Topical Issue Debate

Inland Fisheries Ireland Funding

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, for taking this Topical Issue matter. My question relates to the status of the plans by Inland Fisheries Ireland for a fisheries-based salmon life centre in Ballina, County Mayo. In recent years, at the instigation of the North Western Regional Fisheries Board, one of the regional predecessors to Inland Fisheries Ireland, considerable taxpayers' money, staff time and resources were expended on plans to develop this project. Ballina is the ideal location for such a facility given its long history of salmon fishing, its reputation internationally as a major salmon angling centre and its official designation as salmon capital of Ireland.

The North Western Regional Fisheries Board commissioned a feasibility study for the visitor centre, which was carried out in 2008-2009 with the aid of funds provided by Fáilte Ireland, Ballina Town Council, Mayo County Council and the board itself, at a cost of some €50,000. The study found that the project had very good potential but did not come within the statutory remit of the fisheries board. It was considered more appropriate to have the town council lead the project, with technical input and support from the board. Following the abolition of the board in July 2010, Inland Fisheries Ireland took over all responsibilities, assets and liabilities of the board.

IFI consistently maintained its support for the Ballina project and was fully represented on the planning committee that was formed. In fact, a representative of IFI attended all meetings of the committee, together with representatives of Ballina Town Council, Mayo County Council, Ballina Chamber of Commerce, Fáilte Ireland, the Irish Marine Institute and the Mayo north tourism committee. In August 2012, a joint delegation from IFI and Mayo County Council travelled to Norway to view a number of salmon visitor centres there. Informed by this visit, the county council drew up plans for a visitor centre to be located on its site in Ballina adjacent to the arts centre and overlooking the refurbished weir at the Ridge Pool. The plans were completed and approved through the council's Part 8 planning permission process just before Christmas. Issues remain in regard to management and running costs but these can be resolved in due course.

Given the expenditure and resources committed thus far to the development of the Ballina project, it was with surprise that I read at the beginning of the week in my local newspaper, The Western People, of IFI's plans to develop a €2 million fisheries-based interpretative visitor centre at the Cong salmon hatchery in south Mayo. Despite the shovel-ready project in Ballina that is only awaiting funding, IFI has apparently appointed consultants to examine the feasibility of establishing another interpretative centre at Cong, which is only 50 miles away. This seems an incredible instance of duplication and a waste of taxpayers' money. If the Cong salmon hatchery requires refurbishment, then it certainly should be done. I have no problem with that.

The question does arise, however, as to the manner in which the board of management of IFI is operating. Is it within the statutory remit of IFI to develop such interpretative centres? The chairman, Brendan O'Mahony, who is from the Cong area, was formerly a member of the North Western Regional Fisheries Board and, as such, should have been very familiar with the Ballina project since its inception. What consultants have been appointed to the Cong project and what are their terms of reference? If the proposed centre at Cong proceeds, where will the €2 million in construction costs come from and who will cover the running costs? Why has Ballina Town Council not been consulted about the new plans?

With due respect to Cong, does the Minister of State consider it feasible to have two fisheries-based visitor centres not alone in the country but in one county? What is his view of the proposed further expenditure of public funds and resources? These questions must be answered in order to address the uncertainty surrounding the status of these projects. I urge IFI to retrieve the situation in the interests of fairness by publicly renewing its commitment to the Ballina salmon life centre and addressing outstanding issues of support, management and running costs with all the stakeholders who have already put so much into the project.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Fergus O'Dowd)

I thank Deputy Mulherin for raising this matter. I have discussed it with her on a previous occasion and I am aware, therefore, of its importance to her and to the people of Ballina. Her key question relates to what is going to happen with regard to the commitments that have been made in respect of the town. I intend to contact the chief executive of Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, following this debate and arrange a meeting regarding all the issues the Deputy has raised. It is also my intention to attend that meeting, when it is held, in the company of the Deputy in order that we might obtain clarity in respect of the actual position.

