Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jul 2013

Vol. 812 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

I want to talk to the Taoiseach about the management of the social welfare budget and the policy approaches and unacceptable delays which are adding significant burdens to families, particularly those with children. The delays in processing applications for many social welfare payments, including carer's allowance, disability allowance and invalidity pensions, are unacceptable. Initial applications can take up to nine months, with appeals taking a further six to nine months to process. Yesterday, I was informed that it can take three months for an appeal to get from the Department to the appeals office. Why does it take three months for an appeal to transfer from the relevant section to the appeals office?

Increasingly, applicants are receiving letters stating that, due to the large increase in the number of appeals, some time will elapse before an appeals officer will be in a position to consider their case. In the case of the carer's allowance, the person being cared for can be dead and buried before the family receives any relief.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Such cases have occurred.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Deputies are experiencing these types of cases daily.

These delays constitute a cynical attempt to save money. A report by the free legal advice centres has identified that one in five decisions is being overturned in the appeals process. If better decisions were made in the first place, families would not be burdened with inordinate delays.

A significant assault on single parent families is emanating from the Department of Social Protection. This month alone, 2,500 lone parents will be moved from the one parent family payment to jobseeker's allowance. The difference in the earnings disregard in the two payments will result in a reduction in income of €50 per week for the families in question. Families in these circumstances should not lose €50 or more per week as a result of the reduction in the earning disregard from €110 in respect of the one parent family payment to €60 in respect of jobseeker's allowance. This reduction is in addition to cuts that have been made to the payment. Moreover, 8,000 people will be moved off the one parent family payment because of decisions taken in the previous budget in respect of the age of the youngest child.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach reverse the assault on the incomes of lone parents and take steps, as a matter of urgency, to reduce dramatically the delays in waiting times for social welfare applications?

The Taoiseach

This year, the bill for social protection expenditure will be more than €20 billion. This money has been voted, is available and is being paid to a wide range of people who draw on the services of the Department of Social Protection. I note that the spending profile set out by the Deputy's party for the Department of Social Protection was €1.5 billion lower than the current figure. Were expenditure to be reduced by this amount, it would affect and impact on many people in different sectors.

I am aware from applications that come before me, as a Deputy, of the difficulties that arise in this regard. However, I am also aware of the continuous stream of appeals that come when an application is turned down because decisions may be appealed more than once. While it is regrettable that there is a delay in any appeals system, the sheer volume of appeals has resulted in a delay in the final decisions on appeals.

Deputy Martin is aware that supplementary welfare payments have been voted and are available to those who find themselves in a position where a final appeal has not been determined. This means no one is left in limbo and without assistance from the Department of Social Protection. The Deputy is also aware that the core rates have been protected in respect of all social welfare payments. The money is available.

The position in so far as lone parents are concerned is that the strategy is to allow flexibility for everybody to play their full part in their lives and the development of the economy.

During a visit to Sligo the other day, I called into the Intreo office to meet staff who are drawn from the Department of Social Protection and the Health Service Executive's community welfare service. As the pioneers of this new structure, Intreo is doing extraordinary work with the live register and different categories of people who draw social welfare payments. It is a very encouraging development and we want to extend the service across the country.

While I would like to think that appeals that have been lodged could be dealt with more swiftly, the issue is the sheer volume of appeals. This is due to the change from one category to another, which in many cases results in continuing appeals.

The social protection budget is in excess of €20 billion or more than €1.5 billion more than budgeted for by the Deputy's party. The money has been voted, allocated and is being paid and every effort is being made by the Minister for Social Protection to streamline the efficiency of payments. I hope the situation in so far as clarity about decisions and the speed with which decisions are made in respect of appeals can also be dealt with in the time ahead. This is a matter of priority for the Government and the Minister for Social Protection.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach's words will be cold comfort to those who are in this position. People are being left in limbo. The supplementary welfare allowance system is not adequate and does not provide a payment in 70% of cases. The self-employed, for example, are finding it extraordinarily difficult to access the supplementary welfare allowance.

I ask the Taoiseach to stop using phrases such as "I would like to think we could have better times". It is his job and the job of the Minister to ensure the waiting times are shortened-----

Deputy Eric Byrne

Deputy Martin made a hames of his job when he was in government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and reduced to a reasonable timeframe. The length of time is having a huge impact on families who are in real difficulty and are on the breadline. I ask the Taoiseach to stop using phrases such as "to allow flexibility for people to play their part in society".

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask his supplementary question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are taking €50 a week away from them in order that they can have flexibility to play their part in society. That is what the Taoiseach just said and is insulting-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is to allow them to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----to the people who are losing their incomes.

