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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 2014

Vol. 835 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

The morning began with the announcement by Commissioner Martin Callinan that he was resigning from his post. I noted that with regret. He is a man who gave a lifelong commitment to An Garda Síochána and gave distinguished service. That should be acknowledged in this House. It is a very sad reflection on how the Government has handled this entire series of crises in the administration of justice that things have come to this pass. Commissioner Callinan played a role in bringing a number of significant criminals to account.

It is regrettable that things have come to this pass. The Taoiseach briefed the leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy Gerry Adams, and I on yet another emerging situation that goes to the very heart of the administration of justice and would appear to strike another blow at the administration of justice in this country. It relates to tape recordings of conversations in police stations around the country. As the Taoiseach's statement indicated, one of the matters is before the courts and we are not in a position to make further comment on the specific case. The latest case follows a range of other issues such as the bugging of the office of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, the undermining of whistleblowers in connection with the penalty points saga, the refusal to respond positively to the recommendations of the Road Safety Authority in that regard and likewise to the recommendations in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the matter. Central to the entire saga was the status of whistleblowers and how they are treated by the Government. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, in particular, has consistently and with persistence sought to undermine the status of the Garda whistleblowers in the context of the penalty points saga - so much so that he came into Leinster House and said on the record that they did not co-operate with the O'Mahoney inquiry. That was a false statement and the Minister should withdraw it.

The Deputy cannot make accusations of that nature. If he wishes he may do so by way of substantive motion.

I am sorry. It was an incorrect statement and a wrong statement and the Minister should withdraw it. He should apologise to the Garda whistleblowers. On 12 March when Bryan Dobson put a question to him on the RTE news programme "Six One" as to whether the whistleblower should be put back on the PULSE system-----

Thank you, Deputy.

-----he compounded the hurt inflicted on these men when he said it was a very serious issue when a member - implying Mr. McCabe - was "liberally accessing confidential information on the PULSE system and distributing it to the general public". Mr. McCabe never did that, yet he stands accused by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, on "Six One", of having done it. He stands accused of non-co-operation on the record of this House. I put it to the Taoiseach that this is wrong. Has he spoken to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, about this? Has he asked him to unequivocally correct the record of the House and to apologise to the whistleblowers concerned for his remarks both on the record of the House and outside of the House, the import of which was to undermine them, their credibility and their character? He should withdraw his comments, and the Taoiseach, as Leader, should follow the example of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, and seek a withdrawal of those remarks and an apology from the Minister.

Would the Deputy mind? He is not on Leaders' Questions yet-----

He was here a while ago. He disappeared.

-----but he might be there some day if he takes his time.

A Deputy

God forbid.

First of all, I would like to put on the record my appreciation of the 41 years of service given by the Commissioner, Martin Callinan, to the service of the community and the public as a member of An Garda Síochána. It must have been a very difficult decision for the Commissioner to announce his retirement. During those 41 years Commissioner Callinan dealt with very serious issues to do with the safety of this State and the safety of citizens in dealing with members of subversive organisations and serious criminals. I thank him for his service to the Irish State.

With regard to the matter I brought to the Deputy's attention and that of Deputy Adams, the Government made a number of decisions arising from that - in accepting the retirement of the Commissioner; in the appointment of the assistant commissioner as an interim Commissioner; in making arrangements for filling the post as a permanent position through an open competition; in the establishment, with terms of reference to follow, of a commission of investigation into the issue of tape recordings in many Garda stations since the 1980s and the potential impact of the contents of some of those tapes in respect of cases being heard, cases going through the courts, cases to be followed or maybe cases that were already dealt with; and in committing the Government to establishing an independent authority for the Garda Síochána that is appropriate for the needs of this country while maintaining political accountability to the Oireachtas. These are decisions that were made this morning by the Government.

We have already decided in regard to the report of the inspectorate into penalty points. There will be statements and questions and answers this Thursday for all Members, led and finished by the Minister for Justice and Equality. The Minister has recognised the value of the information provided by the whistleblowers in bringing this to public attention. He has also said that many of the other allegations that were made have not yet been corroborated. I have dealt with that myself on a number of occasions.

The answer to Deputy Martin's question is that the Minister for Justice and Equality will deal with this matter on Thursday when he addresses the response to the penalty points issue in the report provided by the Garda inspectorate.