IFI owns and operates a fish hatchery which is located in the centre of Cong, County Mayo. It is carrying out a review of hatchery operations generally with a view to rationalising its operations and improving their efficiency and cost-effectiveness. The primary focus of the proposal is business efficiency centred on rationalisation of the hatchery function and examining the feasibility of using existing capacity at Cong to yield efficiencies and cost savings in line with the Government's reform agenda. In developing these plans for its core business, IFI is keenly aware of the established educational potential of the Cong hatchery. In that regard and as a small component of the operational review, IFI has examined the possibility of expanding the visitor capacity within the existing facilities at Cong to further develop the policy of allowing limited school tours and facilitating experience and promotion of the inland fisheries resources, specifically brown trout, the rare ferox trout unique to the Cong area, and salmon. The resource and angling can be promoted and experienced by the public on an IFI existing site in an established visitor town with relatively modest investment.

The existing hatchery in Cong has been in operation for many years. It was initially located in the old mill building and latterly its has operated as a rearing station. No significant material change is envisioned for scientific operational purposes for the site. It is expected that alterations may be required in terms of providing safe and suitable access, viewing and sanitary facilities, etc., for visitors. This is a working hatchery which is fully staffed and adjacent to some of the most prolific fisheries in the country, namely, the River Cong and the famous Lough Corrib, which is renowned for its wild brown trout fishing.

Cong is a vital link in the life cycle of the rare ferox trout, a separate species which originates in the waters around the town and which has existed in Lough Corrib since the ice ages. The value of promoting knowledge and understanding of this peerless species alone, on the back of a small investment in an overall business plan, is inestimable. IFI is also cognisant and supportive of the existing proposal for the development of a salmon life centre in Ballina. The feasibility study in respect of this proposed development was undertaken by Tourism Development International and was completed back in November 2008. IFI's commitment to Ballina is not in doubt and the importance of the River Moy to the salmon species and to inland fisheries is well recognised in the context of the investment by IFI of more than €1 million in the restoration and development of the iconic salmon weir in the centre of the town. I understand that this proposal was for a greenfield site and could be a very significant investment should the estimated €6 million to build the facility or, as the Deputy states, to make it shovel ready be secured. The salmon life centre would involve a joint development initiative which includes Mayo County Council, Ballina Town Council, IFI - in its role as the successor to the North Western Regional Fisheries Board - and Fáilte Ireland. The modest proposals for Cong in no way duplicate, replicate or usurp the much more involved and financially ambitious proposals relating to Ballina, which is famous for its salmon. Cong is famous for its unique and ancient species of trout.

I again emphasise that this is a relatively minor element in the IFI operational proposals, which are based on seeking value for public funds in respect of one of its principal functions as the State agency responsible for the protection, development and management of wild fisheries. The long-term viability of the existing facility in Cong - as a working facility - is a priority and its development for ancillary activity is a modest but worthwhile by-product of a drive towards economic rationalisation.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

I thank the Minister of State. I am disappointed that IFI did not consider it necessary to discuss this proposition with the stakeholders in Ballina. There is a need to further tease out the issues, including those relating to costs. The headline in The Western People referred to plans to develop a €2 million interpretative centre, but IFI has not provided any details in respect of its plans. From what the Minister of State outlined, I accept there may just be a difference in scale in the context of the projects for Ballina and Cong. If improvements are needed at the facility in Cong, I welcome the fact they will be proceeded with, but the people of Ballina have invested a great deal of effort in respect of the salmon life centre project. As recently as last year, some of those involved with the project travelled to Norway to carry out research. We have both a site and planning permission and there is a need for IFI to engage with us to resolve the issues relating to Ballina. There was never any suggestion that IFI was going to be obliged to pay for the building of the centre in Ballina. The real issue relates to the management and running costs that will arise when the construction phase is completed. Such costs would obviously arise in respect of any project.

