Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Oct 2013

Vol. 815 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Emigration Data

Deputy John Lyons

In keeping with the final contribution in the preceding debate, I take this opportunity to congratulate my own county of Dublin on the fantastic victory of its team in the all-Ireland football final some weeks ago.

I acknowledge the fantastic work being done by the Central Statistics Office in collecting data on emigration from this State. That information is gathered from the quarterly national household survey and an analysis of applications for visas to countries such as the United States, Canada and Australia. The CSO also examines national insurance numbers given to Irish people in Britain. This considerable quantity of material can help to answer some of our questions about the people who are leaving this State.

Several other organisations are also engaged in data-gathering exercises on the issue of emigration. For example, representatives of the National Youth Council of Ireland attended a recent meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to speak about the information they compiled earlier this year about young people who have left Ireland. Of particular interest is the study released last Friday by the EMIGRE project at University College Cork. That report is based on more than 900 responses from households throughout the country, 1,500 responses from emigrants who completed an online survey, 500 responses from emigrants the report authors met at jobs fairs, and 55 indepth interviews carried out via Skype and Viber with Irish citizens living abroad. The study reflects a fine blend of both quantitative and qualitative research. As such, it tells us not only the number of young people on the move and their destination but also why they left and how they are finding life in their new country.

Emigration is a sensitive topic, and very few people in the country have been left untouched by it. Every Deputy to whom I have spoken has a family member, neighbour or friend who has left Ireland to live and work abroad. My niece has just been home for five weeks with her new baby before returning to Australia. She has made the decision to make her life in that country. It is important to note that people leave for a variety of reasons. Some of our recent emigrants are the young, educated people of whom we hear so much. Others are less well educated and were forced to leave because they cannot find work at home. There are also older people leaving behind families and mortgages. The vast majority of emigrants - 70%, according to the EMIGRE study - are in their 20s, almost half of whom left full-time employment in Ireland to live and work elsewhere. In other words, there are some significant differences between the types of people who are leaving now and those who left in the past. The EMIGRE study indicates that some 70% of those who leave keep in touch with events in Ireland by reading an online Irish newspaper. More than 90% of them are maintaining contact with friends and family at home, whether through Skype, Viber or Facebook, the latter being the most popular. Clearly, recent emigrants are eager to keep in touch with what is happening at home. The study also found that 40% of respondents would like to return to Ireland, with 82% saying they are likely to do so if the economy improves.

Does the Government intend to use the detailed data from the EMIGRE study to inform its policy response to emigration? We know the numbers leaving are large and growing, but there are no definitive statistics in this regard. We must adopt the most comprehensive approach possible in terms of analysing who is leaving, where they are coming from and why they have opted to move abroad. The economy is recovering and growth rates are slowly rising. The live register figures from last week show a decrease and are expected to reduce further in the coming months. Ireland has turned a corner. We owe it to those people who have left our shores, in many cases because they felt they had little choice but to do so, to create a policy response that will facilitate them returning as the economic situation continues to improve.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

As the Minister of State whose remit includes the Central Statistics Office, I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Emigration, particularly by young people, is an issue of concern to many families across the country. The most recent population and migration estimates were published by the CSO on 29 August. The figures include estimates of immigration and emigration for the 12 months to mid-April of this year. The results show that the numbers leaving increased to 89,000 from 87,000 the previous year. Immigration also increased over this period from 53,000 to 56,000. These combined changes resulted in a total net outward migration of 33,000, which shows a slight decline from the figure of 34,000 in the previous year.

The principal source of information on emigration and immigration is the quarterly national household survey. That survey is used to provide information on the flow of migrants by sex, age group, origin and destination, and nationality. Given the underlying seasonality and variability of all migration flows, the CSO does not publish these estimates on a sub-annual basis, such as every quarter or six months. In addition, the provision of data at a more detailed level, such as emigration by county, is not possible due to measurement issues associated with sub-populations in sample surveys of this nature.

However, the CSO is continuously improving the scope of information in this area. Recent improvements include the publication of data on the nationality of emigrants, estimates of the total population by nationality, and more detailed breakdowns of emigration and immigration by country of destination and origin. For example, in its most recent release the CSO published, for the first time, figures on emigration to Australia and Canada as individual destinations. The data show that in 2013, some 15,000 people moved to Australia, while 5,000 moved to Canada. Britain continues to be the principal destination for emigrants from Ireland, with 21,900 moving there in 2013. It is interesting to note that 5,000 people moved from Australia to Ireland in 2013, while some 10,000 moved here from the United Kingdom. There is clearly an ongoing movement of people both in and out of Ireland to these destinations.

