I want to raise with the Minister of State the matter of the pensions of staff who transfer from county councils to Irish Water. It would be a huge imposition on councils if they had to continue to fund these pensions as they fund the pensions of staff from within their own resources. Such an imposition would present a huge bill for them. I would like the Minister of State to indicate how the matter will be dealt with. Will the pensions bill be transferred to Irish Water or will the councils be compensated for its payment? It is an unreasonable proposition that councils continue to pay from their scant resources the pensions of staff transferred from them.
Water Services (No. 2) Bill 2013 [Seanad]: Committee and Remaining Stages
Section 1 agreed to.
Amendment No. 1 not moved.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."
I thank the Deputy the raising this point. The Bill provides that the payment of accrued pension benefits to local authority staff who transfer to Irish Water or Uisce Éireann, either now or following the termination of a service level agreement, will not be imposed on city and council councils. Councils will not have to pay.
The service level agreement will provide for the payment by Uisce Éireann of existing water service pensioners for the duration of the agreement. I confirm that the County and City Managers Association which has been centrally involved at all times in every aspect of the Bill in the oversight of the reform programme has also been given very clear commitments by my Department. These commitments address other pension liabilities in respect of water service employees who, on the termination of a service level agreement, opt to remain in employment with a council rather than transfer to Irish Water. I hope that satisfactorily answers the Deputy's question.
I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I am reassured by and happy with that response. Encouraged by that success, may I raise another question under this section?
We are dealing with section 3 which covers expenses.
I hope this section is the correct one, but the Leas-Cheann Comhairle can correct me if I am wrong. While all of us in local authority areas in all constituencies accept the great priority of the city of Dublin in terms of population and its particular difficulties and while we are all in favour of dealing with it, we are afraid that in the process of dealing with it, without strong participation by local authorities in planning, rural areas in Cavan and Monaghan and similar constituencies will lose out in terms of infrastructure and support because of the real needs of Dublin. We are not for a moment suggesting that its real needs should not be addressed, but we need a mechanism within legislation to ensure one is not done to the detriment of another.
That is an important point. Irish Water is obliged under legislation to consult every local authority and to examine and get involved in discussions about county development plans, regional development plans and national plans. Irish Water has given a commitment, which it will follow up after 1 January, to have meetings with local authority members around the country on a regional basis. Each elected member will have an official of the county council working in the water services area as a contact point under the service level agreement. There will be direct access and information for councillors. If issues arise with regard to the plan, councillors will be consulted. When there are problems with the water supply, councillors will receive text messages and immediate and urgent communication. If the councillor wishes to contact Irish Water directly on its 1850 number, there will be a direct number for elected members. They will be satisfied that they are able to communicate instantly. Some years ago, when water supplies froze in many cities and towns, councillors had such access, and this will now continue. I am confident that the Deputy will be satisfied with my reply.
I thank the Minister of State for his clarification of an issue that is of concern across the country as well as in Cavan-Monaghan. Irish Water has adopted a policy of refusing to answer questions to councillors in County Clare. That is my understanding, although I am not a member of Clare County Council. It is a relatively small matter. Of greater importance is that Irish Water will continue to answer questions from councillors in the future, so that this is not just an ad hoc policy. Irish Water should be accountable to elected representatives at local level or in the Oireachtas. In Shannon, local representatives encountered difficulty recently in getting answers from the EPA. I would not like to see that replicated. We all hear about difficulties getting answers from the HSE, and the aim of this Government, unlike previous Governments, is not to set up unaccountable quangos. It is to set up organisations that provide national co-ordination but are accountable to elected representatives. What statutory provision ensures that Irish Water is accountable and provides answers to local or national elected representatives?
Arrangements for communication between Uisce Éireann and elected representatives will take place in January. Irish Water and local authorities will establish local points of contact in keeping with the expectations of elected representatives. The contact point will be a local official who knows the water services. I mentioned a hotline for councillors. In addition to these reactive measures, Uisce Éireann intends to develop a proactive communication system with elected representatives, including SMS alerts of operational activities or incidents, regular briefings and information on significant milestones, and proactive engagement on the development of major capital infrastructure. The metering regional communications team will continue to be a point of contact.
Irish Water will be required to submit an annual report that will be laid before the Oireachtas, which can debate it in the House. If requested by Oireachtas committees to appear, Irish Water is obliged to come in to discuss issues. I was not aware of the situation in County Clare but I will bring it to the attention of my officials. I will get a response for the Deputy. The key is that there is accountability through Parliament.
Accountability also exists through the Commission for Energy Regulation. When Irish Water produces its development plan for water infrastructure, it will provide it to the energy regulator, which must go through it line by line and examine and analyse the cost of operations in detail. It will be a public document open for public debate and discussion. Before the regulator makes a decision, the document will be in the public domain and everyone will have an opportunity to make comments. It is critical that we have this level of communication. Every indication from the regulator, whom I met yesterday, and Irish Water is that it will happen. While the regulator's decision cannot be changed and we do not have the power to do so, the Government can direct Irish Water or the regulator to do certain things in matters of Government policy.
I appreciate the weakness in the HSE which led to the current situation. I am convinced by the commitments we have and by the independent regulator, who will assert independence and accountability and will be proactive in communicating and putting out information. While the Bill will probably pass today, we have one year to get the detail of how it will work correct. We can tease out these issues between now and then and I am confident that we will satisfy people on these points.
I thank the Minister of State and I reiterate that the provision highlighted is of some comfort. My concern is not what will happen under this Government but the legislative provision to ensure a local point of contact responsible for receiving questions and providing answers. It cannot be something that ceases with this Government; it must be an imposition on Irish Water into the future. Can the Minister of State point to a provision in statute that guarantees this into the future? I am comforted by what the Minister of State proposes and I accept it will happen but I am less confident of what will happen in the future. Members are here to provide law that pertains to the provision of water services into the future. I would like to see it guaranteed. Will the Minister of State introduce an amendment on Report Stage if there is no such provision?
