Topical Issue Debate

VAT Rate Reductions

Deputy Derek Nolan

One of the Government's early successes of which one can be proud - as I am - is the jobs initiative introduced in May 2011 comprising a €500 million stimulus package designed to get the economy moving again. At the time, it was accepted that it was limited and would have a targeted effect and it has done so. The measure particularly targeted at the tourism, hospitality and arts sector, which was to reduce the VAT rate on those products from 13.5% to 9%, had a strong effect in the hospitality and tourism sectors in particular. In many cases, it gave a lifeline and a breathing space to some businesses that were struggling in respect of their margin but it also allowed that sector to reduce its cost base in order that it could be more competitive abroad through a reduction in prices for hotels, and meals, in the arts and so on. The aim was to encourage more people to come to Ireland and support the tourism market, which is an export market. As a Galway Deputy, I am aware the city and county I represent are extremely tourism-dependent. In this context, numbers have increased both this year and last and I believe this job stimulus and the VAT rate have really contributed towards that increase.

Mr. Brendan O'Connor from the economics division of the Department of Finance has stated the 9% VAT rate has had the desired impact it was intended to have and as of the second quarter of 2012, had contributed to a minimum of 6,200 jobs. Both anecdotally and from other studies, one can discern that it has made an even greater contribution to job creation subsequently. There have been positive signs with regard to employment figures in the past year and there has been job creation which, after years of job losses, is to be welcomed. However, we still are at a very fragile state and the jobs in the tourism and hospitality sectors in Galway and nationwide are highly fragile and must be protected. Were the VAT rate to be increased from 9% to 13.5% at the end of the period in question, it would have a negative impact and would cost jobs. Having spoken to hoteliers and restaurateurs across my constituency, I know they simply will be obliged to let people go and that is not something that should be done if it can be avoided.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to discuss this important issue that is critical to the constituency I represent, namely, Carlow-Kilkenny, which also is highly dependent on the tourism sector. The introduction of the reduction in the VAT rate in July 2011 from 13.5% to 9% to boost tourism and stimulate employment in the tourism and hospitality sectors has had a significant impact on all local economies. Based on a survey I undertook in my constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny and based on the level of feedback I received on foot of my interaction with local businesses, the response has been overwhelmingly in favour of retaining the lower rate of VAT. This lower rate has helped businesses to remain open and continue trading. Moreover, in many cases it has helped to increase the workforce by creating jobs, and by increasing the general economic output in the tourism sector it has resulted in lower prices which, in turn, have been passed on to the consumer. It has renewed growth in the domestic and overseas tourism markets and has improved Ireland's international competitiveness in the sector. Figures from the Central Statistics Office indicate an 8% increase in employment in the hospitality sector in the past 12 months. I must state that while this issue may be more complicated from the perspective of the Department of Finance, it appears simple to me and this measure certainly is having the desired effect. People greatly welcome the reduction in the VAT rate locally. A recent report prepared by Fáilte Ireland indicates that domestic tourism figures have risen since 2011 as an increased number of Irish people have holidayed at home. In addition, while total overseas visitor numbers rose by 6% since 2010, more importantly, more than 650,000 domestic visitors were recorded by 2011.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I welcome the Minister and thank him for attending in person to reply to this particular issue. I also commend my colleagues on raising this matter. As my colleagues mentioned, I also come from a constituency that is heavily dependent on the tourism industry and this matter is important. I acknowledge there was a good season both in Kerry and nationwide this year and I wish to see that continue into the future. While there were other factors, such as The Gathering and the good weather, the VAT rate of 9% also has been a factor in the performance of the tourism industry over the past two years. I commend the Minister highly on introducing this measure in the first place and I acknowledge he did mention it was a temporary measure at the time. However, if I may use a footballing analogy, I would compare this with a team that was performing quite poorly until a blood substitute was brought on as a temporary measure. As the aforementioned blood substitute has grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck, he now deserves to be left on the field and perhaps even to start in the next game.

This is how I perceive the issue. If at all possible, the Minister should reconsider the figures or examine the figures that have been presented by organisations such as the Irish Tourist Industry Confederation, ITIC, and other players in the industry and find some way to try to continue with this measure that is creating and sustaining jobs. It is allowing tourism-related businesses to grow, to make capital investments and to build for the future, which is what is needed. I always cite this move by the Government as being one of the positive, pro-jobs and proactive measures that have been taken since it came to office and I seek its continuation. I heard recently that apparently, lapdancing clubs are availing of this measure and perhaps there is scope to remove certain areas from its application. However, I believe businesses that are supporting many jobs, such as hotels and restaurants, really need to be supported and I ask the Minister to do everything he can to try to retain the 9% rate for as long as possible.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael Noonan)