The CSO also publishes annual figures on migration by age group. The 2013 data show that the peak age group for people emigrating was between 25 and 44, with 41,000, or 46%, of all emigrants in this category. That cohort is followed by those aged 15 to 24 years, who made up 35,000, or 40% of the total. The CSO does not produce data on age group broken down by nationality as the sample survey does not support that level of detail.

While people emigrate for a number of reasons, the desire to find meaningful work and opportunity is a prominent one. The Government is acutely aware of the scourge of youth unemployment and is prioritising policy responses accordingly.

The overarching strategy for tackling unemployment, including among our young people, is to ensure we have the best environment for a strong economic recovery. This includes, for example, the Action Plan for Jobs which improves enterprise supports, competitiveness, innovation and productivity. This is leading to many new job opportunities. In addition, we have strengthened programmes and services to assist jobseekers and keep them close to the labour market . For example, the Youthreach programme provides 6,000 places to train people aged between 15 and 20.

During Ireland's successful Presidency of the European Union, the so-called youth guarantee was agreed stating that member states should ensure that all young people under the age of 25 receive a good quality offer of employment, continued education, an apprenticeship or a traineeship within four months of becoming unemployed or leaving formal education. The development of Ireland's plan is being led by the Department of Social Protection with the support of other relevant Departments, with input from the OECD. The Government has put in place a range of targeted responses for our unemployed young people, and we are determined to make improvements where necessary and these are under way.

Deputy John Lyons

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed response. I agree with him that the Government is doing a great deal to combat unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. The revised pathways to work strategy for 2013 contains 50 measures, two of the most significant of which focus on youth unemployment through the delivery of the youth guarantee nationally and the development of social clauses in capital spending contracts, which would entail giving jobs to people out of work. I am very much aware of the work being done by the Government to ensure opportunities are created for people to remain in the State but, according to the EMIGRE study, 47% of those who have emigrated left full-time employment. We must ask ourselves what are the other reasons people are leaving. More important, given we have strong statistics, are there ways the Government, perhaps through the CSO, which is our best arm for analysis data, which it does well, can improve data gathering to ensure we have the best picture of the people leaving the country?

Based on gathering the most evidence we can, we could best inform policy for the future. If we want Ireland to continue to grow, we will need to ensure opportunities are created for some emigrants to return. For example, a one-stop-shop website that Irish people could visit while abroad could be an innovative response. It could advertise jobs and so on. I do not wish to be prescriptive because I do not have all the answers. The emigrant study needs to be used to help inform future policy around how we deal with people who have left our shores and who wish to come home, given that more than 80% of emigrants said that if the economy improved, the likelihood of them deciding to come home would increase.

I thank the Minister of State for his time and I hope his Department will take this proposal on board, particularly in the context of the comprehensive EMIGRE study, which is based on qualitative and quantitative data research over the past year.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I appreciate the Deputy's comments on what the Government is doing to combat the scourge of youth unemployment. It is a problem and no Government will come up with a remedy overnight. However, we have introduced a number of stimulus packages in our budgets and I understand the Minister for Finance will include a stimulus package in budget 2014 to address the scourge of emigration and youth unemployment. We are winning the battle in this regard as we have concentrated on it. The Taoiseach will next year concentrate on jobs and job creation. We have to focus on this to prevent the high rate of emigration, particularly among young people.

The Deputy is correct that a significant number of young emigrants are leaving full-time jobs. Perhaps this is because of a desire for a better lifestyle or better weather but there is a range of reasons they are doing so. For example, two of my constituents emigrated to Australia in the past month. They both left full-time jobs in a pharmaceutical company and transferred to a sister company in Australia.