The section I am talking about provides that Irish Water shall prepare investment plans setting out where it considers infrastructure necessary for the effective performance of its duties. In developing that plan, Irish Water shall take account of the water services strategic plan prepared under section 26 and a range of other policy considerations and, specifically, local area plans, regional planning guidelines and strategic development zones. Before preparing an investment plan, Irish Water will be required to consult the EPA, regional bodies in respect of whose functional areas the investment plan is likely to apply and each planning authority in respect of whose functional area the investment plan is likely to apply. Copies of the investment plan must be submitted by Irish Water to the regional and planning authorities.
There is no provision, high up or low down, that Irish Water shall answer questions from elected representatives pertaining to its areas of responsibility.
Will the Minister of State accept an amendment to that effect or introduce something on Report Stage?
I accept the Minister of State has the best intentions and Irish Water may even have good intentions but we are setting up yet another unaccountable body. There is no legislative provision for elected representatives to be able to ask questions and receive answers. If we are not elected to ask questions and receive answers, what are we doing here and what do we expect elected representatives to do in future? We are taking away democratic accountability on water services, which rests currently with local authorities, and replacing it with no democratic accountability. Will the Minister of State please accept an amendment to make Irish Water accountable? Surely accountability is part of what this Government is about.
I understand this section deals with expenses and later we will deal with transfers from local authorities.
It is relevant nonetheless.
The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is pointing out the section we are dealing with but I have no problem answering the question. Uisce Éireann will be accountable to the Oireachtas through the annual report, just like Irish Rail and other semi-State companies such as Bord Gáis and Bord na Móna. That report is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, so there is no question of the Deputy or anybody else not being able to come in here and ask questions of Irish Water about any issue. The annual report will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and will be a matter for discussion. There is no issue of the Deputy not being able to ask questions, write to this body or otherwise communicate with it. Representatives can be brought before committees. I do not see a problem in this respect. As Irish Water has a development role, there must be consultation with other bodies. There is no question in my mind about the body being accountable and having an acceptable plan.
At the other end of the argument one might assume there is a problem that is not being dealt with by the Government, a Minister or the Oireachtas. In the legislation there is power for the Minister to direct on matters of Government policy, although he or she cannot interfere in certain other matters. That directive would only come in exceptional and unusual circumstances.
This section is only concerned with expenses.
We can all lay reports before the Houses but that does not equate to democratic accountability. If the water is cut off in Scarriff, Dundalk or any other area, or if the water is discoloured, as Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan pointed out so dramatically this morning, the water services engineers can be brought in before the county council to explain what is happening. There is no such procedure for a local representative to ask what is happening with water in their area when Irish Water has responsibility. There is no provision for a national representative to ask about this either.
If a train does not operate between Dublin and Drogheda, a Deputy has no power to ask why it did not operate. A local elected representative does not have that power either, and perhaps they should not have that power. We are talking about the provision of a service as basic as water, and we are asking people to pay increasing water charges and other charges for local services. At the same time we are asking people to pay more, we are providing less accountability, with fewer possibilities to hold a body accountable for the services provided. Unfortunately, that is not progress.
Deputy McNamara has this utterly wrong. I will give an example from my experience. The Deputy's party is part of the Government but I sat as part of the Opposition for a number of years, and in that time we ensured that representatives of Irish Rail came in week after week before an Oireachtas committee in order to deal with issues like audits and other operational issues germane and important to elected representatives and the Oireachtas as a whole. In fairness, Senator Ross and I pursued the matter with great vigour. It is wrong to say that Uisce Éireann will not be accountable to the House. As a Deputy I had every opportunity to bring officials from similar companies before committees time and again, and as a member of such a committee there was no bar to the questioning. In fairness to the Irish Rail representatives, they came in time and again.
Deputy McNamara's contribution has also lost sight of the fact that there is a 12-year service level agreement between Clare County Council and Uisce Éireann. For each one of those 12 long years, Clare County Council will be carrying on its functions for Uisce Éireann, acting as its agent. Every councillor sitting on an elected body in County Clare can at any meeting raise any issues he or she likes. As I have already stated, he or she will also have a dedicated person on the county council who will deal solely with water services to answer any questions. If the elected representative is dissatisfied with this - as is his or her entitlement - there is the option to ring Uisce Éireann on a dedicated line. He or she would have absolute access to all information at all times. Uisce Éireann must consult all elected authorities and have due regard to the development and regional plans. There is also a national picture. The Deputy is wrong on all counts.
As the Minister of State has rightly said, elected representatives can ask all the questions they want. That is not the issue. Does the Minister of State have any idea how many questions I have asked about the HSE? It is not a matter of the power to ask questions but rather an obligation to provide answers. There will be no obligation to provide answers.
There is an obligation to "consult" and "have regard to". One can go to the High Court any day and find out how little it means to "have regard to." I have just had regard to a piece of paper, which is a beautiful piece of paper, and onwards we go. Will the Minister of State cut out the bluff and the bluster?
The Deputy is the one who is blustering. I resent that.
Will the Minister of State impose a duty on Uisce Éireann to answer the questions raised by elected representatives? It is as simple as a "Yes" or "No".
Somebody has told me the Deputy is a barrister. I do not know but in here he is a Dáil Deputy like me. I should be clear that on the interim board of Uisce Éireann there is a single representative of the elected members of this country. I do not agree that such a representative will act in the manner described by the Deputy. I am absolutely satisfied that Uisce Éireann has in place the absolute commitment to do all and each-----
Accept the amendment then.