I thank Deputies Nolan, Ann Phelan and Griffin for giving me this opportunity to speak on the issue of the 9% VAT rate. The programme for Government included a proposal to reduce the 13.5% VAT rate by 1.5% until the end of 2013. However, as part of the Government jobs initiative, it subsequently was decided to introduce a more targeted VAT reduction measure by introducing the 9% VAT rate for the period from 1 July 2011 to 31 December 2013 in respect of tourism-related services, including hotel and holiday accommodation, various entertainment services, the use of sporting facilities, hairdressing services and various printed matter. The tourism sector is a key sector in the Irish economy and the measure was aimed at reducing costs during a very challenging time for the sector. The objective was to boost tourism and create additional jobs and the measure has been successful in this regard. The 9% measure was introduced in the Finance (No. 2) Act 2011 on a temporary basis and is due to expire on 31 December 2013, at which point the rate is due to revert to 13.5%.

As with all tax measures, the decision to reduce the VAT rate by four and a half percentage points came at a significant cost to the Exchequer and the measure was estimated to cost €120 million in 2011, €350 million in 2012 and in 2013 and €60 million in 2014. As the rate was introduced for a defined period, failure to revert from the 9% rate to 13.5% would come at a cost to the Exchequer. As I outlined to the Restaurants Association of Ireland directly on this subject, this additional cost would have to be found elsewhere and I invited the industry to bring forward proposals. The House will recall that the cost of the VAT reduction was offset by a 0.6% levy on pension funds.

With regard to the economic impact on the tourism sector due to the introduction of the 9% VAT rate, the most recent data available from the Central Statistics Office of economic growth broken down by sector relates to the year 2012, which shows that for the accommodation and food services sector there was a year on year growth, in gross value added, compared to 2011. Expenditure by overseas travellers to Ireland recorded an increase of 0.6% in 2012 compared with 2011. In addition, the first quarter of 2013 recorded an increase in expenditure of 12% compared with the same period last year. There is a clear impact in terms of employment in the accommodation and food service sector, which has increased by over 13% between the period from the second quarter in 2011 to the second quarter in 2013 - an increase of 15,000 jobs in the sector. In terms of the number of trips to Ireland for the period May to July 2013, the number of trips increased by 7.6% on the same period last year, while for the period January to July the number of trips to Ireland increased by 6%.

Since the introduction of the 9% VAT rate, a number of studies and reports have been undertaken and published as to its effectiveness and value for money. A research paper entitled "UK Tourists, the Great Recession and Irish Tourism Policy" by Richard Tol and Niamh Callaghan was published early in 2013 by the Economic and Social Review. This paper concludes that while the VAT rate reduction on tourism activity did increase visitor numbers, the financial benefit was far less than the cost to the Exchequer of the VAT reduction. A report undertaken by Deloitte on behalf of Fáilte Ireland published 1 July 2013, entitled "Analysis of the Impact of the VAT Reduction on Irish Tourism and Tourism Employment", concludes that the introduction of the 9% rate appears to have met its original aims of driving employment and stimulating activity in the sector, at a lower cost than originally estimated.

A commitment was made when the 9% VAT rate was introduced to evaluate the measure before the end of 2012 to determine its effectiveness in aiding the tourism industry. To this effect, my Department published a paper, as part of the medium-term fiscal statement in November 2012, entitled "Measuring the Impact of the Jobs Initiative: Was the VAT reduction passed on and were jobs created?" This evaluation concluded that the 9% rate appears to have had the desired effect both in terms of price pass-through to consumers and by contributing to an employment gain of 6,200 additional jobs in the second quarter of 2012 relative to the second quarter in 2011 in the accommodation and food services sector of the economy. As stated earlier, more recent CSO figures from the second quarter of 2013 show an increase of almost 15,000 persons employed in this sector since the second quarter of 2011.

It is clear that this measure was successful and the 9% rate produced growth in the sector and increased jobs. However, the revenues generated by the additional level of growth did not exceed the cost of the measure. In line with best international practice, the 9% VAT rate was introduced as a temporary measure and is due to expire at the end of December 2013, at which point it will revert to 13.5%. Reducing the VAT rate to the 9% rate would be very costly to the Exchequer and would require an increase in taxation or reduction in expenditure elsewhere. Any proposal to reduce the VAT rate from the 13.5% rate will be considered in the context of the budget.

Deputy Derek Nolan

There is a great deal in what the Minister said about the economic analyses, but all the analyses stated that jobs were created. I believe that is true. With the 9% rate we have created a stimulus for a sector that was doing very poorly and have created, as a result, a far more attractive tourism sector which is attracting people into the country because of our cost base. If the 9% rate created jobs, the corollary is that increasing the 9% rate will cost jobs. That is what the opposite of what is said in the studies means. We cannot exclude that.

