Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Jun 2013

Vol. 806 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

It has been confirmed that the Government is to go ahead with a €500 million regional sewage treatment plant at Clonshaugh. This is a project that has caused considerable concern, anxiety, fear and opposition across north Dublin. More than 700,000 people will allegedly be served by this treatment plant and a 26 km orbital sewer will reach the sea between Baldoyle and the Portmarnock estuary. Alarmingly, the treatment plant is only a secondary treatment plant in that the level of treatment will be at secondary and not tertiary level. The impact on farming and, in particular, on the coastline and on fisheries will be very significant given the fact that up to 1,000 litres of sewage will be pumped every second. As this sewage will not be fully treated, this will clearly have implications for the local environment and the area concerned.

I point out that when this issue came to the Upper House, Senator Darragh O'Brien raised it with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, who said Senator O'Brien had made very constructive points during the debate and went on to say: "I am giving an undertaking now to the Senator that I will have it investigated." He also made other points about the propensity of engineers to have big projects.

The Minister, Deputy James Reilly, has now supported the project. He thinks that because it is on a flight path, this renders it more supportable. Of course, he spoke out against it when there was potential for it to go to Rush and Lusk, and, true to form, he thought it would have a huge impact on local fisheries there, but obviously he thinks it will have no impact on local fisheries in Portmarnock or Baldoyle.

Some 12,000 residents formally lodged a complaint. The various organisations sought meetings with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, but were refused point-blank. Will the Taoiseach undertake to ensure, at a minimum, that the Minister, Deputy Hogan, meets the residents' organisations and associations to hear first-hand their concerns and anxieties and to have the issue debated? Second, will he undertake to ensure that the investigation the Minister, Deputy Howlin, spoke about in the Seanad will be followed through on and that a cost-benefit analysis will be carried out, as well as an investigation into the overall rationale and viability of the project?

The point I put to the Taoiseach is that 12,000 residents complained and formally lodged a complaint. The various organisations sought meetings with the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, but were refused point blank. Will the Taoiseach undertake, at a minimum, that the Minister, Deputy Hogan, would meet with the residents organisations and associations to hear first hand their concerns and anxieties and to have the issue debated? Second, will he undertake that the investigation the Minister, Deputy Howlin, spoke about the Seanad will be followed through on and that a cost-benefit analysis will be carried out as well as an investigation into the overall rationale and viability of the project at this stage?

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Martin for his question. It should be noted that, in the first instance, this is a matter for Fingal County Council. The role of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in regard to water services projects is to provide capital funding for the works that are involved. Beyond the inclusion of the project in the investment programme for planning and funding of the planning stage, the Minister has had no role in the development of these proposals. It is a matter for Fingal County Council to advance this project further in the planning process.

Following the identification of a preferred site by Fingal County Council, the council is required to prepare detailed plans and complete an environmental impact statement, EIS. That EIS, together with the planning application under the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006, will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála, which will carry out its own statutory public consultation on this project.

Deputy Martin is aware that in March 2011, Fingal County Council appointed consultants to prepare a preliminary report and an environmental impact assessment for the greater Dublin regional drainage project, the north Dublin treatment plant and the orbital sewer. The identification of potential locations for the regional wastewater treatment plant was an important part of this process. The general scope of that project has been developed as part of the greater Dublin strategic drainage study and the strategic environmental assessment of that study.

I understand that as part of the alternative sites assessment process for the project, Fingal County Council identified nine different potential land parcels in the northern part of the greater Dublin area within which a proposed regional wastewater treatment plant could potentially be located, along with a marine outfall and an orbital drainage system. Of these nine land parcels, three sites were then identified by the council as the preferred site options. Yesterday, the council announced that the preferred option for the location of the wastewater treatment plant is at Clonshaugh, with the outfall pipe being 6 km out to sea from Baldoyle. Non-statutory public consultation was carried out at each stage of this process by the council. I understand that the announcement was made to the elected members of Fingal County Council at the council meeting held yesterday afternoon. The council has determined that the Clonshaugh option is the better ecological and environmental solution, is more technically advantageous and provides the best value for money.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputy Terence Flanagan does not look happy.

