Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Oct 2013

Vol. 818 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Robert Troy

The reports on how and why the Garda removed two children from their families in Tallaght and Athlone are disturbing on a number of levels. The fact that the children have been returned to their families has to be welcomed but we must also acknowledge the extreme distress the families experienced over the past several days. While the gardaí involved acted in good faith under section 12(1) of the Child Care Act 1991, which states "where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that - (a) there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child", following press coverage of a child in Greece, there was obviously an increase in the number of anonymous calls to the Garda concentrating on Roma families. Questions need to be answered regarding why actions were taken against this minority group in particular. Would these extreme actions be acceptable if the families concerned were Irish nationals? Children should only be removed in extreme circumstances and normally applications are made and private hearings take place beforehand. We need to know why these did not happen in this case. More than 9,000 applications were made last year alone but, as hearings are held in private, there was little media coverage.

The Minister for Justice and Equality has requested an internal report from the Garda Commissioner so that lessons can be learned and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is commissioning an independent report on the cases. If there were genuine and legitimate concerns on the part of the Garda, serious questions need to be answered. Why were the remaining children left in the families and why was it that one of the parents was not allowed to remain with the children while the DNA tests were being conducted? Why was the HSE not asked to make an assessment on the families prior to the removal of the children from their homes?

The Tánaiste

I agree with Deputy Troy that the reports we have heard on the removal of the two children from their families are disturbing on a number of levels and join him in welcoming the fact that the children have been returned to their families. I acknowledge the distress this has caused to the children and families concerned. Deputy Troy accepts that the gardaí acted in good faith on the matter. The first lesson that needs to be learned is that nobody should jump to conclusions. We need to establish the facts and, indeed, the answers to the questions raised by Deputy Troy. This is why the Minister for Justice and Equality has asked the Garda Commissioner to prepare a report on the two cases and why the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has asked the HSE to prepare a report. Both of those reports will go to the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan. We should see that played through.

I would like to know the nature of the complaints or information brought to the Garda that gave rise in the first place to the visit to the families' homes and how that was interrogated. The question then arises of the seriousness and immediacy of the risk to the health and welfare of the children, which form the circumstances in which a child may be removed from a family setting. I would like to know what immediate and serious threat to the children's health and safety was considered to justify their removal from their families. I would like to know how the decision was made, and by whom, and whether there were alternative ways of dealing with whatever issue had confronted the Garda short of removing the children from their homes and family settings. These are questions that the investigations and reports commissioned by the Ministers, Deputies Shatter and Fitzgerald, will have to address. I do not think any of us should prejudge the answers but we need to get the answers, the information and the reports placed in the hands of the Ombudsman for Children.

Deputy Robert Troy

I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. We cannot go back to the days of see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. All of us have a responsibility and we do not want to see these cases being used as a deterrent to protecting children. At the same time, however, we have to prevent over intrusion into family lives. The right balance has to be achieved. One lesson that can be learned is that the Government needs to publish the legislation to provide for proper processes and procedures in dealing with child protection issues. This legislation was promised more than two years ago. Professionals working in the health services and child protection, as well as gardaí, are operating in a legislative vacuum and the Children First guidelines need to be put on a legislative basis and backed up in law. This legislation is overdue and it is an essential part of ensuring robust child protection structures. Can the Tánaiste give us a clear timeframe as to when the legislation will come before the House? In regard to the reports that are to be prepared, can he explain why the Garda report is internal rather than independent and indicate whether they will be given to the families concerned in addition to the Ombudsman once they have been completed?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Also deal with the racism issue.

The Tánaiste

We expect that the legislation will be published this session. As Deputy Troy will be aware, the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, has been bringing forward the guidelines and legislation. It is important to recognise this is not an issue of legislation; it is an issue of practice. The issue to be addressed is what happens in practice. We can have all the legislation and guidelines in the world.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about what you did with the referendum?

Deputy Finian McGrath

There is also an issue of prejudice. Deal with that aspect.

