Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 2014

Vol. 830 No. 2

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 7a, motion re membership of committees and No. 20, statements on the recent flooding. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 7a shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 20 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case and Members may share their time, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply, which shall not exceed ten minutes; and Private Members' business shall be No. 135, motion regarding child care (resumed) to conclude at 9 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.

Tomorrow's business, following Oral Questions, shall be No. 8, ESB (Electronic Communications Networks) Bill 2013 - motion to instruct the committee; No. 21, ESB (Electronic Communications Networks) Bill 2013 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 2, Public Health (Sunbeds) Bill 2013 - Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed that the proceedings in relation to the motion to instruct the committee shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons of Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 7a agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 tomorrow agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Section 80(5) of the Garda Síochána Act states: "The Ombudsman Commission may make any other reports that it considers appropriate for drawing to the Minister's attention matters that have come to its notice and that, in its opinion, should, because of their gravity or other exceptional circumstances, be the subject of a special report to the Minister." The Taoiseach is on the record as saying that section 80(5) of the Garda Síochána Act "requires" that GSOC would report unusual matters or matters of exceptional importance to the Minister for Justice and Equality and that this was the fundamental issue which GSOC needed to explain to the Minister. People would like the record to be clear. Does the Taoiseach accept that the Act does not place any such obligation on GSOC and that he was wrong in saying that the Garda Síochána Act "requires" GSOC to report to the Minister? Will the Taoiseach correct the record?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy. That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

In the context of a question I put to the Taoiseach yesterday in regard to the setting aside of time for a debate on the financial model for Irish Water, I asked if people would know well in advance of the local elections what they are likely to be charged for water and the Taoiseach's response was that they would. The Taoiseach did not, perhaps, realise at that time that the regulator would appear before a committee and say something different, namely, that he expected to receive a report on water charges in June and would not be in a position until August to let people know how much they will be charged. There is an urgent need for somebody to clarify the record, be that the record of this House in respect of Leaders' Questions yesterday or the record of the committee. From what the Taoiseach said this morning, it now appears householders will not know before the local elections what they are likely to be charged for water. The Taoiseach was very assertive yesterday, which assertiveness I welcome-----

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I think it is in order to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We have had Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am not going through the issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is like a second Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The record of this House in terms of a question I put to the Taoiseach yesterday during Leaders' Questions states one thing and the record of a committee meeting yesterday in respect of the response from the regulator on the same matter states something different. I am asking the Taoiseach to clear that up and if, as agreed by him yesterday, time will be set aside to debate this issue. Will the Taoiseach confirm once and for all whether households will know their likely water bills prior to the local elections? That is an important point.

The Taoiseach

The answer to the Deputy's question is "No". How can I know the water usage of individual households?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach said "Yes" yesterday.

The Taoiseach

Let us be clear - what I said was-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Government knows about €2 billion in savings but cannot quantify them.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not having a debate on this issue.

The Taoiseach

We are not having the runaway train about which Deputy Cowen spoke before.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It is a runaway train that the Government will not quantify the €2 billion in savings it has admitted to having.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, quiet please.

The Taoiseach

When I say that householders will know the charge that will apply to them, I mean the average charge that will apply.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please. This is not in order on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

I find it truly extraordinary that Deputy Martin as the leader of Fianna Fáil would come in here and ask that individual charges be made known before the local elections.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach said yesterday that people would know that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Taoiseach said it would be known.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

I made it very clear that the charge-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Would you stay quiet, please?

The Taoiseach

-----that will be known by people is the average charge based on the subvention being given by Government. The bill for the charges will apply from January. They will be used from September onwards. Deputy Martin is asking me to tell him before the local elections what charge will apply to him.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If the financial model was produced earlier, the regulator could come in before June.

The Taoiseach

I am telling the Deputy. He does not want to accept this.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Taoiseach. This is the Order of Business and we are not discussing that anymore.

The Taoiseach

The average charge per household will be known before the local elections-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did not use the word "average" yesterday.

The Taoiseach

-----because the subvention determines that average charge. The regulator was correct in what he said at the committee meeting. The policy issue can only be decided by Government. This will be known and published before the local elections.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Get on with it then.

The Taoiseach

I dealt with the other matter raised by the Deputy earlier this morning.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did not.

The Taoiseach

I did. I also dealt with it before I came into the House. The position is that the wording is as the Deputy says but there is a provision in the law whereby these matters can be reported to the Minister for Justice.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does the Taoiseach accept he was wrong?