The Taoiseach

The next steps are that the council will prepare its detailed plans and complete the EIS, which will be lodged with An Bord Pleanála, and the board will carry out its own statutory public consultation on the project. Open days are being held at Fingal County Council, County Hall, Swords, on 26 June, 29 June and 3 July.

As to whether there was any Government funding of the work to date, proposals for the north Dublin wastewater treatment plant and the orbital sewer are included as a scheme to advance through planning in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government's water services investment programme for 2010 to 2013. A planning-stage budget of €3.15 million has been approved for this project.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am disappointed the Taoiseach did not answer the questions I asked, one of which was whether the Minister would meet with the organisations that represent residents across the region. To have 12,000 people objecting is a serious matter. We live in a democracy and the very least the Minister could do is to meet them, particularly given that, as the Taoiseach said, the Minister is providing the huge capital moneys that will be necessary for this plant.

Deputies across the divide in this House have questioned the wisdom of the plant. In the Seanad, Senator Darragh O'Brien questioned the nature and viability of the project. He asked the Minister, Deputy Howlin, to re-evaluate the project because, as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, he has oversight of all major capital works. There is no point in the Taoiseach saying the Government is not really involved in this or saying, "All we are doing is allocating €500 million, and that is all we have to do with it." It is a very serious capital allocation for a plant that is a secondary treatment plant only and will not provide tertiary treatment, which I consider incredible in this day and age in view of the need to treat effluent going into our harbours and bays.

First, I ask the Taoiseach to confirm that the Minister, Deputy Hogan, will meet with the residents concerned. Second, I ask that the Taoiseach follow through on what the Minister, Deputy Howlin, said, namely:

I was previously Minister in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. There is a propensity for engineers to have big schemes. They much prefer to build reservoirs than fix leaks. There is nothing sexy about fixing a hole but construction of a multi-million euro dam and piping water for miles is a big event. I prefer to fix the leaks. I have given the Senator an undertaking that I will have the matter investigated.

The matter has not been investigated by anyone in government. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking to ensure that the promise and commitment made by the Minister to Senator Darragh O'Brien - and, by extension, to the people of the Fingal area - will be followed through on, and that he will have the entire wisdom of this project re-evaluated and investigated? The Minister said it twice to Senator O'Brien in his reply on that occasion.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

They cannot keep a commitment.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Martin is aware, I do not speak here for any particular Minister.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach speaks for the Government.

The Taoiseach

If the Minister, Deputy Hogan, were to sit down with any of the groups representing the 12,000 residents the Deputy mentioned, all he could say to them would be that his statutory function, if this project comes through the planning process, is to find money within his capital programme to make it happen. All the Minister could do in that regard would be to reiterate what are his functions.

From long experience in this House, the Deputy is well aware that the reason we have a statutory process through the local authority and its functions and An Bord Pleanála is to have no interference with the planning process. The Deputy can be quite sure that if the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government of the day were to put his or her foot in this space, the wrong perception would be given.

An extensive investigation has already been carried out. Nine locations were identified as having the potential to deal with this. Three were assessed as being preferred options and of those three, the council informed council members yesterday that best impact from an ecological, technical and environmental perspective was the Clonshaugh location with an outfall pipe 6 km out beyond Baldoyle. This must go through An Bord Pleanála with an environmental impact assessment. This is completely independent of any Minister or any Government. In that regard, the process has been followed.

