Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Oct 2013

Vol. 816 No. 1

Priority Questions

Pupil-Teacher Ratio

Charlie McConalogue

Question:

57. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will ensure that there will be no increase in class sizes or the pupil-teacher ratio in budget 2014; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42410/13]

Jonathan O'Brien

Question:

61. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he has carried out an impact analysis on increasing the pupil-teacher ratio in primary and post-primary schools. [42471/13]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 57 and 61 together.

The context for any discussion about pupil-teacher ratios or class sizes is that my Department, like all other Departments, is operating within a budgetary programme that is designed to return the Government finances to a sustainable basis. My focus is on ensuring we have school places and teachers for the thousands of additional pupils entering our schools each year. I will consider all of these matters with my Cabinet colleagues in the context of next week's budget. The Government will endeavour to protect front-line education services as far as possible. This must be done within the context of bringing our overall public expenditure into line with what we can afford as a country.

I thank the Minister for his response. Given that the budget is taking place next week, I was hoping for something more reassuring from the Minister, such as an understanding of the pressures teachers are facing in schools as a result of the current pupil-teacher ratios. Media articles in recent weeks have given rise to speculation that there may be an increase in those ratios. The Minister has indicated on several occasions that he might have to consider such an increase. He has refused to rule it out on the floor of the Dáil on a couple of occasions. I am disappointed that the response he has given today is not stronger. I understand that all will be revealed in next week's budget. The Minister has indicated before now that up to €100 million could be taken out of the education budget. Fianna Fáil's position is very clear - education spending and services should be protected. While I appreciate that it is difficult to find savings elsewhere, that is what the Government should try to do. Up to 30% of students are in classrooms of over 30 pupils. I urge the Minister to elaborate in his response on how pupil-teacher ratios might be protected in next week's budget.

I do not know whether the Government will increase the pupil-teacher ratio next week. The Minister probably knows by now whether that will happen. If a decision is made to go down that road, can we get an assurance that some sort of impact analysis has been done on the effect an increase will have on schools?

We already have 23% of pupils being taught in classrooms of more than 30 pupils. I have all the figures. In my area of County Cork, we have one class of 41 pupils while in Monaghan there is another with more than 40. If we are looking to increase the pupil-teacher ratio, we must first recognise that there is a difference between pupil-teacher ratio and class sizes. Has the Department analysed what effect any proposed increase would have? If so, will the Minister confirm what has been done?

I would like to tell the Deputies more information if I could be sure what I told them would be what happens on budget day, but I cannot be sure about that until final figures are agreed on the overall macroeconomic framework, a matter that was discussed at Cabinet today. Each Department is focused on what it wants to do or avoid in the spheres of education, justice or wherever. Other Departments may have difficulties which may not be confined just to their own Department. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Public Reform, Deputy Howlin may have to come back and look at all the Departments. Although I am aware of the broad I stress that there are seven days until next week and, as Harold Wilson once said, "A week is a long time in politics".

I am conscious of the impact of large classes. There are disputes about what the full impact is, but the DEIS schools would not in any way be affected by PTR changes for reasons that the Deputy might share, and we are looking at the other schools. It is more difficult to teach a larger class. We could start looking at the reasons why some classes are so exceptionally large, but the PTR has not been changed since this Government came into office.

The class sizes have increased.

We should be looking at why that is happening.

I ask Members to move telephones or iPads away from the microphones because something is interfering with the sound.

It is clear from the figures released, particularly in larger growing urban areas where the PTR and the allocation of teachers lags a year behind, that there are severe issues. We need to give more attention to that separate matter because it is creating pressures. As the Minister for State will know, a series of meetings have been held across the country over the past two to four weeks in which teachers and parents have come together to emphasise the pressures in schools and the difficulties that the pupil-teacher ratio is causing. Although the Minister of State is not in a position to indicate what might happen next week and I know that negotiations are ongoing, I urge him to do everything in his power to ensure that education is ring fenced in the upcoming budget because the primary school system in particular cannot take any more pressure than it is already under.