The Taoiseach

The GSOC has said it regrets that it did not report the matter to the Minister.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does the Taoiseach accept that he was wrong in what he said?

The Taoiseach

I said that-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach said that the Act "requires" that GSOC report the matter to the Minister.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach said the GSOC broke the law.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please respect Deputy McDonald. She is on her feet.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is the Ceann Comhairle's responsibility to ensure that the record of the House is set straight.

An Ceann Comhairle

You too, Deputy Dooley. Deputy McDonald is on-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

On a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not make a point of order. He will sit down or leave the House.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The lady is on her feet.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach has been given two opportunities to correct the record of the Dáil. I now invite him for a third time to do so. The clear implication of what he has said and restated in respect of GSOC is that it was not in compliance with the law. That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, we have just dealt with that issue.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is important that the Taoiseach avails of the opportunity to make that clear.

An Ceann Comhairle

He will not do it on the Order of Business. This is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

When will the Taoiseach do it then?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach will need to do it at some stage. I do not know what his game is but it is not helpful to GSOC to insinuate and repeatedly state it acted outside the law.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy would you get on with your-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I hope the Taoiseach will avail of that opportunity. We have had the legislation read to us and we know what the law says. We now need clarification on the Taoiseach's position.

On the consumer protection and competition Bill, the Taoiseach will be aware that the succession of stealth charges introduced by this Government have placed middle and low income families under huge pressure. The introduction of water charges will undoubtedly add to this burden. Reports in this morning's media indicate that owing to the failure of the previous Government to deal with our not fit for purpose water system, we are now faced with a €10 billion repair bill. Does the Government intend including in the consumer protection and competition Bill a provision to allow the amalgamated National Consumer Agency and Competition Authority to play a statutory role in protecting the interests and welfare of hard pressed consumers on whom water charges will be imposed?

The recently enacted Public Services Management (Recruitment and Appointment) (Amendment) Act 2013 provides for the Minister Expenditure and Reform to regulate for sick leave across the public service. There is a requirement for regulations in respect of this matter to be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. I am anxious to know when those regulations will be laid before us.

The Taoiseach

I will come back to Deputy McDonald from the point of view of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, in respect of the regulations to be laid. The consumer protection and competition Bill is well advanced and will be published in this session. We will have an opportunity to debate the matter fully.

For the third time, I accept that the wording of the legislation in respect of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission does not require GSOC to report to the Minister but the provision in the law means the commission may report to the Minister. I have said to the Deputy's party leader, if she had listened, that if my words were excessive in their meaning, then I regret that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They were not excessive, they were wrong.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan, please.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Deputy Martin was never wrong, was he?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I would admit it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan, do you want to speak or not?

Deputy Terence Flanagan

Yes, thank you.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then ask your question, on the Order of Business, please.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about two issues under promised legislation. The first relates to the local property tax and the commitment made by the Government on 12 March last year that 80% of the property tax would be ring-fenced in the local authority area where the revenue was generated.

An Ceann Comhairle

What legislation are you talking about?

Deputy Terence Flanagan

Will the Taoiseach indicate when the legislation will be introduced to put into effect that commitment? The second issue relates to the fact that this is the 33rd anniversary of the Stardust tragedy in Artane. Will the Taoiseach meet the Stardust victims committee given the new evidence that has come to light?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on the Order of Business. There is a Topical Issue debate on the matter later.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

By doing so, the Taoiseach could help to bring closure to this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on the Order of Business. Table a parliamentary question on all these things. Is there promised legislation?

The Taoiseach

The promised legislation has gone through. People will elect councillors this year. Those councillors will have a direct impact in respect of the property charge, commercial rates, parking charges and so on as they relate to towns and main streets throughout the country.

I understand a new inquiry is being followed through by the Garda in respect of the survivors of the Stardust tragedy. My advice before was that if there was new evidence, it should be produced. Obviously, the Garda will conduct an inquiry into whatever that new evidence is.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a Topical Issue debate on the matter later.

Deputy Peter Mathews

On Friday last, the German Constitutional Court decided that to save the bond market, the European Central Bank-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second. Where are we going now? We are not dealing with the German Bundestag at this stage on the Order of Business.

Deputy Peter Mathews

We are, and I will tell you why.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, we are not. I happen to be in the Chair. You happen to be on your feet and you have to stick to Standing Orders as they relate to the Order of Business.

Deputy Peter Mathews

A vast amount of legislation going through the Houses at the moment derives from this territory.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know that.

Deputy Peter Mathews

To ignore it would be stupid.

