Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Oct 2013

Vol. 816 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

More than two weeks ago, I again raised with the Taoiseach the policy of consistent withdrawal of discretionary medical cards from adults and children with chronic and lifelong conditions. The Taoiseach denied this policy was in place and stated the opposite was the case. This week, my party tabled a Private Members' motion specifically on the policy of cutting back and withdrawing discretionary medical cards. Since 2011, the number of such medical cards in the system has declined from more than 80,000 to 54,000. With more than 1,000 discretionary medical cards being withdrawn per month, the number of these cards will have declined to 50,000 by the end of the year if the Government's policy continues.

Last evening, Deputies raised various cases. I received a letter at the weekend outlining the case of an eight year old child with Down's syndrome, chronic asthma, two severe skin conditions, sight difficulties and bilateral hearing loss who also needs a wide range of therapies, orthotics and so forth. This gives rise to extraordinary costs, including a significant number of medical prescriptions and, at a minimum, 15 general practitioner visits each year. The young child's discretionary medical card has been withdrawn, despite the fact that the family's means have reduced since the card was first issued in 2005. The only reason I raise this case among many others is to illustrate that there has been a consistent policy of withdrawing discretionary medical cards from people who are chronically ill.

Last evening, Deputy Kelleher raised a case involving a young child of six years with highly complex medical issues, including hospital stays and so forth, whose medical card was, incredibly, withdrawn. People do not understand how the Taoiseach and Ministers can state in the House that this is not happening. Will the Taoiseach change heart and stop this policy?

The Taoiseach

The position is that when this Government was elected discretionary medical card applications were not routinely assessed by medical personnel. On the instructions of the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, a clinical panel was established to assess the processing of applications for discretionary medical cards. This allows medical professionals to have an input into granting a medical card to persons who exceed the income guidelines but face particular personal circumstances, such as an illness of one sort or another. Discretionary medical cards are awarded to people who are unable, without undue hardship, to arrange general practitioner services for themselves and their families. The number of these cards has fallen by more than 22,000 because this number of discretionary medical card holders now qualify for an ordinary medical card on the basis that they meet the income eligibility criteria. That is a fact.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

It is not a fact.

The Taoiseach

Some 22,000 people who had discretionary medical cards now qualify for ordinary medical cards as they meet the income guidelines.

Deputy John Halligan

That is not true.

The Taoiseach

Since 2011, some 22,584 individuals who were previously recorded on the medical card register as having been eligible for a discretionary medical card are now registered as medical card holders in their own right as they meet the eligibility criteria.

The Health Service Executive can only award medical cards in accordance with the Health Act, which requires that applicants be assessed. This is the subject of the discussion on a motion tabled by Deputy Martin's party in Private Members' time. There has been no change in the manner in which discretionary medical cards are awarded.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is unbelievable. The Taoiseach should consider what he has just said.

The Taoiseach

There is no target set in the Health Service Executive national plan to reduce the number of discretionary medical cards. I have provided the figure on the number of holders of discretionary medical cards who now have full ordinary medical cards.

The HSE produced a national assessment guideline to give a clear framework for assessing eligibility for discretionary medical cards for persons who have a particular illness or hardship because of their circumstances. These guidelines facilitate the application of discretion by decision makers in responding to the individual needs of particular applications for discretionary medical cards. The Health Act of 1970 provides that persons who are unable, without undue hardship, to arrange general practitioner services for themselves and their family qualify for a medical card.

I do not accept Deputy Martin's assertion that there has been a change in the way in which discretionary medical cards are granted. In fact, as I have pointed out, 22,584 people no longer have these cards because they now have full medical cards, having qualified in the ordinary way.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I beg the Taoiseach to listen for once to what is being said by Deputies in this Chamber and members of the public outside it. His answer is incredible and does not tally with reality.

As I stated, I received a letter at the weekend from a woman who wrote to the Taoiseach on 23 September. I will not name the person who wrote it but if the Taoiseach reads it, he will see that what I have said is the truth. He should ask Deputies where the issue of discretionary medical cards rates as a percentage of the cases they receive. This is, by any yardstick, the most common issue raised with every Deputy.

The Government continues to argue that the practice I described is not happening. The Taoiseach should read the letter dated 23 September and instruct the authorities to stop using the term "undue hardship". The woman who wrote the letter states she received a letter from the authorities indicating the withdrawal of the discretionary medical card would not cause her family "any undue hardship". "I beg to differ", she writes. Her family is now being assessed on this basis rather than on need, which was the basis on which her child was originally granted a discretionary medical card.