There are questions which remain unanswered and it might be better, as the Minister of State suggests, for these to be teased out further with IFI. I would welcome it if he would ensure the meeting he intends to arrange will involve input from all the stakeholders in order that we might get to the bottom of this matter once and for all. I would also welcome it if IFI renewed its commitment to Ballina and if some positive developments were forthcoming.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I thank the Deputy for her comments. I will ensure that details on the costings relating to the design of the project at Cong will be made available to her as soon as possible. I will also ensure the proposed meeting will take place in the near future and that the stakeholders to whom she refers will be involved. I look forward to that meeting being held, hopefully in the next week or so.

Post Office Network

Deputy Willie Penrose

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this topic for discussion, because it is important to people throughout the country, especially those in rural areas. Prior to Christmas, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, in the company of Mr. Christoph Mueller at the GPO, announced the renewal of the contract relating to the delivery of cash payment services to customers in receipt of social welfare. Said contract is worth €50 million per annum to An Post and it will obviously secure the position of sub-post offices throughout the country. The contract is for two years initially but can be renewed. Obviously, however, we must ensure the need to sustain post offices is recognised.

The programme for Government contains a specific commitment in respect of ensuring the sustainability of the post office network, which is a national and strategic asset. Commitments are easy to write and verbalise and they can easily morph into aspirations. To put flesh on the bones of the commitment to which I refer, there is a need for the Government to produce a comprehensive plan of action in respect of this matter. A whole-of-Government approach will be required in this regard, with each Department being obliged to have an input or make a submission. When this process is complete, the Government would formulate a cohesive plan of action and produce a report within six months or so. This matter cannot be placed on the long finger. A report must be produced, action must be taken and results delivered. All Departments should be obliged to identify new business opportunities they intend to pursue or existing businesses with which they are involved, the services relating to which could easily be provided by means of the post office network.

As a Deputy who represents a rural constituency, I have called for many years for the provision of a new banking service for people throughout the country. We are all aware of the many bank branches and sub-branches throughout the country - including in Westmeath and Longford - that have been closed. This has had a hugely negative impact on rural areas. The Government should examine the possibility of providing a banking service through the post office network and operated by An Post. Those who run An Post need to wake up and smell the coffee and be creative and forward thinking. They must rise to the challenge, and rather than always announcing the closure of post offices, they should seek to install electronic funds transfer facilities at all their 1,150 outlets. An Post offers a range of savings products on behalf of the State, via the NTMA. These products are very attractive in the context of encouraging people to save money. However, An Post must expand its operations and provide current account facilities, either on its own behalf or on behalf of certain of the banks. Some post offices provide such facilities but there are huge opportunities in the context of providing services on behalf of Departments, semi-State bodies and local authorities.

Such areas should be considered with an open mind. A very great volume of business is available by means of online marketing and sales. An Post could play a key role in developing capacity to capture this niche market opportunity and be a delivery agent for same. The Government in conjunction with An Post should invest significant capital in these developments in the context of economic and social policy. The two policies cannot be divorced. Social policy is very important and it is very difficult to quantify it on a balance sheet. This is the problem with straight-line economics, quantification and cost-benefit analysis which are unable to capture and encompass the very important aspect of social policy. It discounts social policy and that is the big failing. The post office network has approximately 1,150 post offices available to carry out this work and with a high level of contact with the public. It provides services to 1.7 million people each week, including 800,000 social welfare customers. It is also an important focal point for public interaction.