An Ceann Comhairle

Table a parliamentary question. That is not for the Order of Business.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The Taoiseach was in Davos less than three weeks ago where Ken Rogoff, an internationally regarded economics professor-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, would you respect the Chair, please? You are totally out of order.

Deputy Peter Mathews

-----said that a debt write-down for Ireland would be the right thing for Europe to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, you are not going to start quoting from Davos. Thank you. I call Deputy McLellan.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Now, the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany is saying that the ECB is being prohibited from doing what it has been doing since Mr. Draghi instructed in 2012.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, would you resume your seat please?

Deputy Peter Mathews

In other words, the outright monetary transactions are illegal. This is a major mess.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please sit down and resume your seat. I call Deputy McLellan. Thank you.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Fair play to Deputy Kelleher.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Will the insurance Bill take into account the current situation-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Durkan, do you mind? Deputy McLellan is on her feet. Please show some manners. Thank you.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

My apologies, a Cheann Comhairle.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not some town hall discussion we are having. This is the Parliament and we are doing business here.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If we cannot discuss things that are far more central, then what is the use?

An Ceann Comhairle

Do it under Standing Orders or else change them.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Small and medium-sized enterprises have €60 billion in debt and €25 billion, which according to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McLellan, would you please proceed and just ignore them?

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Will the insurance Bill take into account the current situation of those residing on flood plains who cannot get insurance? Will these households be included in the insurance Bill when it comes before the House?

The Taoiseach

We do not have a date for publication of that Bill, but I want Deputy McLellan to understand that the Government considered this matter yesterday arising out of the difficulties that many businesses and households are having. A memorandum was produced during the time of the previous Government which made several recommendations. It is important we engage with the insurance industry and that we will do. I cannot give Deputy McLellan the outcome of those discussions yet but we are conscious of what has occurred.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Will the Taoiseach inform the House exactly when we will have a housing Bill to address the crisis evident throughout the country, specifically referred to by Deputy Durkan in respect of Kildare but which is evident in other counties as well? I got a call last week from my housing officer in Offaly. He asked me not to proceed with any more representations in respect of housing because he had neither the time, energy, resources or commitment from Government to address the crisis.

The Taoiseach

The housing Bill will be this session.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I have heard that before.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Cowen will hear it again. It will be this session, that is, this session.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

My question relates to the Central Bank consolidation legislation. When are we going to have the banks brought in? Ulster Bank is shedding a further 1,000 jobs and is closing branches. When will that be dealt with?

When will we see the judicial council Bill? When will we see some sense made of what is happening in respect of families who are being terrorised by the actions of the courts?

The Taoiseach

The judicial council Bill will be this session. The bank Bill to which the Deputy referred is due next year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is too late.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

When the Land Commission was disbanded, no authority was put in charge of the infrastructure for which it had been responsible. This has led to much of the damage done by the recent high tides and floods. Are there proposals under the local government provisions Bill to take over the network formerly taken care of by the Land Commission?

An Ceann Comhairle

When is this Bill due? We cannot discuss the content.

The Taoiseach

I am not sure what Deputy Healy-Rae's question is.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is the Bill due? What Bill is it?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is the local government provisions Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is the local government Bill due?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

As they going to take over the network formerly taken care of by the Land Commission?

The Taoiseach

The Local Government Reform Act was completed and dealt with last month.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

The housing (miscellaneous provisions) Bill was to extend and strengthen the regulatory framework for social housing, including a statutory underpinning for the new scheme of housing assistance payments, the repossession of local authority dwellings and to provide for a new tenant purchase scheme for existing local authority houses along incremental purchase lines.

The problem I have at the moment is-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You have no problem, only to ask when the legislation is due. Thank you.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Many families come into my constituency office-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We do not deal with problems on the Order of Business, personal or otherwise.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Many families have come into my constituency office. The major problem they have is that they cannot get their names off the deeds of their houses.

An Ceann Comhairle

You were not listening to me. What Bill are you talking about?

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

This means they are not entitled put their names down for social housing. What I am asking is-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, will you resume your seat? Thank you.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Will you resume your seat? Do you hear me? This is not an opportunity to make speeches. It is simply to ask about when legislation is due. There is no need to be going through a whole speech on it. Many other Deputies are waiting.

The Taoiseach

As I indicated, the housing Bill is listed for this session. Furthermore, following Deputy Durkan's request, there will be statements on housing to allow Deputies to give the circumstances that apply in their constituencies.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Martin should note that the leader is a great adviser.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Taoiseach for the information on the housing Bill and I support my colleague in that regard.

