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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 2013

Vol. 809 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Last night Ulster Bank confirmed that it would close 40 more branches and lay off additional staff. In that bank alone we are looking at the loss of between 1,400 and 1,800 jobs, which is a staggering blow to those employees and their families. In a presentation to investors, the chief risk officer went further and said that the bank is anxious to break even by 2014 and to make a profit again in three years’ time. In that context, he very worryingly said that the bank would target distressed mortgage holders in arrears. In an extraordinary statement, he said that it was his view that up to 35% of those in arrears were strategic and that the bank was going after them. He blamed the Dunne judgment in the context of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act.

It is interesting that the Government’s response to the mindset and mood revealed in the presentation to investors yesterday was essentially to capitulate to the bank’s agenda. It is clear that the banks are targeting those in arrears and the Government has facilitated this, first, by simply changing the legislation, bringing it through this House, to make it easier for banks to repossess family homes and, second, by unravelling the existing protections and code of conduct that existed for mortgage holders and those in arrears. The new code of conduct represents a significant rebalancing of powers towards the lender as against the borrower. What we saw yesterday was a revealing insight into the thinking within the bank boardrooms and the bank management across the board. It is their belief that it is legitimate to use legal action to go after people in arrears on the basis that they are all strategic defaulters anyway. It seems to me that what we are witnessing, which explains why the Government has created a situation that coincides with the agenda of the banks, is a dilution of protections that existed for people in mortgage arrears and a change in legislation without any conditionality to protect those in arrears.

Does the Minister share the view of Ulster Bank that up to 35% of mortgage defaulters are strategic? Is that the Government’s view as well? Given the mindset, as revealed by the bank, will the Government reconsider intervening on behalf of those in arrears and put in place independent oversight to arbitrate between the banks and those in arrears to ensure that those in mortgage arrears in this country get a fair hearing and genuinely sustainable resolutions to the predicament in which they find themselves?

It is difficult to take lectures from the Deputy opposite about capitulation to banks given the history of what we have been through.

The Minister wanted to guarantee Ulster Bank.

Would an answer be out of the question?

Deputy Cowen to the rescue.

All of us in this House will express sympathy with those who have lost their jobs in Ulster Bank, which is the initial question raised by the Deputy. I am very much aware that this is an economy in transition.

While we feel for the people who are losing their jobs, we also recognise that we are making real progress. We are seeing parts of the economy that grew too big, which unfortunately included banking and property, adjust to a new reality. We are creating employment in other sectors that are long term and sustainable. That is part of an ongoing transition that is taking place.

The Deputy also raised the issue of people who are in mortgage distress. The Government has taken enormous pains to provide a framework within which such people can be protected.

There is a mortgage arrears relief programme which sets out the code that must be followed. In addition, we have made it very clear that the money we the taxpayer have put into the banks to recapitalise and make provision for the losses in their loan books must be used systematically to deal with people who are genuinely unable to meet their mortgages. Targets have been set for the banks to have workable restructuring programmes developed for each mortgage holder, with a 50% target by the year end. We are moving to deal with what has dogged many other countries that have had banking crises of this nature, namely, a failure of banks to face up to the situation and to allow people to get on with their lives. That is what we are putting in place.

In addition to the programme I outlined we have also put in place personal insolvency legislation. That provides people who have failed to reach an agreement at the end of negotiation with the banks to go to the personal insolvency service and have their case dealt with independently.

We are putting in place a number of protection mechanisms to allow people to work through problems in a systematic way. Our objective is to move the economy on to allow people who genuinely cannot pay to reach a resolution so that they can restart their lives and to insist that banks use the money that has been put in at enormous cost to taxpayers to resolve the issues for individuals and businesses.

The Minister referred to expressing sympathy. People need more than that at this stage. I asked him a basic question, whether he shared the Ulster Bank’s view that up to 35% of those in arrears were due to strategic considerations. I do not share the view. That is an extraordinary figure. Anybody who has called to people’s houses or talked to those in arrears knows how much they have tried to engage with banks.

The Deputy made a big mess of the economy.

Since the Keane report, out of 144,000 people in mortgage arrears, we have only had 144 split mortgages. That is an indication of the lack of engagement to date by the banks with people on the basis of meaningful, sustainable ideas that were proposed two and a half years ago.

