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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Jan 2014

Vol. 828 No. 2

Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill 2013: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the opportunity to resume my contribution to the debate on this important legislation. I also welcome the Bill and many of the proposals in it. It is important that industrial development in this country is taken seriously. The past five or six years have been difficult for us and we need to up our game. For this reason, I welcome this legislation.

I referred earlier to the crisis in youth unemployment in this State and across the European Union, in respect of which the Government needs to wake up and face the reality. I will deal further with this issue later in my contribution. Small and medium-sized businesses need our help and can no longer be ignored. I have been concerned, particularly in recent days, about the level of complacency around this issue. These issues must be addressed head on. We must support the people on the ground and address the issues affecting them.

The Bill provides for the dissolution of Forfás, which since its establishment in 1994 has been Ireland's policy advisory board for enterprise, trade, science, technology and innovation. It also provides for the transfer of certain functions of Forfás to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and the Health and Safety Authority.

It is important when dealing with issues such as innovation and job creation for young people that targets and objectives are set. We have many talented people in this State, many of whom have brilliant ideas. These people need to be nurtured and developed rather than allowed to emigrate to places like Australia, America, Canada and so on. The emphasis of Government over the next couple of months must be on addressing the youth unemployment issue. The youth unemployment rate in Ireland began to rise sharply in 2007. Between 2007 and 2009, it rose from 9.1% to 24% and increased steadily to 30.4% in 2012. The youth unemployment rate in the EU 28 also rose during this period but at a slower rate and from a higher base. It rose from 15.8% to 20.2% between 2007 and 2009 and to 23% in 2012. The rate of youth unemployment in Ireland remained high during 2013 at between 27.6% and 28.5%, with the latest figure for September 2013 being 28%. The Irish rate represents approximately 60,000 young people. The EU rate for September 2013 was 23.5%, which represents approximately 5.6 million young people. This means there are 60,000 young people in this State and 5.6 million young people across the European Union who need support. These are the generation of people we need to get into the job market in order that they can make their contributions and pay their taxes, thereby providing us with the revenue to develop services. I ask that the Minister of State take on board my proposals in relation to this legislation.

Long-term unemployment is another concern. However, it is less prevalent among young people than it is among the general population.

That is something we must focus on as well. In the fourth quarter of 2012, of those young people who were unemployed, over two fifths had been unemployed for one year or longer. By the second quarter of 2013 the figure had fallen to just over one in three. By comparison, among those aged 25 or over, in the second quarter of 2013 almost two in three were classified as long-term unemployed.

Recent Irish research has indicated that the risk factors for young unemployed people becoming long-term unemployed include previous experience of being unemployed for over 12 months; literacy and numeracy problems; no formal education; and living in a suburban area. We should consider the causes within the 60,000 figure as well. The issues of numeracy and literacy keep popping up. If we lose a young generation these young people will cost us a good deal of money in the end and we will destroy many young lives and stop people from contributing to society and the country. The important or key thing is early education. If young children are coming through with literacy and numeracy problems we must intervene at junior infants. There is no use in doing it in sixth class when they are 12 or 13 years of age. Much of the damage is done by then and many of those children end up in trouble. It is important to consider these issues as well.

When we are examining the youth unemployment figures it is important to recognise that there are young people at risk. These are the people we should target for jobs. For example, let us consider the criminal justice sector. Many people do not know it, but it is estimated that over 5,000 young people will come in contact with Garda youth diversion projects in 2014, a high figure. These are projects to try to help young people from getting involved in crime. Let us consider the figures. I note the Minister for Justice and Equality seems to have been clapping himself on the back in recent days over crime figures and so on. However, the reality is that if there are 5,000 young people coming in contact with Garda youth services, then there is an issue that must be identified.

By the end of December 2013 Operation Fiacla had led to the arrest of 7,610 persons while 4,342 persons have been charged as a consequence. There is an issue with crime and dysfunctional sections of Irish society and we need to deal with that. If the Government does not deal with these issues, then there is no point in coming to the House with legislation or talking about economic and industrial development and changing the system. Naturally, this legislation is positive and the Minister's decision to integrate Forfás into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has resulted in the reduction of board membership since 2012.

Let us consider the role the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. It is responsible for enterprise policy in Ireland. Some excellent ideas have come forward and I welcome that. There are some excellent staff members in the Department who have made a major contribution. However, it is important to consider the mission of the Department now and again. The mission of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is to support the creation of good jobs by promoting the development of a competitive business environment in which enterprises will operate to high standards and grow in sustainable markets. That is an objective and mission every Member should support. However, we must also ensure that when we are referring to good jobs we do not include young people who are being exploited in low-paid jobs. Some are not getting any money and we have seen examples of this in recent days.

Furthermore, we must deal with the problems of enterprises and give them a chance to become competitive. A man was in my constituency office yesterday morning who runs a small business whose commercial rates went up by 177%. This is a small business on the northside of Dublin. This man is pulling his hair out over the costs because he wants to employ more people. Some of these businesses may only employ between three and five people, but that is a major contribution to a local community. If we give three or five people a job then we make a major contribution to the economy. It is well and good to look at the big stars coming in and big announcements, like the announcement in Cork recently. I wish them well and I put it to the Minister of State that this is a positive development. However, we must not forget the small people and businesses that need our support and that are being squeezed. They have created thousands of jobs.

Let us dig further into the legislation. Section 3 provides that any expenses incurred in the administration of the Act shall be paid out of moneys paid by the Oireachtas. However, the good news is there are no costs to the Exchequer arising out of these proposals, something I welcome. This is important because we have been talking about efficiencies and saving money and we should be sensible about these things.

Sections 18 and 19 transfer the functions of Forfás to Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and the Minister. The sections will come into operation on the dissolution day. I note one point about Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, in fairness to them. I join my colleagues in paying tribute to them for the significant work they have done. They have made a major and positive contribution to the economic development of the country. The people in Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and the civil servants in the Department have made a fairly major contribution to the economic development of the country and we should not be afraid to say as much.

Several functions conferred on Forfás will be assigned to Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. The Bill will transfer these functions to Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland and that is a positive development.

Since I am discussing the economy and the matter of developing enterprise and innovation, I encourage the Minister to give a little extra focus to the small and medium-sized enterprise sector and the issue of youth unemployment. Only three countries, Germany, Netherlands and Austria, had a youth unemployment rate below 10% in 2012. Ireland was one of seven countries, including Spain and Greece, which had a youth unemployment rate over 30% in 2012. The figures speak for themselves. We need to wake up, smell the coffee and respond to youth unemployment.

I accept the fact that there is a good deal of talk on youth unemployment but we need to get away from the talk and come up with some ideas. The European Union has been discussing youth unemployment since the late 1990s. It has come up with some employment strategies. However, we need to look effectively at these and determine whether they are working. We should examine how to use the European Social Fund and Structural Funds to target specific youth employment measures. We should focus on the fast-tracking of the youth employment initiative, which has a new focus and a budget of €6 billion for 2014 and 2015. We must ensure that money is used between 2014 and 2015. There has been a re-launch of the joint youth employment action teams in member states experiencing high rates of youth unemployment. However, the bottom line is that as well as training and education we have to be about creating jobs.

I accept that many of the policies of the Government have focused on addressing the needs and capacities of employers to create stable employment opportunities for young people and to deal with the issue of taking on young employees. We should examine this and determine whether we can deal strongly and sensibly in this area. The State will supplement wages of young people and reduce employer costs associated with employing young people, a matter I referred to earlier in my contribution. It dedicates particular funds for programmes which support youth unemployment, for example, programmes which match local training programmes and local employer demands, which make employment protection legislation more flexible, and which, in some cases, emphasise self-employment and entrepreneurship among young people. These are things we need to examine closely.

Let us dig further into the legislation on the transfer of Forfás. We need to be conscious of the staff issue because that is important. Section 24 provides for the remaining staff of Forfás to be appointed to unestablished positions in the Civil Service. The terms and condition of service relating to remuneration and superannuation can be no less favourable than those applying before the transfer. Section 24 is important. Section 25 provides that the superannuation schemes administered by Forfás prior to dissolution will continue in force as if made by the Minister. Section 14 provides that Forfás staff transferring to the National Standards Authority of Ireland must be on terms of superannuation no less favourable than those applying before the transfer. Many of the staff have done excellent work in recent years especially at this difficult time in our economic history.

Forfás has approximately 90 employees. The staff of the organisation will be affected in that they will become staff of the Department and other bodies. Staff transferring to the Department will do so either as civil servants or fixed-term employees, as appropriate.

It is important in considering this Bill to focus on the key issues I have outlined. We have a major problem in this country in terms of youth unemployment, as well as a broader problem of long-term unemployment and emigration. We need radical and fresh ideas to tackle these problems. Reform of public services is essential, but it must be done in a positive and constructive way. We should not be afraid of returning to the ethos of public service in the true sense of serving the public. This legislation is relevant to that agenda.

I take the opportunity to pay tribute to the people who work hard to bring jobs into this country and develop the small business sector. We need factories and the jobs they supply, but we also need development. We have many people with new ideas in this country, including in Howth, Coolock, Darndale, Marino, Killester, Clontarf, Beaumont and right across the north side of Dublin, as Deputy Broughan well knows. They are a very talented group of people.

The Deputy is surely not forgetting Donnycarney.