If this project goes through that process and becomes a reality, it is the function of the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government to find the funds within the capital programme allocated to him to make it become a reality. The Deputy's request for the Minister to meet with groups carries no weight in that the Minister has no function here with the county council and An Bord Pleanála.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

In the event of it going through an entirely independent planning process, both the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform set the ceilings on each Department. However, this must go through a completely independent planning process. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is quite correct in that it has been seriously investigated by the council, which identified nine potential sites. As I said in my reply, at each stage of that process, local consultations took place. If this comes through the independent planning process, the job of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is to provide the funding to make it happen.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Following the publication of the McAleese report last February, Mr. Justice Quirke was asked by the Government to report back within three months on a proposal for a redress and compensation scheme for the women of the Magdalen laundries. I understand this report was received by the Minister for Justice and Equality and Defence last month but has not yet been published.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

He was busy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Media reports and leaks over the weekend suggested that Mr. Justice Quirke recommended the setting up of a reconciliation forum between the women and their former abusers. This suggestion has caused great upset among many survivors who have been in contact with me in recent days.

The Taoiseach is well aware that these women have waited for many years for recognition and vindication. They thought they had received that when the Taoiseach stood up in this House and apologised last February. However, the delay in publishing the report has confused and upset these women just as the ongoing delay in coming to a decision on Bethany Home causes ongoing hardship to former residents.

The women have gone through the trauma of telling their stories multiple times in written submissions and personal testimonials. They have put up with enough delay and need to be compensated for their unpaid wages and illegal incarceration and given their full pension rights. On what date will this report be published and will its publication bring to an end the confusion and hurt of these women? When will the Government make public its decision in respect of compensation for the survivors of Bethany Home?

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy McDonald for her question on this matter. It is only fair to say that after so many years of nothing having been done about this that the Government put in place a structure and process by which a conclusion could be brought to the issue of the Magdalen survivors and the sensitivity, hurt and trauma associated with it.

Mr. Justice Quirke has reported to the Minister. The Government has not yet considered the report. It was very clear from the contributions made here on the Magdalen issue that there was a clear wish that this should not be a long-term, adversarial, legal and complex process and that because of the age and health circumstances of a number of the women, it should be dealt with as fairly and speedily as possible.

I expect the report will come before the Government in the next two weeks. The Government will consider the recommendations and the views of the Minister for Justice and Equality on it and make its decision. The report can then be published. In publishing the report, the Government will hopefully be able to set out its view on how the process of dealing with the recommendations made by Mr. Justice Quirke can be applied. We hope to have the report in the next two weeks and, hopefully, it can be dealt with speedily and conclusively.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What about Bethany Home?

The Taoiseach

Bethany Home is still being considered by the Minister. I think I answered questions on this before. The situation is different and he is considering it.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We are all aware that Bethany Home is a different scenario from the Magdalen laundries because it was a mother and baby home but they share one core similarity and that is the ongoing delay by Government in delivering justice to the survivors and victims. I cannot understand how the Taoiseach can stand up here and say that the Minister is still considering, cogitating and pondering Bethany Home. He has been supplied with all the information, testimonials and historical documentation in respect of the horrendous abuses that happened in that home. It is not good enough for the Taoiseach to come in week in, week out and month in, month out and kick this issue to touch. He needs to bring forward a date by which the Government will reach a decision. I hope it is not because he is trying to long-finger the issue to the extent that people will just go away, die off or stop demanding justice. That is not going to happen.

When Magdalen survivors heard the Taoiseach's very eloquent apology here when he spoke about how he understood that very many of them were older and some of them were in very poor health, they assumed he understood the need for speed in this matter. The Government has had the report for a month and the Taoiseach says it might consider it in two weeks time and has not given a definitive date for its publication. That is not good enough and does not tally with the Taoiseach's apology and the sentiment of this Dáil across all parties when the survivors were here in February. Why can the Taoiseach not consider and publish the report now and put in place the redress scheme the women so richly deserve? Finally, why can he not deal with Bethany Home? If he is not minded to deal with those victims, he should say so but he should not keep playing games with victims and people who have been so grievously hurt.