Yet the Minister refers to adjusting to new realities. New Beginning asserts that there are up to 50 new repossession cases before the courts every month. This is the new reality to which many of those in mortgage arrears are now adjusting.

Bank activity has focused increasingly on such people in the past eight weeks. This is what we are hearing on the ground and from the groups at the coalface. There is an absence of independent oversight of the banks.

Does the Deputy have a question?

Inexplicably, the Government changed the code of conduct a short while ago and reduced the protections. It stood by and allowed this to happen.

And your question is what?

The change gives more power to the banks to do what they want, namely-----

-----return to profitability and target those in arrears. There are no safeguards against abuse in terms of increased contact. All the restrictions about contacts with customers are gone.

One would think the Deputy had just landed. His Government caused the problems.

The banks can harass people for as long as they want.

How about a question?

A question please, Deputy Martin.

For the first time ever, tracker mortgages are now on the table. People are getting no-----

This is a Second Stage speech.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Martin's Government caused the problems.

The truth hurts, Deputy Stagg. There is no independent oversight in terms of those-----

(Interruptions).

Could we have order, please? A question from the Deputy, please.

His question is what?

There is no independent oversight of tracker mortgages or the offers that banks may make to people on those mortgages-----

The Deputy is over time.

-----to ensure the wool is not pulled over their eyes.

Sit down. The Deputy is over time. He has no question.

There is no entitlement to a minimum level of income, for example.

(Interruptions).

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, do something about this.

The same old hypocrisy every morning.

Fundamentally, the Government has changed the legislation to give all of the power and control in this scenario to the banks.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

It stays in the Central Bank.

I am sorry, Deputy, but you have gone over time. You must resume your seat.

(Interruptions).

He is well over time.

I must call the Minister.

I just want to ask him, if I may-----

Ask him, please, and conclude.

Many people on the Government benches are aspiring to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's position and are giving him instructions.

(Interruptions).

Given what was revealed yesterday-----

Deputy Martin was not very good at giving instructions either.

-----will the Government change tack and ensure independent oversight of the relationship between banks and mortgage holders?

The Government cannot even keep basic promises.

Do the others agree with that?

I am unsure as to whether there was a question. One comment I must make is that-----

A Deputy

There was a lot of hot air.

Does the Minister agree with Ulster Bank?

-----the Deputy opposite does not seem to realise that hundreds of thousands of people-----

-----were led into buying property in the midst of a property bubble that was supported by flawed policies pursued by the Government. That is the reality.

Egged on by the current Government.

(Interruptions).

We are trying to deal with the consequences of policies that failed.

Cheerleaders. I remember it well.

Answer the question.

I will answer the question on whether we agree with Ulster Bank's claims. Clearly, we do not know the data in respect of Ulster Bank and its claims, but we have put in place a requirement to have sustainable solutions by the end of the year for 50% of people who are in difficulty. This is overseen independently by the Central Bank. Furthermore, the process-----

It is not. The Central Bank has made it clear that it has no prescriptive powers.

Please, the Minister has the floor.

The Deputy is shouting people down.

Does he not want the answer?

The Minister should not mislead the House on this point.

Allow the Minister.

Furthermore, if banks fail to engage in a mortgage arrears resolution process, MARP, the situation can be appealed to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

Would someone in arrears go to the ombudsman?

The banks' commitment to dealing with the regulations as set out is overseen.

Deputy Martin should watch behind himself.

Look at what happened to Deputy Rabbitte.

Individuals who have been unable to find agreements with their banks have the option of going to an independent personal insolvency service where the issues can be independently assessed and a procedure can be put in place to deal with their problems. Right along the trail, there is independent oversight of the different steps in this process-----

-----to ensure those who cannot pay are offered sustainable solutions. This is the route we have sought to pursue. If we fail to face up to these problems in our banks, we will have the sort of zombie problem within banking that traps families, banks and our economy in a situation in which they cannot move forward.

There are a few zombies over there.

The actions we are taking are designed to allow for a recovery-----

And allow more repossessions.

-----after the crisis created by policies about which Deputy Martin knows more than we do.