I reserve a special mention for Donnycarney. There are young people with excellent potential throughout this city and this country. We must ensure they have opportunities to avail of employment and thereby secure the future of the State. If we get them on board, they will pay their taxes and look after our senior citizens. The pensions issue will thereby become null and void.

I welcome the debate on this legislation. Any effective type of reform is deserving of support. I urge the Minister of State to take every opportunity for creating employment and implementing feasible new ideas, particularly from young people. The Government must place a special focus on youth unemployment and work to tackle the huge crisis we are facing in that regard. It is not acceptable that up to 30% of young people in this country are out of work, and 6.5 million across the European Union. I hope the Minister of State will take on board the issues I have raised.

The Minister of State, in outlining the technical nature of this Bill, made the important point that these proposals cannot be seen in isolation but as part of a broader range of policy development initiatives. There is no doubt that the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has a significant job of work in terms of legislation to be brought forward. We discussed some of this workload last week during the question and answer session with the Minister of State regarding collective bargaining, workplace relations and the ongoing delays in that regard.

While we do not oppose the Bill in principle, we look forward to examining its provisions, some of which are very technical in nature, in more detail on Committee Stage. The Bill proposes to dissolve Forfás and assign powers to agencies such as Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish National Accreditation Board to function as employers in their own right, including, for example, the capacity to establish superannuation schemes. As it stands, Forfás is the statutory employer. In this context, we welcome the commitment that terms and conditions of employment will transfer over, which is reassuring for personnel within the organisation.

The question of the functions of Forfás is something I intend to examine in detail on Committee Stage. The Minister of State referred to the importance of retaining the capacity for independent critical analysis which the agency provided. Now that it is being subsumed into the Department and coming under the remit of the Minister - some non-policy functions will transfer to other agencies but, in the main, it will be amalgamated into the Department - it is very important that the independent character of its operations is maintained. We must avoid a situation where a groupthink mentality prevails. I am confident the Minister of State will do everything, from his own personal and political point of view, to ensure that does not happen.

The Bill provides for a strategic policy division within the Department to take over Forfás's role in providing independent research and analysis. Will this division have the power to set out its own research programme? Will all of the reports coming from the unit be made public? Or will they be for the Minister's eyes only, with publication taking place at his discretion? As the Minister of State knows from his time on the other side of the Chamber, in order for Opposition Deputies to fulfil their role in holding the Government to account, providing critical analysis of policy when such is required and acknowledging when good work is being done, it is important that they have access to all available information and the latest research findings. I am seeking an assurance that there will be no question of reports that are critical of Government policy being shelved by the Department. My concern in this regard is not specific to the current Government but applies irrespective of which parties are in government and whoever the Minister might be. After all, the Minister will have ultimate control over the strategic policy division. It is all well and good for the Minister of State to assure us that Forfás's function in providing independent critical analysis is safeguarded, but that might not always be the case. We do not know who will be in his chair in five or ten years time.

The opening sections of the Bill give powers to agencies such as Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, as I have said, to become employers in their own right, including the capacity to hire staff. These provisions will be subject to approval by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, which is reasonable. However, the Minister of State knows as well as I do the realities of the current economic situation. He indicated in his opening statement that these proposals do not represent a cost-saving measure and I accept his word in that regard. He did indicate there would be savings in the long term, which is welcome. However, reforms of this type should never be initiated merely on the basis of potential cost savings. With that proviso in mind, I accept the Minister of State's position that these proposals represent a policy decision to develop efforts in regard to job creation.

We have seen leaked reports from Enterprise Ireland on the impact of reductions in staffing levels on its ability to carry out its functions. IDA Ireland had a good year in 2013, for which it should be commended. It did not, however, achieve all of its targets, including the undertaking to ensure 50% of investment would go outside the main urban areas of Cork and Dublin. Can the Minister of State confirm that the failure to meet this particular target was not down to a resourcing issue? There is no point in legislation which gives organisations such as Enterprise Ireland the capacity to become employers in their own right if the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is not prepared to loosen the purse strings to accommodate that. If additional recruitment is needed to allow organisations such as Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland to work at the optimum level, then the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform must be open to it. I presume the Minister of State has been lobbying the Minister, Deputy Howlin, on these issues.

This Bill contains good proposals which we intend to support. As I said, however, we might well bring forward amendments on Committee Stage. We look forward to examining some of the provisions in more detail, particularly in respect of the strategic policy division and how it will work in practice. It sounds great in theory but we need to go through the nuts and bolts of what is proposed and how it will work in reality.

I look forward to a robust debate on Committee Stage.

The next speaking slot is being shared by Deputies English, Jim Daly and Kyne.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important legislation, the Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill 2013, which allows us to reflect on efforts relating to job creation within the economy and the important role of research, development and innovation in driving progress in this regard. Although there has not been a great deal of shouting and roaring about it, this is an important Bill. There has been a great deal of focus on reform in the media of late, and rightly so. If we are not prepared to advocate reform, we should not be in public life or Members of this Parliament. While some people like to discuss reform in abstract terms, those of us in government must get our hands dirty in the context of implementing such reform. The Bill involves important reform but that reform is not the kind which garners headlines. One will not see reports about it on the front pages of newspapers or on television news programmes because it is not sufficiently striking. However, this legislation is going to be extremely effective.

Reform can take time to achieve. When it came to office, the Government outlined proposals for Forfás to be subsumed into the Department and in respect of bringing other agencies such as IDA Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland, etc. back into a central position. One of Fine Gael's and the Labour Party's key campaign pledges during the general election related to the need to get rid of quangos and streamline government. The introduction of this Bill marks the fulfilment of another election promise. It is important the House and our friends in the media should note this because it is both good news and a further step on the road to reform. Slowly but surely, the Government is making progress in respect of the changes it wishes to make. Much of the reform relates to how Departments are run, how we do business and how to streamline the decision-making process in the context of the analysis and research that is carried out. I hope that when it is subsumed into the Department, Forfás will play a central role in driving and informing the decision-making process employed by the Ministers and their officials.

It is important to state that the Government is not eliminating Forfás just for the sake of doing so. Rather, it is attempting to strengthen the Department and ensure it will be more proactive in the context of planning for the future, facilitating job creation and addressing any skills shortages or meeting any demands which might arise in the future. What Forfás has always done is carry out analysis and research in order to try to drive the decision-making process, highlight areas in respect of which adaptation is necessary and identify developments for which we must be ready and any problems which might arise.

The subsuming of Forfás back into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is a very positive development. In that context, a positive opportunity exists for solid scientific research, development and innovation to lead the decision-making process of the Department. I hope the amalgamation will be seen in that spirit. At its meeting yesterday, the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation engaged in a brief discussion on this matter with the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. John Murphy, Mr. Martin Shanahan, CEO of Forfás, and a number of key staff in the context of Action Plan for Jobs and the role the Department played during Ireland's Presidency of the EU last year. There is a very good relationship between the staff of Forfás and that of the Department. I am of the view that the amalgamation will be seen in the right spirit and that the staff of Forfás will be listened to. A number of the members of the committee referred to the need to protect the research budget of Forfás and to ensure it will not be diverted elsewhere when the amalgamation has been completed. The Minister of State has responsibility for research so I know I am directing my comments to the right person. It is important the research budget is ring-fenced and proper analysis and research continues to be carried out. A commitment in this regard was provided at yesterday's meeting and I hope the analysis and research will continue in the years ahead.

The work Forfás does is very important for and useful to many of those who operated in industry and business. In addition, it managed to engage the services of large numbers of experts and is a major player in expert review groups detailed with examining different aspects of legislation and enterprise policy. This engagement with other stakeholders must be built on in the future. I hope the agency's focus on research, development and innovation will drive the policies of the Department. I am sure the Minister, Deputy Bruton, the Ministers of State, Deputies Perry and Sherlock, and the staff of the Department will work with those from the agency and I trust that the correct approach will be taken.

The lack of jobs and the need to generate employment quite rightly dominated the agenda relating to the 2011 general election campaign. Creating job opportunities remains the Government's top priority. The various changes for which the Bill provides relate to getting the Department to a better place in order that it might proactively encourage the creation of further jobs and the development of a stronger, more streamlined and less bureaucratic enterprise environment. I might mention Action Plan for Jobs in this regard, the purpose of which is to try to foster the environment necessary to facilitate the creation of jobs. It is often stated that Governments do not create jobs. Regardless of whether that is the case, they certainly create the environment in which jobs can be generated and foster the conditions which make it possible for enterprise to thrive. The reforms in the Bill relate to changing both the Department and the various agencies for which it has responsibility in order that they might work together in a more streamlined and cost-effective way and deliver results.

Others might not agree but I am of the view we have made good progress in respect of job creation. Unemployment levels have decreased from of 15.1% to 12.4% in the past two years. That is a step in the right direction. Getting below 13% was a major achievement but ensuring the figure continues to decrease each month is key to restoring confidence and rebuilding hope among members of the public.

The fact that people are emigrating by the planeload has been of assistance.