Last March, the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications prepared a detailed and comprehensive report on promoting the sustainable future for the post office network. It represents a very good starting point for the production of a Government-led plan. The committee made a number of key recommendations which I support and I reiterate here. People have a genuine affection for the post office and the service it provides. Very often it is the main point of contact for people who live in rural isolation in particular. It plays a central role in the lives of people across rural and urban areas which explains why this is such an important issue. I urge the Minister of State to go back to the Minister to ensure that a plan is provided to tackle this problem once and for all.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

On behalf of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, I wish to reassure the Deputy it is Government policy that An Post remains a strong and viable company, in a position to provide a high quality, nationwide postal service and to maintain a nationwide customer-focused network of post offices. Operational matters and the role of developing commercial strategies for the post office network are matters for the management and board of An Post and not ones in which the Minister has a statutory function. However, the Minister has a strong concern about the ongoing commercial position of the company and he regularly liaises with the company in this regard.

I refer to a plan for the future sustainability of the post office network. The Minister welcomed last year's report of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications on promoting a sustainable future for the post office network which he found both positive and ambitious. The Minister agrees with the thrust of that report which looked at the configuration of the post office network, the importance of Government contracts and suggestions for extra business for post offices. The pivotal financial and social role of the post office in local communities was acknowledged. The desirability of channelling more Government business through the network is an issue which is often raised. However, any such developments would need to be in compliance with EU procurement obligations and this aspect was acknowledged by the committee in its report.

An Post has many strengths and has the largest retail presence in the country. The Minister has impressed on the company the need to further exploit its unique position in this regard. He has been supportive of its attempts to diversify its income streams and to win a wider range of commercial contracts offering higher margins. In the context of the public sector transformation agenda, the Minister will continue to engage with his colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, in consideration, as appropriate, of the post office network for transactional elements of the business of Departments and agencies. He has stressed to his Government colleagues that the network is ideally configured for over-the-counter transactions. Any such developments would need to be subject to public procurement requirements as appropriate. Having invested in the computerisation of all post offices, the post office network is well positioned to become the front office provider of choice for Government and the financial services sector. Overall, the Minister sees a strong future for the network by using its existing strengths to remain a significant player in the delivery of a wide range of services on a nationwide basis.

Deputy Willie Penrose

The Irish Postmasters' Union commissioned a comprehensive report prepared by Grant Thornton. The report outlined in detail the possibility of expanding the range of services provided by An Post post office network. It set out a compelling case for the new services contracts as identified. An Post has the capacity to facilitate additional services. The recommendation from the joint committee was that the post office network could assume responsibility for the processing of motor tax renewals and hospital charges as well as water charges, property tax, business rates, rents and other Government payments services and the potential of the post office network to deliver a basic payment account as part of the financial inclusion strategy. I ask if there is some innate opposition at Government level. All Ministers, when asked, are wholeheartedly committed to ensuring the viability of the post office network so where is the problem?

There is an opportunity to make greater use of the post office network and we should set about seizing these opportunities. An Post has to be proactive and I acknowledge it has diversified into partnerships with AIB, One Direct and Aviva Insurance. The post office also facilitates payment of the property tax. It faces a challenge in the face of the significant decrease in letter and parcel post and the threat from electronic communications such as e-mails and texts. All the relevant Departments must recognise the social aspect of the post office network and this must be embedded as a core objective. The Departments should co-operate in the preparation of a comprehensive plan in conjunction with the board of An Post. I acknowledge the independence of the board and the need to comply with public procurement regulations. The Government should set about this work and report within six months. This would be a vital signal to the post office workers and the sub-post offices in rural Ireland because they feel threatened by the likes of letters from the Department of Social Protection indicating that payments for jobseeker's allowance and pre-retirement allowances will be lodged directly to bank or building society accounts. This is a silly policy. Clients should have the option of using a post office. I ask the Minister for Social Protection to ensure this option is available. Things wither and die if they are not used. This bureaucratic decision will mean that the post office may not have an opportunity to continue doing such business and continue to survive.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I thank Deputy Penrose for his views and I assure him that I will bring them to the Minister. In 2012, revenue earned from Government business amounted to over €179 million, consisting of mails income at €50 million; election and referendum, €4 million; Department of Social Protection, €59 million; NTMA, €54 million; television and dog licences, €12 million; and other revenue, €0.8 million. As Deputy Penrose mentioned, there have been significant arrangements between An Post and AIB, and with Aviva, as well as the facilitation of payment of the property tax. Following a competitive tender process, An Post has been selected by the Department of Social Protection as the provider of over-the-counter cash services for social welfare customers. Deputy Penrose has made very valuable points in his contribution. He pointed out the social and community importance of retaining the post office network and the strong bond that exists between the post office and its customers, in particular, older people. An Post has many strengths and it is the largest retail presence in the country. The Minister will continue to impress on the company the need to further exploit its unique position in this regard.