In budget 2013, the Government signalled that €750 million would be cut from health spending this year and that medical card entitlements would be targeted. During the Easter recess in April, the HSE announced that further restrictions on medical cards were being introduced. This followed on from legislation that lowered the income threshold for medical card qualification among people aged over 70 years. This has come from a Government elected on a promise of free primary health care for all.

Every Deputy knows that constituency offices are being inundated by citizens bearing the brunt of these cuts and whose medical card entitlements have been removed. In many cases, they are from households in mortgage distress and are suffering unemployment and the extra taxes the Government is pressing down on them.

There are stories behind all of these statistics. In my constituency of Louth, a seven year old with a congenital heart defect who has required numerous surgeries and ongoing general practitioner, GP, and hospital care and medication has seen his card withdrawn.

This is a part of the Government's austerity policy. Parents have needed to cope with such situations. Does the Minister accept that, in taking medical cards from thousands of families, the Government is inflicting financial hardship and poorer health prospects on people who are already struggling? Does he accept that this additional cut is especially severe for families like the one to which I referred, particularly given the outrageous cuts to child benefit? Will the Minister commit to restoring medical card entitlements?

I thank the Deputy for his question. Medical card eligibility is set out plainly in law. The means test has not been changed. People have the right to present individual health cases, which are always addressed. If the Deputy wishes to draw a specific case to the attention of those assessing it-----

Thousands of them.

-----I would be happy to receive it.

The broad picture is that an increasing number of people have medical cards. Never in the history of the State have we had as many as 42% of people eligible for cards. The figure has increased this year. Despite the difficulties in which public services find themselves and the economies that every part of Government has needed to achieve, we continue to expand entitlements for primary care because we recognise that people need eligibility in that regard. There are difficulties in every part of the health service, but we are expanding eligibility in terms of medical cards and we have not reduced the means test in any way. We continue to have a process whereby cases involving particular hardship and medical evidence can be brought to the attention of the decision makers. These aspects are factored into the decisions taken. In difficult times, we are trying to ensure people are catered for in respect of their access to GP and primary care.

That sounds wonderful, but it does not reflect the reality of life for citizens like the one I mentioned. I will provide another example. I received a letter seeking support for a man in County Galway. It reads:

Jimmy is in general good health, but he requires the constant presence of a responsible adult at all times for safety issues as he is registered blind and very deaf. His children (who are now retired) travel on a rota basis to stay with Jimmy and take care of him. His limited income ensures his home is warm and comfortable and that he has good nutrition. He receives a home care attendant service Mon-Fri to support family members. I believe that the family needs a medical card to maintain the home care attendant service.

This man is 102 years old. Come on, Minister. This is the reality for a family.

In the Government's five-point plan, the health section was called a fair care plan. However, there is nothing fair or caring about it. It entails bonuses for corrupt bankers and toadying up to the well-connected and the wealthy. It is forcing families like that one to bear the awful brunt of the Government's austerity policies.

There is another twist in the tail. The family made representations, as did health professionals and Sinn Féin representatives, so the decision is being reviewed. However, his medical card has been extended for only one month while the review takes place. The Government is making health care unaffordable and thus inaccessible for the sick, elderly and other vulnerable people. I appeal to the Minister not to give us any palaver, rhetoric and plámás. These cruel cuts should be withdrawn.

I am perfectly happy to arrange that the case the Deputy has raised be investigated.

There are 40,000 such cases.

From what he indicated, it is being reviewed. Generally, anyone who is aged 70 or over is entitled to a medical card if their gross income does not exceed €600 per week. That is the income threshold. The other part of that assessment is that a person may have savings but savings up to €36,000 will be disregarded. The system therefore does attempt to provide for people of a more advanced age-----

-----and more prone to illness, to have a much higher income threshold. That is set out in the legislation. In addition, they have the security of knowing that they can have savings and those will not be treated. If there are special circumstances, and undoubtedly there are in this case, those special circumstances will be reviewed in each case.

There are thousands of them.

That discretion is there and it will obviously hinge on the merit of the case. If the Deputy wants to give details of the case he cited, I will arrange for the HSE to examine those details.