Among the businesses I talked to in Galway yesterday, a major employer in the city told me that with rates, insurance and water as fixed costs, the only way he could pass on the increased rate would be through losing jobs. The increase in numbers has meant that he is paying more VAT due to the lower rate than he was when the higher rate was in place. It is generating business and he is paying more VAT. We must be very careful before we act on this. Certainly, a slashed increase from 9% to 13.5% would have a devastating impact on this sector.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I understand the constraints on the Minister, but I agree with my colleague that a return to the 13.5% rate will have a devastating effect at this stage. It is tantalising to see the growth in the sector. Throughout the summer I walked down High Street in Kilkenny and saw the number of people who were able to go into the local restaurants. The restaurants will not be thanked for having to pass on higher prices to consumers. Given our current economic situation, there is a certain confidence level here and if we return to the 13.5% rate, we will strike at the heart of that confidence. The businesses are beginning to gain confidence and it would be a retrograde step to return to the other rate. As one of the businesses said:

There is no consumer confidence in the marketplace and in its absence struggling ... businesses, regardless of how many people they employ, are not going to be thanked by the public for price increases. They are going to lose out and suffer further, maybe even closing. While the Government has no responsibility for helping me maintain a business, it does have a responsibility to create the environment in which we can create jobs.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I again urge the Minister to see if there is any way to continue with this rate. It is very worthwhile. It has worked and is a beacon for other sectors of the economy. Seeing tourism-related and labour-intensive industries growing jobs gives hope to other areas, for example, construction, which accounts for 100,000 or one-quarter of the people on the live register. They could potentially benefit from something like this. I accept that something must pay for it, but there are other innovative ways of raising the revenue to do that. I was told recently that the €1 levy on wine has yielded €45 million in the first eight months of this year and will yield perhaps €70 million in the full 12 months. Consider other measures. A 1 cent levy on text messaging would apparently yield €120 million based on current usage patterns. If we had put a small levy on windfalls, such as EuroMillions jackpots, it would have yielded €20 million this year. There are choices to be made and I urge the Minister to explore every avenue to try to keep this rate in place to maintain and possibly create more jobs.

Deputy Michael Noonan

There is a misunderstanding about what the position is. The reduction was introduced as a temporary measure to pump-prime the industry. If Deputies ask me to leave the rate as it is, that means 13.5% from 1 January next year. Leaving it as it is means it reverts automatically to the higher rate because it was reduced for a temporary period. That is the reason it is so difficult to do it. It is not a question of leaving it as it is, but of making an independent decision now to cut the 13.5% to 9% for next year. That costs a great deal of money. I introduced it without being requested to do so by the industry. I was not lobbied to do it but I considered it a classic pump-priming exercise to create jobs and activity. It has done that.

It requires a new decision to keep the rate at 9%, and that costs a lot of money. Members will appreciate that the budget situation is quite tight and that getting that money from another sector or from another set of people to continue to provide the low VAT rate in this sector is a problem. However, no decision has been taken yet. The law provides that it automatically reverts to the higher rate with effect from 1 January next, and to change that requires a decision. Of course we will consider the Deputies' submissions and comments. The three of them represent constituencies that have very strong tourism industries.

The idea of pump-priming is that where something is weak, one gives it a break to make it stronger. However, when it is strong it should fend for itself. I do not agree with the argument that if the rate returns, jobs will be lost again. The point of pump-priming is that sectors should be strong enough to walk alone.

On Deputy Griffin's last point about other sectors of the economy, in parallel with the bailout programme we have another programme which deals with the economy on a sector-by-sector basis.

If the Deputies examine the two most recent Finance Acts, they will encounter a series of measures geared towards repairing the damaged sectors of the economy and reinforcing the stronger ones. We will continue to use that approach. I will consider what the Deputies said in the context of the budget preparations, which have just commenced and which will conclude in the House on 15 October.

Local Authority Housing Issues

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the Chair for allowing me to raise this matter and the Minister of State for coming before the House to take it. There are approximately 166 housing vacancies in the area in which I live. There are 70 in the south-west inner city, 70 plus between Ballyfermot and Inchicore and 27 in the Crumlin-Kimmage area. In Dublin city alone, approximately 16,000 people are on the housing list. Some 7,000 of these individuals live in Dublin South-Central. The majority of people who attend my clinics have problems with housing. They are not able to get houses and many of them have been on the list for more than ten years. Yesterday, the Simon Community announced that the number of people sleeping rough in the period July to September increased by 88% over the figure for the corresponding period last year. On one night its volunteers found 85 people sleeping rough on the streets.