I have a list of similar cases, including one involving a 12 year old with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome whose appeal against a decision to refuse a medical card has been ongoing since July. In another case, a 50 year old woman with multiple sclerosis has just lodged an appeal against a decision not to renew a discretionary medical card.

Another person with multiple sclerosis, who is 39 years old, was refused and has appealed. I earlier mentioned the child with complex medical disorders. A 70 year old with very complex ongoing medical issues had a card for ten years and that person also has huge difficulties.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A 69 year old with a very complex life-threatening condition as per a doctor's letter to the authorities had their card revoked having had one since 2005. A 67 year old in end-stage renal failure lost the card following a review. Another woman aged 48 lost the card in a review. Again, it was a very complex case.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Last evening in the House many other cases were itemised. The bottom line is that this is happening and is real. It is not good enough to come in here and deny the reality experienced by many people throughout the country. I appeal to the Taoiseach to listen to what is going on and stop this disconnect between what is said in here and the reality as experienced by people throughout the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is a fundamental need to change what is going on. People with serious conditions are being denied medical cards.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach claims they are all getting medical cards. Why are we having so many appeals? The only reason is that cards are being taken from people. It is not that thousands-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----are getting the cards in lieu of the discretionary card. The discretionary medical card is being taken from them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

We need a change of policy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I ask the Taoiseach to-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Deputy Micheál Martin

----- acknowledge what is going on and bring about that change.

The Taoiseach

I have listened to the Deputy. There has been no change in the method-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Even the Labour Party does not believe that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on Leaders' Questions, please.

The Taoiseach

There has been no change in the allocation of discretionary medical cards. I am not saying that every case gets a medical card. I am saying that 22,584 people, who had discretionary medical cards, have moved from discretionary medical cards to full medical cards. That is a fact.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Why are there so many appeals? Why are we inundated with appeals?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to reply, please.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

He is taking cover.

The Taoiseach

May I proceed? Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The number of individuals who had eligibility to a medical card or a GP visit card on a discretionary basis on 1 January in 2009 was 93,000 and 78,000 in 2013. As I said, 22,584 have moved on to full medical cards. In cases of emergency situations, the HSE has a system in place for the provision of emergency medical cards for patients who are seriously ill and in urgent need of medical care they cannot afford. I think that is clear. The HSE issues emergency cards to such people within 24 hours of receipt of the required patient details and a letter of confirmation of their condition from a doctor or medical consultant. I think that is pretty clear. With the exception of terminally ill patients, the HSE issues all emergency cards on the basis that the patient is eligible for a medical card because of his or her circumstances and the application is followed up with a full application by that person in due course.

Where a person is terminally ill, a slightly different category is applied. Once the terminal illness is verified, patients are given an emergency medical card on a six monthly rolling basis, as would be right and proper. Given the nature of the issues involved with terminal illness, the HSE has the capacity to ensure the person gets that card as quickly as possible.

If there is no change to the policy, why are there so many appeals? More people have medical cards than ever before.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

That is because of changes in their circumstances.

The Taoiseach

There has been no change in the policy or methodology. The first test-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

They have had these cards for years and they have been taken from them. That is the point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to conclude, please.

The Taoiseach

Who is listening now?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question has been asked and the Taoiseach is replying.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He is not replying to the core point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to conclude on this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is all gobbledegook.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy never wants to hear the truth because he is afraid of it. The first test in the assessment process is whether, following the medical card and GP visit card national assessment guidelines, the applicant is within the income limit. If the applicant is above the financial threshold and there is evidence of medical circumstances or social circumstances applicable to the applicant which might result in great difficulties for this person or family in arranging GP, medical or surgical services, granting of eligibility to a medical card or a GP visit card on a discretionary basis remains a routine aspect of the eligibility assessment process. I confirm to the Deputy that there is no change in the policy or method of assessment. I invite the Deputy to give me the document with the list of people he mentioned.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach has it. He has a letter already from the person.

The Taoiseach

We will just check and see whether what I am saying here applies.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is policy I want changed.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy will not listen and never listens. I do not know the details of the cases the Deputy has mentioned, but against this background I will have them assessed to see whether they comply with the situation that applies here.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I can bring in a bundle of them tomorrow.