Nearly two and a half years ago, this Government took office with the hopes and dreams of a nation behind it. Like some great prophet, the Taoiseach announced that he was entering into a covenant with the Irish people. Maybe we should have spotted, even then, the delusions he had about what exactly his role would be. Since the Government was formed, however, the Taoiseach has betrayed the hopes and dreams of the Irish people.

You must be joking.

The Taoiseach has failed to keep faith with the promises he made and the defined mandate on which the Government was elected.

Is this a question or a party political speech?

The Deputy has two minutes. Please allow him to continue without interruption.

I wonder if the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, is waiting to milk another cow. He has his hands out there.

It is like an oration at the grave of O'Donovan Rossa.

You will be like that very soon, at a graveside. The Government has failed to keep the promises it made. Hardly any group has suffered more from those betrayals than the young people of our country. Emigration rates have continued to rise, not just annually but also monthly and weekly. Over a quarter of Irish households have seen a close family member emigrate in the past two years.

The Deputy is not adhering to the full stops in his script.

That is the first time in two years that I have heard Deputy Bannon speak.

Can we have order, please?

Empty vessels make most noise.

A Deputy

Turn down the volume control.

When he goes back to Longford, he will get his answers from the people he promised on the pro-life issue.

The Taoiseach's so-called covenant has failed to prevent us from losing an entire generation of our young people. This week, the Taoiseach spoke eloquently about Ireland's EU Presidency. I compliment him on his six months in charge but he said the high levels of youth unemployment across Europe are an abomination. He said that on his watch young people would not be locked out of the future. Those are hollow words, indeed.

Who wrote the Deputy's script?

Who is the Taoiseach trying to cod? What hope can any young person have that the Taoiseach or the Government will be able to deliver on this grand promise? Ireland has almost the highest youth unemployment rate in western Europe with up to one in four young people aged 17 to 25 jobless and one in three men unemployed.

I ask the Deputy to conclude.

I am not being allowed to continue.

I am watching the clock.

I know the truth is bitter but it should not be that hard to sit on. I am entitled to ask a question, am I not?

Yes. Please ask a question.

Go raibh maith agat.

Could we have silence, please?

(Interruptions).

The pizza boy is back. Will the Minister give a commitment today and demonstrate his seriousness in tackling this issue by bringing to the Taoiseach a proposal to create an office with the sole responsibility to target youth unemployment? Will the Government - you are all wise guys there, as well - consider measures similar to those recently introduced in Italy whereby employers receive a tax-break for offering young people under 30 permanent contracts?

Well done, Mattie.

First of all, I acknowledge that we inherited an economy that was in an extraordinary situation.

That is the past.

No, that is not the past.

That was before Mattie jumped ship.

The economy we inherited was losing 90,000 jobs per year.

(Interruptions).

I want order for the reply, please. The Minister has the floor.

I am happy to stay all day but I would like to get a chance to answer the question. The truth is that we inherited an economy that was losing 90,000 jobs per year. That is 7,000 jobs per month. The latest CSO figures show that we have added 20,000 jobs in the last 12 months. In respect of the private sector, we are adding 2,000 jobs per month. That is a dramatic transformation. If one looks at what is happening beneath that, one will find that the IDA has had the best two years in a decade and Enterprise Ireland has had its best year in five years. There is a real transition going on in our economy in certain sectors which we discussed earlier. Part of the domestic banking sector continues to have problems but we are seeing the emergence of new strong sectors. That is ultimately the response to the challenge of emigration and youth unemployment.

We need to create more employment and the Government has put in place a number of innovative approaches to deal with this. We have done it through our action plan for jobs, the strategic investment fund and our ability to find innovative ways of funding stimulus at a time when we cannot use conventional borrowing. That is the way in which we will create new employment and deal with the scourge of emigration.

In respect of youth unemployment, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has set this as a very high priority. She has successfully negotiated the agreement at European level to make this a top priority for Europe. Her agreement will now release €6 billion in funding for youth employment initiatives across the EU. We will also be developing that.

As regards the Deputy's specific suggestion, this month the Minister, Deputy Burton, will be announcing a new scheme whereby an employer can take on a person who has been out of work for 12 months and get a subsidy of €72 per week which will be paid monthly in arrears. That is a straightforward cash support to help businesses which are in a position to recruit to take people off the dole.