The CSO is always looking for ways to improve the way it gathers information. I represented the Government in Australia on St. Patrick's Day this year. It is a worthwhile exercise for all Ministers to go abroad and network with their counterparts in different parliaments and so on. I launched an Irish networking website in Perth. People can log in to find out about what is happening at home, job opportunities, stimulus packages and so on and also they are informed about what they need to do when they travel to Australia and about various helplines. This is an important site to make sure we look after our young people when they emigrate and to fill them in on what is happening back home as well. This will give them an opportunity to apply for jobs.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I compliment the CSO on the great work it does. As Minister for State with responsibility for the agency, I always encourage Ministers to use CSO data, which is readily available, as they develop Government policy.

Teacher Training Provision

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The criteria for entry to the professional diploma in mathematics for teachers, a course which is contracted to a number of universities to provide, excludes teachers who are not under contract. Many full qualified teachers are unable to find work due to the changes in the pupil-teacher ratio regime in recent years. They are highly qualified and skilled and ready to take up a job when it becomes available. The Department of Education and Skills will be well aware that the student cohort is increasing as a result of population growth and jobs will become available in the not too distant future even if the current pupil-teacher ratio is retained. It is unfair that teachers who are not in full-time employment are being refused entry to this course. It would be wise during a period of unemployment for teachers to use the opportunity to upskill and be in a position to take on a more enhanced role as soon as a position becomes available.

I can understand why places on the diploma course would be offered to those in full-time employment, thereby increasing the impact on the student population but, in the same way the Government has examined ways of providing various schemes, including JobBridge, for other unemployed individuals, it would be right to broaden access to this course by amending the criteria in order that highly qualified individuals with teaching skills in mathematics would be facilitated during the period they are unemployed and be in a position to take on a more enhanced role when jobs become available. This is not only about considering the concerns of teachers because it is important that as the demand for mathematics increases, we have the most highly skilled people available to take pupils to the next level. There has been a reversal in the move away from science subjects and mathematics again this year. That is important in the quest to produce skilled graduates for the economy enabling us to retain and assist large IT companies to maintain there bases here. They provide a significant return to the economy through the provision of jobs, the generation of taxes etc.

I appeal to the Minister to consider broadening the entry criteria for the professional diploma in mathematics for teachers, to get rid of the exclusion for those teachers who are not under contract and to provide the funding necessary, or whatever it takes, to include those who want to make a difference and want to utilise their time out of work to improve their skills. It is not only about them, because the phenomenal benefits that such skills improvement will have on the broader economy can assist in our economic recovery.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dinny McGinley)

I am speaking on behalf of the Minister for Education and Skills, who is unavoidably absent. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter, which is one in which I have a personal interest, having taught mathematics for some time in a former career.

As no doubt this House will be aware, the teaching and learning of mathematics, including the level of qualification of teachers of mathematics in Irish classrooms, has been subject to much scrutiny in recent years. For example, research from a number of sources has indicated that there is a cohort of post-primary teachers of mathematics who do not have mathematics to degree level.

The report of the Project Maths implementation support group was published in June 2010. This group was an industry-education partnership set up under the auspices of the Department of Education and Skills to advise on Project Maths. The group recommended that postgraduate courses be provided for current teachers of mathematics who do not hold an appropriate qualification. The professional diploma in mathematics for teaching is designed to address this recommendation. In 2012, following a tendering process, a consortium comprising the Centre for Excellence in Mathematics Education in the University of Limerick and the National University of Ireland, Galway, was awarded the contract to develop this programme.

The course is a part-time two-year university-accredited professional diploma at Level 8 on the National Framework of Qualifications. It is a blended learning programme based on local delivery for the face-to-face elements as well as online modules. It is available to teachers nationwide free of charge, with specific provision for teachers in Irish-medium schools, which, incidentally, I welcome. Funding of almost €3.3 million has been made available to date for this programme. The course began in September 2012 with 323 teachers, who are now about to embark on their second year of this programme of study. This September, 302 teachers commenced the course as the second intake.

As regards eligibility, an applicant must meet the following criteria: proof of registration with the Teaching Council; confirmation that the applicant is teaching in a recognised post-primary school; confirmation in writing from the principal of his or her school confirming that the teacher is currently teaching mathematics and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future; and a declaration that the applicant's existing qualifications are not sufficient to meet Teaching Council criteria for the purposes of teaching of mathematics at post-primary level. The criteria reflect the aim of the programme to improve the skills of those teachers who are currently in our classrooms teaching mathematics, but who are out of field.