The Taoiseach

For years a person who needed a medical card always got a medical card. There are guidelines.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That has changed.

The Taoiseach

All I am saying is that more people have medical cards than ever before. Some 22,500 of those who had discretionary medical cards have moved on to that full medical card list.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

There is now 14% unemployment; we accept that.

The Taoiseach

I invite the Deputy to give me the list of those cases after this and I will have it checked out in order that we can all see-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Can we all bring them in for the Taoiseach? We will have a clinic with him this evening.

The Taoiseach

-----how they measure up in terms of these criteria.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach's pigeonhole will be full.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Can we have order, please?

Deputy Gerry Adams

I agree with an Teachta Martin on the withdrawal of medical cards from citizens who need them. I invite every Deputy, including Fine Gael and Labour Deputies, to send the Taoiseach the list we have for him to review. I appeal to him to listen to what is being said. I especially appeal to him regarding the Government's austerity policy. He spoke about changed social circumstances. There are greatly changed social circumstances because austerity has not worked and is not working. The budget offers a chance to change that and the Government should use the budget to turn the ship and protect citizens as opposed to following the diktat of the European leaders or, indeed, the Taoiseach's own ideological position.

Tá mé fíor-chinnte go dtuigeann an Taoiseach agus an Rialtas gurb iad an lucht oibre, gnóthaí beaga, meán gnóthaí agus teaghlaigh na daoine atá ag fulaingt mar gheall ar an ghéarchéim, géarchéim nár chruthaigh siad sa chéad áit. The Taoiseach knows the people on the live register did not create the crisis. The 300,000 citizens forced to emigrate did not create the crisis. The growing number of citizens awaiting hospital treatment did not create the crisis, nor did the citizens who are denied medical cards. However, they are carrying the burden. This will be the seventh austerity budget if the Government, as appears likely, does not listen to people such as those on these benches. It has taken €30 billion out of the economy. The people need a break. In his heart of hearts the Taoiseach must know that. He must know that people cannot bear the awful punitive measures that are being forced upon them. The budget could reduce the tax burden on ordinary families, protect public services and invest in jobs. That would be a thought. The Government could actually invest in jobs to get people back to work.

I understand the Economic Management Council is meeting this evening to take its final decisions on the budget so there is still time.

There is still time to look back over the past two and a half years and the role of the last Government before that. This is the seventh austerity budget. If it is not working, why does the Government keep doing it? Is the Taoiseach prepared to face the economic reality that austerity is not a sound policy and, probably more important, the social consequences of this policy, and move away onto a more enlightened course?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, will present his third budget to the House next Tuesday. The Economic Management Council will meet today but the Government, the Cabinet, has not and will not sign off on the details of the budget affecting every Department until some time before next Tuesday.

The mandate given to the Government, made up of the two parties of Fine Gael and the Labour Party, was to fix our public finances in a way that will allow for us as a country and as a people to exit the bailout later this year and, second, to accelerate the number of new jobs that are created to provide growth in the economy and hope and confidence for families who either have unemployment or are on very average incomes. They are the two steps involved in the presentation of the Minister's third budget. That is why the framework for the budget for next week has been agreed and accepted by the troika in Brussels as presented here with a change in emphasis from €3.1 billion to €2.5 billion.

I note that the budgetary submission sent in by the Sinn Féin party also has a reduction of €2.5 billion. I am unsure how Deputy Adams relates that to the charges he has just made. We are now in the 15th consecutive month of reductions in the live register. It is very important, as the Minister pointed out, that there be a primary surplus to help us to start reducing debt and to meet our targets, because that sends out an international signal to investment markets of the continued capacity of Ireland to meet its targets and the continued capacity to be recognised as a location for strong investment, which brings about competitiveness, which is always followed by investment in jobs.

The ESRI report indicates the potential to have 3% growth in GNP next year and 2% in GDP. If that can be reached it carries serious potential in terms of jobs. I note the comment from the European Commissioner, Mr. Rehn, in respect of the European Commission endorsing the position taken by the Government as we move to present this budget and, later in the year, as we move out of the bailout programme.