I have not concluded my remarks and I intend to address that matter. No one should deny or try to hide the fact that planeloads of people are emigrating. Let us get real. It was never going to be possible to replace upwards of 400,000 jobs overnight. Replacing those jobs was always going to take a few of years. However, it was still necessary for us to set out our plans and attempt to make serious inroads into dealing with the problem. Action Plan for Jobs is being driven forward by the Taoiseach, the Department and Forfás - Mr. Shanahan is doing a great job in this regard - in order that we might reduce unemployment levels. It is going to take three or four years to bring job creation numbers back up to previous levels and there is going to be emigration. As stated, we should never try to deny or hide that. It must be remembered, however, that an additional 58,000 people obtained employment in the past year. The figures have not been massaged in this regard and those people are occupying real extra jobs that have been created.

When one discusses this matter with people, all they want to be told is that there is hope for the country. The only way to prove there is such hope is to highlight the figures relating to net new jobs. Those figures prove we are making inroads. It will take a couple of years to address this matter but we must give people hope. Those in opposition can question what we are doing but they should not take away people's hope.

That is what those in government did.

There is a need for good news stories. When the Government assumed office in 2011, some 7,000 jobs were being lost each month. The position has been reversed and 5,000 jobs are being created every month. That is a net turnaround of 12,000. A great deal of work has been done, not just by the Government but by people throughout the country, to achieve this reversal. It must be acknowledged that the private sector is creating most of the jobs in question. All we can do is try to assist those in the private sector and make it easier for them to create employment. It is often stated that some of the measures in Action Plan for Jobs are very simple in nature. That is the case but we need to get back to basics. For too long people in this country thought they were making money by selling houses to each other and by developing land. Neither of these activities is enterprise-driven and, as a result, there was a need to return to basics. There have already been two action plans for jobs and there is one more on the way. Each of the plans to date has contained a couple of hundred measures, some of which have proven to be very important and have cost a great deal of money. Those measures have been responsible for driving major change. Many of the other measures or actions have been quite basic in nature but if they are not implemented and if all the boxes are not ticked, business development will be hindered. Everything in the action plans must be put in place to ensure our economy returns to a point where it is enterprise-led and is capable of facilitating the creation of further jobs.

Activity in areas such as retail, construction and domestic banking must be returned to sustainable levels. Youth unemployment was referred to, in respect of which some progress has been made during the past year. That said, it is not acceptable that such high numbers of young people are either not in work or are not engaged with the system. When the budget was being introduced, there were many who criticised the cuts to jobseeker's benefit and allowance, etc. There were reasons for such cuts and not all of them related to the need to make cost savings. A case can be made to the effect that many young people do not engage with the system at all. In other words, they are not in employment or involved in education or training. That cannot be allowed to continue and if it is necessary to adopt a carrot-and-stick approach to remedy matters, then so be it. Most young people to whom one speaks indicate they want to be involved. The majority are trying to get involved but there are others who, for whatever reason, are not engaged with the system at all. There is a duty on us all to remedy this and to ensure they become engaged. I accept it will not be possible to give them all jobs immediately, but we must keep them close to the world of employment, namely, in training or education. If we do that, such people will be in a position to avail of job opportunities as they arise and will not be left behind.

The Pathways to Work document goes hand in hand with Action Plan for Jobs and both are driven by the Government. Forfás has also played a major role in driving these plans forward, especially Action Plan for Jobs. I thank Mr. Shanahan for the work his organisation has done in this regard. I have no doubt that said work will continue when Forfás becomes part of the Department.

While the Government is making positive strides in respect of job creation, it must never lose sight of those who, despite their best efforts, remain out of work. The most recent figures available, from quarter three of 2013, indicate that 280,000 people remain unemployed.

I am confident that all these people will benefit in 2014 as the Government's efforts are met with a recovering economy, an increase in consumer sentiment and the development of private sector employment opportunities. The Taoiseach and the Ministers are focused on the need to create jobs.

This Bill will help in the creation of an environment favourable to job creation. Like a previous speaker, I wish to speak for my own county. County Meath is in bad need of jobs as much as anywhere else. We must ensure that job creation is dispersed as best as possible. The first step is to attract companies into the country but it is important that every county gets a chance for job creation.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. Like my colleagues I commend the Government on bringing this Bill before the House. I commend the Government's achievements to date in addressing job creation which was identified post-election 2011 as the single greatest challenge. As Deputy English stated, we have moved from a situation where 7,000 jobs a month were being lost to a situation where 5,000 jobs are being created in the private sector. This is a welcome development and is a sign that many of the Government's efforts are paying dividends.

The Ministers and officials in the Department must find it very frustrating because their actions and efforts are never given much publicity. I am pleased to note that the fruits of their labours have been evident over the past 12 to 15 months by way of the announcement of new jobs.

I had a recent conversation with a very senior bank official who has international banking experience. I asked him about signs that the recession was coming to an end in the capital city and whether the boom would return to Dublin but not to Cork and my area of west Cork. He assured me that the history of recessions has shown that all recessions end first in the capital city and then reach the other cities and regions. I am pleased to note that his prophecy is being fulfilled here in Ireland, as shown by the recent announcements of job creation in the city of Cork. The boom is starting to happen and recovery is very evident in Cork. My ambition is to see that recovery moving into the regions into areas like west Cork.

For the past two years I have been a member of a committee in west Cork called the West Cork Jobs Initiative. The committee is comprised of employers with well-known brand names such as SouthWestern Services, Carbery Milk Products, Inchydoney Island Lodge and Spa, The Southern Star, Carbery Plastics, Rowa Pharmaceuticals, Keohane Readymix and a professor from UCC. The chief executive officers of those companies are assisting in devising policy to attract jobs into the west Cork region. We have identified a number of challenges such as infrastructural challenges. For example, the N71 needs to be upgraded but, regrettably, this was not done by the previous Government when the money was available. As our economy improves I hope this Government will prioritise the N71 upgrade so we can better develop job creation in west Cork.

The committee has identified that the future for the region lies in small and medium enterprises. We must ensure that proposed legislation is as favourable to the SME sector as to larger companies. I refer in particular to the Government's changes to legislation on redundancy payments. I agree it is not desirable to make it too easy for larger companies to outsource their work and let 300 or 400 people go while the Government pays the larger share of redundancy payments. The onus for payment has been transferred to the employer but this can cause problems for small and medium enterprises. Research undertaken by the West Cork Jobs Initiative shows that many SME employers employing two to five people are fearful of employing additional staff. While the economy is improving they have capacity to take on another employee but they are fearful of the onus on the employer to provide a lump sum redundancy payment if the need arises. The proposed legislation must bear in mind the pressure on SMEs. It could be necessary to introduce twin-track legislation to ensure that SMEs are not at a disadvantage. They are the future in areas like west Cork as they provide the best hope of job creation.

I am preparing a paper on the issue of redundancy payments and I look forward to bringing it to the attention of the Minister and the Minister of State in due course. I appreciate there must be a balance applied in any changes in legislation. I suggest that such redundancy payments could be spread out over time and legislation must also ensure the protection workers' rights. However, there is a difference in the situation of workers in a large corporation and those who work in a small company with two or three employees.

Forfás has played a primary role in enterprise, trade, science, technology and innovation. Its dissolution and transfer of its powers and staff is part of the reform measures within the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to improve the ability of the Department to put in place policies to deliver and create jobs. I commend the excellent staff in the Department who will be joined by excellent staff transferred from Forfás.

The challenges to be met by the Government's jobs and employment strategy change over time to the extent that the approaches adopted in the early 1990s are no longer best suited to the challenges of today. The creation of Forfás and its subsequent successful operation proved that it was a successful policy choice when it was established but the reconfiguration of departments and State agencies has resulted in an overlap in functions and tasks.

The Title of the Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill is somewhat misleading and could give the impression that Forfás in its entirety is being abolished. Thankfully, this is not the case. The Bill creates a strategic policy division in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, which will undertake the core policy advisory and research functions. The division will be free to concentrate on the policies that enhance our job creation efforts without the need to focus on administrative issues such as pension arrangements or other non-core functions.

Another positive aspect of subsuming Forfás into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is that it becomes subject to parliamentary questions. One limitation of parliamentary questions is the delay which occurs when Departments have to relay the question to the State agency in question. In other situations Departments, regrettably, declare they have no remit in the particular area being scrutinised. This is not a satisfactory outcome for a public representative whose job is to hold public bodies to account. Members of both Houses receive a large volumes of reports, information packs, action plans, documents and policy papers from across government, business, community and non-government sectors. It would be impossible to digest everything and one has to be selective. I understand completely why a former Taoiseach asked for briefing documents to be no longer than one page, on the understanding that if it could not be summarised on one page then it was not worth presenting.

Reports provided by Forfás have always been excellent. The information contained in the many reports compiled by the agency has always been presented in a clear, straightforward and direct manner with clear recommendations for action and areas requiring attention. Reports such as Ireland's Competitiveness Scorecard, Making it in Ireland - Future Skills Requirements of the Manufacturing Sector and Ireland's Construction Sector-Outlook and Strategic Plan to 2015, are some of the documents which I have found to be very useful, informative and helpful in my role as a Deputy and also as a member of the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Forfás reports have highlighted the impact of the action plan for jobs. Despite the detractors, this policy is having a verifiable, positive effect in tackling Ireland's employment crisis. One of the recommendations contained in the jobs action plan is the creation of medical technology hubs. I refer to the launch in Galway this week of Ireland's first facility licensed to manufacture human stem cells. This development will lead to the running of clinical trials in a field of science that will change medical treatment forever.