At this point I must thank the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Simon Community and, above all, the Salvation Army. Were it not for those services, this city would be flooded with people sleeping rough at night. I visited Merchant's Quay in the company of the Taoiseach during the summer. Roughly 300 people attend the services available there each day. They are able to obtain meals, wash themselves and do other important things such as seeing a doctor or a dentist. Those we met were mainly men between the ages of 30 and 50. Aside from their alcohol and drug addiction problems, their main reason for being there is because they are homeless. If they have places in hostels, they are obliged to leave by a certain time and then spend the day on the street. The Taoiseach indicated that he understood their plight and made a commitment to taking action in respect of the problems of homelessness in Dublin, particularly in the Merchant's Quay area where many men sleep rough at night.

I have been informed that Dublin City Council's budget does not allow for any further work on vacant units. Only one contractor is employed in respect of works in Dublin South-Central. All the other contractors have been let go. The average turnaround time for contractors is six weeks for a flat and longer for a house. If the matter goes through the maintenance department of Dublin City Council, it can take anything between six months to a year for work to be completed. This is extremely troubling. Maintenance crews, particularly craftsmen, have been redeployed and some have even lost their jobs. The latter makes it even more difficult for those who are left to do their ordinary work - carrying out everyday necessary maintenance on houses and flats - properly and they find it impossible to spend a fortnight making vacant houses and flats capable of habitation again. Furthermore, a large number of private landlords are abandoning the rent allowance scheme and this is leading increasing numbers of people into local authority housing. This is also troubling because many of those involved have been in private rented accommodation for up to 15 years. I understand that landlords may wish to move on and, given the times that are in it, sell their properties. However, this is placing a huge burden on the city council.

I grew up near Richmond Barracks, which later became Keogh Square and then St. Michael's Estate. It was not the best place in which to live but at least people had a roof over their heads. Anybody from the area will acknowledge that at least they had homes.

The actions of those in the voluntary housing sector are adding to the problem. Voluntary housing organisations have become very selective with regard to the tenants they choose. This means that the council is being obliged to house many of the most vulnerable and at-risk individuals in society. The needs of these people really need to be addressed. I request that the Minister of State seek a meeting with the new city manager to see what might be done in the context of making available some of the long-term voids that are in existence, particularly those in Dublin South-Central, in order that very young men there might avail of a bed-sit, even for the evening.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan)

I thank Deputy Catherine Byrne for raising this issue and I know she is extremely concerned about it. On her final point, I intend to meet the new Dublin city manager as soon as possible. I will be addressing with him all the issues to which the Deputy refers.

The management and maintenance of local authority housing stock, including the carrying out of pre-letting repairs, is a matter for each individual local authority under section 58 of the Housing Act 1966. My Department is committed to supporting local authorities in maintaining and improving the quality of the national social housing stock through a range of measures, including large-scale urban regeneration programmes, improving the standard and energy efficiency of dwellings, pre-letting repairs and improvement and refurbishment works to vacant properties, in order to return them to productive use as quickly as possible. This year, my Department is providing funding of more than €62 million to Dublin City Council in respect of its 2013 social housing programme. This includes €31 million for regeneration projects in Ballymun and at a number of other locations in Dublin city. A further €9.8 million is being provided under the remedial works scheme for the refurbishment of tenanted and vacant units in Liberty House and Bunratty.

Constraints on the public capital programme and the reduction in new social housing supply have added to the urgency of focusing on vacant stock. This is relevant both in terms of vacancies management and rent receipts. In this regard, the most recent value for money study on management and maintenance of vacant dwellings in local authorities, which was carried out by the Local Government Audit Service in 2011, contained a number of sound recommendations in respect of issues such as maintenance and repairs, allocation and refusals, tenant sustainability, etc. All of these should assist local authorities in implementing improvement works programmes. One of the recommendations was to the effect that Dublin city would pilot a term maintenance and refurbishment works contract in order to reduce significantly the re-letting time for vacant dwellings. This has been very successful in reducing the average turnaround time from 27.82 weeks to 6.4 weeks. In excess of 500 units have been completed under this programme to date. In addition, 107 units are being refurbished with direct labour.

Since 2011, a more target-driven, cost-effective and administratively efficient improvement programme is being implemented. Making vacant stock available for re-letting was a priority in 2011 and 2012 and, because of the decline in internal capital receipts, my Department increased the level of capital support to local authorities for improvement works and refurbishment of long-term voids. Over the course of these two years, my Department focused almost exclusively on refurbishing vacant properties with the objective of bringing as many as possible of these back into productive use. During that period, 4,700 units were improved at a cost of more than €52 million. A total of 2,659 units were refurbished in 2011 and a further 2,115 in 2012. Given the constraints on capital budgets for new stock and the concentration on vacant properties in recent years and in view of the substantial numbers of vacant properties which were improved, my Department is focusing attention on those occupied and older dwellings which lack adequate insulation and draught-proofing. Many tenants were concerned by the fact that vacant units were being refurbished while no works were being carried out on their properties. We were very conscious of that fact.