Sitting suspended at 2.30 p.m and resumed at 2.35 p.m.

Hospital Closures

Deputy Peter Mathews

The petition for liquidation of Mount Carmel Hospital was ex parte. It was one-sided and it was by NAMA. There were two statements which resulted in the decision. One was that it was hopelessly insolvent while the other was that the 2013 results showed a disastrous trading year. However, this is not true because from October 2013 onwards, there had been a big turnaround as a result of increasing bed occupancy with the HSE relieving the problem by bringing in patients on the waiting lists. Some 2,300 patients were going to be decanted gradually into Mount Carmel Hospital for hospitalisation and after-care treatment.

There were two bids for the hospital to NAMA. One of them collapsed while the other one was for €14 million, €10 million of which would go to the creditors, including the Revenue Commissioners which had agreed to take its portion of that €10 million, and €4 million of which would go to NAMA. However, NAMA did not want the €4 million but wanted €6 million. For €2 million, the following is now the prospect. The VAT and PAYE for 328 employees amounts to approximately €7 million per year while jobseeker's benefit paid to the same number of staff would be €4 million per year, which is a total of €11 million per year. The redundancy payment from the Social Insurance Fund would be €8 million but that is a once-off payment. Contrast the €2 million extra NAMA sought with the €19 million lost to the public purse in year one, with €11 million per year thereafter. This begs the question as to what in God's name NAMA is doing.

There are 130 beds in Mount Carmel Hospital. Some 25 beds are for maternity, with 12 for mothers and 13 for babies, while there are 105 non-maternity beds. The figures do not stack up. The staff costs for the hospital are between 70% and 80% of turnover, which was €29 million. That means that 10% savings in one year would have been €2.3 million, which would have more than counterbalanced the €1 million lost in the last trading year.

It is a bad mistake to close this hospital.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I would like to read a letter I received from an employee. It states:

I work at Mount Carmel Hospital and I am obviously devastated by the decision to close the hospital, make my job redundant and send me and the rest of the staff of 300 people to join the dole.

However, I am also astounded at the lack of interest that appears to have been shown towards us and the hospital.

On the one hand, I do understand that to some it is just another business, a private hospital supported by NAMA and effectively owned by people who have less interest in the hospital than its potential for property development.

On the other hand, I cannot understand why nobody who might claim to have an interest in the social and political implications, let alone the economics of delivering on a commitment to a mix of private and public health care resources, seems to be doing anything to intervene.

Mount Carmel had a turnover of €29m last year and an accounting loss of about €1.05m.

With cost-saving measures in place this year, the hospital was on target to deliver a break-even result in 2014, with the possibility of making a small profit.

If the issue is debt, closure looks like an action driven by a short-sighted focus on immediate finance and a short-term view of where and how money is and should be invested in health care.

In the absence of the kind of engagement and discussion that is devoted to other enterprises, it appears to be facilitated by an ability to 'wash our hands' of what this means for the future of the staff, the patients and the longer-term public interest.

Earlier this week the minister was speaking about the reduction in public waiting lists. Mount Carmel treated many of these patients last year and was preparing to treat 1,200 more in the first few months of this year. These patients will now go back on to public waiting lists.

Mount Carmel is also currently caring for sick and elderly public patients who were being kept on trolleys in public hospitals. Some of those patients were transferred to Mount Carmel after their operations in the public system.