I fully recognise that PTR has not changed, but class sizes are on the increase, which I am sure the Minister recognises. When he took up office, the average class size was 24.3 pupils, but the latest figures show that it is now 24.7 pupils. I take from his response that whatever decision is made next week will not affect DEIS schools.

I am not looking for an answer on whether the Minister plans to increase PTR. I want to know whether any analysis has been done on the impact any proposed increases may have. Whether that is done for this or the next budget, we must have that analysis because without it we will continually be forced to make decisions based on budgetary decisions while not having the information on how that will impact longer term and whether it will put more pressure on finances. Until we move to a budget-proofing process, that system will continue.

I thank both Deputies for expressing their concerns, which is helpful. We may need to look at areas where population is rising quickly and where there are demographic issues. We know how many two and three year olds there are and we need to consider whether our response to and intervention on the schools with realisable population increases should be quicker than is currently the case. We must look at that because there is a big miss-match if there are classrooms with 41 pupils in them.

I know they are the exception but there are too many exceptions in one sense. I am open to looking at that in the context of next year's budget.

Has the Minister carried out any analysis examining the effect of any proposed increases?

Yes, we analyse all the decisions that are contemplated on the menu. We have a bit more experience in respect of understanding the potential impacts.

Bullying in Schools

Jonathan O'Brien

Question:

58. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills the reasons circular 045/2013 has not been placed on a statutory footing. [42470/13]

Under the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, all schools must have a code of behaviour which has been drawn up in accordance with guidelines issued by the National Education Welfare Board, NEWB. These NEWB guidelines specifically require all schools to have an anti-bullying policy within the framework of their overall code of behaviour. The recently published anti-bullying procedures are underpinned by this legal framework and I do not believe further legislation is necessary.

Under the previous system, there was a very ad hoc approach to how schools were implementing those guidelines. Some schools had very good anti-bullying policies in place while others were not so good. The new circular sets out procedures to give direction and guidance to school authorities and personnel in preventing and tackling school-based bullying behaviour. I also note that we looked at the definition. In respect of the definition and how schools will implement the circular, I think the Minister has allocated €40,000 for training purposes for boards of management. When one breaks that down in terms of the number of schools and boards of management, we are looking at 72 courses. Is the Minister satisfied this will be enough to implement the circular? One of the things he asked for was for parents to become more involved in the development of the policy. Parents who sit on boards of management may not have expertise in developing that type of policy so they need that type of training. After the allocation of the figure of €40,000, are we looking at extending it and putting in place more training programmes? Will it be a continuous assessment with regard to how the policy is being developed and the review mechanisms put in place?

I looked at the templates, which are very good, but one of the options in a template allows schools to leave out some of the template produced by the Minister. I do not know if this is the right way to go because much of the information in the existing template is the type of information that needs to be recorded, and leaving out sections of the template should not be an option.

The overall budgetary allocation, which is quite modest, is €500,000 for the implementation of the strategy. Deputy O'Brien is correct in saying that €70,000 was identified for a specific training programme for parents, to be administered by the National Parents Council. We will see how that unfolds. The previous set of guidelines was signed off on in 1993. These have been the product of a lot of good engagement and I welcome Deputy O'Brien's support, as well as the support of Fianna Fáil, over recent months in respect of that.

My view is that we should see how this is working and whether parents are being properly empowered vis-à-vis schools to be able to react in a coherent way if there are incidences of bullying in whatever shape or form. More resources can be made available. Before we start moving to a statutory basis, which implies that there will be penalties, obligations and legal requirements of some description, I would prefer to have them operate on a non-statutory basis until we learn from them. If such a basis is required in the future, I am open to considering, it but I would need to be persuaded by the evidence and we do not have that yet.

What would be the consequences for schools which do not implement the circular, be it because they do not have the expertise to develop a comprehensive anti-bullying policy or they do not have the resources to meet the targets in terms of the end of the academic year? What is the follow-up in terms of working with those schools which may not have that expertise?