Local authorities are undertaking energy retrofitting works in conjunction with pre-letting repairs with the objective of getting best value for money and ensuring the existing stock will be available to meet housing need. A sum of €10 million is being provided for this purpose in 2013 as part of the social housing investment programme. On 5 June, I announced a new €50 million, three year jobs stimulus energy efficiency investment programme for local authority homes. This will target the 25,000 least energy-efficient properties and will result in warmer homes and lower energy bills for thousands of families. It will also create approximately 1,000 jobs in the sector. Over the next three years, a suite of works to include wall and roof-attic insulation as well as draught proofing of windows and doors will be carried out on each of these properties.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I welcome the Minister of State's reply. It is great that 25,000 people will have their properties improved and made energy efficient. However, I am concerned about those who have no homes. I understand the huge commitment that has been made in respect of regeneration projects, particularly those in my area at St. Theresa's Gardens, Fatima Mansions and Dolphin House. All that the Minister of State outlined will be of no use to people who are on the housing waiting list and who cannot get into houses or flats. As already stated, 166 units are vacant at present. I cannot understand the logic used by the city council and others in respect of this matter. Surely it would be better to return those units to the system because people would then be paying rent in respect of them. I accept that the amount involved would only be a drop in the ocean but at least 166 additional families would be housed. Like the Minister of State, I am lucky to have a roof over my head. I cannot imagine what it must be like not to be able to go home each evening and lie in one's own bed. That must be a terrible state of affairs. One can understand the dilemma faced by those who are homeless.

There is a major problem within Dublin City Council in the context of the recruitment of staff, particularly craftspeople.

When people leave a maintenance section in Dublin City Council, they are not replaced. That is very bad not only for the vacant properties but also for other properties. The new letting arrangement will come into place in the next month or two in Dublin City Council. Will it make any difference when there are no units out there to give in? People will be judged on their length of tenure. What will happen is - I have spoken to many staff about this - that people in rented accommodation will go onto the priority list because most of them will have been living in rented accommodation for 15 years. They will go directly back into the system at the top. The ones who have no property within the Dublin City Council area, those who are homeless and others who are on the list, will not have an opportunity. I thank the Minister of State for her answer but radical changes must be made in Dublin City Council. I know she and the Minister, Deputy Hogan, will do their best. I hope the new city manager, Mr. Owen Keegan, will be given the opportunity to meet the Minister of State as soon as possible.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I hope to meet the new city manager and the director of service for housing in the near future to address these issues. To add to what I said, we have also submitted a €100 million proposal under the Structural and Investment Funds to the European Union for deep retrofitting of 2,000 apartments and flats, and 1,500 of those are in Dublin city. We are fairly confident that we fulfil the requirements for the Structural Fund money, and we hope we will get information on that in the very near future. That is another measure we are taking.

There are a variety of ways in which we want to bring the units which are there back into use, which was the subject in the Deputy's Topical Issue. I am also very conscious of the need to increase supply in whatever way we can. In Dublin, in particular, there is a real issue around housing supply, both private and public, and there are real pressures in the private and public rented sectors, which we recognise. I have made a strong commitment to working as hard as we possibly can to maintain our budgets for homelessness, despite the pressures in the current times. These are all priorities and, as the Deputy requested, we will address them with the Dublin City Council manager and other colleagues on Dublin City Council.

Syrian Conflict

Deputy Brendan Smith

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to raise once again in this House the very important issue of the very desperate situation in Syria. I have raised the matter in Topical Issue debates on a number of occasions. This is the first opportunity I have had in this House to congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Donohoe, on his appointment and wish him every success in his important work as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs.

Everyone in this House will welcome the fact that Syria is about to become the 190th state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention, thanks to a US and Russia-brokered deal. This convention bans the acquisition and use of chemical weapons and requires state parties to destroy existing stocks and production facilities on joining. This is a significant development given the recent deadly chemical weapons attack on Ghouta, a rebel-held Damascus suburb on 21 August. The return of a team of UN chemical weapons inspectors today to the Syrian capital of Damascus to complete their investigation into "pending credible allegations" of chemical weapons use in Syria's civil war is also to be welcomed.

It appears as though some parties are beginning to engage in constructive dialogue to stop what has been an international tragedy, resulting in the death of more than 100,000 Syrians. Some 2.5 million Syrians have been displaced from their own country and more than 4 million are displaced within their own country. Unfortunately, it is the humanitarian issue of this generation.