The Taoiseach

To say we are playing games with the Magdalen women is an outrageous statement. Long before Deputy McDonald and I were born, this situation arose and no Government in the history of the State did anything about it. It was swept aside and under the carpet. Everybody in this House accepted that the appointment of Mr. Justice Quirke to look at the Magdalen situation was the way to go. He undertook to have a report back inside 12 weeks or three months.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Which the Government now has.

The Taoiseach

Which we now have. Having waited 60, 70 or more years, it is only right and proper that this matter deserves real consideration by the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It has not been considered thus far.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy says the Minister is cogitating and pondering, as she termed it. I wish to assure her that the reason we wanted the terms of reference set out in the way they were for Mr. Justice Quirke was to recognise the medical and health circumstances of many of the women involved, to recognise their infirmity and age in some cases and that time was not on their side or that of anyone else. It is right and proper that we should give this issue serious consideration. A financial element is included and Mr. Justice Quirke has made a number of recommendations. I expect that the Minister will come to the Cabinet inside the next two weeks. The report will be published immediately once the Cabinet has considered its decisions and recommendations. Once the process is decided upon, there will be no delay by the Government in following through. I hope it will be possible to agree on the process with the Magdalen women and deal with it effectively in their interests, having in mind the history of their trauma and distress.

We are not playing games in the case of Bethany Home situation which is different. Once the Minister has considered all of the implications for Bethany Home and a number of other smaller units, that decision will also be made by the Government.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy wants me to give a date-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time. Will the Deputy please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This matter has been raised for years.

The Taoiseach

I give the Deputy my word that it will happen as speedily and quickly as we can.

Deputy Clare Daly

I congratulate the Taoiseach on the fact that one of his Ministers appears to have read the report on the inquiry into the termination of fixed charge penalty notices and understand that while it starts with, "Once upon a time", it does not end with, "happily ever after". This issue is not going away and credibility in the system will not be restored unless there is a full independent inquiry.

As we are now in the countdown to the G8 summit, I wish to raise a couple of issues in that regard. The Taoiseach is aware that fake shop fronts have been erected across Enniskillen to hide from the visiting G8 dignitaries the reality of an economy in tatters. It is somewhat reminiscent of the tactics employed by Potemkin in Czarist Russia who authorised the building of fake villages along the route to be travelled by Catherine the Great. Will the Taoiseach agree with me that this is a somewhat poignant analogy for the G8 gathering? The dictionary definition of a Potemkin village is an impressive facade designed to hide an undesirable fact. Will the Taoiseach agree that it is an undesirable fact that while they talk about eradicating hunger, the reality is that the policies being pursued by the G8 will ensure hunger? Will he agree that it is an undesirable fact that while they talk about dealing with tax evasion, they are the very people who are responsible for organising tax avoidance on a massive scale? Will he agree that while they talk about peace, this gathering up the road will in actual fact be a gathering of war-mongers?

How can the Taoiseach justify the spending of taxpayers' money on the deployment of 900 gardaí, having courts available 24 hours a day and judges on call and the possibility of the mobile phone network being shut down? I wonder whether he is taking lessons from his colleagues in Turkey in order to deal with peaceful protesters, while at the same time his Government has not deployed a single garda to investigate the hundreds of US military aircraft landing at Shannon Airport every year. For how long does he intend to facilitate Mr. Obama in spying on citizens around the globe by allowing him access to the servers of the major Internet companies based in Ireland, despite our data protection legislation? Does he not think it would be more appropriate for the leader of a neutral country, rather than protecting the promoters of war, to make a gesture and protect those who advocate, speak for and defend civil liberties by offering asylum to the heroic whistleblower Mr. Edward Snowden?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Send the gardaí out in a boat.

The Taoiseach

My God, I thought the Deputy was suggesting there should be Garda checkpoints in respect of the possible delivery of penalty points for leaders of the G8 in travelling to the occasion in County Fermanagh.

Deputy Joe Higgins

That is an excellent idea.