The Minister was present in Galway at that. This is innovation in action and demonstrates what can be achieved when Government, universities and business co-operate. I am certain more innovations, more jobs and more benefits will accrue from this crucial first step in Galway.

I hope Forfás's useful reports will continue to be compiled and distributed. It is very welcome and encouraging that Forfás, in its new guise, will continue its independent analysis and scrutiny. I welcome the Minister's intention that Forfás will retain the ability to directly provide evidence-based, independent advice to the Department. It is essential that the actions we continue to take to improve the job creation environment are based on sound and rigorous analysis, and as we continue the transformation of the economy and face the challenge of changing it from one based on construction and banking to one based on enterprise and exports.

I welcome the statement that this Bill is based on improving the job-creating effectiveness of the Department and is not a cost-saving exercise. This can be seen in the fact that staff numbers are being retained at current levels and staff members are being redeployed to various other sections in the Department.

As the Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Innovation and Enterprise, Deputy English, said, we heard from members of staff in Forfás and from the Secretary General of the Department last week on the Action Plan for Jobs. That is a very positive step in terms of the number of jobs action plans we have had. We have seen growth in employment over the past number of years. Obviously, there is more to do and I am confident that the inclusion of Forfás in the Department will allow the progression of job creation policies.

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. I recall, probably like the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, participating in debate on the Industrial Development Act 1993 which put the three industry support State agencies - Forfás, Forbairt, now known as Enterprise Ireland, and the IDA - on a secure legislative basis. The 1993 Act was enacted in response to growing concern that the existing IDA was placing too much emphasis on attracting and supporting foreign-based multinationals and the fear that indigenous industry and business were not receiving an adequate level of State support. That concern very much existed in the early to mid-1990s and it still exists today.

While I welcome the Minister's stated intention of strengthening the capacity of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to drive job creation policy, I have some deep concerns that dissolving Forfás entirely may have a detrimental impact on the development of a coherent enterprise policy framework for Ireland. The Government repeatedly talks about its job creation schemes, such as the Action Plan for Jobs, and promoting job creation but despite Deputy English's comments, we still have an unacceptably high unemployment figure, with aeroplane loads of our best and brightest young people leaving this island.

A detailed analysis of the recent unemployment figure shows that part of the reason for the decline in the headline rate is due to increased take-up of schemes supported by the Department of Social Protection, such as JobBridge, but these schemes are doing little or nothing to promote enterprise. One of the lauded measures in budget 2014 was the start your own business scheme but in reality the scheme is very limited in its application and reach in only being available to persons unemployed for at least 12 months. Of course, many credit schemes have been developed by the Government but there still appears to be a lack of a co-ordinated and coherent approach to the direction the economy will take in the coming years.

Professor Seán Ó Riain of the department of sociology and the National Institute for Regional and Spatial Analysis at NUI Maynooth recently presented a paper, Enterprise Policy and Ireland's Economic Recovery, at a seminar organised by the Nevin Economic Research Institute. Professor Ó Riain gave a comprehensive account of Ireland's past and current approach to enterprise policy, including some of the key strengths and weaknesses of the policy. He referred, for example, to Ireland's reliance on FDI and continued difficulties of policy in supporting and developing indigenous enterprise. He has a positive outlook on some elements in his survey of enterprise policy, in particular the success in the software sector. However, he stated that "existing industrial policy has been relatively weak in addressing the links between the domestic and export economies".

The economist, David McWilliams, made the same point in today's Irish Independent in regard to the Cork city business region. According to his analysis, there are two distinct economies in Cork. One is the relatively high paying pharmaceutical industry clustered around Cork harbour - it is the highest paying industrial area in Ireland - which has provided good jobs over the years but which is subject to the vagaries of US and EU innovation and related supply and demand for medicines and pharmaceutical products. The other is the indigenous industry and business, with many shops and businesses throughout the city closed or desperately struggling to meet high rents and rates and other high fixed costs. These problems are on top of a lack of credit for SMEs.

In this context, the almost total failure of the Minister and his team to address the problem of high costs, including rents, for the domestic economy and to promote linkages with the export economy have been a key element in ongoing high unemployment and emigration. Professor Ó Riain has also has suggested that the "existing evidence suggests that the work of public institutions has been effective in supporting enterprise." I strongly support the State having a role in the conception and development of sustainable enterprise policy, in particular one that is supportive of indigenous industries. That is why I believe there a role of an enterprise policy unit, such as Forfás. Even though the staff and functions currently exercised by the agency will transfer to other agencies and the Department, I fear the dissolution of Forfás may have a detrimental impact on the development of Irish enterprise policy.

I recognise that Forfás has often, in its 20 year history, highlighted the linkages between national, regional and local enterprise policies and has had an important role to play in developing and supporting the State's overall enterprise plans but its dissolution is now taking place under this Bill. It was on the list of quangos Fine Gael, in particular, bruited around the place before the last general election. The dissolution is also part of the so-called reform of the structure of local enterprise offices where existing structures are being amalgamated into local authorities. There is a fear that this so-called reform will undermine the independence of local enterprise schemes in supporting job creation.

I have been involved in local enterprise initiatives and supporting small businesses in my constituency for many years, as a founding director of the Coolock Development Council, which is now the Northside Community and Business Centre, and as a director of the Northside Centre for the Unemployed and the Northside Partnership. The Northside Community and Business Centre is a member of the National Association of Community Enterprise Centres which recently published a document showing that more than 9,000 new jobs were created in businesses in enterprise centres over the past ten years. It also suggested that 1,133 businesses would not have started if the enterprise centres did not exist. Clearly, community enterprise centres have had a very supportive role in job creation.

However, I share the concerns that are being felt by many of most dynamic partnerships and local leader operational areas - one of the best of those companies is operating in the constituency of the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock - that future absorption of these community economic structures into local government will impede their social entrepreneurial instincts and achievements. For example, I noted that during the Ó Cuív-Fianna Fáil-Green Party era that local partnerships and development companies were being more circumscribed and spancelled by Government Departments. I often had it out with Deputy Ó Cuív, when he was Minister, in this House and in the hallways.

The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has never been part of the social entrepreneurial movements in Dublin Bay North, although he was invited many times. He has chosen not to spend his time in local development, as I and others have done. The Minister is continuing that process. The dull hand of the Departments of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Environment, Community and Local Government will now envelop all the greatly reduced community enterprise structures. My experience in politics has been that Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats, in particular, have always been deeply hostile to the social enterprise model and to social entrepreneurs, like my director colleagues and myself in Dublin's northside. In my first days in the Dáil, I remember hearing two deeply hostile speeches from the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, on community development. They did not seem to understand that somebody on the left of politics should be at the forefront of social entrepreneurship.

Sections 17 and 18 refer to the transfer of Forfás functions to Enterprise Ireland and the IDA and the Minister, respectively. I acknowledge that the Minister stated that a strategic policy division will be created within his Department on the dissolution of Forfás. However, this is part of programme of centralising power and will undermine the independence that the existing policy unit in the current form of Forfás in developing and elaborating State enterprise policy. How are we to know that this strategic policy division will not become politicised and driven by the ideology of the Minister of the day rather than reflecting an objective view about the direction enterprise policy should take?

The CEO of Forfás recently informed the Committee of Public Accounts that co-locating the research capability of Forfás in the Department might shorten the gap between policy development and analysis and implementation for SMEs.

That might well be the case, but many people think the strategic policy unit could best serve this country if it had an independent role. I note that Forfás received €51.4 million in 2012. Is it not the case that moving the existing functions of Forfás to the other agencies will be more expensive? Several Fine Gael Deputies have suggested that it will be cost-neutral, but will that be the case? Will the management of current shared services continue, for example? The splitting of costs across multiple agencies and Departments often results in further expense for the State. I hope the Minister of State will respond to that point when he speaks at the end of this debate.

There does not appear to have been an independent evaluation of the performance of Forfás since its establishment. Therefore, it is hard to fully determine why it should be dissolved. Has the ESRI or any other independent economic entity reviewed the role and performance of Forfás to date and made the case one way or the other for its dissolution? The same point could be made about agencies like Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland. I note that in 2012, the Forfás annual employment survey found that 9,000 net jobs were created. This figure is almost negligible, given that nearly 400,000 people are unemployed.

A great entrepreneur, Mr. Chris Horn, recently made a valuable comparison between the national enterprise policies of New Zealand and Ireland. It was good to hear that New Zealanders fear us in the area of enterprise creation. That says something for us. Perhaps they are starting to fear us on the rugby pitch at long last as well. Mr. Horn's comments serve as a reminder that the work of Forfás and other agencies needs to be benchmarked against international comparators in countries like New Zealand, Singapore, Taiwan and Denmark. Israel, for example, often goes head to head with Ireland in trying to attract foreign direct investment in the computer area.

The dissolution of Forfás and the sharing of its responsibilities among IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland, the National Standards Authority of Ireland and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation must ensure barriers to enterprise and social enterprise in Ireland will be tackled. Constant invigilation and review of the performance of the Department and its agencies is critical for the full recovery and future development of the economy. I remain concerned about this Bill.

Like other Deputies, I welcome the opportunity to contribute briefly to the debate on this important Bill. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, for being present for these proceedings.