The situation remains very precarious. The fact that several Syrian rebel groups, including a powerful al-Qaeda-linked faction, said today that they reject the authority of the western-backed opposition coalition shows that a stable and settled peace is still far from secure. Further international engagement is, therefore, vital. Any progress that has been made must be consolidated by increasing pressure from international powers, including the European Union and the United Nations, whose Security Council has, to date, been totally ineffective in dealing with this issue. The lack of a coherent strategy coming from Brussels on this issue is disappointing and shows that despite many EU institutional changes, increased competencies and, indeed, increased staff in recent years in the European External Action Service, we still find ourselves searching for common cause when it comes to our approach for foreign affairs.

I very much welcome the Tánaiste's announcement today that Ireland will help to facilitate the destruction of chemical weapons from Syria through the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. This commitment is reflective of our long-standing opposition to the use of weapons of mass destruction. I have raised this matter to seek further clarification as to how this commitment will work in practice. Under what budget will this funding come from in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade? What commitments have been received from our international partners in regard to their participation in and support for this very worthy endeavour?

I put on record my concern that it appears it is the international community which will have to shoulder the full cost of these measures and that the Syrian regime will have to pay nothing towards the destruction of these weapons. Will Minister of State clarify this point or come back to me subsequently on it? Was the Syrian regime approached to fund the destruction of these weapons at all?

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I thank the Deputy for the kind words at the start of his contribution, which I appreciate. I also thank him for the number of times he has raised this vital issue. What was a beautiful summer for many of us was haunted by those awful images we saw of the use of chemical weapons on those poor communities. Whether those weapons would be used was a fear many people had and it was truly horrific to see them being deployed by a state against its own people.

The Deputy touched on a number of areas which are very relevant to the scale of challenges we face. He very accurately said that this is the largest displacement of individuals in modern times. I had a meeting with a delegation from Turkey today. It has almost 500,000 Syrians within its borders who have been displaced by the degree of violence and civil war to which the Deputy referred. The Deputy was correct to identify the scale of deaths which occurred before the terrible events we are discussing. He identified a deep complexity within this situation which is that it is a highly fragmented political situation. The Deputy also identified the great difficulty any outside groups have in regard to playing in a role in it. As he noted, if any group in that environment is seen to get support from the outside, it can only lead to further instability.

The Deputy articulated concern regarding the inability of European institutions to play a firmer role in putting together a response in this regard. I point out that many members of the European Union have the same concerns we do regarding the delegation of sovereignty in the areas of foreign policy and defence policy to European institutions. Many of the issues on which we have touched are those which governments decide for themselves. They try to reach agreement. We would be sensitive to an outside body having a role in regard to the deployment of our armed forces elsewhere.

It is understandable that other countries would feel the same.

I would like to respond to some of the particular points raised with me by the Deputy. The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, OPCW, which was established under the Chemical Weapons Convention, will be playing a role in this regard. I think the Deputy referred to the convention. Ireland is currently a member of the executive council of the OPCW. Through that body, we will reach an understanding on how and when our funding will be deployed and what decision-making process will be used when these weapons are being destroyed and decommissioned. I understand that Ireland, along with other members of the executive council of the OPCW, is awaiting a draft decision from bodies that are involved in this negotiation. It is foreseen that the inspectors will inspect all chemical weapons storage and production facilities in Syria. This will begin very shortly as a first step. Subsequently, a detailed destruction plan will be developed. I cannot confirm for the Deputy the detail of the discussion with the Syrian authorities on the cost plan. I can confirm, however, on the basis of comments I have seen elsewhere, that the cost involved in this exercise will be truly gigantic. That is why countries like Ireland are playing a role in the hoped-for destruction of these weapons.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I thank the Minister of State for his response. His commitment to using every opportunity to highlight the huge humanitarian disaster that has taken place over the past two years is obvious. He will be aware that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade had a detailed discussion on this issue with the Tánaiste last week. Many non-governmental organisations and sister organisations of some of the Irish non-governmental organisations are doing outstanding work in exceptionally difficult circumstances.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I appreciate the fact that significant funding from our overseas development aid budget has been allocated for this worthy humanitarian effort. In fairness to Europe, it has been the best contributor to the humanitarian effort. As I have said to the Tánaiste during previous debates on this matter during Question Time and Topical Issues, Europe needs to keep reminding the rest of the international community of its serious obligation to help out and try to alleviate the horror, suffering and nightmare that is so prevalent in Syria and, as the Minister of State mentioned, in adjoining countries. In particular, the EU must remind the UN Security Council of the need to fulfil its obligations. I thought Commissioner Ashton was extremely quiet on this issue during the summer months, so I was interested to read the statement she made about a week ago in which she quite rightly stated that the chemical attack was a blatant "violation of international law, a war crime, and a crime against humanity". Her statement, which was issued after the Council of Ministers meetings, also called "on the UN Security Council to assume its responsibilities". I think every parliament that is concerned with human rights and with the dignity of every individual must send a clear message to that effect.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank the Deputy again for raising this issue. I would like to make a point about our attitude towards European institutions. We should not criticise European institutions for not deploying powers which member states have chosen not to give them. While the Deputy did not make such a criticism, the point is worth making all the same. Many of the areas which are most sensitive to us are still matters of national competence and decision-making. The Deputy rightly picked up on the role of Commissioner Ashton and her organisation, the European External Action Service. It is worthwhile to make the point that Commissioner Ashton and her colleagues in the service were the first people to have the ability to meet very important individuals in Egypt in the aftermath of the difficulty that happened there. The centrality of the Commissioner and her body in the work that is taking place in the Middle East is also worth pointing out. Indeed, I remind the House that they orchestrated and delivered the recent massive breakthrough in the Balkans. The service is dealing with the aftermath of terrible tragedy there as well. The Deputy referenced very well the outstanding work of many Irish organisations in that area. I suggest this is the clearest example of the huge value of neutrality to a country like Ireland. Neutrality is not just a policy choice of pragmatism, it is a principle of absolute value. One of the reasons our organisations can do this kind of work is that they are associated with the neutrality of this country. This is also the reason we hope to be in a position to be able to deploy troops to an area adjacent to this terrible difficulty and protect vulnerable people who need help to ensure they can live their lives safely. I thank the Deputy again for his remarks. He referred to the fact that the Government has contributed €200,000 to this. Ireland has now contributed a total of €11 million to this tragedy. The Deputy can be assured of our continued focus on doing all we can in this regard.