An Ceann Comhairle

A supplementary question, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They cannot stand the mumbo jumbo that is coming from Departments and Ministers on a daily basis.

The Taoiseach

False anger.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Contrived anger.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The Deputy is misleading the House.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am not misleading the House. That is the record of the Labour Party in charge of social welfare.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Contrived.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the Labour Party hitting people on low incomes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to put his supplementary question, please. He is over his time.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government Deputy Whip is a very difficult man to ignore, but I will try. I will put the following question.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The Deputy is still in denial.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach accept that the waiting times are unacceptable? Will he give a commitment to the House and to the people, who are waiting for applications and appeals to be processed, that he will move fast to reduce those delays? Will he reverse the policy on lone parents and the excessive and disproportionate burden they are being asked to take vis-à-vis anyone else?

The Taoiseach

I have no time for the Deputy's false anger, coming in here week after week with the kind of nonsense he goes on with.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is contrived.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The anger is outside.

The Taoiseach

He sat over here as a Minister as part of a decrepit Government that time after time cut social welfare benefits without any consultation with the people involved.

A Deputy

The previous Government cut the minimum wage.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

How much has the present Government cut in the past two and a half years?

The Taoiseach

He allowed the self-employed not to be covered under the Social Welfare Acts in the so-called veneer of the Celtic tiger years and did nothing about it.

Deputy Dara Calleary

What about the cut to the carers?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would you please-----

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin allowed that to continue.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

For many years.

The Taoiseach

This Government is allowing self-employed people to participate in the insurance scheme.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach should answer the question about the self-employed and social welfare.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Dea, please.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin should not come in here with his false anger every week.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am entitled to come in here and put the hard questions to the Taoiseach that he refuses to answer.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach has no answers.

The Taoiseach

We have had enough of that.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach should tell that to the people who have died waiting for a welfare allowance.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Martin well knows, the supplementary welfare allowance is a means-tested allowance.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need for the chorus.

The Taoiseach

If 70% of applications for supplementary welfare allowance are being refused it is because those applicants have another income.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

It is a complete fabrication. The Taoiseach should get into the real world.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy telling me that supplementary welfare allowance should not be means tested and should be paid irrespective of whether a person has another allowance, salary or income?

Deputy Willie O'Dea

I could give several examples that would contradict that.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin needs to focus on what is real here.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach needs to focus and answer the question.

The Taoiseach

I have no time for his false anger week after week.

Deputy Gerry Adams

In February the Taoiseach gave a heart felt apology on behalf of the State to the survivors of the Magdalen laundries for the hurt done to them. He rightly told the women that they were blameless and I have no doubt he was moved by their life stories when he met them. For the women, that apology for the time they were incarcerated in a brutal regime overseen by the State was a turning point.

So too was the Government's announcement of a redress scheme. The Government's decision to make this redress scheme an ex gratia scheme and to ask the women to make no further claim against the State if they access the scheme was in marked contrast to the generous tone of the Taoiseach's apology. This issue of liability is clearly motivating the religious orders' refusal to make a financial contribution to the redress scheme. The issue of liability underpins the Government's own redress scheme and, for example, its refusal to deal with Bethany Home.

I respectfully say that the Government's record of failure to tackle the elites and to pursue institutions for wrongdoing is shocking and not good enough. The elites, whether in financial institutions or religious institutions, need to be made accountable to the will of the people. It is no accident that the women and girls were mostly poor. Then, as now, it is one law for the poor and one law for the rich. That is the harsh reality.

It is not good enough for the Government to express disappointment and to hope these institutions do the right thing. What does the Government intend to do to ensure the religious orders whose institutions benefited from the enslavement of girls and women in their commercial enterprises pay their fair share into the Magdalen laundries redress scheme?

The Taoiseach

This has always been a sensitive matter. For more than 60 years nothing was done about this. Government after Government, some including my party, did nothing about this. We have done something about it. The first thing those women wanted when I met them was a sense of righteousness that the State would apologise for what happened. Second, because of their circumstances and their ages, they wanted put in place a system that was non-litigious and non-adversarial, and that would be quick, efficient and deliver a conclusion and solution for the women. To arrive at that, the McAleese report was important, as was the report of Mr. Justice Quirke. The solution is there.

We cannot do the scheme without the help of the religious orders because they have all the records about who worked, who attended and who lived in the laundries. The scheme was not contingent upon a 50-50 principle or upon a forced contribution from the religious orders. The Government set out to do something about this where nothing had been done for more than 60 years. I would like to think the religious orders would make a contribution. I cannot force them to because the scheme was not designed on that basis. These people do not have time on their side.