Since 1994, Forfás has been the Government's policy advisory board dealing with areas such as enterprise, science, technology and trade. The organisation has played an important role in directing Government policy regarding the economy. It has examined opportunities and ways for various sectors of this country's economy to grow. It has provided policy advice on the best way forward for the Irish economy and for Irish business. The work of Forfás is critical for the country. It has been particularly important during this country's economic downturn of recent years. It has identified opportunities in the whole area of manufacturing, which we moved away from when this country was not as cost-competitive as it had been previously. We know from a recent report that there is an opportunity for up to 10,000 jobs to be created within that industry, which is very encouraging.

As a country, we need the ideal conditions to attract overseas investment and to encourage home-grown enterprise and business. As part of the integration of Forfás into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, a new division of the Department - the strategic policy division - will be created under this Bill, which I welcome. Will the staff of the new division be dominated by Forfás staff? What percentage of Department staff will be employed in the new division? Has the Minister of State identified how many staff will be needed in total? What costs have been involved in getting us to where we are now? Have consultants been employed to come up with this proposal? If so, what has been the cost of that? Could the Minister of State provide more detail in that regard? Obviously, there is general concern about the employment of consultants at present.

I have concerns regarding the 2012 Forfás report which indicated that a substantial percentage - 78% - of its costs went on making payments towards the pensions of Forfás, Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland. Just 22% of the funding that was received in 2012 was used to meet current policy and research needs. I ask the Minister of State to comment on that. Perhaps I have picked that up wrong. I do not know. It is certainly concerning if such significant pension payments and liabilities are accumulating in this organisation after just 19 years in operation. What was the situation in 2013? How many people are currently receiving pensions in the various agencies? What is the cost of these pensions? Are plans being made to cover these costs in the future?

It is obvious that the Minister of State's mandate involves jobs, jobs and more jobs. I know he is doing everything in his power to try to get the economy moving and to get young people, in particular, back into employment. I suggest the Government is placing too much emphasis or focus on multinational industry to the detriment of small enterprise. We know that just 10% of all people employed in Ireland are employed by foreign or multinational investors. Over 60% of our workforce is employed by small businesses or enterprises.

There is a concern that the Government is not doing enough to cut out red tape and reduce the risks that have to be taken by people who are setting up as sole traders or in partnerships. I am thinking particularly of the manner in which such people have to put their assets and savings at risk, for example, by putting their family homes into small businesses to try to ensure they grow. Credit is not as readily available as it once was because the pendulum has swung. We used to have too much credit, but now there is a lack of credit for small enterprise. The need for personal guarantees is causing incredible difficulties for risk-takers who put their savings into enterprises. Obviously, they have to pay large upfront costs when setting up their businesses and also have to pay rent and rates. I understand that a significant emphasis was placed on this area in the Action Plan for Jobs. There is always room for improvement.

I know that the Taoiseach's aspiration and goal is to ensure Ireland becomes the best small country in the world for people to grow old and do business in. We must continue to focus on ensuring small businesses are able to grow and employ people over time. I would like to make a few suggestions in that context. We should reduce PRSI for employers. We should ensure that an element of social welfare is available to those involved in enterprise. Those who have paid taxes should get something back from the system. We are familiar with the current position, whereby people whose businesses fail receive no help or support from the State. That is very wrong.

The integration of Forfás into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation will enable the Department to take a more hands-on approach to job creation policy. This will serve to shorten the length of time that it takes to draft policy and for policy to come into effect. I am happy that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, has provided an assurance that the new unit will remain independent. Obviously, that is a crucial element of this plan. Forfás has been highly acclaimed for many years. Its reports have been welcomed because of its independence.

Obviously there is a genuine concern that it would be taken over by the Department and lose its edge and an element of independence. I ask the Minister of State to comment on that. I know the Government is always interested in making savings, which is why this is happening. What savings does the Government expect to make as a consequence of these changes?

Unemployment is one of the issues of greatest concern to the country. We all welcome the recent reduction in the numbers on the live register. I know emigration is one of the issues that has helped bring that about, but there is a consistent element of jobs being created here. If we could encourage every small business to take on at least one new person, it would make a great difference. While I know that has been proposed previously by Government, we have to work to make it become a reality.

Too many people are emigrating and valuable skills and talent are being lost to the country. Obviously the key priority must be to create new jobs to get Ireland back on track. The Department's new strategic policy division will be focused on that and will work to ensure that growth takes place.

The issue of quangos is one that resonates with the public - not that Forfás was ever a quango as such. It is the lack of accountability that really annoys the public. This move is positive in bringing Forfás into the Department. No doubt it will continue with its independence and continue to do what it does well in the future.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important Bill. I thank and congratulate the staff at Forfás for the great work they have done since it was established in 1994. The Bill makes provision for the dissolution of Forfás which has been Ireland's policy advisory board for enterprise, trade, science, technology and innovation since its establishment in 1994.

Job creation is at the top of the Government's agenda and the Bill makes changes that will enhance that goal. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation provided grant funding of €51.4 million to Forfás in 2012. This funding is ring-fenced for continued research on strategic policy development. It is vital that this continues to be focused on areas such as science, technology, innovation and entrepreneurship to continue to grow the economy.

This integration with the Department is being done in a way that strengthens the ability of the business sector to create jobs by being more streamlined and more focused. This includes the restructuring of enterprise support models for micro and small businesses. The county and city enterprise boards will be dissolved and their functions will now be carried out by the newly formed local enterprise offices, LEOs. They will be under the auspices of each local authority in tandem with a specialised unit of Enterprise Ireland overseeing them, ensuring that supports to small businesses are accessible and that we have joined-up thinking. The purpose of the LEOs is to provide a one-stop-shop to help those budding businesspeople and social entrepreneurs in the regions and the cities to get soft supports such as mentoring and advice on where they can raise capital for start-up finance etc. We welcome this very important measure.

Other streamlining measures are also envisaged. The Office of Chief Scientific Advisor will be assigned to the director general of Science Foundation Ireland. There will also be some restructuring of enterprise development bodies in the Shannon region.

The clear aim of this legislation is to strengthen the capacity of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to drive the job creation policy and continue the work that has already started. There will be a new strategic policy division within the Department with experienced Forfás staff forming the core of the division. This division will continue the role Forfás had in advising, researching and developing policy on the Government's annual action plan for jobs, which has been a great success. We are looking forward to the 2014 action plan which will be published early next month.

Other important functions will be transferred to Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. One of these functions includes the aim to foster the national objective of regional development, a policy objective that deserves more attention. It puzzles me at times that all the concentration is on the east coast and larger urban areas. We live in a small country and commuting distances are relatively short. Most of my constituency is rural and underdeveloped from an industrial point of view and yet it is only one hour from three international airports and two seaports. We need to concentrate on more regional development. This may need to be considered from a social enterprise point of view which is now very focused from a European point of view. We may also need to consider more co-operative models.

I understand that most firms wish to locate in bigger urban areas because of skills but we must continue to encourage firms to set up business in the regions thereby helping indigenous businesses in the region to grow ensuring that they are not forgotten. We also need to continue with a broadband strategy. While technically one can be anywhere in the world to do business, we need improved broadband in regional areas. I welcome the policy of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, in driving this agenda.

Overall I welcome the rationalisation programme being undertaken by the Minister. I am confident the overall effect will bring great focus to the process and we will know exactly who is responsible in each area. This rationalisation measure will contribute greatly to continued job creation, which has been the primary focus of the Government since it was elected in 2011. Thankfully we have seen some success in that regard particularly last year with the creation of 58,000 jobs. It is vital that we continue that focus over the lifetime of the Government. We have many budding entrepreneurs and as has been mentioned earlier, 80% of business is carried out in the SME sector. I thank those people for taking risks and continuing to focus in recent years. In many cases surviving was the new success story. Now that the economy is changing, I am glad supports are available to help them to expand their businesses. There is great opportunity but we need to give them the soft supports and the financial supports to allow them to grow.

This rationalisation measure will contribute greatly to continued job creation and I commend the Bill to the House.

I thank Members from the Technical Group for allowing me some of their time to speak on the Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill 2013. Unlike some of my colleagues I will not be jumping up and down and I do not want to burst the Minister of State's bubble. However, I wish to highlight some problems with the Bill. It sounds great to talk about the dissolution of an organisation and integrating it into something else. It might give the impression that it is good and will save money. Unfortunately, the Government's track record in saving money is abysmal. I note the Minister of State laughing, but I point to the debacle with Irish Water. We had a perfectly good system of taking care of our water through the local authorities. All they needed was more investment to stop the water leaking. However, instead the Government set up what is probably one of the greatest quangos of all time and nobody knows what the total bill will come to.

The Government also decided to abolish town councils. While it sounded great when the Government's PR system announced it was getting rid of town councillors, it forgot to tell people that we were also losing town engineers, the town clerk and destroying an entire system. We now have to close some offices and build new ones. I am reliably informed - I also see it on the ground - it will cost hundreds of millions of euro, which have not been accounted for yet.