That is not an adequate response. I asked what the Taoiseach is going to do about it. Has he spoken to the Minister for Justice and Equality and has he asked him to correct the record? Last week the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, was very forthright and frank in his assessment of the situation. First of all he said that the whistleblowers' contribution to this was "distinguished", which was in sharp contrast to the position of the Minister, Deputy Shatter. The Tánaiste said he should withdraw his remarks yesterday. Other Ministers - Deputies Quinn, Rabbitte, Burton and Coveney - are all in the same vein in terms of what should happen here. What has the Taoiseach done? The only two Ministers who have stood with him in trying to protect the Minister, Deputy Shatter and uphold the status quo have been Deputies Hogan and Reilly, trusted lieutenants that they are. What the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has done is unacceptable. His position is untenable. One cannot do as he did, coming into this House to undermine the character and reputation of individuals whom other Ministers see as having made a distinguished contribution. There is no getting out this without some straight talking and some straight answers. Did the Taoiseach talk to the Minister, Deputy Shatter? Did he tell him he should correct the record of the House and particularly the record outside the House as well? What he said on "Six One" was wrong. It was factually incorrect and further compounded what he said in this House. Is the Taoiseach of the view that his position is still tenable? Is he of the view that he does not have to apologise for what he said and that he should not withdraw his remarks made in the House about the whistleblowers?

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has proven to be probably the most reforming Minister for Justice in the past 15 years-----

There is no confidence in him.

-----and so many issues of societal consequence that have been left lying around have been, are and will be dealt with by him as Minister for Justice and Equality.

A Deputy

Hear, hear.

He would want to reform himself for a start.

Have I spoken to the Minister for Justice and Equality? The answer to Deputy Martin's question is "Yes," and the Minister will deal with this on Thursday.

Before I call Deputy Adams, I want to put on the record that the Chair has ruled on many occasions that allegations of a serious nature against an office holder can be made only by substantive motion in the House and not by innuendo or otherwise across the floor of the House. I want that to be clearly understood. People have their rights here. A substantive motion can be tabled and debate can take place. Would the Members please respect the ongoing rulings of the Chair?

While Commissioner Callinan has undoubtedly done the State some service, his decision to resign was the right one because his position had become untenable. I had prepared a series of Leaders' Questions for the Taoiseach which included a call for him to set up a Garda authority, similar to that in the North, a position which Sinn Féin has long advocated. I had argued, as we have done consistently, that the appointment of a new Garda Commissioner would be a good place to start, with a new dispensation in policing similar to the one in the North, and I was going to ask the Taoiseach to commit today to the establishment of the type of policing dispensation which would suit this century and suit this State. I was also going to ask the Taoiseach to seek the resignation of the Minister for Justice and Equality, but before I could do so, the Taoiseach sent for me and an Teachta Martin and told us of another developing scandal. I reflected between then and now that I needed to change my questions. We will wait and see what the Taoiseach makes of a new policing dispensation and we certainly try to keep him accountable on that, but really the Minister should go. At every turn he protected the Commissioner, he undermined GSOC and he discredited the Garda whistleblowers. Arguably, none of this would have come to light of those two brave officers had not highlighted what they saw as law breaking. Fine Gael generally and the Labour Party supported the Minister, but it was only when the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, spoke out that the Labour Ministers came out. It was almost a classic case of trying to find out where public opinion was. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to go?

"No" is the answer to the Deputy's question. The issue of an independent authority for the Garda Síochána is a matter on which both Fine Gael and the Labour Party jointly agreed as far back as 2006. I believe there is an opportunity here to deal with this for once and for all, and provide a professional, competent, efficient, modern, transparent and accountable police force, by having an independent authority. The two parties, as a Government, decided and committed to doing that. This will not be an authority in the same way as the Northern Ireland authority because, as Deputy Adams knows only too well, the issues of security and policing are separate in Northern Ireland.

In regard to the matters on which we made decisions this morning at Cabinet, if the House wishes there will be an opportunity for statements on it tomorrow. As I stated to Deputies Martin and Adams, as information relevant to the new issue which has arisen becomes available we will make it available to them also.

I remind Deputy Adams with regard to the area of justice and trust and public confidence in the system the situation as applied is not working properly. This is why the abolition of the confidential recipient has taken place. This is why the terms of reference are being examined by the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. It is why GSOC is doing a full presentation in respect of the penalty point issue. It is why Mr. Guerin SC is examining the question of the allegations brought to the attention of public representatives and given to me in the Dáil. It is why Mr. Justice Cooke is doing his report. All of these must come before the House, be debated in the House, published and made available to all Members of the House and the public. In this regard this is an opportunity to lead for a new authority which will bring the Garda Síochána right into the modern era where everybody can have absolute faith in the accountability, transparency, effectiveness, competence and professionalism of the Garda force so everybody understands the standards required and the standards which must be met. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate's report will be debated in the House on Thursday. The Minister for Justice and Equality will address it and will take questions and answers at the end.