The Tánaiste

The circumstances in which the Garda may intervene in a family situation and children may be removed for their own safety have already been established. The question that arises is what happened in this case. We must establish the facts. The intention is that those reports will be prepared over the next two to three weeks and will be given to the children's Ombudsman, who will liaise on them with the families. The dimension raised by Deputy Troy, namely, whether a group of people in our country are of a particular ethnic background or so on, clearly should not be given extra or special attention in child safety matters. I would be concerned if there was any element of that in these cases, but that is something that the report to be prepared must address.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

No more than the Tánaiste, I do not wish to jump to conclusions about this case. We should not, as it would not be helpful. Perhaps we can imagine the scene - a knock at the families' doors and their children taken away, from what we can ascertain on the simple basis that their colouring did not fit the racial profile of the families concerned. A number of core and deeply troubling issues arise from these cases and what is already in the public domain. The first is the possibility of racial profiling and targeting of Roma families out of prejudice, fear or suspicion. We need clear statements from the House and the Tánaiste on behalf of the Government to the effect that no family or child will be discriminated against or targeted in any way on the basis of race, ethnicity, skin colour, eye colour or hair colour.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The second issue relates to the State's capacity to protect the rights of children. Many people following this story see the marked contrast between, on the one hand, last week's revelation by the children's Ombudsman of the HSE's failure to intervene over several years after a child made multiple allegations of rape or another report of 4,100 children who had been assessed by the HSE as needing intervention but having to wait more than three months for that intervention and, on the other, the heavy arm of the State in these cases. This is troubling. I do not wish these cases to undermine the State's capacity to protect our children, which is a fundamental role. However, there is a great amount of public disquiet about whether the State can move in willy-nilly and in an arbitrary fashion to take people's children from them. Will the Tánaiste categorically state that this is not the case?

The third issue relates to the nature of the proposed investigations. It is not satisfactory that the Garda would investigate the Garda or that the HSE would investigate the HSE.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Certainly not.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It would be better for the inquiry to be independent and under the auspices of the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, from the outset.

The Tánaiste

Deputy McDonald has raised three issues. First, she asked me for a categoric statement in respect of discrimination against any family or child on the basis of ethnic or other background. Let us be clear - all children and families in this country, irrespective of ethnic, religious and other backgrounds, enjoy the same rights. There can be no discrimination, targeting or special treatment. Irrespective of backgrounds, people have the right to be treated equally. This is clearly the position of the Government as well as every Member who sits in this House.

The second issue is that of reporting. Deputy McDonald is right in that this country has had a culture of not reporting the abuse of children. In some cases, people who were aware of child abuse did not report it for a long time. Happily, we are seeing an end to that culture.

We need and have a child protection regime that puts children and their safety first, but we must also ensure the way in which this regime is delivered, managed and operated is proportionate and sensitive. Allegations or information given to the Garda or authorities should be examined. Only in cases of a serious and immediate threat or risk to the safety or health of a child should that child be removed from a family. Other options must be explored.

As to the reports requested by the Ministers, Deputies Shatter and Fitzgerald, the Garda Commissioner's will be on the handling of the situation by the Garda and the HSE's will be on how it and its child protection workers handled the situation. The intention is that these two reports will go to the children's Ombudsman. We should then wait for her recommendations on what further steps might need to be taken. First, however, we need to establish what happened and get the initial reports. We will then hear the recommendations of the children's Ombudsman, who is independent and in whom I and Deputies have considerable confidence.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Although it is true to say that there was a culture in this State and beyond of not reporting child abuse, which occurred most commonly in the family home, the State has a much deeper legacy of institutional abuse and of failing to protect children. It also has a history of confiscating children. This is a part of the psychological landscape of how many people view the State and its incapacity to protect our children. We must acknowledge this, not play up to it. Many people judge this turn of events against that backdrop.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

They see a hands-off approach in respect of the many children who are in genuine risk and crisis while the children in Tallaght and Athlone were arbitrarily taken from their homes.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I welcome the Tánaiste's emphatic statement of equality of treatment for every child and family-----

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

A question has not been asked.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----but that must be real in practice as well as in rhetoric. It is not appropriate and will not build public confidence for the Garda to investigate itself or for the HSE to investigate itself. Why not give the investigative process to the Ombudsman for Children in the first instance and allow her independent office, which is charged with the rights and welfare of children, to take the inquiry from start to finish?

