and resource of community-driven people in the town who want to work on these initiatives. I could name those involved but I will not because they are many and varied. However, this is tainting the good work of everyone involved in Tipperary town. It beggars belief that three and a half years have passed but there has been no result from the investigations as of yet.

What is the Minister of State hiding? What is being hidden from the public? Moneys were misappropriated. The chairman and four members of the board resigned because of the irregularities they uncovered in April 2010. The chairman reported to the Garda that his name was falsified on documents. That has been accepted but no action has been taken. The building is lying idle despite an investment of €4 million. Worse still, the good names of the members of the board who resigned have been left hanging in the air with allegations, innuendo, suggestions and implications. It is simply not acceptable.

I held a meeting recently with Councillor Mary Hanna Hourigan and Maurice Crotty, two concerned people. I salute the bravery of Councillor Hourigan in raising this several times in spite of being told to leave it alone because it was not something to be talked about. She raised the matter with Chief Superintendent Keogh of the Thurles district. Thankfully, she has reinvigorated and reinitiated the Garda investigation. I thank and salute her. I hope we get to the bottom of this. I compliment the officers who have been appointed. I have great faith and trust in them.

However, this is shameful. It is three and a half years later and this has been left hanging. We must have openness and transparency. The troika is watching everything we do.

Someone needs to be watching what we do if €100,000 of taxpayers' money can be incorrectly drawn down. That is fraud, it is common criminality and should not have happened. I am chairman of a CE scheme and the board once spent three hours at a meeting trying to explain a €20 underspend, and rightly so because accountability is only right and proper. This, however, makes a mockery of all the other projects in the State and the voluntary boards of directors. Above all, it is an insult to the former chairman, the board members, the staff and the community.

The truth must be brought out here. I am not worth my salt in this House if I do not expose this wrongdoing in my own county. I am delighted the gardaí have restarted the investigation but what about the Pobal investigation and the FÁS investigation?

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

The Tipperary hostel project, under the then FÁS jobs initiative programme, was involved in the transformation of a Famine-era workhouse in Tipperary town into self-catering accommodation for tourists. This was overseen by a development company, Tipperary Hostel Limited. The company was primarily funded through Pobal, a not-for-profit organisation that manages funding programmes on behalf of the Government, with a manpower element provided by FÁS through the jobs initiative programme.

In June 2010 as a result of findings from an audit report into the project, FÁS decided to discontinue funding to the jobs initiative at Tipperary hostel. An investigation is ongoing into the findings of the audit report into the Tipperary hostel project. This investigation is expected to be completed by the end of June. It may be that the matter will then be referred to the Garda. The Deputy will understand that I cannot comment or speculate on the possible findings or outcomes from these investigations at this time.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I understand the Minister's last comments. I would not expect him to do anything that might upset the investigation. If the Minister of State has any respect for me or for his position, however, he would not come in here and tell me three and half years later what is happening. FÁS is well aware of what went on, FÁS participants have testified to officials about how their names were forged on documents and sick pay was drawn down for one individual.

The bottom line is honesty, openness, transparency and good governance, and the implications for taxpayers must be dealt with. FÁS says the matter might be passed on to the Garda but it is already in the hands of the Garda. Why is FÁS unable or unwilling to deal with this in its investigation? It has a duty to deal with it because a huge amount of taxpayers' money was involved and a wonderful project is lying idle with the crows flying in and out of it while innuendo permeates the town.

This must be cleared up. The Minister must go back to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, about the Pobal investigation. It would not happen in a country run by a junta, where there would be no answers three and a half years later and the truth would not be uncovered, no matter who it might embarrass. Who is holding back this investigation and why? I have heard all sorts of rumours.

I salute those brave people who are trying to get this finished. I salute the former chairman, Mr. Martin Quinn, for being awarded Tipperary person of the year at the event on 18 May. I wish him well following his recent illness but the truth must out and wrongdoing must be exposed. The person who did wrong must be prosecuted and we must not besmirch the good name of voluntary directors of companies up and down the country. There is one law for everyone in the country, not two. We are supposed to live in a democracy and respect everyone equally. We must get to the bottom of this. I do not want to have to beg the Ceann Comhairle to raise this again in another eight months. It is time this was brought to finality. It is unfair on the good people of Tipperary to have this morass hanging over them. Whoever is keeping a lid on it must be exposed.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

The audit report into the running of Tipperary Hostel Limited noted serious deficiencies in the running of the company. The Deputy is right that we must be forensic in our investigation and analysis of how these deficiencies occurred to ensure they do no happen again. I have confirmed to him that it is expected the investigation will conclude in late June. It is important to note the jobs initiative programme was transferred to the Department of Social Protection and FÁS therefore does not retain any further funding stream for projects of this type. If the hostel is to be completed under the jobs initiative programme, the decision to complete the development will rest with the Minister for Social Protection.

I assure the Deputy that I will do all I can in the limited powers I have to ensure the investigation concludes as quickly as possible.