While the crisis was not caused by any of the people Deputy Adams mentioned, the difficulties and the challenges that the Government has had to face take into account the concerns we have about so many families and ordinary people who have had to put up with this for so many years. That is why the Minister, Deputy Noonan, will present his budget in the fairest and most equitable way that the Government can, given the constraints upon us and, at the same time, allow for the capacity for investment and for jobs to be created in schools, roads and capital infrastructure, following on the stimulus package announced by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform last year and this year and in the context of the capital programme between now and 2015.

Our targets and objectives are set and we have achieved them to date. We expect to continue to do that and to exit our programme this year and, between now and the coming years, move to a position where the mindset that applied some years ago will never return. The aim is that we can have put in place safeguards such that whatever happens our country will not slip back into that mentality. That is why the independent Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and all the other opportunities to prevent that happening are important. We recognise the challenge the Government faces. The Government, the Cabinet, as a cabinet, will make its decisions finally before the Minister presents his budget next Tuesday.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The mandate the Government received was not to do the things it is doing, it was to do them differently from the last Government. The people listening in to Leaders' Questions will be very disappointed and depressed. The Taoiseach says the European Commissioner, Mr. Olli Rehn, is happy. Is that how the Government judges its policy, if Olli Rehn says it is good? It gets a pat on the head. What about the people that we have just talked about, those who, the Taoiseach acknowledges, because he could not do anything else, did not create the crisis? The Taoiseach has cited that we are looking for an adjustment in the deficit in our budget proposals which is the same as the Government's, and that is true, but he asks what the difference is. Tá difear mór ann. It is about who carries the burden. We have not seen this budget but if we go by the past number, they were very unfair and mean and they placed the burden upon working people, small businesses and all those who, the Taoiseach freely acknowledges, did not create the crisis. There is the big difference; our budget is fair and tries to lift the burden of those who cannot bear another austerity budget.

The Taoiseach keeps talking about growth projects but the Government does not deliver. There is zero growth this year. Why does the Government not increase the respite care grant for carers? Why does it not provide the €12.58 million needed for bilateral implants for profoundly deaf children? The Taoiseach spoke about listening. I have talked to the Taoiseach about that issue on at least four occasions, I have given him two notes on it, I have written him formally on three or four occasions and I have talked to the Minister for Health on the issue as well. Young profoundly deaf children in this State are given one implant. It is like giving a blind child one eye. Every other state puts in two cochlear implants and the HSE recognises that this is best practice. That is something the Government could do. Why does the Government not take the approximately 300,000 citizens out of the universal social charge net? That is something else the Government could do. Why does the Government not invest in jobs, particularly for young people?

If the Taoiseach is determined to stick with austerity - there is still room to change - I appeal to him to explore with us the social consequences. If the Taoiseach acknowledges, as he has done quite freely, that the litany of citizens who are under great pressure did not create the crisis, then what will another budget do to them, especially if they are already in distress, scattered throughout the globe, on the dole queues or on the waiting lists? What are the social consequences?

As for those in the Labour Party, I appeal to them to wake up to the reality of what they said they would do in government and what they are actually doing in government.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Deputy Adams should come into the real world.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

It is all down to the bank guarantee that Sinn Féin voted for.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams and his party contributed to the wrecking of the economy of this country, North and South, for 30 years.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Along with a few other things as well.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams should understand clearly that this Government has made the decisions with the people that it has made. That is why people abroad recognise the validity of the case that Ireland makes as we make progress for our budget and to exit the programme. Deputy Adams's party is anti-worker, anti-entrepreneur and anti-jobs.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach will have to explain that. We are anti-austerity.

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin has set out in its programme a higher third income tax rate of 48%, which leaves a total top rate of 59% with the universal social charge. That is 48% plus 7% USC plus 4% PRSI, which would drive every higher-paid worker out of the country.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is pathetic.

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin has stated that the VAT on tourism is very important, which it is. It was introduced by the Government and by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan. Sinn Féin has not decided to point out in its budget submission how that would be paid for.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It would be through the pensions levy. The Taoiseach should read the document.

The Taoiseach

The Sinn Féin proposal to increase capital gains tax to 40% would wipe this country off the international start-up market, yet Deputy Adams says this Government is anti-jobs and anti-company.

A 40% capital gains tax rate would mean that no company would come to this country to start up.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yes, like in the 1990s when the economy was booming. That is right.

The Taoiseach

As a nation, we have worked hard to set up an ecosystem, particularly in the digital sector, and the message should go out that Deputy Adams and Sinn Féin want a 40% capital gains tax rate. Were that ever to apply, there would be no start-ups.