I did not interrupt the Deputy. I am exceptionally clear on the issue. Uisce Éireann is well aware of my views and those demonstrated by the Deputy. These issues have been discussed with its representatives on a regular basis. There is no belief, either on my behalf or in the Department, that Irish Water will not be accountable. I am satisfied that the body will be accountable and if the Deputy does his job as I do mine, he will have its representatives before the Oireachtas committee when the recess finishes. That is what Deputies should do, and I would be disappointed if they did not do so. The same answer would come from them.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 4 agreed to.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
Section 5 agreed to.
Amendment No. 3, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, is out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Amendment No. 4, in the name of Deputy Barry Cowen, is out of order as it is declaratory in nature and in conflict with the provisions of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.
Section 6 agreed to.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
Amendments Nos. 6 and 7, in the name of Deputy Barry Cowen, are out of order as they are outside the scope of the Bill and involve a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 not moved.
Section 7 agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
Amendment No. 8, in the name of Deputy Barry Cowen, is out of order as it is outside the scope of the Bill and involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendment No. 8 not moved.
Section 10 agreed to.
Amendment No. 9, in the name of Deputy Barry Cowen, is out of order as it is outside the scope of the Bill and involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendment No. 9 not moved.
Section 11 agreed to.
Amendment No. 10 not moved.
Amendment No. 11, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, is out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment Nos. 11 and 12 not moved.
Amendment Nos. 13 and 14, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, are out of order as they in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment Nos. 13 to 15, inclusive, not moved.
Section 12 agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 16 and 17, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, are out of order as they are in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendments Nos. 16 and 17 not moved.
Section 13 agreed to.
Amendment No. 18 not moved.
Amendment No. 19, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, is out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment No. 19 not moved.
Section 14 agreed to.
Sections 15 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
Amendment No. 20, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, is out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time and involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendment No. 20 not moved.
Amendment No. 21, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, is out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Amendment No. 21 not moved.
Amendment No. 22, in the name of Deputy Catherine Murphy, is out of order as it is outside the scope of the Bill and involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendment No. 22 not moved.
Section 19 agreed to.
Section 20 agreed to.
SECTION 21
Amendment No. 23 not moved.
Amendment No. 24, in the name of Deputy Brian Stanley, and amendment No. 25, in the name of Deputy Barry Cowen, are out of order as they are in conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a Second Time and involve a potential charge on the Exchequer.
Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 not moved.
I move amendment No. 26:
In page 14, to delete lines 36 to 38 and substitute the following:
“(2) The amount of a charge under subsection (1) shall be calculated by Irish Water in accordance with the approved water charges plan subject to the provision of an exempted allocation based on the household size.”.
Amendment No. 23 with which this amendment was grouped was not moved. I did not create the grouping and want to speak to my amendments. What is happening is a farce. There should have been a proper Second Stage debate and there should be a proper debate on Committee and Report Stages. My difficulty is that I am a public representative and my job is to represent the concerns of my constituents. One in every four people in my county cannot drink the water coming from the tap. I cannot abdicate my responsibility as a public representative to express their concern and anger about what is occurring.
I seek clarification because in his initial contribution the Minister of State misled the House by saying that 90% of the boil water notices are in Roscommon. I do not believe that is correct.
I think the use of the word "misled" is wrong. I did not say that 90% of the population currently affected by boil water notices are in Roscommon. I said that 90% of boil notices are in that county. Essentially, nine out of every ten people who have a problem with drinking water quality are living in Roscommon. That is the point I was making.
That is correct, yes.
That was not misleading and I hope the Deputy accepts that.
I just wanted clarification that 90% of boil notices are not in Roscommon, although we have significant problems with a number of schemes.
I wholeheartedly endorse the comments of Deputy McNamara because what he said is absolutely correct and accurate. The Minister of State knows in his heart that what he said is true. Deputy McNamara was wrong on one point, however. He gave an example relating to the HSE. While I agree there is huge difficulty in getting accountability from the HSE, at least in the legislation relating to the HSE, there is a legal responsibility on the Executive to respond to parliamentary questions. There is no such legal responsibility in this legislation vis-à-vis Irish Water.
This typifies what has gone on here today. There is no accountability with regard to the passage of this legislation, with only minutes allowed to ram it through. There has been no legitimate debate on the Bill and there will be no mechanism to hold Irish Water to account once it is passed. The Minister of State has said that its representatives can appear before the Oireachtas committee. In the past Oireachtas committees worked far more effectively than they do now. If one asks the members of the Committee on Health and Children if they are satisfied with the level of accountability from the HSE and they will say "no". Every single member will tell one that but the HSE has a legal responsibility, underpinned by legislation, to answer parliamentary questions. Irish Water will not have such a responsibility. That is a fundamental flaw in this legislation and it is for that reason alone that I will be opposing the passage of this Bill. What is going on here is a farce.
One in four people in Roscommon has a boil water notice at the moment and I fundamentally disagree with them being charged for water. It is morally wrong and this legislation facilitates the imposition of charges on those people. The Minister of State said that he can direct Irish Water not to charge those people but there is nothing in the legislation that says that if people cannot drink the water coming from their taps, they do not have to pay for it. I want that written into the legislation. It is a basic human right and that provision should be written into the Bill - if one cannot drink it, one does not pay for it. It is as simple as that. It is wrong that such a provision is not being written into the legislation. I urge the Minister to concede and accept the amendment I have tabled.