Ambulance Service Provision

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for allowing me to raise this important matter as a Topical Issue. I wish the Minister of State, Deputy Donohoe, well in his new position. I understand why the Minister for Health and the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, are not here today. I would like to send the Minister of State my best wishes. I understand perfectly why nobody from the Department of Health is able to be here today. I am not giving out about it. I am saying I understand it.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Sure.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

This is a very important issue. The great town of Killarney has been served by two ambulances for 36 years. Unfortunately, it has been decided as part of a reconfiguration - a wonderful word that is used by the HSE - to take away one of the ambulances that serve the town. This ridiculous decision will have a detrimental knock-on effect on the ambulance service in places like Kenmare. While I am grateful that the town will retain its 24 hour, seven day emergency ambulance service, it is obvious that the Kenmare ambulance will be called on when a second ambulance is required in Killarney. That, in turn, will mean that Kenmare and its massive hinterland, which includes places like Cuhig, Lauragh, Sneem, Bunane and Kilgarvan, will have no ambulance service.

It is wrong that this measure is being taken. It was highlighted recently by people like Councillor Niall 'Botty' O'Callaghan and my brother, Councillor Danny Healy-Rae, when we met HSE officials at a controversial briefing. While we have been fighting vigorously against what the HSE is doing, we have to be realistic at this stage and accept it is going ahead. We need to decide what this situation will mean for us. I have resigned myself to having to make certain requests. Confidence in the ambulance service in Kerry has been lost because of this move. At the very least, the HSE should make provision for busy times. Everybody knows the population of Killarney explodes during the summer, at Christmas and when Munster finals take place. Provision should be made for a second emergency ambulance service to be provided at those times. That is a reasonable request. It is also reasonable to ask for the situation to be reviewed in three months time. There should be an examination of how the new system that has been put in place by the HSE is working. It should involve all of the stakeholders, including the local GPs in Killarney, who provide an excellent service, and the local town councillors, who are unfortunately about to be abolished. While they are still in place, there should be another meeting involving people like Councillor O'Callaghan at which the manner in which the service has unfolded - how it is working out on the ground - could be discussed.

I would like to mention another aspect of this issue before I conclude. As the Minister of State knows, the emergency call-out centre has been taken from County Kerry and centralised up here in Townsend Street. I was totally and absolutely against this move because I did not think the Townsend Street facility was fit for purpose.

No external safety audit of it was carried out while an internal safety audit was carried out by the HSE itself, which was totally inadequate. Situations have arisen since that has happened and I will give one example. Rock Street in Tralee is five minutes from Kerry General Hospital. A man suffered a serious stroke recently. It was 45 minutes before the ambulance arrived for him and that was a direct result of taking our call-out centre away from County Kerry where we had local knowledge and centralising it in Townsend Street.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and for acknowledging why I am taking this on behalf of the Department of Health. During the summer, I had opportunity to spend a wonderful week in many of the areas to which the Deputy referred. I have some small appreciation of some of the difficulties to which he has referred.