All aspects of the programme are subject to regular review by a monitoring group comprising representatives of the Department of Education and Skills and the contractor. Policy in this important area will also be informed by the work of the inspectorate. In addition, Deputy Sherlock, Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, has visited the University of Limerick and met some of the teacher participants. He was struck by their dedication and enthusiasm for teaching mathematics. Participation in this demanding course reflects their professional attitude to professional development and improving practice and standards in their classrooms, and they are to be commended on this.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Minister of State for an overview of the programme. While I welcome his comments, unfortunately, they show no intent to review the criteria.

He identified the eligibility criteria that applicants must meet. However, I return to what I stated in my opening comments, that those teachers are out of field - in other words, out of employment. They are not under contract in the classroom because of the unavailability of work for them. They are qualified to teach mathematics but they do not have a full-time job, not by choice but because of the situation in which they find themselves.

I appeal to the Minister to review the criteria to give special consideration to those teachers who are not in contract, whose qualifications are not sufficient to meet the Teaching Council's criteria - that can be established - and who intend to teach mathematics as soon as a job becomes available, and put them in a position in which they will use the period of time in which they are out of work to improve their skills. This would, in the first instance, improve their chances of getting a job but, more importantly, would put them in a position of being able to teach mathematics at an advanced level to the cohort of students that is coming through the schools. This would improve the capability of the education system, with a consequent positive impact on economic activity and our ability to attract the kind of foreign investment that is dependent on the skill sets of graduates, and ensure that we are ready to meet the changing and dynamic nature of the demands of that foreign investment.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

The fact that the current cohort of more than 600 teachers is participating in the course reflects the commitment of current post-primary teachers of mathematics to upgrade their skills to recognised levels. The fact that the Government has allocated €3.3 million towards the scheme is an indication of its commitment to the teaching of mathematics and the upgrading of standards, if I can put it that way.

In view of the financial difficulties in which we find ourselves, and while it is worthy that those who are not yet teaching should have the opportunity, priority should be given to teachers who are already in the field - in the classroom - and that is where our priorities lie. It does not negate the Deputy's view that others want to do it, but as a former teacher my opinion is that priority, in view of the shortcomings we have, must be given to those who are already in the classrooms. I and the Minister welcome the fact that more than 600 people have agreed to participate in this upgrading of their skills, but what the Deputy has said will be borne in mind.

Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Board

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Ryan report shocked the nation. At the time of the setting up of the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund in May 2012, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, said it was right that the State apologise to those whose childhoods were stolen and who, in many instances, could not live full lives as adults and citizens. He talked about the State's failure of the children who were victims of institutional abuse, stated that their childhoods had been stolen and spoke of the pain and abuse they had suffered, and promised that the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund would be available to help them rebuild their lives, particularly in the areas of counselling, health, personal social services and educational services.

During the summer I was contacted by a constituent who has asked me to say she is happy for her name to be mentioned in the House. Her name is Eithne Doyle; she is in her 60s and from Dún Laoghaire. She spent six or seven years in a Magdalen institution and described her treatment there as appalling. She was young. She suffered from dyslexia, yet she was ridiculed as a dunce, as being no good. She was never given support or nurtured. She described how her confidence as a human being was crushed and her self-esteem stolen from her. She eventually left school at the age of 14 years after the trauma she had suffered there. She went to Britain at the age of 19. Things did not go well for her in England, although she had two children there. She returned with them to Ireland in 1988. She was homeless for 13 months, living in bed and breakfast accommodation and hostels. She was forced to walk the streets with her children for ten or 12 hours a day because they were thrown out of the hostel. During that period her daughter, Yasmin, was unwell and she did not know what was wrong with her. When she was finally housed, her daughter died nine months later of a brain tumour. She thought she was unwell because of their living conditions and could not properly identify how unwell she was because they were homeless. This is a person who has suffered terribly and she puts it all down to her period in the residential institution.