People should have a legal right to an allocation of water for which they do not have to pay. Access to water is a human right and people should legitimately have access to some water free of charge. The Minister of State may say that is the Government's intention but again, there is nothing in the legislation to guarantee it. What we have is a facilitating Bill that allows Irish Water to do whatever it likes. It will produce an annual report and then get a nod and a wink through the committee, one day a year, but it will not be accountable to these Houses. What Deputy McNamara has said should set off alarm bells for every single Member of this House. If the elected members of Clare County Council cannot get answers from Irish Water today, before the legislation has even been enacted, what chance will they have after it passes when there is no provision for accountability in the Bill? The Minister of State can give all the commitments he likes but he knows that unless it is in black and white, in legislation, it will not happen. The Minister of State also knows that were it not for the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, many of the scandals in our health system would never have been exposed. They were not exposed through parliamentary questions because one cannot get answers to such questions. They were not exposed through questioning by Oireachtas committee members because answers were not forthcoming at committee meetings either. The Minister of State used the freedom of information tool very effectively. He was one of the most competent members of the Opposition in the last Dáil because of his ability to use that particular tool. We should, as a basic right, ensure that it is written into legislation that Irish Water has to answer questions, whether those questions are from Clare County Council, Roscommon County Council or any other council. Someone must be answerable for the fact that the people of Castlerea, Boyle and south Roscommon cannot drink their water but could, after this legislation is enacted, be charged for that undrinkable water. The Minister of State will stand up, no doubt, and say he intends to issue a directive to Irish Water but if it is his intention to do so, he should put it into the legislation. That is the only way communities in Ireland will be assured of a decent water supply. It is the one gun that can be put to the head of Irish Water - if it does not sort out water supply problems, it will not get paid. It is the only way that I can ensure that the people in my county can drink the water that is coming through their taps. The people of Castlerea have had to tolerate poor water quality for the last three years. Many more will have to tolerate it for a minimum of 12 months and it is simply not good enough. Some 90% of the people in this country who cannot drink the water from their taps are living in my home county. It is not good enough that legislation will be enacted here that could lead to them being charged for that water even though they cannot even use it to brush their teeth.
I support Deputy Naughten's amendment. I acknowledge the work the Minister of State has done in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. He is a hard working, honest individual and as Deputy Naughten pointed out, when he was in opposition he elicited an enormous amount of information from statutory bodies, not because of them but in spite of them. That must be acknowledged but, having said that, this legislation epitomises everything that is wrong with our political system. I deeply regret that individual Members and political parties have chosen to boycott this debate but I understand why they have done so. I have sought debating time to discuss the Seanad referendum result, which has not happened. I have also called for a debate on the Smithwick tribunal report relating to alleged collusion between members of the Garda Síochána and terrorist groups. The tribunal lasted for almost decade but its final report has not been discussed in this Chamber yet. It is a farce.
One of the biggest political issues confronting me at the moment is that of pylons and EirGrid. When I attend public meetings on the issue, public representatives, both local and national, stand up and say they have no control, authority or power. They say the pylons should not be erected, that they do not agree with it but that the mechanism to allow it developed over a period of time. Here we are today, passing the very same type of legislation as that which allows EirGrid to determine how it supplies electricity. This Bill will take control and accountability away from elected representatives.
The basic principle of water charges is something which many Members of this House support. There has been much discussion about the idea of a free allowance per household, with the charge set at x, y or z. We are going to pass legislation today but no Member of this House will be able to tell any member of the public what the allowance or the charges will be. All we will be able to say is that the legislation has been passed, Irish Water exists and section 16 or section 17 gives the power to the Minister to formulate the charges but we do not know what they will be. Mark my words, this legislation is going to cause untold difficulty and hardship. Even in 20 years' time, we will not have 80% or 90% of households metered. Water metering was introduced in Britain a number of years ago but to date, the authorities there have not managed to install all of the meters required. We do not have access to high speed broadband in all parts of this country yet so I do not know how we will get all of the meters installed.
The main flaw in this legislation is that it is giving a blank cheque to the Minister and Irish Water. It is a pig in a poke and it is centralising authority. One of the big selling points for the recently introduced local property tax was that the moneys raised would go to local authorities to provide local services. What happened in reality was that €600 million was signed over from the local authorities to another central agency. No one has any control or power over this.
It is not satisfactory that while we are talking about better local government and introducing powers to make the Dáil more accountable, this Bill is handing power out of this Chamber and away from local authorities to an unaccountable body.
Another issue arises locally due to the increase in local authority rents. Deputy Naughten stated that if the water supply is not drinkable people should not pay. The same principle should apply to local authority houses. If work is in progress, houses are being renovated or a scheme has proven to be disastrous - as is the case in Glen Ding estate in Blessington - that should be taken into account. If the Minister or any staff member from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government were to go to Glen Ding estate in Blessington they would find scaffolding and plaster off the walls. I regret to say it is like the worst estate in Calcutta although it is only six or seven years old. Residents are being asked to pay rent and they face a rent increase. I urge the Minister of State to use his good offices to ensure that where there are difficulties with estates local authorities right across the country will not introduce rent increases until the problems are solved. If a local authority was inspecting a house for the RAS process or a health and safety officer was inspecting it for private rental the proprietor would be in front of the courts.
I was not present for the Second Stage debate but if I heard the statistic correctly, it was said that 90% of people nationally who have difficulty with drinking water are in Roscommon. I do not dispute that there is a major problem in Roscommon, as Deputy Naughten has outlined the position there. When I checked the relevant website in recent weeks I found that ten areas in Wicklow had boil-water notices. It is difficult to believe that 90% of people who have difficulty with drinking water come from Roscommon. I expect the range of people who have a problem with the quality of drinking water is far more extensive than that. That is one of the reasons I am in favour of the concept of having a national water authority - because it is clear that the system we have at the moment has not worked. However, we are putting a badly flawed concept in place today.