I recounted earlier the Taoiseach sent for myself and Deputy Martin.

He did not send for the Technical Group.

On the way there a journalist told me the gist of the Taoiseach's statement, as I told him during our meeting. At the same time as we were told what was in the Taoiseach's statement the media were told what was in it. Why did the Taoiseach not come here? The Commissioner has resigned and this does not happen every day. The Taoiseach has revelations of a new scandal. It is a serious business. Should the first port of call not be here? Should this not be the place to discuss these matters? I have reminded the Taoiseach many times here that he assumed office on the promise of an entirely new way of doing politics. He had to be dragged on this issue towards the announcement on reform he made today. There is not one comma, full stop or iota of the Good Friday Agreement in any institution or agency or any protocols in this State. The people here deserve what the people of the North deserve, which is transparent accountability and a Minister with responsibility for justice who delivers it. The Minister for Justice and Equality should go. Will the Taoiseach not review what he stated earlier and do the decisive thing and ask the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to resign?

I have answered the question already. As I stated, Deputy Adams comes in here constantly and always wants information in advance of major issues in the Dáil. This is why I took the opportunity to brief him and Deputy Martin beforehand-----

And not the Technical Group.

I might point out to Deputy Adams-----

It was disgraceful; 16 Deputies were ignored.

The Garda press office, arising from the Commissioner's own decision, issued its statement at 12.17 p.m. today. I briefed Deputies Adams and Martin at 2:45 p.m. Do not come in and state the Government is running off to journalists. Sometimes the Government is running away from journalists.

That is becoming an increasing phenomenon all right I have noticed.

In any event on this particular account Deputy Adams is wrong.

It depends on which Minister of course.

You will be running away from the doors in a few weeks time.

The statement came from the Garda press office itself about the decision of the Commissioner to retire.

The Taoiseach should have made a statement here. That is my point.

That is why I briefed Deputies Adams and Martin at 2.45 p.m. in the knowledge they would ask a question about it, but Deputy Adams is not interested in what I told him. All he wants is another head on a plate. My information for Deputy Adams is the Minister for Justice and Equality, on behalf of the Government, will continue to reform the justice system and will work to introduce an independent statutory authority for An Garda Síochána-----

Turn off the bugs.

-----which will bring our system into the modern era where it is transparent, accountable, professional and competent and everybody in the country can have faith in it. This is why I thought it important, as leader of the Government, to bring the information given to me by the Attorney General at 6 p.m. on Sunday to the attention of the Members of the House, having checked the validity and veracity of the issues all day yesterday and all night last night. This is a very serious matter, which is why I offer the opportunity for statements tomorrow. As I stated earlier, the Garda Síochána Inspectorate's report is due to be debated and responded to on Thursday. The Minister for Justice and Equality will be here to answer questions on it.

Before I start my question I wish to tell the Taoiseach he has espoused and stated his Government is leading a democratic revolution, but I regard it as absolutely undemocratic he should have excluded representatives of the Technical Group-----

-----from the briefing he gave to other Members of the House earlier this afternoon. He chose to exclude one third of the Opposition and I certainly hope it will never happen again.

My question is on the crisis in the health service. The Government has cut more than €3 billion and 12,500 staff from the health services in recent years. In 2014 a minimum of €619 million and another 2,600 staff will be cut. This is having a catastrophic effect on our services and the resulting crisis is being played out at local level throughout the country. South Tipperary General Hospital is a prime example. It has suffered the loss of more than 20% of its budget, or €11 million, in recent years and more than 100 staff. At the same time hospital activity and patient numbers have increased significantly and the hospital operates on a daily basis at 120% capacity. The number of patients waiting on trolleys and chairs in the emergency department of the hospital is absolutely unacceptable and is reminiscent of Third World conditions. Since the Government came to power, this democratic revolution Government about which the Taoiseach spoke, the number of trolleys and chairs increased from 750 in 2011 to 3,100 in 2013. Over the past weekend patients waited for days for admission. A total of 19 patients were still there on Monday, including a gentleman who had been there since the previous Wednesday and a lady who had been there since Friday evening.

A question please.

This is an ongoing situation and the conditions are Third World. The staff simply cannot deal with the number of patients and are struggling to provide a decent and safe service. Will the Taoiseach apologise to patients and their families for the conditions they are being forced to endure in the emergency department? Will he immediately instruct the HSE to implement the proposal from the hospital and the HSE south-east to open additional beds at Our Lady's County Surgical Hospital in Cashel, step-down beds and additional beds in South Tipperary General Hospital and provide additional staff in the emergency department?