After all these tragic circumstances, Eithne has since tried to rebuild her life, re-educate herself and regain the confidence and self-esteem that was stolen from her. She was delighted when the residential redress board was set up and she was awarded compensation. She was particularly delighted at the commitment which was reiterated by the Minister, Deputy Quinn, last year, that support for education would be provided. She has returned to education and attended courses in social studies. This year she began a further education course in Sallynoggin on social advocacy. She contacted the statutory residential institutions board believing she would be entitled to financial support from it only to discover that no applications were being taken. She is furious, upset and angry that after everything that has happened to her, after the State's acknowledgement of its complicity in her treatment and the promises of support to help her to rebuild her life, that support is not available when she needs it to re-educate herself, rebuild her life and I hope find employment. I suspect Eithne's tragic situation and life is repeated in many other instances. She wants to know whether that fund will be opened and whether applications will be accepted. She wants to know if that support will be provided for her and people like her in order that she can begin to rebuild her life as the Government promised she would be able to do.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. He will appreciate that I am not in a position to comment on a specific case, but I will outline the general position on behalf of the Minister who is unavoidably absent.

The Education Finance Board was financed by the specific €12.7 million contribution provided by the religious congregations under the 2002 indemnity agreement. It was dissolved with effect from 29 March 2013. The newly established Residential Institutions Statutory Fund has taken over its remaining functions and will use the less than €30,000 remaining to meet the outstanding commitments of the EFB. Eligibility under the EFB was confined to former residents and their relatives of those institutions that were scheduled under the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002.

The Magdalen laundries did not come within the scope of the redress scheme. However, provision was made to entitle those girls who were sent from a scheduled institution to a laundry and who were abused while resident in it. Therefore, only those Magdalen survivors who were also residents of scheduled institutions under the redress scheme could apply for assistance from the EFB. While the numbers of such women are not known, the McAleese report found that 7.8% of the known routes of entry were referrals from the industrial and reformatory schools.

The Residential Institutions Statutory Fund has been established to oversee the use of the cash contributions of up to €110 million pledged by the religious congregations to support the needs of survivors of institutional child abuse. Supports in areas such as mental health services, health and personal social services, education and housing services will be available from the board. Since its establishment in March, the board has been working on the arrangements to be put in place for the operation of the fund, with a particular focus on developing its understanding of the range of needs of survivors through consultation both in Ireland and the United Kingdom with survivor groups and individual survivors. In addition, the practical arrangements for recruiting staff and establishing an office are being progressed.

The Residential Institutions Statutory Fund has to determine and publish the approved services under section 8 of the Act and the criteria by reference to which it will make decisions on applications. Conscious of the needs of the former residents, many of whom are elderly and infirm, the Minister for Education and Skills is anxious that the fund will be operational as quickly as possible. However, the Deputy will appreciate that the fund must determine its services and criteria at the outset.

Those eligible to apply to the new fund are the estimated 15,000 former residents who have received awards from the Residential Institutions Redress Board or equivalent court awards and settlements. Only those Magdalen survivors who also received awards under the redress scheme or equivalent court awards will be eligible.

On the question of the Magdalen survivors generally, the Government has approved the implementation of a cash lump sum payment scheme as recommended by Mr. Justice Quirke. An interdepartmental group was tasked with giving further detailed consideration to the steps necessary to implement the other recommendations. I understand the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, expects to receive the group's report shortly and will then bring the matter back before the Government for final decision.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I may have caused some confusion in my contribution. The institution in this case had a Magdalen laundry run by sisters, but the person to whom I refer was in one of the residential institutions. The Magdalen scheme is separate.

On the substantive point, having passed a Bill in July 2012 in which the State acknowledged its obligation to the victims of institutional abuse and the need to provide services for them such as education, health, counselling and so on and the board having been set up in March this year, after all that time we are still talking about staffing and administrative problems and there is, in fact, no scheme for the victims. The Minister himself described it as one of the darkest, most shameful chapters in the history of the State. He has acknowledged that many of the people involved are elderly. If the scheme is to mean anything, they need support now. I have described one person's situation, but I suspect there are many more. A total of 15,000 may be eligible for the scheme and after all this time and given the tragic circumstances of their lives, we are still talking about administrative problems. They want the scheme to be opened. The Minister should be here to tell the House when it will be open for applications. What Eithne and others in the same position would like is a commitment that when it is opened, any support they need will be backdated to when they first sought it. Eithne is now starting her course. She is dependent on social welfare payments and has a daughter to support. As she suffers from dyslexia, she needs a computer and other things to help her to proceed with this course. She does not have them because she does not have the support that she was promised by the Government and the State. I ask the Minister of State to give a specific timeline for when applications will be accepted and indicate whether they will be backdated to provide support for these survivors of abuse and to whom the State has acknowledged it has an obligation.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I am sure the Deputy will acknowledge, as the House and some of those who were victims of abuse in the laundries did, the commitment of the Government to redress what has happened. I have been in this House for well over 30 years and it was an historic occasion for me to hear the Taoiseach of the country stand up just beside where I am now and apologise to those people, many of whom were in the Visitors Gallery with other representatives. After many years of the issue being postponed and put on the long finger, this Government came forward and owned up to what was done, providing redress to the people who were unfortunately abused.