If a school does not implement the strategy and guidelines and this decision is wilful, in that the school either does not agree with the strategy and guidelines or is not going to implement them, rather than the result of the school having difficulties finding the resources, that must provoke some kind of consequence. If it is because the school or board of management need assistance or guidance, we are open to looking at that, but we will not go back to the past.

We will not tolerate bullying, whether cyberbullying, identity bullying or any other kind of bullying. We have gone beyond that and that is the clear reaction from the public. I do not anticipate that any school will not want to implement the guidelines, but we have 4,000 schools and if, for whatever reason, we get evidence that a school is willfully disengaging, we cannot ignore it.

School Staffing

Tom Fleming

Question:

59. Deputy Tom Fleming asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will review the current guidance counselling provision in post-primary schools given that a recent research survey and audit established that vulnerable and disadvantaged students are the most hurt by cuts in this service. [42531/13]

I have already acknowledged to the House that bringing guidance within quota is challenging for schools. The alternative, however, was to adjust the pupil-teacher ratio staffing allocations. Guidance is a whole-school activity, and schools have autonomy on how best to prioritise their available resources to meet the requirements in relation to guidance and the provision of an appropriate range of subjects to students. This operates at local school level. The representative organisations for school principals and school management developed a framework that assists schools on how best to manage the provision of guidance from within their staffing allocations. This approach puts a greater emphasis on group work and class-based activity at senior cycle and maximises the amount of time available for those pupils who need one-to-one support. The budget decision sheltered the impact for all DEIS post-primary schools by improving their standard staffing allocations, a fact which is often overlooked in this debate.

In September 2012 and again in September 2013, the Institute of Guidance Counsellors initiated research and conducted a national audit into current practice in guidance and counselling. The institute feared that, while all students would be affected by the changes, disadvantaged and vulnerable students would suffer the most. The audit revealed a worrying trend in our schools whereby many young people cannot access guidance counsellors when they most need their assistance. There has been an alarming reduction of 51.4% in the time made available for one-to-one counselling. The Minister referred to group counselling, but in the context of the current economic situation and the various social problems that arise, it is imperative that one-to-one counselling is emphasised. The audit also highlighted an overall reduction of 21.4% in the service, with significant variations among types of schools, and an increase in the teaching of academic subjects on the part of guidance counsellors. We clearly have a disjointed service.

The Deputy might put a question to the Minister and conclude on it.

Will the Minister address the concerns that have been expressed about guidance counselling? Many parents cannot afford private counselling services. The Minister will have to acknowledge the significant implications for our vulnerable students.

Guidance counsellors play an important role in schools. All that was done was to give leadership at secondary level the discretion to deploy the full array of time that the guidance teacher had in the school. It was a choice between doing that or increasing the pupil-teacher ratio. That was not a great choice to begin with, but I believe I took the better option. We are discussing guidance counsellors, but I think we are more concerned about the pastoral care and advice they give to young people. In the context of yesterday's funeral in Limerick after another tragedy, we must be acutely aware of the problems that arise in our schools. Last January, the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I published guidelines on mental health promotion and suicide prevention.

The guidelines were informed by consultation with key education and health partners and by the findings of current research. They provide practical guidance to post-primary schools on how they can promote mental health and well being in an integrated fashion. This is the point - it is not just one teacher's responsibility. Rather, it is a pastoral care issue for the entire school community. The guidelines go into some length and provide a great deal of comfort for that community in dealing with this problem, which has sadly become very real.

While all students are negatively impacted by these cutbacks, there are more vulnerable students. The Minister mentioned the Limerick incident. I would also point to children with special needs, non-English-speaking non-nationals, the Travelling community, etc. Cyberbullying is another issue. Some students are in the criminal justice system. Socio-economically disadvantaged students are disproportionately impacted because substitute services are not available.

The survey highlighted another matter. In addition to losing classroom subject teachers, many schools have also lost specialist teachers, for example, resource teachers and home-school liaison teachers. Some 40% of schools have lost learning support resource teaching hours and 37% have lost English language support hours.