These patients will now be transferred back to the public hospitals to be 'cared for' on trolleys in A&E.

As a country we bail out banks and we prop up loss making five-star hotels and golf clubs, and get exercised about some quite superficial concerns in the political and social arenas, yet allowing a fully functional hospital to close does not appear to be an issue worthy of the attention of anyone with the wit or will to help or care.

There were offers on the table for NAMA to consider up to last Thursday, two of which were apparently turned down by NAMA, who decided along with Gerry Conlon to go to the High Court and have a liquidator appointed.

Surely it is in the public interest to sell the hospital as a going concern rather than fund redundancy and social welfare payments to over 300 staff.

This letter is signed "Regards, Fiona".

Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly)

The closure of Mount Carmel Hospital has left its patients in an uncertain situation. As the Deputies have said, it will result in job losses. As a doctor and as Minister for Health, my primary concern must be the provision of quality care to patients. The HSE is continuing to work with the hospital to ensure patients' choices are respected, their immediate needs are met and there is a seamless transfer to another hospital. As a Minister, I am disappointed at the loss of jobs in Mount Carmel Hospital. I recognise that this is a difficult time for the staff. We will endeavour to support staff in their efforts to secure alternative employment. I have been informed by the HSE that an active process in that regard is ongoing as we speak. Many workers in the hospital have particular expertise that is highly sought after in the public system.

As the House will be aware, following receipt of correspondence, a high-level examination was undertaken to assess the feasibility of the purchase of the hospital by the State as a going concern, taking account of the impact its closure might have on maternity service capacity. All evidence shows that birth rates have fallen significantly in recent years. According to the projections of the Central Statistics Office, they will continue to fall until the early 2020s, at least. In view of this evidence, the purchase of Mount Carmel Hospital could not be justified on the basis of a perceived deficit in maternity services capacity. We believe that any available funding would be more appropriately used to resource our current maternity services to ensure they can cope with any additional demand. As I announced in May of last year, it is intended to move the National Maternity Hospital from Holles Street and to co-locate it on the St. Vincent's University Hospital campus. This project, together with the development of the new maternity hospital that is to be tri-located on the St. James's Hospital campus, will give us an opportunity to provide additional capacity in the longer term if required.

The Deputies will be aware that one of my priorities as Minister for Health is the development of excellence in patient care and safety, thereby leading to better outcomes. It is recognised that for optimal clinical outcomes, maternity services should be co-located with adult acute services, and in the case of neonatology and foetal medicine should be tri-located with adult and paediatric services. There should also be a high volume of patient throughput in accordance with international norms. A low-volume, stand-alone maternity hospital such as Mount Carmel Hospital does not allow for this.

Mount Carmel Hospital provides other inpatient services apart from maternity services. As others have said, during 2013 the HSE secured additional treatment capacity as necessary in Mount Carmel Hospital, as well as in other public and private hospitals. It is important to note that the projected number of treatments outsourced in these facilities represents less than 1% of the total number of annual scheduled outpatients appointments and less than 0.5% of the total number of inpatient and day-case appointments undertaken nationally. The HSE will continue to avail of the support and services offered by other public and private facilities where capacity is required and available.

As I have said, I am committed to improving patient safety and outcomes across all areas of the health service. In this regard and with particular reference to maternity services, my Department is developing a new national maternity strategy which will determine the future model of services to ensure women have access to safe high-quality maternity care. This strategy will reflect the best available evidence to ensure all pregnant women can make appropriate and informed choices and can access the right level of care and support 24 hours a day. Arrangements are being made with alternative hospitals to ensure as seamless a transition as possible for the patients of Mount Carmel Hospital in accordance with their choices. All inpatients who are currently in the hospital will continue to receive all necessary and appropriate care until they are discharged.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I acknowledge and respect what the Minister has said. The bottom line is that this decision was made by NAMA after an offer of €14 million was received. I am reliably informed that €10 million would have been used to pay off the creditors and the remainder would have been available to meet NAMA's €6 million test. That means there is a differential of €2 million. As I have explained, there will be a loss of €19 million to the public purse in the first year following the closure of Mount Carmel Hospital, when factors such as the loss of jobs and staff are taken into account. Therefore, the net cost to the State of the decision not to proceed in this manner - all of the other aspects of this issue that have been mentioned also need to be considered - will be €17 million. That is not on.