The institutions are being established and funding is being made available. The Minister for Education and Skills is anxious that the residential institutions statutory fund be put into operation at the earliest opportunity, and to date contributions of €71 million have been lodged in a special investment account in the National Treasury Management Agency. The Minister is continuing to pursue the realisation of the remaining cash contribution pledge by the religious congregations, so every effort is being made in this regard. Although it took a long time, elements are being put in place correctly and criteria must be established. We are working on this matter continuously and I assure the Deputy and House that there will be no undue delay in implementation. The commitment has been given to this House, the country as a whole and to the victims by the Taoiseach.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will the Government provide a date?

Local Authority Staff Issues

Deputy Eric Byrne

I thank the Minister for his presence. What we seek is contained in the matter submitted for debate, which is "the need for an ongoing engagement between local development company workers and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to address issues and concerns raised by the proposed alignment of local government". That is very straightforward and all I seek from the Minister is a commitment that the coalface workers at community development level will be incorporated into the debate as equal participants to those who are currently debating the future alignment.

This is a very important sector. For example, approximately 7,500 people are engaged in the Tús programme, and the Leader and local development programmes have 2,600 people. In other words, approximately 10,000 people are engaged in the sector. The people who work alongside these people - who conceive, prepare and supervise the programmes - are not party to the debate on alignment. We know the local area partnership boards have managers who are aligned to the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, group, and they have representation, which is only correct. I seek a commitment that the socioeconomic committees, for example, will have an implementation group incorporating the voice and influence of workers who feel rather vulnerable because of a move away from the past and local development boards being subsumed by local area boards. Local authorities will subsume those bodies again.

The workers are feeling rather vulnerable because they do not know what the future holds, so will the Minister guarantee that the worker's voice will be given equal status in the implementation group?

Deputy Joan Collins

Following from Deputy Byrne's comments, the alignment process is a different scenario, and we are not really here to debate the merits or otherwise of that. We are demanding that the workers' voices be heard because they have continuously tried to contact the Minister: union members met representatives of the Department on 24 September to try to get meaningful negotiations rather than just being told what is to happen.

The uncertainty for these workers created by the process has made it difficult for them. In some local authorities, there has already been movement on the alignment process, with workers in local development companies asked to work with the local authorities to map work; they are refusing to work with the local authorities. I support such action as these people need to know what the future holds. These people have worked for up to 20 years in this area, which is at the coal face of communities. They deal on a daily basis with the matters affecting communities in the likes of Crumlin, Bluebell and the canal area. They know what is happening and they should be involved in negotiations on what the future holds for the alignment process.

How would the Minister feel if the Taoiseach was to create a new Department that could include parts of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government but that excluded the Minister?

Deputy Phil Hogan

He probably does that on a regular basis.

Deputy Joan Collins

We know the Minister is not legally obliged to speak to workers but he should do so. There are 50 local development companies and there is much work in the area. As a broad church of Deputies, we appeal to the Minister, and I know many of the Minister's party members have signed the petition for the Minister to respect the workers.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank Deputies Byrne and Collins for raising the matter and allowing me to clarify some of the issues. Last October, the Government approved a new programme for effective local government entitled Putting People First, which included recommendations by an expert alignment steering group for enhancing alignment between local government and local communities. The steering group made a number of recommendations aimed at improving co-ordination across the range of local publicly-funded programmes, achieving greater efficiency and effectiveness in the delivery of those programmes and, most importantly, improving the delivery of services to the people we all represent, the citizens and communities. I established a working group to assist and advise my Department on the implementation of the recommendations, and this working group comprises representatives of the City and County Managers Association, the Irish Local Development Network and Pobal. It is supported in its work by my Department.