I will oppose the Bill not for populist reasons, because I believe in the principle of charging for the service, but because I do not agree with the lack of accountability that is inherent in the new system. If I meet someone in the street next week I will be able to say that we passed the legislation but I will not be able to inform him or her about the allowances or the charges. Even when the system is in place I will not have any remit and nor will locally elected representatives. When we fight election campaigns we urge people to elect a strong voice for Roscommon or for the Boyne Valley, yet when we come to the House we are absolutely powerless. Time and again we advocate the principle of giving power to unelected and unaccountable bodies. I am aware of how the water system works at the moment. Businesses do not have confidence in the concept of a meter outside their door. They do not know how to check it or how to turn it on or off. There is confusion about leaks. We will probably find that the standing charge will be greater than the usage charge.
One of the selling points of the legislation for people who support it is that we are paying for the water anyway, so let us have accountability and a proper and responsible use of the water supply. Could the Minister of State explain, in the event of a water charge being introduced, how people will be compensated, given that they are paying for the service already? Will there be a commensurate drop in income tax or will they pay for it on the double if no reduction is forthcoming? I would be happy to receive a note on the matter following the debate. It was stated that if the cost of providing water were allocated to each household the annual charge would be approximately €600 or €700. The information came to light during the debate in the Seanad. We owe it to the people who elected us to clarify the position. It is not right that we are expected to support a measure when we do not know what is involved and on which we have no assurance that in future we will be any better informed. That is totally unsatisfactory.
I lost the Fine Gael whip earlier this year due to my stance on an important piece of legislation. I have never been able to ascertain how the programme for Government was changed behind closed doors in spite of several parliamentary questions and requests for information. The issue was glossed over. It is not something in which the media or anyone else has a great interest but I feel it is a futile exercise coming to the House. I strongly support Deputy Naughten’s amendment.
I deeply regret that others have sought to boycott the Chamber. When we were in opposition we did it but the difficulty is that one has to come back at some stage. One cannot stay out forever. The legislation before the House is indicative of the lack of accountability. I take my hat off to the Minister of State, Deputy O’Dowd. He is one of the more accountable, responsible and apolitical Members of this House. He works for the common good. I feel for him because he must provide a front for this legislation, which epitomises everything that is bad in our system. Elected representatives will say in halls and houses in the future that the water services are out of their control and that Irish Water has the power. Today, we will sign off on another piece of legislation and the public will not be able to understand how it happened.
I thank the Deputies for their views, which are most welcome. While I do not necessarily agree with everything they said, it is important that they said it. I agree that the absence of Members who have been significant players in this economy and who are responsible for the arrival of the troika in the first place is regrettable. They marched their troops out and then they marched them in for a vote and then marched them out again. That does not make sense.
I accept the points made by the Deputies. I will deal specifically with Roscommon in the first part of my reply. As I have clarified, almost 90% of the population currently affected by boil-water notices are in Roscommon. In addition, information was provided in the note on the Burncourt and Fethard regional water supply scheme, which will address the issue of boil-water notices in south Tipperary. With regard to Roscommon, the key points are that in November 2013 the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, approved funding of €12 million for the construction of five new water treatment plants and one pumping station for the Arigna, Boyle-Ardcarne, Roscommon central and south Roscommon regional water supply schemes. In December, the Minister approved funding of €4 million for the construction of interconnecting pipework on the Boyle-Ardcarne and Arigna water supply schemes.
Issues have been raised about the Castlerea regional water scheme. Boil-water notices were issued in November 2009 and the HSE requested that they remain in place as a precautionary measure in February 2010. Cryptosporidium was found in the water supply. In November 2011 Roscommon County Council commissioned the installation of a UV disinfection system as an interim measure. The works were completed in April 2012 and the boil-water notice was subsequently lifted. In July 2012 Roscommon County Council took the decision to reinstate the boil-water notice as a precautionary measure as the water quality had deteriorated further and the system could not operate effectively outside a validated range. The long-term solution for the scheme is the installation of a full water treatment plant and the amalgamation of the scheme within the Castlerea urban water supply. The design review report was approved by the Department in April 2013 and the procurement of consultants to progress the project is under way.
As regards the Roscommon central regional water scheme, a boil-water notice was issued on 25 April 2013. Cryptosporidium was found in the water supply and illnesses were confirmed to the HSE. The installation of a temporary treatment system was identified as an interim solution. A package UV treatment plant was installed over a ten-week period. The final cost of the works was €430,055, and they were 75% funded by the small schemes programme 2013. The boil-water notice was removed on 9 August 2013 following completion of the works, clear tests on the water supply and no further cases of illness. The scheme has recently been approved for funding for a new water treatment plant under the four regional water supply schemes.
Regarding the Boyle-Ardcarne water scheme, a boil water notice was issued on 13 May as cryptosporidium had been found in the water supply and related illnesses had been confirmed by the Health Service Executive. The notice remains in place as a precautionary measure as there is no cryptosporidium barrier in place. A direction was issued by the Environmental Protection Agency to ensure a robust treatment scheme would be in place by August 2014. The scheme has recently been approved for funding as a new water treatment plant coming under the four regional water supply scheme projects. In addition, approval of the allocation of €4 million was granted for the construction of interconnecting pipeworks.
Regarding water supplies in south Roscommon, a boil water notice was issued on 24 October for supplies from the Killeglan source as cryptosporidium had been found in the water supply and related illnesses had been confirmed by the HSE. This is the first such incident confirmed for this water supply. It should be noted that both sources in the south Roscommon schemes are vulnerable and considered to be very high risk for cryptosporidium contamination. They have been added to the remedial action list.