The Tánaiste

We need to reflect on what is important, namely, the safety of children. We all agree that the practices and neglect that formed part of our history in dealing with children must be put behind us. That is being done. The safety and welfare of children are being put at the heart of the entire child protection system.

As regards how that is operated, however, it has to be done in an accountable way. Many people have basic questions to ask about what happened. How did the gardaí arrive at a home and remove a child in circumstances where, as we now know, there does not appear to have been any basis for doing so? How did that happen? What was the report or information the gardaí had that led them to go to the house in the first place?

Deputy Joe Higgins

A bigoted busybody on Facebook.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Minister was promising to lock up bankers and all he has done is to lock up children.

The Tánaiste

We need answers to these questions in order to establish the facts. What happened in the house and how was the decision made? What was the risk or danger and who made the decision? In the first instance, we will get reports from the Garda Commissioner and the HSE. We will place them in the hands of the Children's Ombudsman and let us see what report ensues. There may well be issues that we will then have to return to and address at that stage. In the first instance, however, let us hear what are the actual facts of what happened. We must get the basic questions answered and hear what the independent children's Ombudsman has to say about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter will be discussed further during Topical Issues later today. I call Deputy Donnelly.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Can we not pose questions to the Minister now?

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

Following what Deputy McDonald said, I applaud the Tánaiste's passion for equality and non-discrimination, which is obviously very real. However it is a bit hard to take when tomorrow the Government will vote through a piece of legislation that discriminates on no grounds other than age. Perhaps that is something to reflect upon.

I wish to ask the Tánaiste about the European Stability Mechanism. EU leaders are meeting today and tomorrow in Brussels. It is clear that one of the issues to be discussed is the retrospective recapitalisation of banks using the European Stability Mechanism. This is critical for Ireland. As everyone in this House knows, we have poured about €64 billion into the failed banking system in Ireland. The latest information from the budgetary documents suggests that next year we will pay about €2.7 billion in interest on the money we all poured into the banks. Let us put that in perspective. The entire gain to the Exchequer of all the measures from the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill - including cuts to those under 26 - will be about €100 million. Let us think about this for a second. The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill will return to the Exchequer about 1/27th of the money that we will pay in interest - not on the national debt, but just the bit of the national debt that is there because of the banking crisis. The youth who will be discriminated against in tomorrow's legislation will pay that €2.7 billion in their taxes for the rest of their lives, unless Ireland can get a substantial deal on recapitalisation of the Irish banks.

I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach has written to his EU counterparts to keep this imperative at centre stage. Labour and Fine Gael made a lot of noise before the election about senior bondholders sharing the burden.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question please. We are over time.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

However, when they came into office and Angela Merkel said "No", the Government acquiesced and since then tens of billions of euro have been paid out. In fact, we do not even know how much burden sharing was asked for.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy put his question please? He is over time.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

My question is in two parts. First, can the Tánaiste tell the House how much recapitalisation has been asked for? How many billions or tens of billions have been asked for? If Angela Merkel continues to say "No" - and she is clearly, publicly saying that right now - is there a plan B?

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

On a point of order, the clock was ticking when I was speaking but it is off now.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will you stay quiet please?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lawlor should mind his own business for a moment.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The clock is ticking in Deputy Lawlor's constituency.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

Watch your own constituency, Timmy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Donnelly please put his question?

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

I am trying to, a Cheann Comhairle. There are two parts to the question. First, to what extent is the Government asking for recapitalisation?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should stay quiet please.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

Second, if Angela Merkel and other EU leaders say "No", does the Government have a plan B, or is the intention to continue making the payments?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are no clocks in operation for Leaders' Question. That is the answer to Deputy Lawlor's question. He should not interrupt somebody in the middle of their question.