As well as the ongoing work of this group, both I and my Department have had engagements with representatives of the local development and community and voluntary sectors regarding alignment and other issues of common interest. I am glad Deputy Collins acknowledged that my officials met representatives of the worker trade unions recently to discuss a number of issues at my request. I will not meet representatives of every local community group around the country as I have representatives to do so. I know the Deputy is not advocating that. The Irish Local Development Network is the representative body for the 50 local development companies throughout the country and has three places on the working group. It is the responsibility of these representatives to consult with their nominating body, the staff in the local development companies and other relevant stakeholders, as necessary, as part of this process.

I remind the Deputies that the local development companies are private independent companies with their own boards of management. I am trying to change this to ensure the local development companies and the workers can be in a better position to deliver those services in future; this is in the face of declining public funds and support through European Union programmes. My Department has no role in the internal operations of the companies and, accordingly, does not have a role in staff or employment matters. These issues are primarily a matter for the board of each company, as the employer, to manage.

The strengths of the local development companies in service planning and delivery were recognised in the final report of the alignment steering group and it is envisaged that they will have a continuing role in this regard. We will get better outcomes and value for money by better collaboration, which is why I am establishing local community development committees in each local authority area. These committees will provide a broader-based collaboration than we have had to date, and it is not good enough for people to operate in isolation, either in local government or in the community. We want to bring these people together to achieve greater benefit for the people we are trying to serve, the citizens.

My vision is for a more integrated approach to local development, with local development bodies operating in a complementary and collaborative approach with a reformed local government system. These new arrangements will place local development structures on a more sustainable footing, eliminate unnecessary duplication and achieve better value for money. In the context of the tightening budgetary position, it is particularly important that we operate as efficiently as possible to ensure the continued delivery of quality front-line services to the community.

An alignment will not drive cuts to programme funding; rather, it will help sustain local community development services through more efficient, effective and joined-up structures. It will give local authorities, as the democratically elected level of government closest to the people, a greater role in the planning, oversight and governance of local development funding.

I will ensure the community and voluntary sector and the people the Deputies referred to will have full engagement in the process once we have completed the round with the working group. This will take place very shortly. The working group will come to its conclusions in the next two or three weeks and then I can report back to the Deputies on the next stage of the process, to assure workers we will continue to have a very strong community and local government partnership approach to the delivery of services to the people.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I welcome the contribution of the Minister. However, he has not satisfied me as to our demands. They are not really private-----

Deputy Phil Hogan

They are private.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Perhaps, in law, they are but they are basically community-led projects. The worry I have is that the Minister is deferring to the companies and has given the ILDN the negotiation rights on behalf of the workers of the partnerships. Let us call spade a spade. On the ground, at the coalface of poverty, alienation and hardship, people at community level know how to tap into this and to provide the programmes to assist people in development. If they are excluded, it becomes a bureaucratic structure. I must ask if the Minister believes in social partnership. The trade union movement and SIPTU are part of the social partnership structure. Why would the Minister want to exclude the union representing the body of men and women of the community and voluntary sector in the structures?

Deputy Joan Collins

Exactly. Why would the Minister want to exclude a union representing the workers at the coalface? From talking to workers on the ground, I know managers do not have a hand-to-hand approach in the communities. They see them once or twice a year when they call in to see how operations are working. The union representation, SIPTU, should not be locked out of these negotiations. It is not good enough for the Minister to refer to the situation in three weeks time, when much negotiation has already been done and the workers have not been involved in it. Already, local authorities are going to the community development workers and saying that they must work hand-in-hand with local authorities to map out the work they do. That should not be done before the workers have an opportunity to be part of negotiations rather than being told what is happening. The Minister should support the workers and I expect him, as Minister, to do so.

Deputy Phil Hogan

To clarify, the working group is not about union negotiations between workers and a private company employer. The working group is about the structures that will be put in place to deliver for the people and the communities. That is what I am interested in. What is the best way of ensuring we have robust structures to deliver best for the people? The union negotiations with workers in these community companies involve private companies. My officials met SIPTU recently about this and brought it up to date on these matters. In a couple of weeks time, we will know the structures and we will have further discussions with unions. I am surprised that Deputy Joan Collins, who has strong views about public versus private companies, is not supporting me on this occasion in respect of these private companies. I want public companies accountable to the democratically elected people in local government and to work together to deliver for the people she wants to represent.