The EPA has audited the supply and Roscommon County Council is awaiting its report. There is ongoing communication between the HSE and the council. A decision on how long the boil water notice will remain in place in advance of the new water treatment plant being commissioned has yet to be made.
Irish Water cannot be blamed for existing water quality problems, whether in County Roscommon, County Clare or wherever else.
They could be closer to the Minister of State’s home.
I accept that. Irish Water will be responsible for solving these water quality problems. Its water quality standards will be subject to supervision by the EPA. The drinking water regulations are being updated and the EPA will have powers to direct Uisce Éireann to take actions to protect drinking water supplies. Failure to comply will be an offence.
I will reflect on the issues raised and discuss them in the Department. I remind Members opposite that there are other legislative proposals to come. There is a commitment to provide for a free allowance for households in certain circumstances. The approach to setting charges will have to be approved by the energy regulator, but it will be fully transparent. The Commission for Energy Regulation is independent. It will receive the water charges plan which it will then publish and request observations on it. At the same time, it will perform due diligence on it.
The Minister has powers to direct Irish Water and the regulator to address circumstances such as those in County Roscommon. There should be no charges for anyone who does not have a water supply that he or she cannot consume without boiling.
The Minister recently approved funding for South Tipperary County Council to accept the most economically advantageous tender of over €12 million for the Burncourt and Fethard regional water schemes. As Deputy Mattie McGrath knows, the quality of water in both schemes does not meet current drinking water standards. There are boil-water notices in place for both schemes. The proposed works are designed to remedy these problems.
When will the contracts be signed?
The Minister has approved the allocation of funding. I am sure it is only a matter of time before the contracts are signed.
They should be signed before Irish Water takes over.
My Department will get back to the Deputy on that matter.
I thank the Minister of State for his reply. However, there is a slight error in the information with which he was provided. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government came to Roscommon in 2012 to announce funding for the water schemes in question. He announced them again in 2013. It does not make any difference who the Minister is in making the announcements. It is usual for six or seven announcements to be made over several years before something happens. Last year, there were 40 boil-water notices around the country. Next year and the year after, there will be other boil-water notices. The Minister has powers that can be - not shall be - used to ensure charges do not apply to consumers affected by these notices. The Minister of State said there should be no charge for someone who could not drink his or her water supply. I do not doubt his sincerity. However, this time next year this will still be an issue and he could be in the Cabinet or in some other Department and not giving a damn about Irish Water.
I hope I am not in the water cabinet.
The only way I will be assured on this matter is if the Minister answers the following three simple questions. Is he going to provide a legal exemption from charges for people who cannot drink their water supply - yes or no? Is he going to legally provide for an allowance for every person in order he or she can meet his or her basic daily water needs - yes or no? Is he going to legally ensure Irish Water will be accountable to public representatives in local authorities and Oireachtas Members - yes or no?
There are many other issues relating to pensions, rights and the transfer of responsibilities which, by right, we should be debating, but we cannot do so because of the way the Bill is being rammed through today. I know this is against the Minister of State’s own principles as a public representative and that if he were on this side of the House, he would be equally animated about this issue. As the Bill has been drafted, people who cannot drink their water supply will still be charged for it. There is no guarantee that the allowance will be enough to meet their basic needs. There is no guarantee that people will not be charged for flushing their toilets. Neither is there a guarantee that Irish Water will answer legitimate questions from public representatives, be they county councillors or Deputies. There are also issues relating to pensions, rights and the transfer of responsibilities, significant issues which have been raised by staff and the local authorities.
The difficulty is that local authorities are asking Irish Water and the Department legitimate questions, but the Minister and the Minister of State cannot answer them. This Bill is being dealt with today because, according to the Minister of State's own officials, it has been an extremely complex piece of legislation, yet it can be rammed through here in a couple of hours without being properly debated.
I have given four legitimate reasons for not putting this Bill through today. I urge the Minister of State, even at the 11th hour, to bring forward a single amendment to change the date from 1 January to 1 July and let us have a proper debate here. Let us deal with these issues and let us ensure that the Bill that is brought before the House is something over which we can all stand.
I am delighted to speak on this Bill and I thank the Minister of State for the Christmas present that he gave out in his speech for the people of south Tipperary. Unfortunately, it is not a Christmas present and it has been delivered several Christmases before now. In fact, that money has been announced and announced and announced since 1988. When is the contract? We will welcome the Minister - I call him Big Phil - down to Tipperary to sign that contract to install the facility. We will even give him a hand because we have to get it before it goes into Irish Water.
I fundamentally disagree with the whole concept of Irish Water. The only thing I like about it is the name, Uisce Éireann. Other than that, we are going into the unknown and into oblivion. As far as I can see, it is a rest home for former county managers. There are already three of them in the agency. They are retired and on pensions and now they have moved to Irish Water, and many more will follow. There is no transparency at all to it.
Why are people in my county on boil notice for seven or eight years? They are going to be billed for water and will be expected to pay it as that it what is in the legislation. The Minister of State might be in a different Department but we will be left with this situation. These people will not pay. Why should they pay for water that they cannot drink? I know that somebody brought samples in here today. Skeheenarinky National School is one of the oldest primary schools in the country, and it is on boil water notice. Why is that school expected to pay? The whole water infrastructure has been hijacked and sold off. It will go into private hands and we will be like Bord Gáis, with contractors who are not up to scratch and we will suffer for that. It is just like the HSE and many other things we set up, with no accountability.
I want to pay tribute to the water staff in South Tipperary County Council, especially the caretakers, who know where every stopcock and pipe is. These new lads will not know where to find the reservoirs, not to mind a set of pipes. Local knowledge is vital. Under this memorandum of understanding, the Government is transferring ownership to Uisce Éireann. It is a lethal weapon. Like Deputy Naughten, I appeal to the Minister of State to put this off. I know the Minister cannot find reverse gear, but he reversed over the septic tanks issue. The Government made a show of the whole country and made a show of itself. Now only 29 tanks are being inspected in Tipperary, even though the Minister frightened the life out of people and told them they would not get a grant.