In respect of the redress scheme, 18 religious orders are involved. There has been a €1.5 billion payout. The Minister for Education and Skills is involved in discussions with all those religious orders on the basis of a scheme that was drafted on the principle of a 50-50 contribution. He will bring his memorandum to Government next week or the following week in regard to that.

The women told me face to face that time is not on their side. They did not want tribunals and did not want millionaire lawyers emerging from this. They did not want long-term discussions. They wanted a speedy non-litigious effective response and they wanted an apology from the State. That is all in place. We cannot complete this without the religious orders' co-operation in terms of the records, etc. I ask them to reflect on the question of a monetary contribution. I cannot force them to do that. I cannot take away the charitable status as some people have called for. This is an issue they know about themselves.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I very much welcomed the Taoiseach's apology and I acknowledge that it came after decades of other governments doing nothing. That is not an issue of contention between us. This is about accountability. I also met the women, and on the day of the Taoiseach's apology one of them sang "The Fields of Athenry" to us in a room in Leinster House. They showed great spirit, tenacity, good humour and fun despite what they had gone through.

They wanted an apology, but they want accountability and they want compensation. It is not good enough because the Taoiseach has suggested we need the co-operation of the orders. The suggestion is almost that is a quid pro quo. The Government is not powerless in this position. I listened to the Minister for Justice and Equality rejecting different suggestions that have been made. If we want to restore faith in society, politics and the imperative of politics, we need to make these institutions accountable, whatever their background.

That would be helpful. I believe the issue of liability is at the core of all of this. Let us not dismiss that as an important consideration. I believe the Taoiseach should publish the letters from the religious orders that the Government has received. I call on the Taoiseach to make personal contact with them and to demand that they fulfil their duties to the small number of survivors, who, as the Taoiseach has said, are quite elderly and infirm. However, publishing the letters, being transparent and getting all of this out would be a useful first step.

The Taoiseach

I have no intention of going down a legal route of confrontation with the religious orders. The women involved have accepted the outcome of the Quirke recommendation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The women are furious.

The Taoiseach

These are the results of a process put in place at the request of the Magdalen women. They asked that this matter would be dealt with speedily and effectively, that compensation would be paid and that the process would be non-adversarial, non-litigious and that it would use non-legal routes that could take years. In order to define the work records and attendance records of those who lived and worked in the Magdalen laundries, we need the co-operation of the religious orders and they have given it.

The Government has made its decision in respect of the extent of the compensation, depending on the numbers involved. We expect that, following the recommendations of Mr. Justice Quirke, the religious orders should consider making a monetary contribution towards the amount. I am not going down the route of legal action in a confrontational manner with the religious orders.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach publish the correspondence?

The Taoiseach

They know the accountability involved is coming from the hearts of those women who demanded that the State should do something. We have set out a process by which that is being dealt with and it has been put in place. The Government has decided on the range of compensation amounts on the recommendations of Mr. Justice Quirke.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Will the Taoiseach publish the letters?

The Taoiseach

The religious orders involved know all about this. They can make a decision now on reflection to make a monetary contribution towards this compensation amount if they so wish. However, Deputy Adams should not expect me to have the State go down a legal route whereby it would spend more than any compensation amount, which we want to see paid to the women.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is not what is being asked. The Taoiseach is being entirely disingenuous.

The Taoiseach

They want a process that is simple, effective and direct. If Deputy McDonald has something better to say to me, then I am prepared to listen to it.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Deputy McDonald has lots to say to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Deputy McDonald and her party have a lot to answer for in terms of accountability in this country, as she well knows.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Taoiseach, we are over time.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is a disgrace.

The Taoiseach

Everything is a disgrace for Deputy McDonald and her party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Halligan, please.

Deputy John Halligan

No doubt the Taoiseach is familiar with the recent ruling from the European Court of Justice which held that the State is obliged to protect the pension rights of 1,500 Waterford Crystal workers. The case is now back in the High Court to determine what percentage of their pensions the workers are entitled to. Should the legal process run its full course all the way to the Supreme Court, it could take the workers into 2016 or beyond in their quest for justice.

Later this afternoon Deputies from all parties will meet a delegation of former Waterford Crystal workers who are coming to the Dáil to protest at the Government's continuing failure to address the implications of the European Court of Justice ruling. Also here today in the Gallery is the general secretary of Unite, Jimmy Kelly, along with some of the former Waterford Crystal workers.