The cost of criminal legal aid has been an issue of concern in the country. It was even a concern when the current Opposition was in government. When will the criminal justice (legal aid) Bill come before the House? Have the heads been cleared? Will it be in the House at an early date?

An issue that has cost this country dearly in the past and which we will recall with some interest is the activity of lobbyists over the years.

An Ceann Comhairle

What Bill are you talking about?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It led to considerable difficulty for many people inside and outside this House. When will the regulation of lobbying Bill come before the House? To what extent have the heads been cleared by the Government?

The Taoiseach

The heads of the criminal justice (legal aid) Bill were cleared back in 2010. It is scheduled at the moment for early next year. The heads of the regulation of lobbying Bill were cleared last week and it will be published this session.

Deputy James Bannon

There is an urgent need to improve the safety, quality and reliability of our road network-----

An Ceann Comhairle

That is grand. To which Bill is the Deputy referring?

Deputy James Bannon

-----particularly through the midlands.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no Bill through the midlands. What is the name of the Bill?

Deputy James Bannon

There is a bottleneck between Mullingar and Longford because the motorway was never completed. When will the road traffic Bill be introduced? The travelling public needs a wider choice.

I also refer to the road transport Bill. Last weekend, the Taoiseach visited the midlands and turned the sod for Jazz Pharmaceuticals in Athlone-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

Deputy James Bannon

-----and a director of the company pointed out how important good connectivity is to the midlands. There is a motorway between Dublin and Galway but the motorway has not been completed between Dublin and Sligo and this is a problem for the north midlands.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question. I call the Taoiseach to answer the questions on the Bills.

The Taoiseach

The traffic and transport Bills are scheduled for early next year.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is not the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. He does not deal with the content of legislation.

Deputy Dara Calleary

He does not micro-manage.

Deputy Dan Neville

The mediation Bill, an important Bill in the reform of the criminal justice system, has been promised for some time. When will it be introduced?

The Taoiseach

Later this year but it will not be introduced this session.

Deputy Brian Walsh

There is a commitment in the programme for Government to introduce legislation to provide for the electronic tagging of sex offenders and other violent offenders. The Minister for Justice and Equality indicated last year that he was working on the Bill. When can we expect it? Will it provide for measures to electronically tag sex offenders? I refer to the case in Athlone last year which highlighted the need for this.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of legislation.

The Taoiseach

This will be tagged on to the DNA Bill. I will inform the Deputy about the exact procedure.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach said in an earlier reply to Deputy McDonald that his interpretation of the relevant section of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 was excessive.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not going there again.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Clearly it was wrong. Can he just say it was wrong? In fairness to GSOC, will he admit that his interpretation was wrong?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can table a substantive motion, which is in accordance with Standing Orders.

The Taoiseach

Incorrect.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It has taken about two and a half hours to get to "incorrect".

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The British Government is planning to introduce a levy on foreign heavy goods vehicles crossing its borders. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has indicated in recent days that he is contemplating introducing similar legislation to levy international vehicles entering the State. Has the Taoiseach an update on that? I refer to the impact the proposed British levy will have on vehicles-----

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a separate issue

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

-----travelling between Donegal and Dublin.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Will the Taoiseach engage with the British Government to arrange exemptions for through roads in the Border area to ensure trade is not disproportionately affected?

The Taoiseach

No Bill is promised in this regard but the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport will bring any recommendations he has to Government. I will inform the Deputy of the current position and whether work is ongoing on that.

Deputy Ray Butler

When will the adoption (tracing and information) Bill be published? It will provide for an information and tracing service on a statutory basis through which applicants can seek information about adoptions. We all watched Philomena Lee on the "The Late Late Show" and how heart wrenching it was.

The Taoiseach

The Bill is complicated constitutionally and the Minister expects that it will be published this year. We hope we can adhere to that. However, it is a complicated Bill.

Deputy Frank Feighan

There is a great deal of concern among small businesses regarding the lack of equity and transparency in commercial rates. When will the Valuation (Amendment) Bill 2012 be brought before the House? It provides for self-assessment by occupiers of valuations of certain premises.

The Taoiseach

The Bill is on Committee Stage in the Seanad. I expect it to progress before Easter.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I refer to the schools enrolment Bill and, in particular, my concerns about a lack of openness and equity across the system where fees and the date of application determine the position of pupils on waiting lists for enrolment. This leads to cherry-picking in some cases.

The Taoiseach

I will have to advise the Deputy on the current position. I know the Minister has made some recommendations but I will get back to the Deputy.