That is a good Second Stage speech but I suggest, given the list Deputy Healy mentioned, that he put questions directly to the Minister for Health in respect of the specifics.

I am asking the Taoiseach.

What about the Technical Group?

The Taoiseach is the leader of the Government and is responsible.

Stop shouting down.

I will certainly convey to the Minister for Health the issues Deputy Healy has mentioned. He gave a long list of ten or 15 issues-----

I asked about a single issue which is underfunding and overcrowding in the emergency department.

-----and I cannot recall them all in sequence.

Deputy, please.

When €16 billion was being spent on the health system almost 600 people were on trolleys in one day. I remind Deputy Healy despite the reductions in allocations for the health service front-line services have been maintained at the very highest level and I always pay tribute to those people working in the front-line services.

I disagree with the Deputy for stating that those who provide a service in his county are operating a Third World service.

No; the Government is forcing them to operate like that.

As Deputy Healy is well aware, they work long hours at the front line, and he should recognise that. The Government seeks to change the structure from one of a two-tier system that is inequitable, that is too costly-----

The number of trolleys has quadrupled.

The Deputy is shouting people down.

-----that is inefficient, that discriminates against people who do not have money in their back pockets and that denies access to-----

Go up to Beaumont hospital.

-----medical attention for people who need it and who do not have the financial facility to buy private health insurance. The Government seeks to move to a single-tier insurance where everyone can have the same level of treatment in respect of the treatment they need. That is the concept of universal health insurance and obviously part of that concerns the structure of primary care centres and the continued provision of sufficient allocations for front-line services to be delivered to people.

I will take the points raised by the Deputy and will see that the Minister for Health responds to the Deputy. However, it is not a case of going around the country apologising outside every hospital one sees. It is a case of serious changes being made, with hospital groups in different localities around the country with a better range of expertise and consultancy available to them and therefore providing a better service to everyone in each of those localities. That is the intention and, as the Deputy is well aware, it is not always easy to do it overnight.

The policies of the Government and the cuts it has introduced in the health services have quadrupled the number of trolleys and chairs in the emergency department at South Tipperary General Hospital, from 750 in the year the Taoiseach came into office to 3,100 at the end of 2013.

I invite the Taoiseach to visit South Tipperary General Hospital to see that absolutely excellent hospital and its excellent staff who are at their wits' end because of the cuts the Government has introduced. If only from the point of view of human decency, the Taoiseach should take action to solve this problem. There is no excuse not to deal with this problem, because the money is available. If one considers appendix 1 of the Health Service Executive's national service plan, one will note that a sum of €30 million has been set aside to "[t]arget additional capacity and capability in areas within acute services which continue to experience increased service demand, particularly in the areas of access across [emergency departments]". Consequently, the money is available.

A question please.

It is the Taoiseach's duty to make sure people have a decent health service of quality. I again ask him to visit the aforementioned hospital and, by instructing the Health Service Executive, to ensure the putting in place of additional beds at Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel, and South Tipperary General Hospital, as well as additional consultant, nursing, medical and support staff in the emergency department, because the policies of the Taoiseach and his Government have created a crisis within that department.

The Deputy first mentioned that South Tipperary General Hospital was an excellent hospital.

It absolutely is.

He mentioned that it had excellent staff, but repeated thrice in his earlier contribution-----

They are being blackguarded by the Taoiseach and the Government.

Sorry, hold on a second.

-----that it was a Third World facility.

They are being blackguarded by the Taoiseach and the Government.

He stated it was a Third World facility-----

Sorry, Deputy; do you mind?

-----but now the Deputy tells me it has excellent staff and is an excellent hospital, on which I agree with the Deputy. These are not Third World facilities. I remind Deputy Healy that despite a reduction of more than €3 billion since 2008-----

No privacy and totally inadequate toilet facilities.

The Deputy will not listen to anyone.

-----€3.2 million has been provided to deal with particular elements of patient safety in respect of cochlear implants, as well as almost €2 million for patient-centred improvements in maternity care, an additional €8.3 million for the cancer care services-----

That is not what I asked. The Taoiseach can read his notes forever but he should come to see the situation for himself.

-----€2.9 million for organ donation and €35 million extra for 60,000 medical cards.

Sorry, Deputy; do you mind?

A Cheann Comhairle, will he answer the question?

The Deputy comes into this Chamber and tells the people of south Tipperary that they live in Third World facilities.

That is not what he said.

He then tells me in his supplementary question that they have excellent facilities and excellent staff. Deputy Healy should get his facts right before he comes in to make the next case.

The Taoiseach is creating those conditions and the Government has no excuse because it has the money.

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