Eamon Gilmore

As the Deputy is aware, when this Government took office at the beginning of 2011 we inherited an unholy mess, including the bank guarantee and huge problems in the banks. We have had to work to get out of that situation. Over that period, we have managed our affairs in such a way that we will exit the bailout at the end of this year. In addition, we succeeded in negotiating the terms of the deal that was made by the previous government. In the first instance, it was to secure a reduction in the interest rate. I remember people in this House saying that we would not get a 1% reduction and we got over 2%.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

What did he ask for? He asked for 1% and got 2%.

Eamon Gilmore

Second, we succeeded in negotiating the end of the promissory note payment and the liquidation of Anglo Irish Bank, or the IBRC as it had then become.

Third, we succeeded in persuading our European partners to make a significant policy decision in June 2012 on the separation of bank and sovereign debt. Ireland's situation was specifically referenced in that decision because Ireland had done its recapitalisation before the new European mechanisms were put in place, including the ideas around banking union and the ESM.

Following that, we pressed ahead with implementing the banking union and quite an amount of work was done on that in the course of our EU Presidency. The issue will be discussed at the European Council again tomorrow. In order to make Ireland's position absolutely clear, the Taoiseach has written to President Van Rompuy and the other 27 EU Heads of State and Government. He has made it clear that we want delivery on the June 2012 agreement.

All the previous negotiations, which we successfully concluded to the benefit of the Irish taxpayer, were conducted on the basis that we would not state our negotiating position publicly. It would be unwise and we will not do so in this situation either, other than to say that we are determined to get the best outcome for the Irish taxpayer. We have some form on this because on all the previous occasions when we had major negotiations to conduct, we succeeded in getting a satisfactory outcome for the Irish taxpayer. It was an outcome which went beyond the most pessimistic expectations that were often expressed in this House.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. To set the record straight, the interest rate was achieved by Portugal and then applied to Ireland. When the Government sought an interest rate reduction it did not get one.

The Tánaiste made an extraordinary comment which was that the Government had ended the promissory note payment. Unless I am mistaken, we are going to pay €210 million next year on interest on the promissory note and we still owe €28 billion in promissory note bonds. Just so that everybody understands, the promissory note payment has not changed. It has moved from a promissory note to a bond. We still owe the money and will still pay it all. The Tánaiste is correct in saying that the Government achieved a great success in June 2012 with that statement. I applaud him for it. My question goes to the heart of that statement. Being nice and paying everybody else's bills is not a strategy. That is what has happened on the promissory notes.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question please.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

If the Tánaiste wants to use public money to pay my mortgage, I will tell everyone in Europe that he is great as well. The question is important.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy his question please? We are not having statements, this is Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

How much recapitalisation has the Government asked for? I am not asking what is plan B.

I am asking if the Government has a plan B, other than paying if Angela Merkel says "No".

The Tánaiste

Deputy Donnelly has been wrong successively in his predictions as to what would happen. The Deputy did not think we would exit the bailout.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

Really? When did I say that?

The Tánaiste

He is now saying that does not matter.

Deputy Robert Troy

When did he say that?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He did not say that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy did not think we would get the reduction in the interest rate.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

When did I say that?

The Tánaiste

He did not think we would get a conclusion to the promissory note issue. The Deputy now appears to be wishing that we will fail in relation to the issue of the recapitalisation of the banks. It is time----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

The Tánaiste is the only one who cares about it. What sanctimonious waffle.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

When it comes to sanctimonious, Deputy Donnelly has no equal in this House.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

With the exception of the Tánaiste.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Donnelly, please allow the Tánaiste to reply to your question.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

I will.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Donnelly asked if the Government has a plan B. We have a plan B, plan C and plan D.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They are all the same: empty.

The Tánaiste

We are well prepared, as we were on the previous occasions when we were successful, to conclude these negotiations. We will do so. Very often these are matters of timing. We will do so when we are in the best position to secure the best option for the Irish taxpayer. This is what the taxpayer expects us to do. We have set out our position to the European Council meeting. This was set out in a letter from the Taoiseach. The issue of recapitalisation does not arise until the banking union and ESM structures have been put in place, which will be some time next year. Clearly, it would not be wise for us to wait until next year to set out our position and to ensure it is clearly understood. We will continue to do so until we get a satisfactory outcome, as we have done on each of the previous occasions.