The Taoiseach

This is a global gathering of the leaders of the most powerful economies in the world. It will make Ireland the focus of global attention. Prime Minister Cameron will host the G8 summit in County Fermanagh. There is a requirement on us in respect of the reputation of the country and the safety of every individual to see to it that, where appropriate and necessary, the co-operation of the Garda Síochána and the authorities is made available to the PSNI in order that the meetings can take place as scheduled. The participants will not be discussing war-mongering issues; instead they will be dealing with international issues such as security, food, human rights and the situation in Syria and other countries around the globe. This is politics, as required and necessary, to make decisions on these issues.

I do not accept the Deputy's argument about Catherine the Great. I am not aware of the detail of shop fronts being altered, although I have read some reports on it. I suppose it is a case of each local authority wishing to present its area in the best possible light. I hope the G8 summit will be a big success in the sense of dealing with many of the issues mentioned.

On discussions I may have with any of the leaders about trade or other issues, I hope at some stage to have the opportunity to raise a number of the issues which have been discussed in the House in recent weeks.

Deputy Clare Daly

The Taoiseach is deliberately choosing to ignore that the central thrust of the point at the heart of the G8 gathering is immense hypocrisy. It begs the question as to whose interests he wants to defend and how he sees himself. Is it not the case that the reputation of Ireland would be far better served by developing an independent foreign policy, one that was not reliant on bending the knee to US imperialism at every turn? The Taoiseach would make a better contribution to society if he were to do so. The point I am trying to make to him is that last week his Government signed a global arms trade treaty, yet he has systematically chosen not to undertake his right to investigate the military aircraft which routinely land on these shores. A total of 450 US military aircraft landed at Shannon Airport last year. The Tánaiste tells us the people concerned are not involved in military exercises, nor are they carrying weapons. This begs the question, first, as to how the Government knows this because it has not inspected the aircraft and, second, as to whether it is not peculiar that a great number of them must be going on holiday wearing military uniforms. The Taoiseach is choosing to stand over a situation where at every turn he is supporting US imperialism and the global capitalist powers to the detriment of a majority of the world's population. In the light of our history of enduring hunger and famine orchestrated from other countries, the G8 is discussing food policies which will result in hunger in many parts of the world. This is a concern which has provoked outrage all over the world. The Taoiseach may be aware that one hour ago 100 riot police stormed a meeting in London to discuss organising a protest to coincide with the G8 gathering. Is that the legacy and the reputation he would like for Ireland? Would it not be preferable if he took an independent stance on behalf of a neutral country?

The Taoiseach

I attended an occasion in London on Saturday morning at which Ireland was commended on its activities in the relief of hunger, in particular under-nutrition and malnutrition. Ireland's activities are recognised the world over by many leaders and representatives from countries where malnutrition and under-nutrition have serious consequences. Ireland was commended on its leadership and global involvement in that regard. Following the decision of the Tánaiste and on behalf of the Government, I was happy to inform the conference that Ireland would double its allocation in dealing with malnutrition and under-nutrition in the period to 2020.

Issues with practical application from breast feeding to the agri-sector, including the dairy sector, are ones we have raised very strongly. Ireland is a non-aligned country. I remind the Deputy, as has been pointed out by former President Clinton on many occasions, that Ireland is one of the few countries which has had personnel at various locations around the world every day since the United Nations was formed to deal with peacekeeping, peace enforcement and humanitarian issues. For a small country, Ireland has made an extraordinary and well regarded contribution during the tenure of all Governments during the years.

I do not have details of the number of flights through Shannon Airport. We have always supported this but never rendition flights. From that point of view, as a non-aligned country with the Tánaiste chairing the General Affairs Council, Ireland has put forward its views very strongly on the recent Council decision on the arms embargo on Syria and on how things should be dealt with at various locations around the world. We are very proud of the contribution we have made and continue to make. In that respect, we do not kowtow to any international power. We have our own views and have never been afraid to express them.