It is now four and a half years since Waterford Crystal shut, decimating the lives of hundreds of Waterford families and indeed the economy in Waterford city. As if it was not bad enough that their livelihoods disappeared so quickly, these workers were further kicked into the ground when they were told that their pensions were effectively wiped out. This has caused particular hardship for many ex-Crystal workers who tell me that some of them and their families are living on the brink of poverty. Many of them are reliant on social welfare in spite of the fact that they have paid into pension funds, some for 46 or 47 years. It is outrageous. Further, it is unfortunate and appalling that since the factory shut four years ago, some 20 of these workers have passed away without receiving their pension entitlements.

Each year hundreds of cases are settled out of court in Ireland. Will the Taoiseach instruct the State's defence team to meet the legal and union representatives of workers to seek an agreement ahead of a High Court date? After all, to go through this procedure could represent a considerable cost on Irish taxpayers and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a common agreement could be reached with the Unite union without incurring costs of perhaps millions to the taxpayers of Ireland.

The Taoiseach

I was in Waterford recently and I met some of the personnel involved. On 25 April last, the European Court of Justice issued its ruling which contained several clarifications regarding the transposition of the EU directive that had been referred by the High Court in July 2011. The European Court of Justice made its findings and rulings.

I sympathise and empathise with what Deputy Halligan is saying. The downturn in the economy has affected hundreds of thousands of workers. In many cases, including companies such as Waterford Crystal, this has had a devastating impact on those who have paid into pensions over the years.

Deputy Halligan asked me about meetings and so on. The matter is before the High Court now and I cannot involve myself in a parallel negotiating position. I am sure those who are on top of all the details as this prepares to go back to the High Court are well aware of what might or might not result from those negotiations. However, I do not want to give any false hope. There is no point in my saying that we will set up a meeting with the union when there is a parallel course going through the courts and I imagine Deputy Halligan understands that. If we were to take this outside that forum without the authority to make a decision at the end, it would only cause a lot of trouble and confusion and I am sure Deputy Halligan understands that as well. The process is in train, the ECJ has made its ruling and it has gone back to the High Court. Those arguing the issues now have the clarification they sought from the European Court of Justice and I expect that the process of the High Court can deal with this.

Deputy John Halligan

There is nothing prohibiting reaching a settlement. The barristers and legal teams have said as much and it is under the European directive. There is nothing stopping the Government from speaking to the union and making a settlement outside of court. That has been made quite clear by the legal teams. If the Taoiseach read the European directive he would see that it has almost been acknowledged as the way forward.

Is it not regrettable that the State would choose to contest this when it is an open and shut case causing distress and uncertainty to workers? I have referred to the potential costs to taxpayers.

The Taoiseach may be aware that in the United Kingdom all workers are entitled to 90% of their accrued pensions. That ruling was issued by the European courts some years back following a case taken by a worker in the United Kingdom. It is appalling and outrageous that former taoisigh, Ministers and bankers are on huge pensions. One former Minister chose to leave the country and live in another country and have his pension sent out to him. Here, we have workers who have contributed to the Irish economy for up to 47 years with payments to keep the economy going. There were 5,500 workers at one stage. We are going to force those workers, 20 of whom have already passed away, into the High Court and possibly the Supreme Court. There is no sense in doing this when the European Court of Justice has already issued a directive to the effect that these workers are entitled to their pensions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy John Halligan

I again appeal to the Taoiseach, and specifically to members of the Labour Party to whom I have spoken, to do something about this. I appeal to him not to force these workers, who have made a huge contribution to the Irish economy, into the Supreme Court until 2016 or 2017.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

This was a landmark case taken by the union to the European Court of Justice. It is necessary that the clarifications given by the European Court of Justice be available to the State. The negotiating team for the State and the team for the workers are involving themselves with the clarifications and are going back into the High Court. The reason these clarifications are necessary is that these rulings have general application for many thousands of other workers. Consequently, it must be uniform across the board in respect of all workers in that sense.

Deputy John Halligan

Sorry Taoiseach, the specific ruling was in respect of these workers and it can be separated. The specific case covers 1,500 workers and not all workers in the country.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The European Court of Justice rulings arose because of the case taken by the union to the court. Those clarifications have been given in the High Court and both teams now have them. For the State, it is important that these clarifications be available because of the general application across the board for thousands of workers and I hope that with these clarifications, both teams, which are in constant contact with each other, will be able to use that process to arrive at a solution.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Stalling.

An Ceann Comhairle

While that concludes Leaders' Questions for today, I understand the Taoiseach wishes to make a statement.