The Government has a poor track record in centralising and changing things. I wish to highlight another Government decision that blew up in its face, the centralisation of the processing of medical cards. We had a great system whereby people were able to interact, and local community welfare officers could discuss cases on the telephone. In County Kerry they were processed in Tralee. The Government decided to remove it from Tralee and bring it to Dublin. That was supposed to be a good idea to save money and give better service delivery. Unfortunately, it does not. The Government thought it was a good idea to centralise the call centres for emergency services. It did away with the local ones in Cork and Kerry and all around the country. They are being shut down and the Government is centralising them in Dublin, where they are run from a fire station on which the Government did some renovations and put in a computer system that is out of date. I asked for an independent safety audit on the building but none was carried out. The Government's answer was that it did an internal audit. In other words, it audited itself. If I thought this was going to work, to be of benefit to our SMEs, save money, create jobs, and help small businesses I would be the first to say the Government is correct. Unfortunately, however, I do not see that happening. Instead the Government's decisions cost a fortune and the debacles in which it is involved every day are getting worse.

Running a small business at present is extremely difficult. As someone who all his life has been involved in small business and in creating jobs in a small way, I see, as do my friends and constituents who are trying to keep people in employment, the enormous obstacles in our way. Any person who wants to advance a business must have finance. The Irish people, young couples, have paid to bail out our banks but when people want to expand their businesses or perhaps to diversify and invest in their small companies they cannot get money from the banks. The Minister of State, his senior Minister and the Minister for Finance should have the continuous aim and objective of ensuring that the banks will give capital to people. I am not talking about huge sums of money, such as happened during the boom when people who looked for €100,000 left with €320,000 plus something for a little holiday. I am not talking about nonsense. I am talking about people being able to acquire necessary finance to improve their business. Until finance is freed up for the SMEs they will be stifled and held back. That is one of the biggest problems facing employers at present.

I would love to be able to compliment the IDA and say that it has done great work in Kerry but I cannot. Any time we hear a jobs announcement it is in Dublin because the weight of Ministers is concentrated in Dublin, or Limerick, where the Minister for Finance comes from, or in Cork. The jobs are not coming to Donegal or County Kerry. How could the Government leave the biggest opportunity we have had in County Kerry? I compliment Deputy Spring, who is here, and other Members from Kerry because we wear the one shirt when it comes to this issue. Shannon LNG is one of the most important priorities for every politician from County Kerry. Until recently the Government stated that it could not interfere or get involved. There will be a massive injection of capital during the construction phase and afterwards in its operation.

It is a no-brainer for the Government to get off the fence and say that it will remove the obstacles. That is what it means to be in government and to be a Minister. The Government has a huge majority and is there to run the country. There are people willing to come into North Kerry to create much-needed jobs but the Government is dithering and messing around. I do not see why it will not get off the fence to support the people. We all know that the problem is that the company is being asked to pay for infrastructure it will never use. That is crazy. It is nonsensical. Will the Minister of State, as a matter of urgency, bring the LNG issue to the Government? I am not imposing it on the Minister of State but he is here to take the debate. Will he ensure that the IDA picks up the pace and realises that there are people in Ireland who live outside Dublin, Limerick and Cork? I have nothing against my good neighbours in Cork but we want to see the IDA create some jobs in County Kerry because over the years its track record has not been very good.

When someone sets out to start a business every agency or quango in the State comes down on top of them, whether it is the HSE or the local authority. We understand that people have to pay their rates and bills but some of the bureaucracy and red tape put in the way of small business people is ridiculous. Ireland today does not encourage small business people. I am very disappointed to have to say this because over the years small businesses have been the backbone of the country. We started with small farmers then people became involved in the tourism industry. We should be nurturing and encouraging them.

In case the Minister of State thinks that I am all negative I compliment the Government effort on The Gathering, which was a huge success. We should build on that but we should also consider the people who provided the services and ask whether our tourism operators, hoteliers, guesthouses and restaurants all put on a good show for those who came to the country. Of course they did. They put on an excellent show. They gave excellent service and value but the people working in these sectors are competing unfairly with NAMA hotels. How can one encourage someone in any part of the country to compete with a NAMA-operated hotel that puts them under severe pressure? These are family businesses in many instances. The majority of what I would call "real" hoteliers are born into the business. Their parents and grandparents were hoteliers. These young people have taken over the businesses but unlike their grandparents, they are at an unfair disadvantage because they have to compete with the hotel down the road operated by NAMA, which does not have to make a profit. I saw an advertisement recently for bed and breakfast for two people, at €48 for one night. That is not sustainable. It is not sensible. One cannot say that is great value. That is operating at a loss. It is only trying to keep a room full. The people I represent, the real hoteliers, have to try to make a profit. They are giving excellent value but the Minister of State should consider what they are up against.

I believe a time will come when the Government will have to make a decision on this. While I never want to see a door closing, there are hotels that are distorting the market because they are in NAMA. They cannot be allowed to continue like this. They could be used for other purposes but they should not be in competition with indigenous hotels that have been in business for years and have created much-needed employment. As with other issues I have raised, the Government should come off the fence on this issue.

To come back to the Bill, the reason I am firing these warning shots and not jumping up and down like some of my colleagues, who are giving it a wholehearted welcome, is because of the Government's disastrous track record. This is similar to the decision that was taken many years ago to close the rural rail network, which certainly cost us billions in lost tourism and investment for industries that were lost because the roads were not able to cater for the traffic of goods. Time will prove that the decisions taken by this Government, such as the abolition of the town councils and the establishment of Irish Water, and the continuous drive to close everything that is local and centralise it, will cost billions and will hurt the local person, the man or woman living in a housing estate in a town or rural area.

I have heard commentators say it is great to get rid of the town councils and that fewer councillors will mean fewer bills, but time will prove it to be a very costly move. The county councillors and town councillors are, as far as I am concerned, the backbone of this country when it comes to politics. Any politician worth his salt in this House had to serve his time on a local authority before he was elected as a Deputy. I believe it should be compulsory that a person should have served on a local authority because, to me, a good sign of a politician is the person who has given the longest time on a local authority before they are elected to this House. That person will be a better politician in the future than the person who might have been parachuted in without having served their apprenticeship, as I would call it, on a local authority. If people want to learn what real politics is about, they should serve on a local authority. Many of those elected to this House without being on a local authority beforehand were here a very short time because they did not know what it was all about. What it is all about is taking care of the people and their needs, and ensuring proper and prudent care of the finances of our State.

When the Taoiseach is questioned by those on this side of the House, all he can do is give a history lesson as to the mistakes of previous Governments. Of course, previous Governments most certainly made mistakes, but this Government said when it came into office that it would do everything right. When it was introducing the property tax, the Government's mantra was that it would set up the tax but that people would afterwards have better delivery of services in their locality. However, it neglected to tell the people it would do a U-turn afterwards whereby 80% of the money is now going to the establishment of Irish Water. The irony of it all is that the Government got money from people in a tax and it used it to set up another tax to hit them again. People could have lived with the property tax if it was fair and if they could see better services locally, but they cannot. There are broken lights and footpaths which are not being replaced and roads falling into disrepair which are not being repaired. Despite this, the Government talks about better delivery of local services.

Town councils are being abolished. How can the Government call that a better delivery of service in any town? I have to talk about the great town of Killarney and the massive strides that have been made there over the years by good town councillors working in conjunction with the Tidy Towns committee and the local chamber of commerce, pulling it all together and ending up with the excellent product that is the town of Killarney. That is replicated throughout the country. What is the Government's answer to that? It is to disband the town council and see what will happen after that. This will not help these towns. To come back to the SMEs, it is not going to help businesses. Chambers of commerce have worked hand in hand with town councils over the years. I have continually made the point, since the Government announced it was going to abolish town councils, that there is a wealth of experience on which the Government will miss out. It has had highly respectable people from all sectors - Independents, the Labour Party, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil-----

We might get back to the Bill.

I will, a Cheann Comhairle, but it is all tied up. We are talking about jobs, enterprise and trying to keep people at work. I am drawing the conclusion that, in regard to what the Government has done and the decisions it has taken, time will prove this is not just bad, not just mad, but actually disastrously and financially hurtful to the people of the country.

I want to make brief mention of the Health and Safety Authority. I have nothing but respect for the work of the HSA and any life that can be saved and any guidance it can give is most welcome, especially when it comes to business, construction and farming. That said, I want to highlight one very important point. It is like the position with the Road Safety Authority in that, just because a group is doing good work, we do not want it to lose the run of itself and go mad with excessive regulation. Unfortunately, that has been happening with some of these authorities, but I will go into that during another debate because I know the Ceann Comhairle does not want me to stray.

No, I am conscious of the clock as the Deputy's time is almost up.

I will stick rigorously to the clock, a Cheann Comhairle. You can be assured of that. I might not be on my best behaviour all the time but I do try to keep myself on the straight and narrow in the best way I can to conform with the rules.

I am thankful for the opportunity to talk on the Bill. I would be delighted if, in ten or 20 years, the Minister of State could say I was wrong in my predictions, but the unfortunate thing is that I believe I will be right.

There are a couple of issues in the Bill that pertain to Kerry with which I disagree, but I will try to stick to the Bill as much as possible. I acknowledge that the purpose of the Bill is to give effect to the decision to integrate the research and policy adviser functions of Forfás into the Department. It also mentions the fact that Shannon Development, which exists in my area at present, is being dissolved. To that end, I am concerned in regard to the property portfolio that would traditionally in other parts of the country fall under IDA Ireland. As the Minister of State knows, Shannon NewCo will have a focus on the Shannon Airport region and the aviation industries whereas the technology park in Tralee is the main fulcrum of employment at the moment, with more than 400 people working there and €19.5 million in wages per annum going into the town. We do not have a home for it at present, largely due to the fact the local authority has expressed an interest, as has the technological university to be, which will be amalgamated with the Minister of State's institute of technology in Cork. It is an issue of great concern.