It was Deputy McGrath who frightened the life out of them.
However, now only 29 people can apply for the grant if they fail the inspection. That was the biggest con job ever, and this is another one. The Government is spinning, spinning and spinning.
When I was a boy walking home from school, I could see the great visionaries who came together to provide group water schemes in rural areas. They do not know what will happen to their scheme now. They pioneered the scheme, drew down the grants, collected money, did the work and maintained it since. Now they are in uncharted waters - pardon the pun - with this Bill and do not know what will happen.
Will there be any transparency and accountability? I have spoken to many staff in the local authorities and they do not have a clue. The biggest fear for staff in the service in south Tipperary is whether this will be signed before 1 January. If it goes into the unknown, the Minister of State will be here announcing it again in four years, because this has been announced by previous Governments as well. I announced it myself once or twice, but I learned from my mistake not to announce the granting of money when nothing happens. We want to see the excavators on the ground the pipe laying being carried out.
We are seeing some remedial work in the Fethard area, which is welcome. The number of burst pipes is unreal, but at least there were local contacts that we could call. Will we get through now to answering machines like when we call the HSE? Who are we going to get the information from? As far as I can see, the Government wants to get water for Dublin from the country and to hell with those outside the Pale.
I appeal to the Minister of State to back off from this. It is not properly thought out. The people who drafted it obviously had a difficult task, but it is not reflecting the views and the needs of the people. People who are farming in my area cannot use the water because it would fail every test. Businesses cannot use it because it is unfit for consumption - they are paying for it, yet they cannot get money to sink wells. It is an awful situation, but it is not all the Minister of State's fault as this is ongoing. I lay a lot of the blame at the door of the Department and the lethargic efforts it made over the years to deal with these issues. We commission a consultant's report, send it back down to the council after six months, get another consultant's report and send it back again. It is a merry-go-round and a money machine for consultants. It has been hijacked by consultant after consultant. Uisce Éireann seems to be a rest home for retired county managers, some of them with a chequered history as well. There will be more of them in the agency. It is more jobs for the boys; another CRC as far as I can see. We need honesty, openness and transparency and we need the public to have water to shower, wash and drink. That is a basic human right and they have been denied that for years. I appeal to the Minister of State to back off from this, and to give me a date for the turning of the sod and the contract. I will provide the shovel and even the JCB if necessary.
And the photographer.
I will do anything to get it started before it goes into Irish Water. I am not lobbying for work. This is voluntary. I would do anything to oblige the Minister, Deputy Hogan, on this issue.
We all acknowledge the under-investment in water and sewerage over a long number of years. In my earlier contribution, I did not mention the Minister, but the Dunlavin scheme costing €5 million and the Ballyconnell scheme costing €200,000 would not have taken place only for his direct intervention. I would like to acknowledge that, but it still does not exonerate people from the principle of this Bill and the way the legislation is being carried out.
I disagree with the concept of a boycott by the new troika consisting of the Technical Group, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin. They did not get elected to boycott the Parliament.
They are frustrated.
I appreciate the frustration. I have suffered a lot of it over the last few months when I was not able to elicit information or get explanations as to why certain things happened. I pointed that out earlier, but I did not get elected to carry out stunts. If people want to carry out stunts, they can go to the Gaiety Theatre, the Abbey Theatre, or the window at the bottom of Grafton Street that is hosting Joe Duffy's show.
He would not be here.
Well, wherever. They should be down with the successor of my own townsman, the late Dice Man.
We are leaving here today and we do not know either the charge or the allowance. Deputy Naughten has sought certain assurances. When calculating that allowance, certain consideration should be given to families that have members with disabilities. It should not be a simple head count, but should depend on the categorisation of people. If people are affected with a disability, a certain allowance should be made for that. The issue has been raised with me.
In ten or 20 years' time, this country will not be metered. I see Deputy Bannon up there in the back benches. He is a man with his finger on the pulse and is in touch with his people. I can guarantee that by this time next year, he will have spent several nights in the Marquee in Drumlish trying to explain to his constituents how these charges came in. He will explain that he had no role in it, that he has no power, and that he did not know that this was going to happen. We are signing over power to an unaccountable body. Let us leave out unelected; it is unaccountable. We are the people responsible for doing it. The Deputy has a big issue in his constituency with wind turbines, but we are doing the exact same thing, writing the same script for another body with the same principle. We will go back to our constituents and bemoan the fact that it has happened, yet here we are participating in it.
This legislation is deeply flawed. It is symptomatic of the flaws in this House and in our democratic process. The Dáil is not making the Government accountable. This Government pays scant regard to the will of the Dáil. One of the difficulties of having a large majority is that the Dáil has become a rubber stamp. I previously mentioned the Smithwick tribunal report and the debate on the Seanad referendum. Nothing has happened on them. It falls on deaf ears. I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for his indulgence. This legislation will cause trouble for a long time due to the very clear and obvious flaws that have been pointed out here today.
I am somewhat amused at the previous contributions, particularly that of Deputy Mattie McGrath, who spoke at length about the current failings of our water supply services around the country. That is not the fault of Irish Water but of the current administrative structure we have for delivering water through local authorities. I would be the first to accept that local authorities are in a rather invidious position. Because of their under-funding over a long period of time they have had all the blame and none of the gain. They do not control their own destiny in terms of putting in place proper financing for critical infrastructure. The irony is entirely lost on Deputy Mattie McGrath who railed against control in the area of septic tanks. Many of the boil notices are because of faecal contamination around the country. One of the reasons for faecal contamination is because of the proximity of sources to septic tanks that are not functioning properly. Deputy Mattie McGrath cannot have it both ways.