There are a lot of initiatives going on precisely to deal with the challenge the Deputy has set. It is, and remains, the Government's firm purpose to deal with the employment crisis. That is what gets us up in the morning every day. That is what drives Ministers each day to seek to resolve this matter, which is the central crisis for the economy.

If that is the best that Ministers can do, they should all stay in bed in the morning.

What people want are sustainable long-term jobs, of which the Minister promised 70,000. Despite this continuous mantra about the last Government, the Minister saw the books before he came into office. He sought the books, got them and knew the situation.

It did not change them.

We all know that the live register numbers have fallen due to FÁS and JobBridge training programmes, as well as the back-to-education scheme.

Is the Deputy against them?

Nobody ever employed anybody by offering €72 after somebody is taken on for 12 months because it is a pittance. The Minister does not understand what makes employers tick. The sooner the Minister and his team of advisers get down and dirty, and understand what makes people employ staff, the better. The Minister does not understand what makes people want to create jobs, wealth and pay their taxes. Despite the Minister's best efforts and the grandiose plans he is talking about, efforts must be mobilised around the shared objective of getting young people jobs. Those were the Taoiseach's words in Europe.

How can we take this Government seriously when it cannot even deal with relatively straightforward issues such as applications for third level education grants? The SUSI system is a shambles. Those involved are people who want to educate themselves in order to obtain work or set up a business.

I am not yet finished. The Government has broken all of its promises. The Taoiseach reneged on his commitment to the families of those killed in the Omagh bomb and to the Stardust victims' committee. He told them that they would never have to make another telephone call but they have not heard from him in two and a half years. The Government has also broken its promise on the late Fr. Niall Molloy issue. These are simple issues, which have nothing to do with the economy, on which the Government has reneged on its promises. This is a Government of broken promises. The young people of this country will never forgive it. We cannot allow youth unemployment to continually increase.

Deputy McGrath is very hard on us.

The Deputy should read his script.

Members of the Government backbenches can laugh all they like. However, they can hide but they cannot run.

The saying is "You can run but you cannot hide".

The Government can neither run nor hide.

There is no place to run.

A Deputy

Run like a rabbit.

Run like a rabbit in the fog lights.

Stick to the script.

A question please, Deputy.

It is a matter of trust. The young have lost trust in this Government. Why is it that one in four of our young people have to leave our shores? It is a tragedy. Will the Government establish a specific ministry to deal with this issue? The time for talking and rubbing hands has long past. There are too many Departments dealing with this issue. We need a Minister who is focused and dedicated to bringing an end to youth unemployment.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

It is difficult to know where to start.

That is what happened, the Government never started.

The Deputy said that the Government does not understand enterprise. The truth is that enterprise and predominantly small business have created 25,000 net new jobs in the past 12 months.

In spite of the Government.

Allow the Minister to respond please.

Most of those jobs were in the export sector. Government support through the IDA-Enterprise Ireland is at the heart of development of this sector. I defy anyone to criticise the work of those agencies whose budgets have been protected. Even in this difficult time we have protected budgets to support enterprise, the value of which is reflected in the 25,000 net additional people at work in the private sector.

How many full-time jobs have been created?

The Deputy asked what is happening on the live register. The number of people on the live register has decreased for the twelfth month in a row.

Pat yourselves on the back?

The percentage of people unemployed has also reduced from 15% to 13.6%. While that is progress, it is not enough progress. We need to do more in this space.

The Irish population in Australia has increased by 30%.

(Interruptions).

Some €2.5 million of new funding has been made available through Government agencies to small and medium enterprise. These is new funding to support expansion of the type of enterprises of which the Deputy spoke. As rightly acknowledged by the Deputy, some 60% of those who engaged in JobBridge have been retained in employment.

That is just papering over the cracks.

The new scheme will provide people in business with the opportunity to recruit directly from the live register and get an upfront cash subsidy.

What about SUSI?

(Interruptions).

These are new ideas that are showing results. The Deputy wants to remain in the time warp of criticising rather than putting forward worthwhile solutions. His only suggestion is that we create a new ministry. What we need is policies that work. That is what this Government is developing. We are seeing results in terms of the number of enterprises recruiting. That is the ultimate solution to this challenge.

Live horse and you'll get grass.

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