In addition, despite the fact there is high unemployment in the county, we are now at the point where the technology park is virtually full. In the event that some enterprise would consider coming to the technology park, we have empty factory floors which we have also provided to the IDA for the purposes of promoting and selling them. We would like to see those full in the not too distant future.

The technology park also has more sites which need to be built on. I would encourage the IDA to look at the idea of participating in a form of ownership. It is very much a case of "build it and they will come", and a number of us are actively pursuing employers, whether in financial services or manufacturing.

That would be the Tralee Chamber Alliance and some of the county council officials. I have spearheaded some of what we have done to date. The infrastructure needs to be in place and the capacity must be there to attract them. I ask the IDA and the Department to consider some capital investment in the area.

I was lucky enough to have served on a county enterprise board in Kerry. I found it to be hugely productive - more so than giving money. We had some excellent people like Tomás Hayes who were able to provide mentoring and bring mentors to places. I note that the Minister of State is looking at local enterprise boards. I like the idea that people on the ground who are involved in accountancy, politics, banking, etc., are brought in and it does not become a slush fund for the local authorities. It provides less funding than some of the Leader groups but it provides a great deal more expertise to small and medium-sized enterprises, which is to be welcomed.

The hierarchy of the IDA is aware of the situation in Kerry. I again impress upon the Minister of State that we have been encouraged to develop small and medium-sized indigenous enterprises. Kerry Group, which is the largest food ingredients company in the world with over 25,000 employees, began in a prefab in north Kerry. I have told the Ministers for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Tánaiste on several occasions that it is very difficult for the people of Kerry to see a jobs announcement of 800 jobs in Naas when we are being encouraged to develop our own but are told it cannot establish in Kerry. I can understand some parts of the argument but if there is such displacement, there must be a balancing act whereby the IDA says that it recognises the contribution made by Kerry Group to our country and will, therefore, be attracting 800 jobs back to Kerry. That is only fair. I ask agencies to do so again.

There was a high level of knowledge within the county enterprise boards as to what was going on. Forfás, as we are learning here, is bringing technical expertise, research and policy into areas where the Minister can make decisive decisions to create jobs. That is what it is all about at the end of the day. It is not just about scaling back the amount of money that is spent in Departments. It is about creating jobs, having technical expertise and using people to the best of their ability. It is also about invigorating people and giving them the energy to have a vision for the country, to try to deliver on it and to have a holistic approach to it. I speak about Kerry because I have a restricted period of time in which to speak and I have concerns. The Minister of State has visited the technology park and the Institute of Technology, Tralee, and is aware of the problems. We need jobs in Kerry. We are working on it and, hopefully, we will have a couple of announcements before the end of the year and will work towards that. I thank the Minister of State for his time and wish him the best of luck with the new endeavour.

I am also pleased to have some time to speak on the Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill 2013. The legislation was mooted some time ago and the Government promised, as did the last one, that it would cut back on the number of quangos but it has not succeeded greatly in doing so, no more than the last Government. I have nothing against Forfás. We needed those development agencies badly over the years but there comes a time when there is duplication and agencies like this should be reigned in and brought under one roof.

The main provision of the Bill is that primary legislation is necessary to give effect to the decision to integrate Forfás into the Department by providing for the transfer of Forfás functions and staff to the Department and other agencies. Therein lies the problem. There should be no problem. It should be acclaimed and helped. I remember asking at committee about the integration of two agencies that was announced in a blaze of glory a few years ago before this Government took office. I found out afterwards that millions of euro were spent on the integration, staff management and sending staff away for bonding courses. Why did this happen? We are a civilised country. People should be thankful that their jobs have been secured. While there must be some integration and regardless of whether it was hijacked by trade unions or something else, I was shocked when I examined the figures. I hope it does not happen here.

What is the Deputy talking about?

I am talking about the previous amalgamation of two Government agencies.

I cannot say off-hand but I am not making it up. I was presented with the facts, which I will get for the Minister of State. It happened during the tenure of the last Government. It do not know if it has arrived at its intended destination yet.

Is it pertinent to this Bill?

It is pertinent to amalgamation.

With all due respect, I do not follow the Deputy's point.

Through the Chair.

My point is that the main provision of the Bill is that primary legislation is necessary to give effect to the decision to integrate Forfás into the Department. I came across this situation before where two agencies whose names elude me - they may come to me before I am finished - were amalgamated. When we inquired about how it was going, we were told that it would be ongoing for some time. Integration talks, bonding sessions and everything else were needed for the personnel from both agencies. I understand that there needs to be a bit of that but not weekend courses and enormous courses which go nowhere. I hope the Minister of State understands what I am talking about. We need these things to happen although clearly it cannot happen overnight. The Bill transfers functions conferred upon Forfás under section 9 of the Industrial Development Act 1993 to IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. The functions will be conferred directly upon the agencies as appropriate with the exception of some powers which are reserved to the Department. All of this has to happen legally and I accept that it is above board. I am talking about common sense prevailing.

As Deputy Spring mentioned, we also see the county enterprise boards under sustained challenge. They are to be taken back under the remit of the county councils. They were always under the remit of the county council but they were at arm's length. I also served on one and found it to be very beneficial. It included the mentoring programmes and the different schemes that did not have a lot of money. It was evaluated that the amount of money they spent per job was minuscule compared to what the IDA and other agencies spent. They have done outstanding work. I can speak for my own one in south Tipperary. I would be worried that it would be brought under complete local authority control. The last person to say this is a former Member.

We are not dealing with the county enterprise boards. They are not included in this Bill.

I am aware of that but the last speaker also referred to them. I have very valued experience of what they did. The last people someone goes to in order to create a job are those agencies. They will be seen as statutory groups where all the hoops have to be gone through to secure planning, etc. They will also be seen as enforcement agencies.

IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland have been mentioned here. Again, a representative from Enterprise Ireland sat on the enterprise board to which I referred and did a great job. The expertise was valued. Some changes have been mentioned. Previously, Enterprise Ireland could only deal with someone if they had over 100 employees. I think the number is smaller now because there is a huge gap in the market where small indigenous companies are trying to work, stay afloat and expand. They must be supported and unshackled. We cannot expect the IDA to do it but it should be there in a supporting role even if the businesses have fewer than ten employees. There are limits and pigeonholes that are very restrictive. People need supports and to be allowed to continue to work and concentrate on expanding their businesses rather than dealing with too many regulations.

I hope that when this Bill passes through the House, it will be clear-cut and straightforward and not laden with bureaucracy. If it is laden with bureaucracy, it will not be any help or use. I also hope there will be savings, which we need as well.

The Bill provides for Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, to become employers in their own right, for staff to be employees of their respective agencies and for the three agencies to establish pension schemes for their employees. The Bill also provides for responsibility for the existing Forfás superannuation scheme and all legacy schemes to transfer to the Minister. While I understand and accept this, I hope there will not be too many legacy issues. I want more answers from the Minister of State in this regard. The main point I want to drive across is that I want there to be a smooth transition without too many legacy issues. Given the number of drafters, Deputies who have contributed to the Bill and people who will enact it, I hope that simplicity prevails for once, not multiplicity, frustration, legacy issues, Labour Court disputes etc.

No one is attacking anyone else. People have started focusing on their rights. Let go of those for a moment, be thankful to have a good job with promotion prospects, put the shoulder to the wheel and try to help us get out of this mess.

I will conclude, as the Minister of State is anxious to address some of the issues raised. I have many more, but I will raise them some other day. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his time.

As there are 15 or so minutes left in the Deputy's slot, I thank him for his latitude. It is my intention to address only those points that were pertinent to the Bill. Some political points were made, as were a number that were extraneous to the Bill.

I thank Deputies for their valuable contributions. I will address a number of the issues raised by Deputy Calleary. I welcome his support for the Bill. His praise for the valuable work done by Forfás since its establishment is well deserved. Forfás is one of those organisations that enjoys the confidence of the polity. As a Minister of State, I have witnessed at first hand the expertise and excellence of its people. Their commitment to public service is unfailing. Bringing the policy capability of Forfás into the Department will give the latter the opportunity to strengthen its ability to shape and implement policy and to oversee the performance of its agencies.

Forfás has made a significant contribution to the economy's transformation of recent years, a point that has been made across the political divide. It has been of significant value to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Government in the development of appropriate policy responses to the many enterprise development challenges confronting us.

Forfás has provided robust and independent analysis and advice that has assisted my Department and others in formulating policy positions to drive the policy agenda. This speaks to some of the points made by various Deputies concerning independence. The independent nature of the research and advice that Forfás provides is of great value to the Department. It is not intended that this independent thinking will be diminished by the integration process. Forfás's policy and research functions will form the core of the new strategic policy division in the Department. Co-locating Forfás in the Department will streamline the process between policy development and its implementation, serving to strengthen the Department's role in driving economic recovery. Regardless of whether Deputies were speaking for their own constituencies, everyone who contributed to this debate discussed economic recovery in one way or another and the need to drive the jobs agenda. At its core, Forfás will work in the Department with a view to growing jobs and economic recovery.