There are legitimate issues about boil notices and liability for charges. We cannot charge for a product that is not up to standard for consumption. It would be preferable if that were in the legislation. It is critical that the Minister state categorically on the record of the Dáil that it is the legislative intent of this that there be no charge for water that is on a boil notice and is unfit for human consumption. That must be unequivocally clear. It is a regrettable flaw in the legislation that that is not categorically stated.
Passing legislation in this rushed fashion is something for which we have paid the price relatively recently in the context of the property charge. That legislation was rushed through this day last year and during the year we found flaws in it. We keep repeating the mistakes of the past. It is Christmas week and we said Irish Water would be operational on 1 January 2014. We create artificial deadlines for ourselves and make bad law. It is an issue.
Recently I had occasion to telephone Cork County Council's out of hours service to report a break in water supply in my constituency. A recorded message on the answering machine said customers calling about the discolouration of the water supply in the Douglas area should run their taps for a considerable period before consuming the water. That is not a boil notice but to advise people on water meters, the purpose of which is to conserve and charge, to keep their taps running for a while is ludicrous. Obviously, that is not an Irish Water situation but Irish Water will have to be flexible in its response to discolouration and boil notices. We cannot charge for a service we cannot stand over. When the Minister gets an opportunity to reply to this section and conclude the debate he must clearly state that. Regrettably, the legislation is flawed in some respects and we are working to an artificial deadline.
The Minister will reply. Deputies must be brief because I must put the question at 3.40 p.m.
I am not overly enamoured of the fact that we have rushed through this important piece of legislation that affects every county, townland and householder in the country. It is in everybody's interest that we have a level of professionalism in the water services sector which would ensure we meet EU drinking water standards and quality. It is important that this be complied with at all times.
My concern on reading this Bill is that it is paving the way for the future privatisation of Ireland's water supply. We sell off assets from time to time and in recent times we have sold off a number of our assets. As a result of the sale of Eircom there are some rural areas the length and breadth of this country that have no broadband and will not see it in the foreseeable future because there is no interest and it is not profitable to those companies to deliver broadband to those rural areas. I have highlighted this issue. I am fearful that this could be the case with a company like Irish Water, which will be in it for big bucks at the end of the day.
The people who tramped the roads in the 1950s and 1960s and set up voluntary group water schemes played a very significant role in the development of Ireland. When they established a group water scheme they employed local people to administer and develop it and lay the water mains etc. They tied in with the committees and took great interest in the development of a particular area. In my county and the surrounding north Leinster counties we employ contractors from Northern Ireland and elsewhere to upgrade the water supply with no job opportunities for local people. I am fearful that this work can be tendered and somebody in France, Italy or elsewhere might get a contract for the improvement of the water supply, to the detriment of the local population and local employment opportunities.
All politics is local and I held the chair of four group water schemes in my county over the years. I set them up, walked the roads, filled in the GW41 and GW41A forms and submitted them to the Department, and drew down the grants etc. They were prudent operations. Some of the good people who were trustees at that time have passed on. It is important that we acknowledge their contribution to the water infrastructure in this country.
The importance of water conservation cannot be overstated, especially as it was recently estimated that up to 47% of all water is unaccounted for. We cannot stand idly by and neglect to deal with this problem. When water is produced, cleaned, etc., somebody must pay for it. I hope this problem will be tackled by Irish Water. This is important. A nationwide water conservation programme would be money very well spent. Could the Minister indicate if we have guaranteed this programme will be expanded and how successful it will be under Irish Water? Areas of rural Ireland could be neglected and may not get the same attention as they get under the private group water schemes.
Can the Minister show his good faith on this issue by indicating that from 1 January all commercial premises that have a boil water notice will not be charged for water?
I would like to give my one-minute reply. I have heard everything that has been said here. It is very important that we on this side of the House reflect on what Deputy Naughten has said on those issues. I see him smiling.
Through this legislation, the Minister has and will have the power to direct both the CER and Irish Water, if appropriate, to use this power and, where supplies are subject to restrictions, to ensure that customers are properly protected and compensated where necessary. Also, there will be further legislation in the House next year in this regard. Most importantly, there will be no domestic charges imposed until January 2015.
Notwithstanding all the concerns, which I acknowledge, we will have time to address a number of the issues and to clarify other outstanding issues in the legislation that is to come. The issues can be discussed before Oireachtas committees with both the Minister and myself and with representatives from Irish Water and the Regulator.
As it is now 3.40 p.m., I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That in respect of each of the sections undisposed of, the section is hereby agreed in Committee, the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed." Is that agreed?
Question put.
The Dáil divided by electronic means.
I think it is appropriate, given the fact Labour Party Deputies, Deputy McNamara in particular, gave out about the Bill earlier and may have missed the vote that they are given another opportunity. As a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.
As Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh is a teller, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.
4 o'clock
Question again put: "That in respect of each of the sections undisposed of, the section is hereby agreed in Committee, the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 40.
Tá
- Bannon, James.
- Breen, Pat.
- Burton, Joan.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Costello, Joe.
- Creed, Michael.
- Deasy, John.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Ferris, Anne.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Flanagan, Terence.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lyons, John.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McHugh, Joe.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Neville, Dan.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Dowd, Fergus.
- O'Mahony, John.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reilly, James.
- Ring, Michael.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sherlock, Sean.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Varadkar, Leo.
- Wall, Jack.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Stephen S.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Higgins, Joe.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Nulty, Patrick.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Ross, Shane.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Dara Calleary.
Question declared carried.