The Deputy might put a question to the Minister, please.

Will the Minister review this situation, given the social implications and the well being of our young generation, particularly in these testing times?

This tragedy that confronts us all is not just a guidance counsellors issue, although they are central to its resolution in many respects. It is a community issue, including within the school itself. As the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, stated when we launched the document, if a person is in trouble or feels the need to access help, he or she should feel free in the first instance to approach a member of staff and the school staff community should empower itself so that, if a young person approaches whoever it happens to be seeking help, then that person should be able to refer him or her to the guidance counsellor in the first instance. If the counsellor is of the view that the issue is beyond his or her professional competence, the young person should be referred to the relevant health authorities in the HSE. This framework did not exist previously. It is the product of a good working group. School communities should be reinforced by the collective "we are all in this together" view, not take the view that bullying and pastoral care are uniquely the responsibility of one or two guidance counsellors.

Special Educational Needs Services Provision

Charlie McConalogue

Question:

60. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he is satisfied that the resource teaching hours for special needs students in 2013-14 will be adequate to meet demand; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42411/13]

In June, I authorised the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to maintain the level of resource teaching allocations to be provided for students with special educational needs at 2012-13 levels. There has not been a reduction in resource teaching time for these pupils for the current school year.

The NCSE has advised me that the number of additional posts required to meet the requirement for the remainder of this year is just under 500. I am committed to making available the additional resources required to provide for these allocations so that the needs of qualifying children are met. The implications of this for my Department's employment control framework and Vote have been raised with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and will also be addressed in the forthcoming process in formulating budget 2014.

I am not in a position at this time to anticipate future budgetary decisions. All of these issues will need to be considered as part of the normal budgetary and Estimates process for 2014 and beyond.

I thank the Minister for his response. Earlier this year, the approach to resource teaching hours was a matter of serious concern, as each child who had been in receipt of hours last year was to experience a reduction from 0.9 of an allocation to 0.85. The Minister's reversal of this decision was welcome. In doing so, he allocated additional teachers by bringing forward those who had been held back to meet the autumn demand that would arise from a new in-take of students and new diagnoses of needs.

I welcome the Minister's indication that he will ensure the need is met this autumn. Can the Minister give a figure on how many students are involved? How many new applications were made before the end of September for resource teaching hours? When will they get that allocation? Are they being allocated the additional required hours now or are they waiting for the Minister to allocate extra money to provide for that?

On 25 June, I announced that I would authorise the NCSE to make allocations at the same level for 2013 as before, which is 0.85. Consequently, there has not been a reduction in resource teaching time for pupils with special educational needs over last year's allocation.

The NCSE published details of all its initial allocations for resource teaching and SNA support for the 2013-14 school year in June this year. The data are now available on the NCSE's website detailing allocations made for each school on a per county basis.

The NCSE allocated 5,284 whole-time equivalent resource teaching posts to schools in June. In order to meet any late demand for resource teaching support arising from 15 March 2013 and the start of the school year, the NCSE requested all schools to submit outstanding applications for resource teaching support to the council by 20 September this year. The NCSE is currently processing these applications. The NCSE has estimated that some 480 additional resource teaching posts are likely to be required to meet the demand in respect of valid applications received up to 20 September 2013. That is the figure specifically sought by the Deputy.

The previous closing date was 20 March, while 20 September was the closing date for demand that has arisen in the meantime. The NCSE has told the Minister that just under 500 teachers will be required to meet that demand. Those children currently have a need for resource teaching support which has been applied for. They have been identified as having that need. Are those teachers currently being allocated to those students, must they await an additional budgetary allocation from the Minister, or must the Minister give the go-ahead for the recruitment and employment of teachers to meet that need?

I do not wish to mislead the House, but I am not entirely sure that I have all the information in my brief for the Deputy. I will provide an explicit written response for the Deputy concerning the questions he has just asked, and I will copy it to Deputy O'Brien as well.

Go raibh maith agat.

Top
Share