I assure the House that our objective is to maintain the independence that we have come to expect from Forfás's research and analysis. There are precedents in the Civil Service for this type of independent work being conducted within a Department. When Ireland was a recipient of significant structural funds in the 1990s, a number of evaluation units were established in the lead Departments responsible for the European Social Fund, the European Regional Development Fund and the European agricultural funds. Although primarily staffed by civil servants, these units independently evaluated individual programmes and published their reports. A central evaluation unit was later established in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and published its reports.

The senior management teams of my Department and Forfás are committed to ensuring that the integration is operationalised in a way that maximises the outcomes in terms of developing and implementing enterprise policy. We are also committed to ensuring that policy advice to other Ministers continues to be informed by robust, evidence-based analysis and through consultation with relevant stakeholders through the strategic policy division.

The capacity of Forfás to support independent advice and analysis will also be maintained through its support for the National Competitiveness Council, NCC, and the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs, EGFSN. The role of the NCC in the context of the Forfás integration has been carefully considered. Revised terms of reference have been approved for the NCC, which will give it greater flexibility to prepare and publish reports on issues it considers important, thereby copper-fastening its independence. I hope that this addresses the concerns expressed by Deputies in this regard.

The EGFSN, which reports jointly to the Ministers for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Education and Skills, will continue preparing policy papers independently on skills needs and labour market issues that impact on Ireland's enterprise and employment growth. The EGFSN will also be serviced by the strategic policy division.

Deputy Calleary referred to a figure of €11 million in respect of the Forfás research budget in 2013. The Forfás research and studies consultancy budget in 2013 was actually €990,000. There was a further allocation of €125,000 for specialised and professional services, giving a total of approximately €1.1 million. If Deputy Calleary wants to provide us with the source of his figures, we will seek to clarify them for him. While the Forfás research and consultancy budget has been incorporated into my Department's budget for 2014, the Minister and the Department are committed to ensuring that the strategic policy division is properly resourced in this regard. There is no intention to reduce the budget in future years.

Deputy Calleary also raised the issue of Carrisbrook House. Upon the re-organisation of the enterprise development agencies in 1994, Forfás acquired responsibility for the leasehold interests, maintenance and repair of the former IDA headquarters, Carrisbrook House. Forfás managed the buildings until July 2013, when responsibility for the management of the leases and property transferred to IDA Ireland as part of progressing the integration of Forfás with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Carrisbrook House was originally acquired by AnCO in 1969 on a 65-year full repairing lease. It was one of the Dublin offices occupied by the former IDA up to 1985 when the IDA centralised in Wilton Park House. Since then, Carrisbrook House has been sublet to a number of tenants and was fully sublet by Forfás to the middle of 2008.

Approximately 15% of the building is sublet to an embassy and the remainder of the building is unoccupied, but is being actively marketed to potential new tenants. However, the vacating of the space in question coincided with the economic downturn. Every effort has been made by Forfás to seek replacement tenants or to dispose of the leasehold interest. Working with professional estate agents, a number of marketing initiatives were undertaken since 2008. Forfás has also worked with IDA Ireland in marketing the property for potential tenants.

In 2011 and 2012, Forfás stepped up direct marketing and during this time there were 12 viewings of the building. In the context of difficult market conditions, and despite a number of engagements with potential tenants, a letting has not been secured. The IDA has now assumed responsibility for all properties formerly managed by Forfás and will continue the efforts to secure tenants for Carrisbrook House. The cost of the vacant space in Carrisbrook House was approximately €1.2 million for 2012. It is hoped that as the economy continues to recover and as demand for commercial premises continues to rise, in particular in Dublin, IDA Ireland will be successful in filling the vacant office space in Carrisbrook House.

Deputy Calleary also asked this morning about the Advisory Council on Science, Technology and Innovation, which is supported by Forfás staff. The current membership of the advisory council was stood down with effect from 25 September 2013, pending the finalisation of the Forfás integration process and overall policy on public service reform. This does not rule out the option of establishing an advisory council of a similar nature on an alternative footing if this is deemed appropriate at some stage in the future.

There have been many developments in the research and technology agenda over the past two years. The report of the research prioritisation group was published. We have 14 priority areas arising from that report, giving rise to 14 action plans. Forfás plays an integral part in that process. If it was not for Forfás, it would not be as successful a process, such is the good work it carries out. The process will form the main pillar of our research strategy up to 2017. Deputies might say that I would say that anyway, as Minister of State with responsibility for research, but it is very pertinent to my brief.

A Deputy raised the issue of pensions. A substantial portion of the Forfás non-pay budget for 2014 has been subsumed into the Department's budget to reflect progress to date on the integration project. It is important to state that Forfás also has responsibility for the pension costs of retired staff of Forfás, IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland and certain former agencies, such as An Bord Tráchtála, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards, the National Board for Science and Technology and Eolas, under the Industrial Development Acts 1993 to 2003. As legal employer of 1,150 staff across the development agencies, Forfás centrally manages the pension schemes of Forfás itself and its preceding organisations, the associated pension compliance obligations and related staff benefits and insurance scheme. I hope that goes towards answering the points made about the outturns for 2013 and 2014 in respect of pensions.

There are 32 staff and two heads of division to be assigned to the strategic policy division. That question was asked in respect of staffing. Deputy Broughan made a number of points, one of which was about social enterprise. That is not pertinent to this Bill, but there is an interdepartmental group on social enterprise which meets me and the social enterprise task force on a regular basis. If there is an issue with the potential of social economy and community enterprise in north Dublin, the Deputy can contact me and we can facilitate a further discussion on that.

Deputy Broughan also raised the issue of the costs of relocating the functions. There are no additional costs associated with the transfer of functions, and Deputy McGrath raised this point as well. The Forfás property function has been transferred to IDA Ireland, along with some shared services functions. Existing budgets in respect of these functions transferred to the IDA and there is no proposal to increase these budgets. There may be some costs associated with the relocation of INAB to the HSA, but these will be relatively small and will be met from within existing budgets.

I hope I have answered Deputy O'Brien's point about independent and critical analysis. We all agree that the commitment is there. It is important that the independence be maintained and that the body would have that ability to construct its own reports. There were also issues about unemployment and youth unemployment. I do not intend getting into a macroeconomic debate. There are other mechanisms for addressing those political points that were made. Points were also made about IDA regional development. Specific Deputies made points about their own constituencies. IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are revising their regional strategies which will seek to overcome and address problems which may be hampering regional development. I know the IDA recently announced plans to provide offices and buildings in a number of regional locations in the coming years. It is fair to say IDA Ireland actively promotes centres throughout the country, but in my experience, if we look at those companies coming in now, particularly in the technology sector, they are often young companies born on the Internet and they seem to want to cluster in areas where there is already much activity, such as Dublin and larger urban conurbations like Cork and Limerick. They are not inclined to move outside those larger urban conurbations, so there is no doubt that this provides a challenge. Very often the client companies make the ultimate decision on where to locate, following site visits. It is important to recognise that as well. There is no doubt there is still a regional disparity and a challenge in respect of the growth in the eastern side of the country relative to other regional areas. That is something we are addressing through Action Plan for Jobs.

The implementation team tasked with overseeing the integration of Forfás into the Department has made considerable progress ahead of the legislation to dissolve Forfás in agreeing with the relevant agencies the most appropriate location for Forfás's non-policy functions. Once the legislation is enacted, we will be ready to commence Parts 2 to 5, inclusive, and section 39, all of which relate to the staff of Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland and the NSAI, in advance of the dissolution of Forfás. More than 1,000 employees currently seconded from Forfás will become employees of their respective agency once these parts are commenced. Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland will set up individual superannuation schemes for their employees who will leave the existing Forfás and legacy schemes to join these schemes, retaining their respective terms and conditions from their previous superannuation schemes. Therefore, there is no diminution of standards in that sense. We will also commence Part 7 at the same time, which provides for the transfer of the accreditation function and associated staff from Forfás to the HSA in advance of the dissolution date. These staff will join the HSA superannuation scheme, retaining their respective terms and conditions from their previous superannuation schemes.

Part 6, which provides for the dissolution of Forfás and the transfer of its functions to Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland or the Minister, as appropriate, as well as the remaining sections of Part 8, will be commenced on the dissolution date, which is to be decided.

Decisions have been taken with regard to the reformed structure of the Department once Forfás has been integrated and project teams are working on the practical aspects of the transfer of Forfás staff, records and ICT systems to the Department. We anticipate, therefore, that the dissolution of the agency, integration of its policy and research functions and transfer of approximately 60 staff will take place shortly after the commencement of the Parts relating to the various agencies.

I thank Deputies for their contributions on the Bill. I deliberately did not address issues raised that were not pertinent to the legislation. Deputies - I am guilty too in this regard - have a tendency to take advantage of Second Stage debates to introduce matters which are extraneous to the legislation being debated.

While the Bill is technical in nature, it is important legislation which will give effect to the decision to integrate the policy and research functions of Forfás in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. It is a valuable part of the Department's contribution to the public sector reform plan. Combining the strengths of the Department and Forfás will help us in our efforts to be a world class enterprise Ministry and enhance the contribution the Department makes to economic recovery. Deputies share in this aspiration to create jobs and generate a sustainable economic recovery that will have a positive impact on society. Forfás, through its staff, will have a major role to play in this regard.

Question put and agreed to.
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