I would make the point to the Deputy that he is very strong in opposing so much of the work the Government is doing when a tax increase is put forward or a spending cut put in place. All the Government is trying to do is put in place reforms to ensure that out of the many billions of euro of taxpayers' money that are still being spent, it can provide a level of service to the Deputy's constituents that he wants to see them provided with and the Government wants to see maintained. If I have a look at what has happened here in respect of the national ambulance service and the measures being proposed there, I hope that despite the Deputy's caution, it will be seen as a way in which our front-line professionals can make the best possible use of what they have at their disposal.

It is a new region-wide service, as the Deputy is aware, that looks to put in place a better way of working to replace the current local delivery systems. It comes directly from an analysis of the needs of the south Kerry area and the best use of emergency resources, including paramedics and advanced paramedics. This plan was agreed by HSE management, union representatives and staff within the HSE so it is a model that went through consultation with all of the people who will be involved in delivering the service and puts in place a number of benefits for patients and the people on whose behalf the Deputy is raising this issue.

It replaces on-call work practices with on-duty rostering to bring south Kerry into line with most of the region. This means that during a shift, paramedic staff are at their bases or in their vehicles ready to be dispatched immediately to 112 or 999 calls as opposed to waiting for notification to come through to them. It looks to put in place the best possible use of emergency vehicles and personnel. It allows for the introduction of an intermediate care vehicle for routine transfers of patients between acute and community hospitals. It permits the retention of the ambulance stations in Killarney, Cahersiveen and Kenmare as locations for deployment in the south Kerry area.

In a modern emergency service, treatment, as the Deputy is aware, begins at the scene of an incident. The patients are assessed, treated and stabilised before being transported to the most appropriate facility. The national ambulance service has highly trained health professionals in south Kerry at paramedic and advanced paramedic level who can and will perform life-saving interventions and other advanced treatment at the scene of an emergency before moving the patient safely to an acute facility for further treatment. The Minister has been assured that many of the concerns raised by the Deputy will be dealt with in the new arrangements that are being put in place.

Under the new arrangements, an extra 126 resource hours are now in place in the three stations I mentioned earlier and the move to on-duty services also means that the entire region of south Kerry will have a 24-hour day, seven-day week emergency ambulance service. This means that the people have timely access to highly skilled paramedic and advanced paramedic staff day and night.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He talks about saving money and reconfiguring and reforming the delivery of our services on the ground but all places are not the same. Save Our Ambulance Kenmare under the chairmanship of Michael Hayes was formed to retain our 24-hour, seven-day week ambulance service for the town and did excellent work in highlighting how important it was to have a full ambulance service in the town. It highlighted a situation that could arise as a result of taking the ambulance out of Kenmare to cover Killarney because there will be only one basic ambulance serving that big town. Its work has been successful but when that ambulance goes, situations could arise. The town is a very busy place in the summer. There are road accidents and an elderly population. If a person does not have the service of a proper ambulance and if a first responder or some other vehicle goes back to Kenmare, which is a good two hours from Kerry General Hospital, the delay incurred by first sending a first responder, stabilising the patient and then having to wait for an ambulance to come from God only knows where at that stage - Tralee, Cork or Bantry - would be enormous. One would be talking about many hours before that person would finish up in an acute hospital. That would ultimately lead to the loss of lives, which is why I am grateful to have the opportunity to have this Topical Issues debate today, but the Minister of State's response does not deal with the problem we are facing on the ground.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank the Deputy for his response. I would emphasise a number of points in response to him while understanding completely the concerns of the people he represents. In no way did I mean to suggest that my small amount of time spent there is equal to the knowledge the Deputy and other representatives would have regarding the concerns people are articulating. That said, I emphasise some points we discussed earlier.

The first is that due to the change that has taken place, an additional 126 hours will be rostered every week. Due to the changes in work practices to which staff and unions have agreed, more work hours will be available. I again confirm that no ambulance stations will be closed as a result of this change and emphasise that due to this, not only will an extra 126 hours be available, there will be 96 more on-duty emergency hours available per week in the region. Due to the changes to which staff have agreed, on-duty and response times will improve. I have been informed that the reason for that is because emergency ambulances will be available straightaway and where necessary, ambulances from adjacent stations will provide dynamic and direct cover.

I understand very well because I have had to deal with these issues in my own constituency in respect of changes in front-line services. Whenever any change is made in a service that is so sensitive, people are obviously deeply concerned. All I can do is conclude by emphasising that more hours will be made available as a result of these changes which have been brokered and delivered by the staff, unions and management who are involved in the very provision of the service about which the Deputy is so understandably concerned.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 25 Sep 2013