Deputy Patrick Nulty

The Taoiseach is clueless.

The Taoiseach

It will not apply because Sinn Féin will not have the opportunity.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Government increased it last year. The Taoiseach should cop himself on.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy should do that.

The Taoiseach

While Sinn Féin's idea to increase employers PRSI literally is a tax on jobs, Deputy Adams comes into this Chamber and speaks of the necessity to create jobs. Sinn Féin has opposed every single measure of the last three years and now it conveniently forgets all of that.

Deputy Gerry Adams

No, we did not.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Sinn Féin supported the Seanad amendment.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Sinn Féin supported-----

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Taoiseach

It conveniently forgets all that.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Deputy Pearse Doherty is right. Sinn Féin supported the bank guarantee.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Silence.

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin has no idea. It just pockets the savings and states it is getting on with it. Sinn Féin chooses to ignore what has been done. Its budget proposal for this year is a carbon copy of what it submitted for the 2012 and 2013 budgets, namely, crippling higher income taxes that would mean a serious loss of place in this country in respect of entrepreneurship or businesses being set up or people working.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach actually believes this.

The Taoiseach

The reason the Government always publishes the medium-term fiscal statement each year is to show people the breakdown of the adjustment for each year up to 2015.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Does it publish it in the German Parliament? In which Parliament does the Government publish it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

The Taoiseach

It publishes it in order that people can see the steps our country is taking to deal with our public financial problems, to restore our economic good health, to get out of this bailout and economically to fly independently again.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The economy is taking off like a rocket with 0% growth this year.

The Taoiseach

This is not being done for anyone in the European Commission.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

It is being done because the people gave the Government a mandate to sort out this problem and I am aware Deputy Adams does not like to hear the ESRI state that Ireland is doing well.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

People are emigrating.

The Taoiseach

He does not like to hear the European Commission state that Ireland is making progress.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must conclude this debate now.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach is out of his saddle now; he is not sitting back.

The Taoiseach

He hates to see people coming in here who independently conclude this is a country into which they should invest because it is energetic, has the technology and is moving in the digital space.

Deputy Finian McGrath

What about the rocket?

The Taoiseach

It is the place for the young people of the world to see as a model-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

They are all over in Canada.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

They are all over in Australia or Canada.

The Taoiseach

-----in which, when moving out of difficulties, one can create a real future for all the people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

However, this will not happen with the Sinn Féin policies or Sinn Féin tactics.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach still is not listening.

The Taoiseach

They would close it down and for 30 years-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

He still is not listening.

The Taoiseach

-----Deputy Adams's party never did anything substantial to help the economy, North or South. Deputy Adams should change his tune too.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please, Deputies.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I remind the House that this is Leaders' Questions. I now call on Deputy Clare Daly. May I have order please?

Deputy Finian McGrath

I hope Deputy Daly gets proper treatment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Clare Daly

I am sorry to ruin the Taoiseach's merriment but just over two weeks ago, I received a letter from an older lady who lives down the country. She had never written to a politician previously but was desperately seeking help and, with her permission, I am raising her case in the Chamber today because she represents thousands of other people who are suffering a similar torment. More importantly, I am raising it because the Taoiseach has the ability to sort out this issue. She told me that she was trying to locate her daughter, who had been born to her in Castlepollard mother and baby home in 1966 and to whose adoption she had never consented. She had been sick after the birth and was in bed on the morning of St. Patrick's Day, when her child was a couple of months old. She was told by the priest and the matron that the child had been adopted and was told to get up and go to mass. No papers were signed and no permission was given. This woman eventually moved on with her life, had four other children and got married. For the past 30 years, she has been trying to find her daughter. She contacted the Sacred Heart nun Sister Sarto, who was the order's search and trace co-ordinator. There were letters, telephone calls, meetings and excuses to the effect that her letter was not received or the order did not have the information. She was told her daughter's adoptive family did not wish to know her or to have anything to do with their. Her request became more urgent when both she and one of her other children twice developed cancer and she wanted her daughter to be aware of her medical history. Even that did not help and she was begging for assistance.

