Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Oct 2013

Vol. 818 No. 3

Order of Business

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 11a, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 11b, Companies Bill 2012 - Financial Resolution; and No. 3a, Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2013 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 5.45 p.m. today and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; the sitting shall be suspended at 2.42 p.m. until 3.42 p.m. today; Nos. 11a and 11b shall be decided without debate; the proceedings in regard to Second Stage of No. 3a shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. tonight; the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m.; there shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Order 26 and, accordingly, the business to be transacted shall be as follows: the Financial Resolution on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2013, shall be taken without debate; and Committee and Remaining Stages of that Bill shall be taken and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Social Protection.

The Dáil on its rising tomorrow shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 November 2013.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 5.45 p.m. tonight and shall suspend from 2.42 p.m. until 3.42 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 11a and 11b agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 3a agreed to?

Deputy Willie O'Dea

No. The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2013 is lengthy and complex legislation. It was published only 36 hours ago. Since its publication, the Bills Office has been in contact with my office in regard to proposed amendments because the Bill will progress to Committee and Remaining Stages immediately on conclusion of Second Stage.

The Tánaiste will be aware that more than 1 million people in this country are directly or indirectly dependent on social welfare. This complex legislation will have serious consequences for many of those people. For example, the Bill proposes to slash jobseeker's benefit for the under 25s.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot go into the detail of the Bill now. He may only deal now with the arrangements.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

It also abolishes the bereavement grant and free telephone allowance. These measures will have the most profound consequences for some of the most vulnerable people in this country. Why the rush? In the lead up to the last general election, when the Labour Party was in opposition, it proposed, as part of Dáil reform, that there be an interval between the different Stages of legislation so that people would have an opportunity to reflect on what was said on Second Stage. Why the rush to get this Bill through all Stages by 4 p.m. tomorrow? It is still only October. These measures do not take effect until January. What is the rush? Is this the democratic revolution we were promised prior to the election?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Tánaiste and his Labour Party and Fine Gael colleagues have introduced what can only be described as a disgraceful budget. Consequential on this they are now bringing forward a disgraceful Social Welfare and Pensions Bill, which at the end of the day is yet another open invitation to young Irish people to leave these shores in their tens of thousands. The Government promised there would be no interference with core social welfare payments but it has broken that promise, as evidenced by the facts contained in this proposed legislation.

On promised Dáil reform, how does the proposal to guillotine the Second Stage debate on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2013 at 10 p.m. tonight and to guillotine all of the Remaining Stages tomorrow sit with the commitment of the Government to Dáil reform? It is the direct opposite. It represents the worst practices of the past. I appeal to members to revisit this. The guillotine should be lifted and proper debate should be allowed.

The Tánaiste

The Bill is relatively short.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Short and sharp.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

It is complex legislation.

The Tánaiste

It contains only 15 sections. Its content has been known since the budget was announced. A total of 13 hours has been provided for debate on the Bill, seven and a half for the Second Stage debate and five and a half hours for Committee and Remaining Stages. I understand that, following the Order of Business, the Whip will meet to discuss with the Opposition spokespersons a timetable in regard to the taking of the different sections, which is a sensible way of allocating the time. The amount of time allocated for debate on the Bill is adequate to deal with a Bill of 15 sections.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Tánaiste should tell that to his constituents.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Does the Tánaiste really believe that?

The Tánaiste

All of the arguments that need to be made can be made in that time. We are open to a division of time in relation to the taking of different sections and so on. That matter will be discussed by the Whips following the Order of Business.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Labour Party would never have taken that position when in opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must now put the question.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

I must object.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not object to anything. He will resume his seat.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

This is directly contrary to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat, Deputy.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

On a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

I am entitled to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will have a democratic vote now.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

This is dictatorship and Gestapo tactics.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Government is trying to ram through the legislation. This is dictatorship and you are part of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Dea, I take grave exception. You got your time to explain why you should get more time. Do not drag me into this argument. I then put the question. If the Deputy reads the Standing Order he is entitled to a very short explanation. Withdraw that remark.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

Apologise.

Deputies

Withdraw the remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Withdraw that remark please.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

I formally withdraw it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not taking that sort of abuse from you or anybody else.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Remember that.

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 48.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Collins, Áine.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Conway, Ciara.
• Coonan, Noel.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Creed, Michael.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lyons, John.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Daly, Clare.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are not in favour of what is proposed for tomorrow. We have already outlined why we believe Committee Stage of the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill should be delayed until after next week so that there is sufficient reflection on the Second Stage debate. The question to be put to the Dáil tomorrow requires that only amendments prepared and put by the Minister can be voted upon. In a very stark way that illustrates the paucity of genuine engagement that will occur on the Bill. The Tánaiste was on this side of the House and the general public were promised a lot in terms of Dáil reform. We were promised a pre-legislative phase for Bills, which will not happen with this Bill.

Deputy Jim Daly

The Deputy's party promised a soft landing too.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Above all there should be a separation between Second Stage and Committee Stage of a Bill if we are serious about it. The fact that Committee Stage will be rammed through tomorrow will mean that no amendments, ideas or change will be entertained.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

That is not true.

A Deputy

Another power grab.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the obvious implication of what is to happen tomorrow. Given that the measures will not take effect until January, there is no imperative for us to proceed as proposed tomorrow. The Government wants to ram this through as quickly as possible to shut down dissent and stop the negative publicity that may arise from the Bill in the hope that people will forget about it in due course.

A Deputy

A power grab.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, we do not need the chorus.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The proposal before us is neither required nor appropriate. The Tánaiste spoke earlier about the number of hours. It is not anyone's role or reserve to make a judgment as to what hours are required. It should be open to the House to deal with any legislation in a proper, calm and measured way. Let us consider the Tánaiste's record of opposition to guillotines in this House over many years. There is no consistency between the position he adopted as an Opposition party leader and that which he is now supporting and advocating in government. The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill is before us much earlier than has been the case heretofore. There is no requirement for the guillotine to apply and, of course, the Government already knows it is wholly inappropriate. We will be opposing it.

The Tánaiste

As I said earlier, a total of 13 hours have been provided for the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. That contrasts with what Deputy Martin's party provided-----

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Government parties promised to be different. They promised change.

The Tánaiste

----- in 2010, which was six hours and 15 minutes.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What year was that?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Ray Butler

Deputy Dooley can forget about the past.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Government Deputies were out canvassing and did not have time to come in here and speak.

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Social Protection tells me she offered the Opposition more time and they turned it down.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is not true.

The Tánaiste

There will be plenty of time with 13 hours.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

She also says a lot about what she does not say to the Tánaiste.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

One cannot believe everything she says.

The Tánaiste

Thirteen hours is plenty of time for Fianna Fáil to tell us where it would get €1.7 billion extra in cuts in the social welfare budget.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

It is plenty of time for Sinn Féin to tell us where it would get the 37% reduction it would have to apply in social welfare.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order-----

Question put: "That the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow be agreed."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 48.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Collins, Áine.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Conway, Ciara.
• Coonan, Noel.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Creed, Michael.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lyons, John.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Daly, Clare.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Finally, is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising tomorrow shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 November 2013 agreed to? Agreed.