We need to hear the figures. NAMA needs to come in. I wanted a NAMA response to this Topical Issue matter rather than a medical response. The hospital's beds are being used to look after 2,300 patients on the waiting list. Some 1,100 public patients have been treated at the hospital already, thereby taking them off the waiting list. A further 1,200 patients are in the course of being treated and addressed, thereby taking them off the waiting list and relieving the pressure on trolleys. There were 309 people on trolleys in Dublin last Monday. Much of this pressure could be relieved. Thirteen or so geriatric patients with cognitive difficulties, who went into Mount Carmel Hospital a few weeks ago, have been shunted out again. The turnaround at the hospital had started before this decision was made. The financial documents show that it would have more than broken even in 2014. NAMA needs to explain this bad decision.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I agree with Deputy Mathews that NAMA should be answering questions on this issue.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Yes.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I mean no disrespect to the Minister when I say that. I do not doubt his commitment to the retention of as many of this country's medical facilities as possible. When one reads the NAMA business plan, one must compare the manner in which it is allowing this wonderful facility to be closed with the manner in which it consistently shovels money into golf courses and five-star luxury hotels, thereby undermining and undercutting private family-owned hotels. I would like the Minister, even at this late stage, to consider what Deputy Mathews and others have said about the net cost to the State of the closure of the hospital when factors like social welfare payments and the loss of revenue are taken into account.

Deputy Peter Mathews

We are talking about €11 million a year.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

It defies logic. I can understand that the Minister is considering the matter in the context of his individual budget. A little creativity on the part of NAMA and the State, based on an examination of the net cost of the closure of the hospital, would assist this hospital to trade its way out of its difficulties.

Deputy Peter Mathews

It could do so.

Deputy James Reilly

I accept the Deputies understand this is a NAMA decision to close what it regards as a loss-making entity it was unprepared to support further. I have discussed the matter with the Minister for Finance who made it clear to me that had it continued trading it would be guilty of reckless trading.

Deputy Peter Mathews

That is impossible.

Deputy James Reilly

Notwithstanding what Deputy Kelleher has said about NAMA's activities, that agency showed a profit last year.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

That is all the more reason it should have funded it.

Deputy James Reilly

NAMA has been very co-operative in helping coherence in Government. In other words, when we were considering the National Maternity Hospital moving to St. Vincent's University Hospital, we looked at the buildings that had been built for a private hospital and other purposes - it may not quite have been for a private hospital, but that was one of the possibilities. However, IDA Ireland had another multinational client and we backed away. IDA Ireland was very successful through Mr. Barry O'Leary, whom I congratulate on his retirement, in securing more jobs for that part of Dublin. We will now build a new co-located hospital for the National Maternity Hospital there.

While it is sad to see Mount Carmel close, in 2004 there were 16 private-hospital bodies and today there are 22. There is always this movement within a sector as needs and demands change. I do not have full and intimate detail of all that transpired there once it was bought by a developer and the debts that might have accrued. However, I certainly know that the Department and the HSE undertook an extensive appraisal of how that hospital might represent value to the health system and clearly came to the decision that it was not in the best interests of the health services to acquire it as a going concern, as I made clear in my opening remarks.

We need to ensure that the patients attending there are looked after in a seamless fashion with the minimum distress. We need to do our best to help to relocate the many excellent staff, as we would not like to see their special skill sets lost.

The Dáil adjourned at 2.50 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 February 2014.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 30 Jan 2014