I contacted the Adoption Rights Alliance, which is a voluntary organisation of activists and campaigners, many of whom were born in mother and baby homes and themselves were adopted, and with which I had worked on such cases previously. Last Friday, I received a call from Mr. Paul Redmond of Adoption Rights Now! to tell me that the organisation had found and spoken to her daughter, who was absolutely delighted and was looking forward to meeting her mother. A 30-year search was ended within ten days because of a random correspondence with a Deputy. While being absolutely glad for those concerned, I was boiling mad because the Adoption Rights Alliance did not find that information by chance. This case proves positively that the information was always there but individuals and organisations consciously and deliberately withheld it from those who had a right to know. That is a crime and it is landing on top of the other crime that not only was that child illegally adopted, but it also was found out that the birth had been registered as a legal adoption, which was not the case.

There is no reason this should have happened or why this woman should have been obliged to endure such things. Unfortunately, however, there are thousands of others going through the same thing. In reply to a parliamentary question earlier this year, the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, confirmed to me that 25,000 files from the Sacred Heart mother and baby homes were in the hands of the Health Service Executive, HSE, in Glanmire, County Cork. Given the time importance in this regard, will the Taoiseach meet the Adoption Rights Alliance, which has proven its credibility and credentials in this matter, to discuss the establishment of an emergency task force to enable the thousands of people searching for their basic human right to an identity to secure it?

The Taoiseach

I listened to the story recounted by Deputy Clare Daly and I am glad it has worked out in this particular case. I think the Deputy mentioned the child was born in 1966, which would mean she now is 47. I am unsure whether that women was actively seeking her mother or her mother actively looking for her. Clearly, this was a good ending to a long-running saga in which a mother was looking for her natural born baby. As for the figure of 25,000 people, I do not know how many of that number, mothers or children, are actively looking for one another. I will ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to meet the alliance - I do not know whether such a meeting already has taken place - to ascertain if what the Deputy has outlined is true in respect of other cases. Clearly, the position has changed and people are entitled to find their natural parents and vice versa and that might be a useful engagement. I regret that it has taken a situation for the Deputy to raise it here on Leaders' Questions but it is an important, sensitive and personal issue and I am glad the Deputy's involvement has brought about this meeting and this acquaintance between mother and daughter. Perhaps I will ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to meet Deputy Daly to discuss these and other cases, as well as meeting the adoption alliance to ascertain whether a structured openness can be put in place to enable these things to happen when people want them to happen.

Deputy Clare Daly

While it obviously is a happy ending in this case, the reason the woman concerned gave me permission to raise her case in this Chamber is that, sadly, there are thousands of others where the ending is not so happy. People have spent a lifetime searching only to find out perhaps that the parent had just recently died. This simply is not good enough. In September 2011, the Minister told me that the heads of the Bill on the new adopting and tracing legislation were close to completion and would be progressed fairly speedily. In July 2013, she told me that she hoped to bring the heads of the Bill as early as possible but the legislative programme states Members might get it in 2014. In September 2011, the Minister told me that the Sacred Heart files had been transferred to Glanmire and a system was in place to manage and help people to get the records. In September 2013, she told me that the 25,000 files had been transferred to Cork, that there was a significant demand to access these files and as a result, sadly, the HSE was not in a position to respond but that it was planning to reorganise its approach to dealing with the matter.

This is not good enough. This knowledge has been in the Government's hands for a long time. These are crimes that have been committed against people from whom their identities have been withheld. What I asked the Taoiseach for was not only a meeting. Some people who were illegally adopted recently met the Minister. What they want is action. They have proved that they can play a part in assisting to match people with their parents because of their own experience. Why not bring them to the heart of this matter and get them involved in sorting out what is demonstrably a crisis in people being able to access their files? I ask the Taoiseach again to bring them on board to deliver a solution to this torment that many women and their children have endured for decades.

The Taoiseach

There are 30 heads in the adoption (information and tracing) Bill, to which the Deputy referred, and it is expected to be published in early 2014. The Deputy says there are 25,000 files, and it has been confirmed here by the Minister that they have been sent to Glanmire in Cork and I assume they are stored and categorised. If people are entitled and eligible to access those files, where that is appropriate, it is obvious that a structure needs to be put in place where that can happen. The Deputy mentioned that there is very healthy demand from people to access the files and I assume that is a demand from people who want to access them for the purpose of finding or tracing their children or parents, as the case might be. If it is the position that the files are now in Cork but they appear to be inaccessible, then obviously that is a matter of structure or personnel or access, so let us examine that and see if can we improve the situation.